 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. The spat between the governor of Kerala and the elected government of Kerala has reached unprecedented proportions. The latest bone of contention is the vice-chancellors of 9 to 11 universities in the state. We have with us a special guest, Mr. Thomas Isaac, he's the former finance minister of Kerala and a senior CPM leader. He's going to try and tell us what really are the issues over here. Thank you for joining us, sir. Mr. Isaac, why is the university issue so important? Can you begin by telling us why there is this argumentation between the governor and the government over this? Well, the fight is not between the governor and the elected government of Kerala. It's between RSS and the elected government of Kerala. Virtually, RSS has captured or near-captured the vice-chancellors of almost all the public universities in India in various ways. Even JNU, everybody knows what has happened to it. In fact, the approach is scorched earth policy. They don't care what happens to the university, they think they can rebuild it later. They want to destroy the entire liberal edifice of India. So Kerala is one state with 12 universities. Well, they have no role whatsoever, you see, either no representation in syndicate, senate or any academic bodies. So this is something they can't accept. Therefore, they are using the agency of governor who happens to be by the law legislated by the Kerala assembly, the chancellor. So the chancellor has certain rights, but chancellor's rights have been defined by the law. So he has been making allegations and insinuations on the educational system, which are unwarranted. We ourselves are not very happy with the higher education Kerala, let me put it that way. Okay, there is a bill which has also been passed by the assembly. How will this bill sort of help counter the RSS, as you say, and sort of? Okay. Yes. We will come to education first later, I will refer into your question. So there is law of the university passed by the Kerala legislative assembly. There is UGC Act by government of India. Now there are also regulations of UGC, there are three sets of things. The Kerala assembly has said as such committee of three would make recommendation to the chancellor, which consists of chancellor's representative, government's representative, UGC representative. And it can be one or three. Candidates. The panel or if they are agreed upon one, they can give one, that is the Kerala law. Now the UGC Act says everything about everything else, but we do not mention anything about how appointments to the vice chancellor's should be done. But UGC now through its regulations has made it a fine number search committee, which has a more representation for UGC. So that virtually this committee can be manipulated to appoint an RSS or other. Kerala government would have only one representative. Normally if it is going by merit of the academic who is selected, it should not matter at all. That is right. So present practice India merit has the least, per se, it is political Hindutva allegeance that matters. And therefore, there is a possibility this would be used by the governor who is acting as chancellor. Now, this is a situation all posts were filled. Now something happened. The search committee consisting of only three, not five as per UGC regulation identified one person only, Rajasri doctor is a technical expert to be the vice chancellor of Kerala technical university. So she was appointed, she was working, but another person from Kuchin University academic filed a case in saying that UGC regulations say five and therefore the appointment in a land void. I called single bench, threw it out. Division bench also approved it saying that there is no breach in the procedure. But when to Supreme Court, the other judge said it is against the violation of central law. It is a concurrent subject. Therefore central law would prevail and therefore that selection is not null. As against this, there are very serious experts who argue there is no central law on how to appoint. It is only a regulation. Therefore Kerala High Court is right. There are some others who shows a subordinate legislation which is something executive order cannot be above the state government legislation. Parliament is above state government assembly, but how can a UGC, a creature through executive order overrule legislative power of a state assembly? This is the fundamental. This is going to be argued in Supreme Court. And there is a revision petition. Yeah, that is being filed. So now this person, but court order has ordered. So that is we will have to set, set, set, opt out. But the governor uses the opportunity to give a notice to all the otherwise chance rates in Kerala that you have asked for the Supreme Court of UGC or cannot, therefore you are asked to resign before 11.30 the next day, that is all, you see there is no application of mind, you do not keep time for a search for a discount, you do not talk with Kerala government. Though law does not say the chancellor can act needing, but that is another way the country is governed here. So just outrightly a move to appoint RSS nominees as far as chancellor's scale, I am putting you on the table. These are very eminent persons who are the, see that each one of them, they are very eminent scientists who have worked abroad, whose international publications, who are the vice chancellor of Kerala universities, none of them are CPM people, that is also a way to stress the CPM members or none of them, they are liberal. Some like Gopinath of Kanno University, he is a leftist, but he is not a CPM member. This masses approach to study of history is well known, that is an accepted thing. Governor was using this opportunity to capture the universities in Kerala for RSS, that started the trouble. So what happens now, what does the state government recommend these VCs do? So who gave him this power to the chancellor, we gave him, we legislated, we are going to change the legislature, we are going to make an ordinance and send it to him, that is what we are thinking, a political decision has to be made on this, but that is the way both CPM, CPA secretaries have announced and he may not sign it, ordinance. Then assembly will be called to pass this law, then now the governor's practices are now, even the assembly has passed a law, which is not against the constitution, which is against the liking, then they keep it indefinitely in their hands, that is happening in Tamil Nadu, he may do it here, they are going against the whole spirit of constitution is here. What is the kind of law or ordinance that you are planning which would help to tackle this issue that you face? There is a number of clauses where powers of governor is dealt with in the constitution, most important of which is 1631 versus there will be a council of ministries to advise him. So it is advising him. And then in Nesta clause, sub clause 1632, it says exceptional circumstances where governor can act on his own with discretion, so this, our Arif Khan is interpreting 1631 to mean that all the council is to assist him, he has the discretionary powers to do, which is not the spirit of Indian federal constitution, you see. In fact, Ambika in the constitution assembly has specifically said, I am quoting him from a memory, American president can dismiss his secretary, fully the secretary's appointment is a pressure of the president, but that is not the situation in India, nor with not only president but a governance of the state government, the titular heads, because constitution framework requires such a head. So except for these particular issues, like for example, whether they have majority, his discretionary power he has, but Supreme Khan has said majority must be tested in the assembly, but he has a discretionary thing. So and suppose the government has lost, the cabinet has lost majority and they make a recommendation, we can not follow that and ask for strength to be made, strength to be tested in the assembly, so yes this is 1632 gives this exceptional circumstances, but he is interpreting 1631 to say he has the power, so all constitutional aspects are pointed out, Supreme court in number of judgments are pointed out that the fact that there is 1632 defining exceptional circumstances where he can exercise his discretion, once such a clause is understood that other one he does not have other circumstances, this is special to this, so he is missing a term and so all of a sudden one morning he does a tweet, look at the way a government, a government elected by the people and the governor is appointed by the high committee, by the union government, he tweets, if any minister undermines the dignity of office of the governor, he may stand to lose my pleasure. So this is suddenly all of a sudden pleasure doctrine is brought into the whole debate under British common law. And apparently one particular minister has lost his way. Initially people did not understand, but everybody understood, he will say I will throw him out but because constitution says the ministers hold office under the pleasure, anybody appointed except few officers under the pressure of the government, then there are conditions for exercise of the pleasure. So here the condition is very clear, it is the property of the chief minister to say who should be in the cabinet and even chief minister gives an advice, the pressure is conditional to the advice of chief minister, so he is threatening it, a big controversy erupted etc. Then he seems to be making a linear view, the press has misinterpreted what I said etc. So then all of a sudden he says let now this finance minister, he has lost my pleasure, I want you to take appropriate action. So at least he understood, he cannot take an action, chief minister has to take an action. He has to took the action, replied to him, he has not lost my pleasure. So it is the pleasure of the chief minister, the pleasure of the governor. What is the meaning of all this? On 15th of November you have planned some kind of an agitation at various places, what is this about? So this is a political move, not ministry to even a thing. As I told you we see it in that line, it is an attempt made by BJP to capture the universities in Kerala, universities in Kerala and on masses to universities. You see I am an economist, we don't teach masses economics, macroeconomics, Keynesian, Milton Friedman and all these things. It is a liberal university system like rest of the country. But there are a lot of left up persuaded people in the academics, students, also also teachers, you see. Now BJP does not want that. BJP wants Hindu ideology to dominate the entire university system. How would it help them if that happens? See now immediately no, but RSS plans for long period, horizon is very long. I think these are new positions, things thought up because the moment NDA came to power, people have been at work trying to systematically making otherwise why should somebody start a fight over television institute in Pune? That has a very significant influence on the cultural making, Bollywood and everything and BJP wants that and see the way it has done. Look how all the central universities under the hands, the grip, JNU, but JNU, you know everybody knows what happened in the last three years. So it is one of the priority areas, they want influence of thinking. People still think in liberal terms, intelligentsia in India. India after independence, all the third world countries had most robust intelligentsia in the third world. It was so superior to the rest of the third world countries. They have run a day and so on in the 19th century thinking in terms of drain theory, third world positions, so intellectuals of that name and left academic journals like EPW and so on which are institutionalizes this approach. So they want to destroy that. So that is very important. And even in Kerala, our alternative is to preserve them as liberal bastions. Okay, we do not want to dominate. That is very consciously chosen why all this not leftist of masses but very accomplished academies to be the vice chancellor. So this is the challenge. Therefore it has to be met politically. It is a political issue. It is not, it is a political issue. And therefore we will be educated the people. And how do you educate the people? Give any mobilization to agitations. That is the time when they are very emotional, angry, then you tell them what is happening. So we have a program talked out to where mobilization is taking place in district, local level and finally on 15th to March to Rajbhavan. So people think are we going to capture Rajbhavan? Nothing. There are democratic rights to protest but we are protesting. But through the protest we want to mobilize the consciousness of the people of Kerala. About the university issue or the larger? The larger role of the governor or the governor as chancellor and we will pass the amend the law. And see primarily the people have got to be with you. See the politics in Kerala is dominated by congress and friend and left friend. So the first time left from the scum for a second consecutive term. Always normally it is not it. And BJP has a minor role. They got 12% votes and they are going down. From 16, 2016 election, 14 elections they had nearly 15, 16% vote. It has come down systematically 12. So now this mobilization creates also public opinion which will influence the hopefully thinking of UDF. Many some of the senior leaders including K.C. Venugobal the general secretary has condemned the governor. But they have not been so unique in Kerala. But in Kerala also Muslim League a part of the UDF has come out against the governor. So we hope that this mobilization also will be helpful when because it is not against UDF. It is against the central government. How can UDF opposite? So build a consensus on this. Try to build a consensus nationwide because other beyond BJP governments are also facing same issue. So our mobilization is political. What is the scope of conversation between the government representatives perhaps in the chief minister and the governor? No, it will be exhausted. We work in the federal framework. We don't need to see it from India. We are part of Indian Federation. And in the federal system these political differences come. And it was the even before your Sakarya Commission, your Pungi Commission and but unfortunately this first time in Indian history a party comes to power who professes does not believe in the diversity of India. That's first time it is happening. Therefore it is very difficult now. I think they have decided to do it with federalism in India. Everything in police which is a state subject, they want same uniform. So one nation, one uniform, then one whatever they want to do. So we have a different approach to policing. There are lot of different ways of policing but we want police to be friendly with people. So our Janamaitri police, let's say community police, a variety of community police community collaborates with the police for law and order and under the traffic and so on. We have student police cadets, several attempts to see, integrate organically the police law and order with the people themselves. Now they may not agree with all that. I don't know what is their thinking or ideal. But we have different opinions. So we are against this power but we will converse. Definitely we will talk. If anybody, the central government also will talk. Language issue is cropping up. We will talk to them. So we are not considering that the conversation possibilities are exhausted. But it is very difficult to talk to these people. Really. Alright. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for joining NewsClick. Do subscribe, do share our videos. You will find us on Facebook, on Twitter, on Instagram and of course you will find us interview on YouTube.