 All right everybody welcome welcome here to show 138 today Joined here with our special guest Stefan Kinsella. That's the second time Stefan's been on the show very very I think well read and well spoken educator on the subject of Liberty lawyer and also an expert in IP and the promise of Liberty if we if we would abolish IP In the world, so a lot of interesting things. I'm always interested to hear his take But today we're gonna talk primarily on the on the Ukraine war Which has been raging, you know for almost nine months So a lot of things to talk about with him seven. Thanks a lot for joining and welcome to the show Hey, glad to be here. Good to have you on this war is very divisive I think among classical liberals libertarians, you know, whether you live in Europe or You're a libertarian in the US you might fall on one side of the of this debate kind of kind of Automatically it seems, you know, I've noticed you on Twitter over the many months going back to February March kind of pushing back against that Sort of US is always wrong libertarians are so disillusioned with the US Empire It's obviously the US's fault that Ukraine is invaded this type of narrative still goes on today But it was really really strong in March April. I noticed To me you were standing out there in the in the Twitter space at least Pushing back against this any reason in particular why you Sort of support the freedom of Ukraine and supporting Ukraine against the Russian invasion I've always had a contrarian streak like I'm I'm pretty sure I'm willing to say something Despite the the peer pressure of other libertarians and they start they start going one direction. I'm going to If I have a different opinion, I'm gonna say it even though they're gonna give me shit about it, you know, I Mean look I've always been an anti-Kami. I hate communism. I hate Russia. I think it's horrible I don't like their culture. I don't like their anything about that whole Part of the world. Yeah, I had no illusions about you know, there's this Reagan-esque view of America and all this stuff however, you know, I Guess and plus I think it's partly because of my Interest in international law, which I also gave a talk at it the Hapa conference a couple years ago and I got a little flack from that too because you have this kind of Instinctual reaction of libertarians like They're almost like John Berger's, you know, like the UN is like the worst thing in the world and all this But to my mind the UN is like one of the least bad things out there because the United Nations has very little power it doesn't really have the power to tax and its primary function is A meeting place for the great powers to meet in the countries the nation states to meet and to solve disputes By conversation and discussion rather than war. So even though it's not perfect It's like better than the alternative and the idea of international law also is something that attracts me because it's like It international law because it's not legislated really by a super sovereign It sort of conforms more to the natural idea of you know coming up with good arguments for sort of natural law type norms So I've always I mean I know that their socialist Twist to it and you know the deck universal declaration of human rights and all this socialist stuff But overall I think it's it's something that appeals to me and so I'm also anti-war And so I think that one way to oppose war is to have international law respected and International law means number one you you you live up to your agreements and Russia did agree to Ukraine's borders after the fall of The USSR in 1991, right? So that's one thing and the other is Just international sovereignty not that I'm a I believe in states rights But I do think that if every state is seen as having a right Which and and that means that other states don't have the right under international law to invade them for no reason Then we would we could reduce war So what I think I think so what the commies have done with what the Russians have done is clearly illegal under international law They're clearly brutalist thugs and all this all this nonsense about all the Ukrainians or Who cares about the Ukrainians and they're they're neo-Nazis. It just seems like bullshit to me and and so on the other hand, I also personally don't think that The West and the US and NATO should be involved in all this My personal view is we should not be but But I also don't like let's say Hans Simon Hoppe gave a good talk An impassioned set of talks at the PFS this year, which are on our website now About Ukraine and all this now Hans's position. So you mentioned you're in Europe and you have this more Lithuanian this more Eastern European Approach to it more than the American libertarians, but there are some there are some like German type libertarians. I think that are like jealous or other or they're they're they're they're angry about the The the domination of their country by the US through NATO and through the aftermath of World War two And so that's what their focus is. So I listen to Hans's talk with interest because I don't quite agree with him on everything I mean, I agree with his basically his idea of a big sweep like you have to have a big a big picture here. I Don't agree that NATO is an aggressor I think that if you have a voluntary defensive union and other countries want to join it, you know, they're sovereign countries They have the right to do whatever the hell they want to do if Ukraine wants to join NATO And NATO wants us them to join then that's none of Russia's business in my view. I think Russia knows That NATO is not an actual aggressive threat. We would never actually invade the territory of Russia because of the nuclear Nuclear threat. So I think that's actually just nonsense. So that's sort of my take on it I do think that the I think I agree with Hans in the end. I think NATO should not be involved in this I think we should not be arming Ukraine. I think Ukraine should compromise. I Don't think that's a good thing. I just think it's it's probably the best way to avoid, you know, mass casualties And Russia is just a bully in the thug And that's my take on this I've notes already written down. I've notes from what you just said I think we can cover a lot of ground here from that that intro. That's that's great First thing maybe just to keep it very very simple again back to the sort of let's say central and eastern European view of the world and Yes, for anyone who knows their history, we're never going back to the Soviet Union We never want to be we never wanted to be a part of the Soviet Union We're never gonna let Ukraine back fall back into the Soviet Union. So that's one thing But say our view contrasted with you know a libertarian classical liberal Don't tread on me. I understand it Texas libertarian view of someone in the United States Here's the interesting line of Thinking which I don't understand and and it prompted me what you said in your intro comments here is basically my view is You can be very much anti Bush anti Cheney anti Iraq Afghan invasion Which the US did with no one by their side in the early? 2000s after 9-11 except for Great Britain Tony Blair the prime minister of the United States We had no one by our side Internationally so clearly that was the violation of international law. You can be against that and also be against Putin's kleptocratic megalomaniacal invasion of Ukraine in 2022 to me those are completely consistent moral ideological views in the year 2022 Yet somehow US libertarians in particular don't seem to see it that way. Yeah, I think that's right Now to his credit like Hans Hopper in his talk He you know, he he admits that Putin's a thug and all he's not defending Putin He just sees the bigger the bigger danger to his home country Germany and Europe is NATO and the alliance and US domination So he's focusing on the big picture and I can't really argue with that But I think that American libertarians, especially the anti war guys. They're so fixated on war is their only issue that They're almost willing to Turn a blind eye towards the nature of the reality of the situation like Putin's thuggishness and you know the actual invasion The aggression that's happening with this invasion because they're afraid if they admit what's really happening that they're buying into Okay, then we have to you know, the West has to get involved and defend Ukraine So like they're afraid to admit the truth So they end up distorting the truth and downplaying things that are playing to everyone like Russia's thuggishness and The horror that is this war and the murder that's happened I mean people's lives are being destroyed by the by the millions. I would imagine in in Ukraine. I mean this horrible Yeah, so if you demonize them as neo-nazis and all this it helps to assuage it and say, oh Russia's just defending their Traditionally Russian people and Ukraine was never a nation all this complete bullshit I think they're just coming up with arguments that sound like what Putin would say Just to avoid war because like that's our main goal and I agree with them. We should avoid war But you know, you can have a reasonable balance in the middle. You can say listen, we're going to identify Uh, the actual aggressor here, which is Russia It doesn't mean Ukraine's an angel Right and the US doesn't have to give support or the west but but um So I think you can have a middle ground you can you can you know if you're an anarchist you can you can Oppose all types of states. Yeah, exactly. Let me ask you one about the nuclear question not necessarily You know what Putin may or may not do that that narrative changes every day As people who have been following this and I know a lot of Americans do not even want to follow this because it's uh You know out of sight out of mind kind of thing Uh, he's was making threats now. He says he's never made threats. This just goes back and forth but a more philosophical general question about nukes and you may not have an answer for this but you know, so say nukes and the state right like no one likes nukes, but the state Invented nukes, you know, now the state is like the caretaker of nukes Russia obviously has The largest nuclear stockpile in the world. How do we reconcile this all of this with with free market theory? I mean, is there a free market de nuclearization program? Well, okay, so a couple things people say Russia has the largest stockpile, but given russian technology It might not work. We have to assume half of them won't work. So Yeah, true. True. Which is not really a good thing. I mean, it makes it more dangerous in a sense. Um I mean There's a like as a counterpoint to the to the hopper talk There's a guy sam harris. So I don't like a lot because he's really a mainstreamer and he's really annoying But he had this guy timothy snider on recently one of his recent episodes episode 301 I sent you the link it's on making sense And he he knows a lot about the history of all this and He he makes a pretty good point that That um About the risk of nuclear war like like you could be increasing the risk of nuclear war by giving into his nuclear blackmail Right like right now. Um, yeah Because it will embolden him and all that. I mean I used to be terrified of the prospect of a nuclear world, which is obviously where we're heading some day But you know, if you think about it, it's kind of impressive that the u.s. Has been able to Um get its uh, you know, it's it's it's vassal states like japan and germany Not to not to have nukes In canada, etc under the under the promise that we're gonna protect them with our umbrella When I think it's becoming pretty clear that you know if russia did somehow attack I don't know germany or japan or china attack japan Or taiwan. I don't think the u.s. Would actually use nukes to respond So and that's that's going to become apparent at some point Which means that like south korea and japan And germany and canada You know, they can instantly go nuclear because they're they're very rich high tech, you know industrialized countries And I think that they will and I you know So but let's imagine that ukraine had never given up their nukes after after the fall of the ussr Yeah, put a passion on random. Yes. So let's imagine every country has nukes even the backwards ones, you know Um, it's going to be a more dangerous world in a way, but maybe a world with no war I don't know No, the problem is when people can print nukes in their basement with a 3d printers That that's going to be the problem because there's muslims out there that you know, they will they will use that and and crazy terrorists um, but Uh For a certain point in time. I think that But I think that's where we're heading but you know, the right now The us has dominated and so haunz is right. Hapa is right that germany and europe have been dominated by the um This hegemony of the us and our nuclear umbrella and nato um And but but my view like russia I don't think rush is really threatened by nato rush is threatened by the fact that You know, they basically have an authoritarian state and people Are living in a quasi slave state and you know, they're embarrassed by by their Puny status now. They used to be a world power now They're just like, you know a thug thugocracy with with with nukes There's a lot of libertarians that want to like live forever and maybe we'll become cyborgs in the uh Certain sci-fi sense, but I'm not sure we'll get there in in our lifetime So it might not be something we have to worry about but like in the long long distance future if we if we want to Philosophize about this I don't know if you just compare nukes to like gun ownership and that sort of thing as far as you know, how We all defend ourselves and how the state doesn't grow too big or If we can sort of in the near future and stop arguing arguing amongst ourselves among these like sort of petty points like I don't know how the free market necessarily handles nuclear weapons. It's a strange It's a strange thing. Unfortunately, the state gave it to us. The state gave it to us and now We have it. I tend to think that you know technology Comes about when its time has come right different. So I think nuclear weapons and nuclear power Um would have come about at a certain point in human development even without states behind it. Um So the question is what we you know, so if you imagine in a future peaceful Prosperous integral capital of society What would be the status of nukes? um I don't think they would be flat flat out outlawed because I think there are peaceful uses of nukes, you know Blowing up asteroids or whatever mining um, or even some some defensive purposes, but um, anyway, the point is once knowledge is there you can't outlaw it really um Could you imagine sort of but but I do think that like yeah, you could imagine like neighborhood associations, covenants, regions with agreements like Look, you can't live here unless you have insurance And you can't get insurance unless you Pledge not to have nuclear bombs in your basement, right because you're too much of a risk for your insurer to handle So I I do think that there would be a tendency for these things to be rare and especially the world of prosperity and peace and commerce I don't A future like if we're really imagining a future world of rationality and like this utopian dream May you know May maybe there will be Very little conflict and so it just wouldn't come up the problem is in a in a peaceful docile society The temptation for that one guy on the edge to become the marauder, you know If everyone leaves their doors unlocked, you know, eventually one of the guys is going to say I can just walk around and steal steal things from people's refrigerators because they don't lock their doors like if all you need is one defector So economically speaking, I think there will always be crime because If we have very little crime Our defenses will be lowered And then that will give an increased incentive to the people on the very very edge in the margin to treat But on the other on the other hand, maybe in such a rich future society, we won't care Yeah, okay, some guys stole my banana. I don't care. I've got another banana, you know And by the same token, maybe crime won't be necessary I mean, why do you steal to get things that you don't own? But if we have a super abundant society where charity can take care of things and You know, so it's hard to imagine this future free energy. Maybe free energy Everything. Yeah, right if we can do coal fusion someday, right? Yeah, that's enough. I think on the nuclear question It's not nothing obviously we'll solve on this podcast, but it's I agree with you and I think it is overblown at least at this point I hope I hope we're Correct in that but um, well one more thing I guess this general on the we can get back to ukraine But general on sort of the development of the state or the diminution of the state in the future Based on the patern philosophy I believe you may not be a huge fan of him, but I find some of his YouTube debates interesting But one thing that David Friedman has said was basically that what his father said was He thought anarcho capitalism probably wouldn't work But it might and he likes to say David Friedman likes to say that anarcho capitalism probably would work But it might not and then his sort of addendum is you know, we never could be completely sure if that anarcho capitalist society Might decide to just form another state Amongst themselves and I do think that's an interesting way to put it I mean we might never know and maybe we'll just never get there anyway But yeah, actually Rothbard has a interesting quote about this. He says something like Okay. Well one criticism of anarchy is that If you ever achieve it, it's just going to eventually Devolve into another state Well, that's a weird criticism. It's like saying well You shouldn't try to have something better because it won't last forever or something like that Was that Friedman's criticism of Rothbard? It's just a menarchist. I think it's a menarchist criticism of anarchy like that. It's not stable But where Rothbard said, you know, if we do this at least You can you can google this at least we will have had a glorious holiday Like a temporary reprieve from the state, you know Yeah, but but to me it's like this is this is the problem with these these The people that criticize they're basically status because they want a system. They want a plan and they they're saying, okay Here's our plan because we're just a type of status. We don't want to call ourselves status, but we're just, you know, even menarchists They're all status. They just you know, there's there's democrats. There's fascists. There's there's totalitarians. There's theocrats There's commies And and we're minimal staters. Okay, whatever. So we have a system What's your anarchist plan? Right? And they want us to have a plan So that's why they always demand these questions of it. They say well If we get if we get rid of the Federal Reserve, um, or if we get rid of a welfare What's it gonna be like? What's it gonna be if we get rid of government schools? Can you guarantee that every kid's gonna have an education blah blah blah? So that they have this mentality of we have to have a plan and you have to stand behind it and Make promises which by the way the promises never You know, even the people that promise social security They can't guarantee that social security is going to be there In 30 years when our kids are, you know, absolutely ready You can't promise anything you can't guarantee anything But they want you to so if you say so if you take this moderate libertarian approach like oh, well Um, we shouldn't have welfare and we should have government schools We should have private schools and charity And then the instant response from the status-minded person is well Can you guarantee that there's going to be enough private charity to handle all the poor? So they want to guarantee In other words, they're never going to give up on their idea of a government solution, right? So it's like a false dilemma. Yep. Yep. Okay Let's get back then to Ukraine a little bit or more the question of like security borders It's actually interesting in light of what you're talking about about anarcho-capitalist theory versus say everything else Like I I look around the world in 2022. I have troubles myself, you know Of philosophizing about these things when like you said, you know, just Ukrainians in my view are basically dying for the rest of the free world because of A kleptocratic Dictatorial regime that does not follow the rules simply does not follow the rules. So Here's my question Um, and you mentioned hapa. I definitely will link to these pfs speeches that you mentioned I have a question about him regarding the state and borders and security and private property Today when we're not in sort of this future anarcho-capitalist world my understanding is Does he not conclude that um as we have governments sort of today in the modern world that They are the best way to enforce border security And hence some sort of property of the state I mean, isn't that his his one of his conclusions of just sort of practicality of Are you talking about like immigration? What do you mean? I guess immigration might be the way that he's framed it, but I would Relate the russian invasion to the same thing I mean, we're talking about borders and border security and who would defend the borders All right, if you were invaded Let's get to the question of whether the united states should help or western europe should help next But just generally philosophically isn't it true that he he does have a sort of a I don't know if it's a concession, but it's just a view that basically yeah in the modern world today We're gonna have to have someone defend the borders and that's gonna have to be the state I'm trying to think um And I may be wrong. I thought that was a kind of a common one, but it could be but I'm not I'm not immediately aware of it and it may be it's something he's written or said that I haven't That I don't remember but uh I don't think that's the right way to characterize his view. Okay. Well, let me let me just Interrupting because if that I thought that was actually kind of at least my view I thought that was like Kind of a comment like I remember a paper. I'll try to find it I remember a paper between walter block and someone else refuting happa on this point where block was Very much open borders, you know, there's plenty of land for everybody Open it all up and happa was not of that view and they were criticizing him his works I'll try to find it. I can talk about his immigration views, but As were a general thing, um, I I it just doesn't ring a bell to me Okay, let's keep it back to generally as you think of it as you view security borders An aggressive nation is attacking you clearly in 2022 we can We can be of the mind that you're gonna have to have A state and if you want to ask another state for help like that's not anti Human or that's not anti. Uh, well, yeah, especially because not not every country is the united states, right? I mean, uh American so one unfortunate thing I think is that The libertarian movement sort of basically originated here in the u.s. And so a lot of libertarian stuff you read is from the american perspective and You know, americans say crazy things like oh, we should be energy independent and all this stuff it's like well, I mean like actually maybe we could be but Most countries are going to be Small and they need to trade with other people and no one's totally independent I mean we live in a world trade order so um And so by the same token, I think you could you can imagine no, you know, not every country is the world's superpower that has nuclear weapons and a big navy and you know Can dominate the world like like the u.s. Does I mean basically no one can except one country So the norm is for what every other country faces. They have to make alliances. They have to Have packs. They have to have treaties. They have to cooperate. You know, they have to trade So I think there's clearly nothing libertarian unlibertarian whatsoever with countries Allying together in these alliances. It seems quite simple to me and but that's that's really what you battle And again, I'm not on a huge crusade here But um, you know, I've talked about it a little bit there are prominent libertarians in the u.s. That um that have been Sort of touting this line that it's you know, again, whether it's complete just disillusionment with the u.s. Federal government, which I understand I certainly understand it as a libertarian But if you're talking about the reality of the situation of people dying there's five million ukrainians that have been Alleged to be deported deported against their will to russia. Well, what's the population of ukraine? 40 40 million. What do you think that the us and nato should be doing? I'm curious if we go back to 2014 I'll give you the long answer. Okay, I'm gonna give you the long answer. Let's respond if you go back to 2014 and even in the earlier days like in georgia in 2008 After those that were paying attention when uh when russia went in Russia has always been aggressive in this in this part of the world centrally soon europe and obviously in the baltics here My father's from families from latvia originally So whether it's the baltistania latvia latwania poland specifically suffered horribly timothy snider as he mentioned written great books on poland And ukraine and all the I mean, you know bloodlands people should read it. That's a very simple Expose on the whole situation like we know An aggressive neighbor and one was nazi germany the other was soviet russia So that's obviously the stage That's that's where we are looking at this coming at this from but if you talk about sort of kind of the past 10 15 years Let's just you know, keep it local libertarian stuff So I was telling american libertarian friends like it is not a good thing when Say even ron paul the great ron paul gets on rt to talk about classical liberalism Now, I think that looks pretty good in hindsight But at the time even someone like romp and there were plenty right obviously there was adam kokesh You know stuff in malin you there was a lot of a lot of people were on there They would argue all these people would argue that getting on a wide reaching platform You know as a pain cable subscription news service rt in the early 2010s To talk about Liberty was a great thing like any form you could do is a great thing and even the great ron paul was doing it And we're like screaming here from eastern europe like this is The worst thing you can be doing you don't understand that you're in the throes of russian npr just bashing the united states And those that already grew with you are going to agree with you those that might be on the fence They may become sort of mad January 6th, or like obviously I wasn't predicting those things, but that was a clear let's say problem from a a clear status Disinfos sort of campaign that unfortunately libertarians were part of so just from that as a as a micro level That was something that was already a problem. And then come 2014 It was almost like They had they had prepped for it like russia had Allowed the west to see that. Oh really, you know, ukraine is just like sort of a non-existent country They've had these issues, but you know kramia was always part of russia, which isn't true at all um, you know 600 years of ottoman rule before the russians and there were an autonomous State for the first half of the soviet union. It's actually an autonomous area before it was, you know khrushchev gifted it to ukraine all of these things that just Everybody just fell on complete deaf ears Yes, and so that goes into that in that interview with harris a lot of which I never knew about but it was illuminated Yeah, I mean you had the genuins you had jews. You had I mean there was Crimean, you know, it's it's it happens in ports, right? It was a free port like it happened in, you know, singapore Hong Kong these places had no resources just barren rocks and once you open it up for trade great things can happen Unfortunately russia Didn't allow that with with crime. Yeah, right? That's just that they wanted it for themselves And that was that was that so when that happened in 2014 we were again saying this just falls on deaf ears we were calling about the budapest memorandum all of these things and The west took no action. So rather than the standard libertarian view of We caused this we were nato encroachment all this stuff, which is again another non-sequit I mean nato again, so I know I'm going on a lot of different topics here, but I think it's it's always relevant when Gorbachev was promised by regan In the 1980s the not one inch the baker quote that had nothing to do about nato that all that was doing was talking about The reunification of germany, which was the front and center political view of the day with helmet coal and with gorbachev and chevron nazi the Soviet foreign minister when they were all in these rooms talking with baker That was any pre-free era of russia that was still in the soviet era like the worst The Warsaw pact was on the soviet union was on these things existed like no one of course nato Wouldn't have been on the table as gorbachev said in 2014 like It wasn't even discussed talking about nato because the Warsaw pact, which was like poland You know, hungary Czechoslovakia all these countries still existed as as a soviet Vassal states and that's just the world that it was so yeah, sorry. You wanted to say something Well, let's just say like from international law perspective You have these libertarians saying oh, well The u.s. Promised not to extend nato and they went back on their promise so rushes Justifiably grieved that's complete. It's complete bullshit. I mean I mean first of all, these are these are actually superpowers. These are big countries. They have lawyers They they know how they know they can hire experts to negotiate their agreements, you know, they Know when they have a treaty when they when they don't and they didn't have a treaty you can't just say Oh, well, george busch said it Yeah, it was mentioned in the meeting minutes of this. That's not how it works. I mean these are big boys And and there there was this is a complete nonsense And it yeah, go ahead. Sorry. I get too excited. Go ahead the libertarians who are so anti-war And they become so anti-us so anti-israel Um a little suspiciously I might add. I mean a little too anti-israel, you know, it's like, okay I know they're not perfect, but I mean if you lived over there, where would you want to live, you know? So I just think that they're they're so desperate to avoid war That they just will demonize what they see as the big player the us and and no matter what and you know, it's not always our fault Even though we have a horrible central state that has caused lots of problems It's not always america's fault great point. Totally agree with you and um, I just I will argue with anybody Till I'm blue in the face like that had nothing even Gorbachev in 2014 Reiterated this he was never promised anything and anyway, like you said, there was no treaty. Nothing was ever written down It was not a that's not even an oral promise There was And anyway, it could not have been like the soviet union was on yes, the Baltics were agitating for independence already in 89 But that statement was in early 1990 the soviet union didn't add until 1991 There was no place for NATO expand. It was never even a question It's a made-up history that is thrown around just so erroneously. So anyway, that's another thing So all that I guess is laying the groundwork to answer your question about what would I have done First of all, I would absolutely agree with you that the united states does Unfortunately play too big of a role in european politics and that's a problem Hans Hermann Hoppe I believe understands that's a problem and it is a problem My point would be there europe should have done much much more the only people that were going to george in 2008 and ukraine in 2014 As I understood we're like the poles the bolts Well, the jordans went to ukraine after just to show solidarity But like all of western europe was just saying well, we need cheap russian gas and that was that was the idea So it was two lacks of diplomacy from western europe leading up to the invasion all the way going back to 2014 And then the dis info campaign as I mentioned is real like if you don't think it's real You're just living with your you know ahead in the sand I mean it russia has 30 million russians living abroad 30 million and that's Not as many as chinese and indians as I understand but an interesting fact about that is The only reason that they have 30 million russians living abroad is precisely because of their tyrannical dictator regime at home That's a hundred years of russians fleeing russia Gives you 30 million russians abroad and then Ironically leads to vladimir putin in the 2010 saying okay. We need this ruskimir this novorecia We need this russian world Where we're basically going to try to use these russians that live abroad to you know come home bring them into the fold Create things like rt. Hey, we're going to get us hating americans to come on rt like it was Beautifully played frankly from them in the early 2010s and 2000s when we just didn't care right? We just we just didn't care So so my point of all that is basically Diplomacy and peace and trade definitely work But it's not a free lunch and it's you have to at least in 2022 where we do have states I mean you have to stand up to people that violate international law and we never did that 2014 was was the big problem and then when it came to 2022 My personal view is if nato had acted in the early days It would have been better Maybe controversial to stay but I mean in the very very early days when not even they'd gone in yet But if they had just and yes, I know the us provides the majority of the nato budget You know some 60 some 60 to 70 percent of the nato budget. I know that I know it's hard to talk about nato without talking about the us But this was telegraphed for months and months like you know, I got podcasts from last year talking about Russia's aggression and rising threat To the world into ukraine. They were you know taking their Sending their tanks on rails from asia Already in like november of last year We did nothing like the Baltic send them some stingers. Nobody did anything before they actually invaded on february 24th so I think that's another folly. I think that deterrence is important and pacifism is absolutely the wrong thing if you want to be a pacifist And sometimes I don't know the difference between non-interventionism as the libertarians to find it and pacifism Sometimes I don't know the difference. I wouldn't use the word isolationism. That's a bad 19th century word but pacifism is never gonna work. It's never ever gonna work We are witnessing what you what pacifism brings. I think that's what that's what we're witnessing right now well, so what's interesting to me is um I think from an american libertarian perspective like five years ago rt was like just this sort of cool edgy Alternative media platform, right? And they even call us those rt. They don't say russia today Like they're trying to downplay it like Contrary to our chicken rebranded rebranded themselves to kfc to avoid to avoid saying fried So it's just rt used this cool thing. So all these libertarians a lot of my buddies Hell, I might have been on there. I don't remember but I don't think you were but I don't think I was but But I have some friends that were for sure And they were all oh they're like fighting the you know the the media narrative in the america But from the from the perspective of you libertarians in central europe eastern europe You're like you guys are like You're like uh making a deal with the devil It's it's come up to ruse. Like here we are. Uh, it's really bad Every day Ukrainians are dying, you know, I don't know how broad you want to take this discussion But it's not necessarily looking like support is growing For Ukraine in the u.s. I don't know maybe you have a different take on that I haven't seen any big erosion. They're still ukraine, you know banners and flags all over houston where I live You know and I actually have some small hope that ukraine actually can I won't say win because I don't I don't know what it means to win. I I can't imagine russia Withdrawing from everywhere. They've conquered and just like Getting up Unless there's some kind of weird coup there Or collapse but um, I could imagine some kind of like Ukrainian victory Where they're able to like get russia to like say, okay, we're gonna give up We're gonna negotiate some kind of terms of terms of uh, you know some new treaty And I hope that that happens because I mean I actually think russia is uh I would love to see russia like collapse, you know, I mean like, you know The common narrative is that, you know, reagan increased american spending in the 80s and and the the so the commies couldn't keep up so they finally collapsed I don't know if that narrative is actually 100 correct, but um, I wouldn't mind seeing russia like totally uh, deplete itself of their money and their wealth and their And their system in this stupid war that which finally which finally depletes their coffers and they finally collapse and they I mean, I would love to see russia become a modern cosmopolitan, you know Liberal nation in the future. Uh, I just don't I don't see their I don't think it's it's not in the mentality of the people I mean, I mean the people are fine, but you know, it's like it's just not in their I don't see it happening anytime soon. I would love I would love for that to happen I mean and I I want to avoid nuclear war on the way out of all those too So, you know, that's sort of my simple mining perspective I remember back in like february march the russians They were trying to justify their invasion as they always do is, you know, we're the the aggrieved party here We're not the aggressors. It's the same type of thing. And so They they expanded their list, which is like, you know, a thousand meters long at this point But they expanded their list of uh, the persona non grata and people that were enemies of the russian state And one of them was even hillary clinton And I remember you actually ironically, I don't know if you remember this but you You actually liked the tweet and said something that she was actually being funny here because clinton, you know Of all people hillary clinton said, you know, I actually thank russia for for this lifetime achievement award And it's true. I mean, look, it's pretty bad when someone is so bad that they make you actually say something nice about hillary clinton Yes, and Are we are we so odd that we can use, you know, two parts of our brain to to think differently about two different situations or Or what I just I cannot quite understand why this is uh, these principles are so hard For certain people to follow. I don't know. Maybe i'm maybe i'm missing something But I totally agree with your With your sentiments there. I just think that they have focused so much on the us as being the the big evil guy that they they have want they have like a they just can't see past that that framing and um You know, it's like this this is part of the problem. I think with having a one issue thing I mean, you know, some people accuse me of this with intellectual property because like I see everything in that term Although I think I have some basis for My arguments, but I don't say that Intellectual property is the only thing, you know, there is taxation and the fed and you know expropriation So but I think some people are so worried about like war is their only issue um Some of the anti-war team people which like I support their Their opposition to war, but war is not the only issue It's just the reason we're against war is because we favor peace freedom prosperity you know liberalism Color and polititism, you know ideas inter social and of course, you know civilization society I mean, it's just like it. It's a consequence of deeper values that we all share as civilized people um And but by virtue of holding those values, you're going to favor, you know, other things, you know, like Other policies that have nothing to do with war Do you think that there's a real future for the federal government in the united states to I don't know ease up on this power, you know, I mean like because as you I think rightly pointed like, uh, you know, you're anti commie Anti-red all of these things that you know, when you were growing up, obviously was so obvious that the soviet union was wrong Uh, I think there are many things. It's obvious that the federal government is overreaching in the united states Do you think that there is a real future there that the federal government will ease up on some of its power? Are we are we still careening towards some train wreck there? That's a good question. Um I mean, I don't think any group ever gives up their power voluntarily Like you even have charities and groups that were formed for some purpose and they actually achieve their mission like Cures some disease and then they just ship they just shift, right? Because they don't want to they don't give up their power their donors and their and their structure So I don't think that governments will dissipate because they will ever give up power They will always cling to it. Um My hope is that um Is that the federal government say in the u.s. Will become more like the monarchy in england like over time It will become a vestige Or a legacy of the old order and more like a curiosity piece or Yeah, it's not worth abolishing it and it's there for institutional reasons, but it like Has less and less power because the the free market the private order um becomes so dominant Around it. I mean if you have a future world, I mean, I'm thinking like a hundred a thousand years from now Where people have such high technology and such super wealth that they can defend themselves or Local neighborhood groups can defend themselves And you know, you can grow your own food and have robots and do your surgery at a certain point All the arguments for the state disappear because the state is there they always claim that they're there to solve a problem that you can't solve on your own, right like security or health care or Housing or food But when that stuff becomes plentiful and abundant because of the free market Then the government's role will naturally retrench So I can imagine a future world where the federal government still exists, but it's like 1% Of of the whole country's economic activity. So it's like a showpiece I mean, that's that's my naive utopian Hope I'm not saying I'm I'm not saying I'm predicting it But I'm I think that's the only way that we will achieve a future of free society is a natural sort of diminution of the Of the of the of the state role And then the natural dominance of private institutions that supplant those roles I certainly hope we get there I know I said I didn't want to do one anymore on nukes, but I actually have one more one of the examples I guess that I do hear from the anti-war folks a lot is if Ukraine did have their nukes or yeah NATO is expanding to russian the russian border Which again, we all went through the obvious holes there let alone the fact that sweden finland are now joining finland Which has you know thousands of kilometers of border With russia. So good job. Let him Putin on that deterrence from your side So it's just nonsense in my view, but still let's let's just assume and it may be a grand assumption But it is an assumption that they make a lot the people that support Putin even in this war Let's say that china decides to make an extra territorial agreement with a central american nation or even mexico for whatever reason and Have more military bases. Maybe even some nukes right on the us's border How would the us react to that? What would the us think about from that perspective? That's supposedly justifying the the russian side if we would think about that question I think that's unpredictable. I mean, I think that in a sense the chinese threat is is Bizarre because You know to the extent that china is actually emerging from communism and becoming you know a quasi capitalist productive power which they have become in the last 20 years That's actually a good thing, right? So when we say that's a threat. That's not a threat. It's actually a good thing And then you know half the threat half the don't have to bring it back to my hobby horse ip But half the threats you hear it's like china stealing our They're stealing our ip you hear this all over you hear this all the time It's like it makes and people say it and they don't even know what they're talking about because they don't even understand What ip is Because like china is like literally not stealing our ip because ip is a territorial thing It's a national thing like patent law in america and copyright law in america is one thing Like it's impossible to violate. It's impossible to infringe a patent or copyright of an american citizen or company By anything you do in china. It's impossible They can violate. I mean it's just not that's not the way the law works if they're national laws. They can violate chinese patent law if they're violating a chinese patent So then you're just saying oh, we don't think they have a good legal system. Okay. Yeah Well, they don't have the same tort laws we have they don't have the same insurance law the same contract law the same marriage law They hey, they might not even recognize gay marriage over there. I don't know I mean, is that really why you want to go to war against china because they don't have the same gay marriage laws We do I mean, you know what I mean? It's like their local law is irrelevant So china is actually not stealing our ip so we hear these weird criticisms. So we hear criticisms china because they're competing with us Which is a good thing because they're more prosperous or because they're stealing our ip which makes no sense um I actually think the other things might be more likely which is I think china is like a house of cards about to collapse because There are a bunch of commies and they haven't they haven't really become capitalist and so they can only They can only uh prosper for so long on this initial surge of energy they got from Slight liberalization slight liberalization because they had a lot of low hanging fruit But they haven't gone all the way. So they're stupid Command and control bullshit is going to catch up with them. I mean just like with russia I don't think russia can afford the war in ukraine. I don't think china can afford all the insane half combination that they've been doing so I mean I don't want to say i don't see china as a threat because I don't think they would be a threat even if they were successful They were successful. It'd be a good thing, you know, so I I guess that's how I see um China I think the west should You know, of course the west is sabotaging itself because the west was dominant because of certain institutions and characteristics But we've we've we've done our best to shortly kill those things, right with the welfare state and democracy and business regulations and taxation But even given all that I think that you know, the west still has the advantage because we have the stronger capitalist institutional framework despite all the The ways that the the the state and society hampers it that whole question about china's dominance is way front running the reality of Just poor a poor communist underbelly Dominance, it's it's a very poor way to to view the world and we've actually seen that you know with covid the way They've handled covid it's a bit scary the way that power has been You know sort of wrangled in by g And I don't know if you saw that huge in tow the former secretary general was escorted out of that the congress Couple weeks ago and all those things all this theater all this soviet stuff and it's so funny because There's a book interesting book by mervin king a former governor of the bank of england And he was he was kind of ominous about it in his book Um, he's he's a pretty balanced guy. Actually. It's kind of like a vulgar type. It's kind of hawkish. Whatever He's still a central banker. So not it, you know, but you can learn interesting things for reading these types of books And he was saying how he had a meeting with a bunch of chinese technocrats bureaucrats Whoever they were many years ago and they said, you know, we've learned all your history We studied british history colonial history american history We're going to do it better with our own Technocratic communistic way. We're not going to make the same mistakes you did And you know, it's just famous last words, right? Like they didn't handle covid well They're still not handling covid well. They screwed the whole world in the process And they're looking quite bad as far as uh, what they might do with next steps with taiwan What not it's it's ominous still it's scary But you know the real estate market all the ghost cities all those things like those are those are certainly real And there's a certainly problems that they're gonna have to deal with. Yeah, I saw some uh some video recently Some guy was talking about just reminding us of this the japan scare like the red scare Yeah from from the 90s like remember there's all these novels and movies like oh japan was about to Like japan was the big threat. Yeah from the 80s even from the 80s. Yeah, and so it's like, I don't know what What do you mean the threat? I mean like if you have a An economic superpower that that's actually so this is the economic ignorance here like illiteracy um An economic superpower is actually good for everyone because you know, they produce more and they trade more with you and all that stuff So japan had actually become More more. I mean, they're very powerful and prosperous even now But despite their recessions and their money printing Stagflation and what you know all the ways they've done they they've screwed it up following the western model, right? Yeah, I mean, I guess they suffered the burden of Yeah, they got a western constitution imposed on them by the us after world war two But but then they also got the western Bullshit about central banks and you know, so so they they've suffered under that policy too but um But yeah, so I think that this whole this whole chinese threat thing is is is ridiculous Unless china became warlike because they also have a lot of nukes You know, but I don't see china or Or russia wanting to destroy the entire planet with a nuclear armageddon. I hope I hope I put in his interest as a stand power and my understanding is if he goes nuclear in any way shape or form, uh, he Kind of stands that he's Going to face a grave threat to his power. So that's putin's interest is putin alone You know, he's a psychopath narcissist all the typical characteristics. He's he's just not He's not anyone that cares about the people and unfortunately the russian people are people that don't stand up for that So, uh, you know, that's that's gonna be their problem and they're gonna have to solve it. So what's your prediction of What's probably gonna happen In the ukraine war or the next year or so? Well, uh, winter is going to be tough But I feel pretty heartened that, you know, gas prices are falling and all of these storage capacity is Like up even to 90 in europe, which they tried to get it to 80 by november My understanding is it's close to 90 right now That's very very good And you know, everybody's prepared everybody's united. Um, I think that it's going to be a very hard winter It's going to continue on putin will probably In his own bastardly way try to Make ukrainians lives miserable throughout the winter while at the same time signalling. Okay. Now. It's finally time to talk I don't think the ukrainians will Will give into that so we'll continue on Uh, it will continue on and then it goes into the summer where again I think ukraine will have more support to counter More support, uh, from, you know, the west and the free world to counter And I think at some point they will the russians will exhaust their resources And they will just have to come to some talks whether that means all territory back to ukraine Or all territory ex-kramia, you know, I'm not sure I can't predict but ukraine is in no way shape or form the people the polls everybody nobody is predicting That they want to give up on fighting, you know, the aggressor and I think I think they want to fight until they get all of their territory back And it's very unfortunate again going back to the story that I sort of told of Basically putans rise to power and how that was overlooked by the west for for Two decades and especially when when the war in kramia started the taking of kramia and the war in the donbas started in 2014 so I think everybody's paying attention now. I think germans are going to become more independent Economically and energy wise. I do think that's kind of a wake-up call. Actually, I think it's Unfortunately, they're still going to have to suffer and and that's the issue and I wonder I actually had one more kind of philosophical question regarding, uh You know liberty and property rights and how you build this stuff up You mentioned how the united states is falling and as most people know, right? That's product of central banking and government overreach and all the rest which we all agree on What is the role of the institution in sort of today's modern world? Do you think with technology it will be allowed to become less important or Ukraine might figure this out in their own way. I know you're not like an expert on ukraine, but As far as the principle goes The united states I think we all believe was successful because they had strong property rights, but that was still represented by some Institution so it's going back to my sort of classical liberal question Like do we need an institution to enforce property rights? You know, is it is bitcoin going to help there? I don't know. Is there any other way good question and I don't know the answer Um, but I think that's that's the right question to ask. Um Um It's almost a meta question like what meta Yeah, this way you get into think-ism and western cultural superiority and all these all these issues, right? um Like what is going to cause? Give rise to like what about a given society gives rise to the right micro institutions that actually, you know, create wealth Yes, and um I don't know the answer to that. I mean, I think there's some obvious common sense things. There's some I am sympathetic towards conservatism in the sense of don't don't Replace an existing traditional system if you don't know how we got there In other words, it it might have a logic of its own, which is even it might be tacit and in articulate We don't know but there may be a reason for this tradition. Don't just Don't just change a rule In some rationalists kind of like utopian scheme because you you might not know what you're going to get um, but by the same token What gives rise to success of different cultures? It's hard to say I mean, obviously the classical virtues thrift and the western, you know, uh Honesty integrity All these things Make sense and then they're transmitted by Societal institutions like religion I mean, I'm not religious, but I could say that I could see how A religious institution is going to tend to be Um prevalent in most societies until a certain point in time And they're going to be the chief mechanisms of transmitting preserving Teaching, you know virtues and values and habits um So I it's sort of an empirical thing. We have to just wait and see like which societies like tend to prosper And sometimes it's luck of the draw. Sometimes it's a long term tendency or trend But um, yeah, so I do have some opinions on this But I'm actually dancing around it because I I like not to pronounce on things that I I know I'm not an expert on But yeah, I am personally drawn towards the western virtues. Um, you know, a heterosexual family unit conservatism in cultural conservatism in private practice um thrift virtue hard work Prudence, you know justice fairness all these types of things That's what I'm drawn to and I'm a little bit. Um Cautious enough to be aware that that might be a my personal bias or my My uh, my own historical bias, but I tend to think that's what's going to So but but but but the real question is what is going to Like I actually think that the ideas of liberty um I think that they're right Now, what does it mean that they're right? They're right in a normative sense in a moral sense in a logical sense You can argue for them But you can't just have nothing's in isolation in the world because that's what it to exist means to have an effect on other things So part being part of reality is to Be interconnected to everything else. So nothing is isolated completely like so you can't just isolate off some kind of intellectual exercise about Uh, what a just society would look like when we say that it's right We we say that what we mean is that it has a certain um A rightness about it which makes it sort of work in a certain context So I guess my hope and my goal for the human race is that We advance and we keep developing and evolving. We reach a point where um The logic of liberty Carries its own weight In other words, you don't have to have liberty Because you have libertarians like me and you arguing for it But but just because it makes sense. I mean the free market emerges because people trade because It makes sense to trade They're not doing it because someone gave them an argument to trade, you know and so I I sort of My distant hope for the human race for a future human race is far better than What we live in now a future of liberty and freedom and tolerance and you know prosperity Is one where it's just natural to everyone to respect rights and to Live in peace with each other because I think the logic of liberty makes a sort of sense Um, I think that it's just too early right now That's why we seem to struggle and why we have advocates like me and you trying to Push for it. We're pushing a little too early. Maybe because You can't push for something that's before it's time, right? Anyway, I'm rambling a little bit here, but these are a little bit metaphysical speculations, but um, I suppose what I think is that um Liberty Liberty does work But only with a certain substrate of of people to work upon And we're not quite there yet. We're still we're still way more primitive than we think we are I we humans think that we're not like our ancestors 3000 or 5000 years ago or 10 000 years ago because we have airplanes and lasers and iPhones, but those are just technological constructs that we sort of came up with um, because a very very very very very few of us Understand those those laws of nature, right? Most people don't understand the tools they're using at all Right, yeah So I think that we think we're advanced and we're we're modern, but we're I think we're actually not in the modern age yet And that's why liberty is not catching on yet Um, so I guess I'm hopeful that when the human race evolves if we don't kill ourselves with gray goo or with nuclear weapons or whatever um That we will finally evolve into a modern, you know Society that we're liberty makes sense naturally on itself. That's my vision of like imagining the government Oh, yeah, the government won't disappear. It'll atrophy. It'll be a vestigial organ, right? It'll just be a symbol of the past, but no one will care because Okay, we'll give them one percent of our income because They keep they preserve the old order, but nobody cares. We'll see how much longer that continues in english This is the omni magazine console. I know I'm totally crazy here, but What can you say? I mean, there's no other way to do it. I mean you have to wait People say how do you achieve liberty? My answer is wait And they don't like that answer because they don't want to wait. They want it now They want to stamp their feet and have it now and I'm like, well, I I appreciate that but Wishing doesn't make it so as iron rand said When you do look at a situation like ukraine though, and yes, I understand that there are conflicts all over the world I understand the u.s. Has been a part of conflicts all over the world, but if you think of a situation like ukraine where it's Clearly been trying for the last 30 years It's never invaded any country in the last 30 years To become part of a new society the west which like the Baltics have succeeded in Poland Czech Republic, Slovakia, everybody's succeeded in no problem. And by the way, I always say this too You might like this. I mean the easiest quickest argument for any sort of woke SJW even race-based economic disparity in the united states the easiest Skeleton key for that is just to show them central and eastern europe. I mean, literally our populations are 99.9 percent white they were Generations behind the west at the start of the 20th century and you know now they've pretty much caught up in A couple decades after the soviet union ended. So what more argument do you need to not have an authoritarian society? It's incredible. So anyway, that's actually a smaller side But the bigger point I think with with the bigger question that I still have is Agreeing with everything you said about the the distant future What do you think is the? I don't know prudent or maybe even like classical liberal way to look at something like the ukraine war Kind of going back to what I said before is where you have a state. I mean What role I don't know if I want to ask this question, but what role should the state play in defending ukraine Oh my god. Well, that's difficult because so the u.s situation From the u.s point of view You know, it's rational to say what is the right policy from the interest of american citizens or whatever And part of that is maintaining a world order of respect for international law like so I mean the u the u.n. Has been shown to be a little bit toothless but or pointless Over the years because you have this five member permanent security council And they always veto each other's votes on big matters because The problem is russia is still part of the security council is permanent And they're they're just like a romp nation that mafia state. Yeah, they may be on the verge of imploding I mean france uk us fine China, I don't know. I mean, but basically I think it should be civilized nations and but on the other hand, there's real politic there so um I think we have to wait and see what happens with the with with the with the ukraine thing I think that the world has been surprised At the resilience of the ukraine in opposition. Like I think some people thought I think I think I read that the u.s official estimate was assessment was that When russia invaded they would have taken over ukraine in three days But but these are the same people that thought we could take over iraq in like a week, you know So they misjudged apparently and the the the ukraine resistance is sincere and real And I don't think they have any chance of winning without support of the west So I'm torn, you know, I like I don't I don't believe in taxation and supporting war and risky nuclear war and all that but on the other hand I want the ukrainians to win so or at least to Repel the russian invaders at a certain point Even if they have to give up some territory, I mean, I'm I don't I personally am not too concerned about the final resolution of it But I would like them to emerge and I think ukraine will emerge stronger because um, you know, they were basically an authoritarian basket case in past decades But they're they seem to be sort of becoming a modern western liberal country They want to be right I think so And I think they have a chance to be if they can just escape if they can just emerge from this war Now, of course, we're gonna have a martial plan or we're gonna They're gonna get billions of dollars of aid to rebuild the country after this is over if they survive I like to say is like I'm not religious but I pray for the ukrainians. I think it's horrible what the russians are doing I sympathize with the east europeans like yourself. Um I mean, I was at turkey and pfs with hoppers thing and there were some polish guys there and we were all Sort of commiserating with each other, you know what I mean? Like, um Yeah, this this is bad. Just to me it should not be controversial to condemn an invasion like this. It's bad Um Whatever your feelings about us and nato are, you know, I mean this is just not acceptable in today's world Yeah, in my view. Yeah, no, I completely agree. I completely agree Well, listen, this has been uh, this has been really good stuff. And I don't know. Do you have anything Anything else to add any other topics you would I appreciate the talk you let me ramble and um I went in directions. I had not thought about I would do it, but whatever It's it's uh, it's perfect. I mean, that's what I love Hearing from our guests and that's why I would do the show for sure I will link to the snider harris interview that you mentioned. I actually hadn't Seen that one. But yeah, definitely recommend again to our listeners. I mean Timothy Snyder is probably the best one of the best experts in the world on ukraine and he all of his books Talk about polling ukraine, you know bloodlands Inner war and war periods of uh of eastern europe. I think very very well. So I'd recommend that Also, I will link to this paper. I found what I was talking about with hapa And I can't even summarize it. Uh, I want to make sure I get it right But it's it's on it's called on immigration reply to hapa. It's by anthony gregory and walter block from fall 2007 in the journal libertarian studies and my understanding is they're like full-scale no state at all like no state Intervention with immigration hapa is not in a practical sense. But again, I Even saying hapa is not in a practical sense Maybe I'm wrong because I know he's a very precise person and I wouldn't want to miss quote But that's the paper if someone people want to read it. But yeah, as far as ukraine goes Um, certainly empathize with your support. I appreciate your libertarian views as always stefan So definitely looking forward to giving the show out and hearing what people think. So thanks a lot for joining Thanks, pat. All right. Take care