 Excellent. So this is Inside Jury's Brain for Friday the 13th of March 2020, an auspicious day. This is the first Inside Jury's Brain call of the modern coronavirus era. Life is very different than it was two weeks ago, for most everybody around us. And I guess in Wuhan it was very different even a while before that. And so I just wanted to see where everybody is, what the best resources are. We have how we feel about this, a bunch of things like that. And I'm happy to just open the floor and see where we start. Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Okay, well I'll say some things. Please. My current naive view is that the best model is that basically everybody's going to get it at some point. But the advantage for us of slowing it down is hospitals from being overcrowded. Right, that's the flatten the curve strategy. And that's where we are. To me, what's most on the front because of my other concerns is that the coronavirus episode masks the climate change issue. But on the good side, it might probably be a kind of preview of coming attractions for how we'll have to handle climate change issues. Other than that, it's difficult philosophically, feeling terrific myself and living in a pretty good circumstance being out in nature on the Russian River. When the world is hard around us. So it's like it's a careful state that's adequate to that contribution. Yep. I'm just, I'm getting a couple of dropouts in your connection. Is that just me or is everybody else also getting the dropouts? I hear I'm fine. Okay, so it's probably just me. Cool. That's great. That's better for you. And it's weird because if we can isolate ourselves and just sort of hold on, that'll be great. If it is true that just about everybody's going to get it, then like, wow, what do we do? Because, you know, if you're, if you've got chronic conditions or if you're old or susceptible or whatever, that's going to be a real problem. Hey, Gil, welcome to call. Excellent. Soon we'll all just be avatars and little zoom windows. So, so, yeah, exactly. I feel trapped by the box. This is the new box. I think outside the box is going to mean moving into your next door neighbor's cell. That's good. That'll be like a whole new meaning for the phrase. So, so flat in the curve seems to be like the big strategy right now. There's a whole bunch of things to do. Wash your hands. People are making that their sig file. You know, that'll be our new closing greeting when we, when we depart and, you know, when we stop conversations that we like wash your hands. Okay, good. But what big and big picture what appears to be happening also is that Trump gave such a miserable talk to reassure the public and has such a lousy strategy for what to do that this could be the emperor's new closed moment, maybe, maybe, but I, he has survived things that I thought would knock him out before and I'm like, I'm not confident that that is, you know, anything like the end of the Trump administration. But that also does mean that I think our passage through this rocky, twisty place is going to be uglier than it ought to be that it could have been that it would have been. I can jump in a little bit there. Um, so I, it's, it's extremely disappointing that federal leadership from kind of took apart our pandemic response capabilities and then left us in the lurch when we needed it. There's a there's a weird thing that happened. You know, I think it was yesterday. It was the day when everything kind of, you know, fell apart and and people took action so governors and mayors and school officials all ended up doing kind of the right thing mostly saying okay we're going to close, we're going to just close stuff down. This should have been, you know, a federal, a federally kind of managed and and, you know, federal recommendations and things like that. That would have been ideal but civil society kind of took over anyway. So there's there's some good news there. I was talking with my brother about the healthcare system response, the healthcare system response has been kind of bipolar. Like, thank God for all the healthcare professionals in the world and we're going to need them a lot and we're going to need to support the heck out of them. Some of them broke ranks, the Seattle flu doctors kind of echoing the the early doctors in China, you know, broke broke rules to to demonstrate that coronavirus was spreading in Washington and for a while that looked like, you know, my gosh, Washington is a hotspot, you know, maybe it wasn't a hotspot maybe it was just where we knew what was going on. Right. So some some of the healthcare professionals are able to break rules and and and tell us what's going on and give us some information. Much of the healthcare system is stuck behind, you know, CDC regulations. So they have akin to learned helplessness, they actually have trained helplessness they've been trained that they and legislated that they have to count how to the CDC. So. So on the one hand, we kind of had society work itself out and do the right thing and just say okay we're going to do social distance we're going to close everything we're you know we're going to do what the federal government can't decide to do. And then our health care system got stuck behind the fact that CDC is is, you know, Lord's overall of that and CDC got got itself in a bind, you know, in a straight jacket because of Trump so the the other thing I want to mention in there if I can kind of remember it. The other the other demonstration that two things that Trump is demonstrating that I feel is really bad. One of them is he doesn't understand that this is a public health care issue and a response built around people and their needs. So he's his lizard brain is going okay this is another recession and we're going to do economic stimulus and we're going to help the companies who are in pain and stuff like that. That is completely the wrong thing to do. We need to be helping people on the ground, make sure that they get health care even if they can't afford it in our in our system, which is socialized medicine crazy crazy this is just a democratic plot. And that's not you know and that's not that's that helps everybody it doesn't help just those people getting health care it helps everybody else and getting sick. And the other. So there's a, you know that the economic system the capitalist system has this knee jerk reaction to insults that is like, while we're going to do the things that we always do when you know when things are bad. And it's not, you know, the social responses what we need here. So, agreed. You're you were raising your hand. And you're you're is muted hold on. Let me go to Yuri first and you. Okay. Okay, just just very quickly. I just watched a scene on Twitter. A post which says holy shit Katie Porter was the CDC directors feed to fire gets him to commit to free testing for Coronavirus for all Americans. I wanted to ask whether everybody had watched that clip. Okay, you've seen that. Okay, I haven't. I'll just say that it was tweeted and retweeted a million times yesterday and I'm late to the game but I'm just wanted to say that I'm really happy to see that. I'm sorry. So Katie Porter, new new young representative from New York, I think she basically California, California, that's right, California, that's right, who had an appendicitis in the middle of her campaign. I believe there's a other kind of story she's really I think she's going to turn out to be a long term hero. She basically first says like what would it cost to test somebody. And then the CDC director is like I don't know. And she's so like ballpark it man. So he she asked him to guess and then she's got a little whiteboard, and she writes down the actual numbers because she's looking down at her notes and she's priced all these things out. And he guesses she says good, good guess $43 not 55 whatever. And she pressed up and says this is $3,000. This is the cost per person and it's like $1,352 or something like that. It's like only only above $1,000 in her estimator something like that. No, 3,000 here. Was it 3,000 total. 3,000. Okay, okay. Anyway, then she forces him basically to promise that people will be able to get tested for free in the US because he has the emergency authorization and she cites the bill that gives him the authorization blah, blah, blah. It's a it's a brilliant piece of maneuvering and it's like the thing I wish he had said this is like, I love retrospectives. The thing I wish he had said was, why, why are you forcing us to do your job. Like why, why are you making me do this to you. Like this, you should be out ahead of this, having done this already, like what is up here, what is going on. So sorry, back to you and in the booth. This is very funny everybody's got the little booth Judy. Well, I was just going to say that there have been some some good videos and other things online educating people by epidemiologists who kind of broken ranks or at least gone with their understanding and some of them quite credible which is put some good information out there. I think one of the most challenging dimensions is that communication aspect in terms of practices that mitigate. Oscar Holm who's sort of the state epidemiologist in Minnesota and an internationally known one kind of created that explained the spectrum to the novice in terms of, you know, mitigation pandemic suppression in between and how to flatten the curve, but if people are non compliant and don't appreciate the hazards of crowds or the hazards of lack of hygiene or other things will end up with social transfer which so far we've had very little of in the country I mean there's certain hotspots where there has been like San Diego PSA. But I think in my, I think there's two opportunities here. And I guess my personality is to want to focus on the opportunities not the gloom and doom, but it to enhance the level of understanding of health medical and science issues and the importance of science to the future of society globally, which then brings into credibility. It's climate change, a host of other things and the social dimension of it in terms of social responsibility, because this is not something where you can say, Oh, I can go it alone. We're connected by supply chain to the pharmaceuticals were connected by supply chain to the medical supplies, the respirator components all of these other dimensions. And so you can't take a close your border, ignore the rest of the world protect yourself perspective either nationally, or individually. And I don't know how to crack that nut but that's the nut I'm trying to work on personally. Thank you. And then I just watched a clip this morning of Jerry Falwell Jr. on Fox, basically saying, Well, this is probably a Democratic plot to take down the president because impeachment failed. And because article 25 has failed, because now they're just going to pump this everybody's overhyped. And I think that like there's a secret plot that Korea sent this to us or something. It was like, Oh, God, so, so you wonder how long the edifice of denial will stand. And I will add that it has it has withstood a whole series of very, very direct shocks really, really well. Mike Nelson, you raised your hand. Yeah, I worked on Capitol Hill long, long time ago. And Al Gore was an expert at doing this kind of pressure technique on Bush administration officials, particularly around climate change. And often he was doing it to people who wanted to be pressured so that they could go back to the office and say, Oh, I just got really beaten up by the Senate and you know we're gonna have to do something more effective here we have to move move on climate change. I mean, Alan Bromley was the president science advisor and he thought climate change was a great reason to go nuclear. And so he was trying to get the attention of the rest of the White House on the threat of climate change. And I suspect the head of the CDC kind of welcomed the pressure. The person welcoming it but well it's you know you can't you can't smile and say thank you but yeah, it is. I'm sure he thinks that there needs to be more testing. I mean the fact that the Koreans are doing 100 times more testing per million people. Yeah, is astonishing and that the stories just keep coming about how people go in to get tested and even though in some cases they've got the symptoms, or they were exposed to somebody who has a positive test. They can't get the test. Yeah. The other problem though is is the triage that's going to have to happen if you haven't been following the stories coming out of northern Italy. Yeah, where they don't have enough ventilators for the patients who are in the worst shape. And so people are having to decide who dies and who doesn't very scary. Yeah, they're calling it catastrophe medicine basically a triage and you know your chances of survivability and kind of an actuarial approach toward the value of your life are being factored into whether or not you get the ventilator for example. One question I have for the group is less tragic and less traumatic. I spend time on internet policy and this move to work from home is going to put a lot of strain on a lot of local networks. It's also going to put a lot of strain on zoom. I'm curious if anybody's seen any good articles speculating on what happens when a local network has to accommodate three kids who are home from school all watching. So I can actually I can actually answer that Mike, because there's a list I'm on that were geeks have been talking about this a whole bunch. And they're saying, first of all video is the big killer because video eats much more bandwidth than everything else. And I think Call of Duty just had a big release. And so that spike traffic in a in a bunch of places, just as everybody was being sent home. So it was like really great for Call of Duty bad for traffic. Still the spike was like 8% or something like that. And the thing that woke me up was when Cloudflare or somebody else is dealing with denial of service attacks. The traffic in those instances is unimaginably large and spikes the net in ways you wouldn't believe and that doesn't bring the net down. So other than maybe small local providers or rural people or, you know, places where your connection was flaky in the first place. Those people might have trouble, but they didn't nobody on the list was like, this is a real problem. We're going to the net might go down because of the added traffic because everybody's been sent home. So at this point, I'm not worried that that's one of our problems. I'm much more worried about the lack of availability of everything from test kits to ventilators to whatever else we need. Well, the two questions are, were they assuming wired connections, because a lot of people are going to be using mobile phones. And the other question is really about the infrastructure of companies like zoom. That's that's that's a much more specific load. Right. And maybe a Microsoft is also doing office and supporting that from our whole team just went home from Carnegie. And so there's a lot more demand on these cloud infrastructures and I just don't know how much capacity is built in. I certainly know how much capacity Cloudflare has built in, but right. Right. Exactly. That's a different problem. I would certainly imagine that zoom is highly motivated to hire the best engineers from Google and Facebook and wherever else who understand traffic spikes and server load balancing to get this done right. And, and I will say that I've been on zoom multiple times and during this era, and have seen no glitches have seen no outages. I'm kind of shocked at how how solid zoom has been because people are rushing into zoom right. So this is kind of their moment to either make or break being a viable alternative to face to face. Well, if you can, you can show me anything written that addresses that would be pretty cool. Yeah. And I don't know what's what architecture there on what their stack is none of that but you know we we could maybe find out. I'm Judy. I was just going to mention there's a particular YouTube clip that we've been watching here in Minnesota because it's our state epidemiologist, who's part of the infectious disease department head at the University of Minnesota but he's well renowned. And he's on the conservative side of things in terms of taking precautions. But if you look up Joe Rogan episode 1439. And then Michael Osterholm. O-S-T-E-R H-O-L-M. There's a YouTube, it gets digressive because the interviewer asks some kind of wonky questions as a way to draw out the expert on incorrect fat information as well as what's actually substantive but he goes broadly because he talks about the dimensions of transfer of biological species from species to species source of origin, a host of things. It's about an hour and a half so I kind of clipped through when I got to a part I didn't like I just bumped it forward. Yeah. What I like also is that people are sending notes about other things like there was a note from a UCSF panel this morning that somebody sent notes from that which were pretty useful as bullet points instead of listening to an hour and a half or whatever. Sorry, go ahead. Can you post those to our group? I will make myself a note because I'm hobbled with the iPad but right after this call I'm going to walk to the Apple store rescue my machine which because I got that note back and then I'll be able to do links and share and do branding and all that so I will. I'll make a note. Glad to hear your computer is healthy. Me too me too. Anyway, the battery was briefed aggression. It wasn't shutting completely and I was like well that's curious and I'd have like a millimeter gap and then it was like a millimeter and a half and then somebody sitting next to me said your battery might be swelling that's actually kind of dangerous. And so sure enough went to the Apple store they diagnosed it blah blah blah and so they're replaced for $200 they're replacing the battery which means the deck which means new keyboard and new trackpad new everything. And then she noticed that there was a little spidering on my screen which I had not noticed. She said we can replace your screen it's a normally a $450 repair for nothing. I'm like, okay please do that. So I'm looking forward to picking up the portal machine needs help. So who was, who was looking. Yeah. The question that's on my mind a lot is to food as people are trapped in their apartment or homes. Who's doing who's doing the harvesting. I can't find an imagination that connects it all together so that people get that. And so there's lots of weak links and we're in a just in time era. So I think these are these are really important questions and I just read a while ago a science fiction book called the second sleep because it was recommended by somebody meeting. Anybody read the second sleep. Do you mind if I spoiled the plot for you. Okay, so you're a chapter that the second sleep is set in 1466. And you're like two chapters in when the guy who's coming a horse to a little village. Come on horseback to the village goes into the Parsons sort of attic and discovers a bunch of artifacts that this person has been collecting. And then right at the end of that little chapter, one of the artifacts is a shiny object with a little picture of an apple with a bite out of it taken on its back. And, and, and all of a sudden it dawns on you that that is an iPhone and that we are in some post apocalyptic world. And the plot of the second sleep is that because our cities are so contingent on just in time supply and we have so many supply chains that are so fragile that a bad thing happened way back when during the I forget what they call it but it has a name you know that the big event. And everybody had to leave the cities because the London had only three days of food left. And so everybody went out went rural and then over a couple hundred years, nature reclaimed all technology so nobody has memory of all the stuff. And the Catholic Church politely picked up the freight and said, Oh we got this. And for bad anybody from looking into history because we don't want to repeat what caused that calamity. So, so, so anybody who's collecting these artifacts is a heretic and will get, you know, get chased down and so forth. And the last little item is, so they started renumbering right after the calamity they renumbered instead of going to zero the new year, the new year start with 666. So if we're set in 1466 or whatever it is, you know, minus 666 is the number of years from a couple years from now, that this whole thing is set in. And the rest of the book is okay doesn't, you know, plays out all right. But, but the premise is like that was blindsided because I, the guy had just said go read this and he didn't spoil the plot for me. So I now have but it's nicely done that moment is very nicely engineered. If you do a search on second sleep you also find a great deal of research about medieval sleeping habits. Because people used to sleep they had had an early sleep because it would get dark and you couldn't use up all your candles. Then they'd get up and wander around and have maybe have a meal and socialize and then they go back and sleep again. Have sex, fill the fireplace with wood. I mean, it's actually supposed to be the normal way that you sleep if you throw us in a cave. That's the sleep pattern we will evolve to we have no clocks and no, no signals from sunshine. That explains my aberrant sleep behavior. That's the important thing it's not aberrant and just hearing that those of us who who do that always worried about insomnia until I read that the medieval scholars have cured my insomnia problem by redefining it. I figured by definition I've made it into my 70s on on sort of aggregates of five to six hours of sleep per night for 65 years so it's probably not going to change is what my body wants to do. Unlikely yeah that's your set point somehow. I also just posted a fascinating set of slides which many of you may have seen they're from 2006 and there by a guy named Dimitri Orloff, who examined the resilience of the Soviet Union as compared to the resilience of the United States. It's close to all of these issues you were just mentioning about family structure, the fact that Americans are often commuting 30 miles of each way to work. The fact that none of us know how to grow anything anymore. It's a fascinating story of how to become a more resilient society the Soviets did it just because they got really used to being invaded and deprivation. So my intention on that which is that I read the piece I remember where this was, but in the former Eastern, former East Germany, where one in 10 citizens was an informant to the Stasi. You would imagine that that would just be a low trust society and that trust will be shattered. In fact, there was sort of a dark net or an underground or a black market, which was an extremely high trust network because if you were a doctor that's how that's how people are You were basically working outside the system and being paid in kind or with chickens or with whatever. And, you know, if you were discovered that was that was a really bad fate. So, oddly, in some situations where you have extreme difficulty on the surface, you can have a lot of trust under the surface and these other informal networks. And then in situations where you have apparent prosperity and, you know, consumerist wealth a consumerist abundance. I'll call it. We don't have those networks and we've lost all our skills. So that makes us in some sense less resilient and more vulnerable because we don't have the thing to fall back on that kept people alive during hard times. So I want to go back to the coronavirus issue and say what, what things do you hope will happen do you hope won't happen or what interventions are you looking for that would be like really useful right now what. How does this thing play out in your mind. Best of all possible world some new sense of social cohesion and solidarity and shared responsibility recognition that public health is a public matter that we're all in and then nobody gets to take care of themselves in a pandemic. There's a great piece that I put on Facebook this morning I think I'll see if I can find the link and throw it back in here. I'm actually saying young people you may think you're not at risk but think about this. You know you're an you're an infectious infectious agent you may kill your relatives that on and on from that. So I think for me that's critically important that's the high hope could come out of this could even drift into issues like climate. You hear from my mood. I'm not particularly optimistic about that. Both because of the nature of you know social breakdown we're already in and the relentless pumping from Republicans Fox News and so forth in what I think is is is criminal action I think it's reckless endangerment under the law. Yeah, there it is. Now, you know, there's maybe a little bright side and the fact that a half a dozen congressmen are testing positive. And that may start to affect their thinking and also narrow tested positive apparently lots of heads of state lots of people who have been in contact with Trump Trump officially has not been tested which I don't believe. Yeah. But you know you're going to see, I think we're going to see much more dramatic recognition of what what a class society looks like in a society that's never allowed to speak about class. And I'll play off that about to say that to me the most one of the most positive outcomes here is that this crisis leads us to figure out a whole bunch of things that we need to lessons we needed to learn about social connectivity trust, and sort of the frayed social fabric that we have, and that we begin to understand how do this which means to me, some of the most important work we can do right now is to is to is to model that basically to say you know here's what that is like and I was on a call yesterday that Nancy White ran for facilitators and other people about sort of online tools and how do you know, what do we do here. And it was fruitful it was really nice it was just lovely to see a lot of smiling faces leaning into this trying to figure out all right tool sharing skill sharing insight sharing on all this kind of stuff so I think there's a whole bunch of things to be done. And then the second question that this opens for me is. And this is one of the bigger questions in this whole political messy realm right now is, how do we bridge the cultural divide or the political divide or whatever you want to call it. Even even by even calling it a cultural divide is is is a little dicey, but but how do we bridge the gap to the other with a capital O, because we've otherwise people and you know the right I think is doing it very intentionally. And I think that if we can, if we can figure that one out we can actually get to where a larger proportion of the world's population is cooperating to figure these things out. The living in dialogues attempt to do that Joan blades project. Yeah, first for common ground has been doing that sort of thing for years bringing together so called adversaries to have, you know, human conversations together. And put, you know, put the ideological issues aside until some common ground is built. I keep thinking back to Doris lessing she cost a series where one of the threads that run through the three books is something. Something she calls the substance of we feeling as an actual quality in society that can be nurtured or eroded. And we think about a lot in these times. Very interesting I had not heard of this series that I'm not aware of them at all go remarkable. Thank you. And part of what I think part of what we can also do for each other is is digest the world for one another and forward it and link it and all that. And this is why I'm sorry that like when once I get my Mac back I can share my brain and do the usual thing that I do but but that that my own version of that is weaving things into the brain and making context for all these sorts of things. And there's so many really good book series, lectures, speeches, articles and all that going on that that I'm interested in what this sort of digestion process looks like and how we how we share well with each other in the middle of all this other thoughts other wishes for Doug. One of the things that I think might be happening is a recognition needs species management, not just management of the economy, which is a subset. There's also a growing recognition has to be worldwide coordination. I find that both helpful but a little scary as it tends towards Terry and the expert culture. Can you can you say more about what you mean by species management. Yeah, the idea that instead of just managing the that we manage the whole relationship of humanity to the earth in all of its various aspects. So it would be if you look at the if you were the head of a corporation that and the corporation was the earth. You would get a different recording procedure if people are starving or uncomfortable, they would be immediately a focus of attention. We don't do that we marginalize them and get them out of the picture of the economy because they're a threat. Right, so I want to I'd love to sink a little deeper into what you just said because one of my insights, I guess sort of recently I read a sentence that that I loved a lot which was that aboriginal tribes in Australia and indigenous cultures in North and South America manage the landscape, not individual plots of land, and not individual species or other sorts of things so that they had forest orchards or forest gardens or whatever you want to call it all over the place and they used fire stick farming to do controlled burns so they didn't have massive massive fires of course climate changes is affecting the whole the whole wrapper around all of this. But, but when you say species management, the word management, and particularly maybe because I've got like an MBA man, the word management scares me these days. And I'm trying to figure out, because one of the things that bugs me about sort of land management is we have been a wildlife preservation areas where no humans are supposed to live. And I think that humans who know what they're doing are really good for the landscape. Can you call what the aboriginal peoples in Australia and North America did if you didn't want to call it management? What would you, how would you name it? They were tending the commons, they were, they were stewarding, I think stewardship is a much better word than management. And we need a word that's more emergent than management because management tends to invoke top down control and monitoring and lots of, we're going to science the shit out of this which means we'll put everywhere, we'll write algorithms that optimize, we'll do all the kind of stuff that science is heading right toward with the fourth industrial revolution, and that will fix it. And I think that will like doubly screw us. Right. So, so when you say manage, I'm like, what do you mean by manage because I want the light hand somehow that allows us to have emergent behaviors and build distributed wisdom and share that wisdom like crazy, you know, regenerative agriculture ought to be wasted and fostered everywhere, just everywhere, because it generates tons of food and it's good for everything. It's carbon sequestration, it employs people, it's got 500 different good things about it. How do we propagate that idea? And how do we combine that idea with managing with with shepherding or tending or stewarding the landscape and being responsible for the commons together. And all this, you know, joint action to benefit everybody instead of and then I'll just add a little a little coda to that which is we're stuck in this weird dialogue about it's either capitalism all in or socialism and look how terrible socialism was never mind communism. That is just a stupid false dichotomy terrible argument, but we can't find our way to articulate what alternative ways of being in the world might look like smell like never mind. And there's tons of people working on that like the regenerative economy and I can point to 20 other all, you know, versions of that that I'm trying to collect in my brain, as I figure out 200 years ahead from now, what are we what will we call this new era, right, can go ahead. You're muted. Go ahead. Thanks for that started a couple things for me. When you ask what's the high hope here with what's what could come out of this one of the things I see is a slowing down of consumption, you know, I remember consumption, you know, TV they do their body really be consumed and we have been consuming the planet in ways that are incredibly detrimental to all of us. So, and a lot of that comes from Madison Avenue, and the stimulation of appetites, it's not good to have all of your appetite stimulated all the time. So, this idea that Wow, you know, I went to hear Ian Bremers speak last week, I got a ticket to your man he was talking about how China basically shut down their economy. Huge, huge cost of that would never happen to us, possible because they're under a dictatorship for cope with a they shot everything down they contained a city and they did something that that actually probably lessen the scale of the impact of the virus worldwide by doing so. And in doing that, it's going to take him a year to ramp back up. There's going to be supply line disruptions, there's going to be a lot of things that people are used to getting that they won't have. And I think they go, Wow, you know what haven't had this well, don't really need it. And think of my own experience of when I moved cross country for on the back roads of Boston out to California, didn't take any freeways and took them to come out here. And over the month without TV, I'm like, I don't need TV, not going to buy fun. Well, 30 years later, I still have a TV, I don't need a TV. Right. So, I'm really hopeful that that people who will discover that deprivation of certain things they're used to is actually leading to a sense of, I'm now filling that in with time with my family with friends with, you know, enjoying distractions that are constantly offered to me that I feel addicted to. This is like Tiffany slain's digital Shabbat enforced on everybody except we still have our digital toys at home, and people are looking at for those toys and their internet connection for the the thing that's going to relieve boredom and do whatever else Judy. Well, I think another optimistic hope for me is that we really develop this sense of shared responsibility. This is not a go at your loan kind of thing. And I think the community needs to learn to pull together. And we've been trying to tackle that for decades in a society that seems to be diverging in the opposite direction to isolationism. So I'm hopeful that that will be a key outcome of it. I also hope that a key outcome will be wider distribution of shared valid knowledge. And that the enablement of that with technology is particularly attractive right now, because you can get to the Johns Hopkins site and look at live data on the progress of the virus there's a lot of things that are out there, but people don't think about using them. So I think the idea of being able to share wisdom, which you kind of touched on Jerry as did others is to me an outcome that I would hope would get us back to a reality based fact checking kind of society. And can you or anyone else on this call and vision or narrate a path to what you just described, given the reality that a bunch of people on earth have weaponized truth and trust, and are basically undermining trust intentionally because they've discovered that they keep winning, and they're going to get tired of winning, and they might in fact be getting tired of winning right now. I think we have to personally I think we have to individually collectively use all of our networks to weaponize interdependency communication. I think we don't, we don't share enough about the need for that and when you have examples that are emerging right now in terms of organizations voluntarily saying well we're going to send our employees home and let them work remotely. Or we're just going to shut down for a couple weeks to suppress this curve. These are small acts of heroism and community donation because it's not convenient for these people to be taken away from what they need to do. So I think there's an opportunity to communicate the opposite of the weaponized non truth facts. I don't have, I don't have good needs but I wanted to also say that we've got the people who weaponized this information, but we've also got demonstrably in the US, a third of the people really cannot distinguish facts from fiction and aren't interested in the idea of facts and reality. So they they gravitate to, you know, things that sound dramatic instead of things that happen to be real. It's weird. And that's shockingly sadly, apparently true. I mean it's like, there's a whole bunch of people for and at the other end of that same end of the spectrum. One of the most depressing things I know to do is to go on YouTube and find Jane Leno's man on the street interviews where he holds a mic up in front of somebody and shows them something that's like fricking obvious and easy. And they have no clue. They have no idea. But then he asked them like who's Kanye West married to and they know exactly and what you know who the children are. Like, like it's not that people are stupid. Right. It's that we've been dumbed down in a series of different ways. I don't think we're inherent. I don't think humans are inherently on average, either stupid or evil. I think that we're in a situation that has driven that toward us. From World War Two, we've been trained essentially to be passive consumers and entertainment, you know, consumers, not productive. Gil then Doug. Yeah, I know people who say I can't do math and they'll rattle off baseball stats for the last 40 years. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I talked to a public health and disaster relief expert friend of mine last night. He said that in circumstances like this, people get measurably 30% stupider stupider. Well, in an unable to to absorb process handle complex information. So, you know, because it's a crisis, because their brains get jammed. Yeah, stop. And you know, some of us may have noticed there's some possibility creeping in this week. So part of this is part of this is about your mindset in the face of crisis, because if if a crisis happens and you go you drop into fear and your amygdala triggers and you're flooded with cortisol, your short term memory goes down, you like a whole bunch of bad physiological things happen. If on the other hand you can find a mindset where a crisis happens and you fall into a state of, you know, observing dispassionately what's going on, figuring out, you know, what are the forces how to react what to do. And if you can step out of it a little bit, while still being present, and come back into it, you have a complete, you have all your faculties at hand, and it's, it's very much, maybe a piece of, for Judy, maybe a piece of this is about training people to respond differently to these sorts of situations so that they can get to the place where they can think about a fact, or compare something or whatever else. Let me finish what I was going to say though. Back to Gil. Yeah. I want to challenge mindset the same way you were challenging management before. It's a body said it's mood. It's your right to say it's a it's a physiological response, not a thinking response. Yes. And so part of our challenge here is that we try to deal with these issues rationally. And it's something else in that, Judith, I like where you were going, but I want to invite us to think of a different word than, than weaponizing the good stuff. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I want to I want to build its power. And, and to that point, we need to amplify. We also enhance, amplify, nurture, etc. We also need to talk about power in this conversation. We're not going to persuade that 30% you talk to or certainly not persuade the Fox News, you know, reporters or owners, they have economic interest in doing certain things. They have, they are doing things to maintain and grow power. I've been thinking about this and you know, Ken and I were talking about this this week and I realized that I've grown up averse to power. I like how I see power exercised in my society. So I decided the power was bad. And I think this is pervasive among the progressives in the United States, when in fact power is a necessary to accomplish what we want to do and we have to talk about the whole topic for a new IJB call. It's a big topic and I have a couple of topics I want to talk with you about because like, you know, I'm thinking about how do you look at Coronavirus and climate crisis together. Where do you go with that so let's talk offline about topics or maybe invite everybody to suggest topics if you'd like. That sounds tremendous. I love that. Doug, then Judy, then Michael. Okay, back to the Jay Leno interviews. Yeah, people like us. Fact is not what the people he's interviewing mean by fact. And our meaning of fact tends to the technocratic and the academic. And it might be that the people that Jay Leno is interviewing are closer to the emotional reality about living in a big society than we are. I just want to say that that we've got to cut through the kind of meaning of fact that that the people voted against with Hillary Clinton. I'm, yeah, I'm hearing you and I want to go deeper into that as well, including what you said on the management issue. I work off the world word economy a lot, as you know, and economy for the Greeks meant household or a state management and the no most meant management. What's fascinating is the no most part of economy in earlier Greek meant equal distribution. The idea of law only emerges if there's something you need to fight against and the tendency towards unequal distribution was emerging in Athenian society. So no most is the attempt to push equal distribution and it was done in the distribution of land for the grazing of cattle. And the idea that each person should have an equal share and capital and the etymology of capital goes back to cattle as you've said before as well. Yeah, right. Caput was ahead of cattle because caput is head. So that capitalism is has to do with the management of agricultural resources very interesting. But the I think the going back to no most as equal distribution is a real resource for where we're going. And just to say on the management side. We either think that we distribute wealth through markets or through bartering. In fact, the societies that you were describing do it by group decision as to what the distribution ought to be. Right, which has many different, which has lots of different faces like in the Algonquin tribe, the elder women of the tribe would distribute any surplus from the longhouses to whoever needed it that was their role. What's the tradition there of different ways of distributing into the population rather than just into the economy. Yes. And then we've become convinced we've been sold the idea that markets are the most markets and pricing are the most efficient means of distribution that is a that is a cornerstone of the belief set that takes us into capitalism. Judy, if you still want to jump in and then Michael, we've also been told that if we don't go shopping the terrorists will have one. You know, that was that was W's advice after 911 go shopping. If you don't shop, then people lose their jobs and they can't buy more stuff to do more shopping. Right. I think that the, I wanted to comment on the dimension of humanizing this because I think that the opportunity to create dendritic transfer of value is in shared experiences dealing specifically with the situation. I've been on one with people and sharing coping skills and sharing reasonable responses and responsible responses and and enveloping in the community the procedures to do those. And as an example, because of my daughter's biological earning and some of the stuff that was happening in her Institute, I took the information to an art center nonprofit that's an educational organization that has lots of people coming in and out to do painting pottery etc. And they decided to close for two weeks pending. What comes next, and let people work from home do their art at home support those activities for connecting, but not have hundreds of people in and out of the building every day. Some of whom just walked the door through the door and said gee I'm just back from Europe, you know, and so I think that there's the opportunity for every individual to be catalytic in this social networking that's positive. And we need to think individually, what can I do that's effective in that mode. I'm trying to absorb and marinate and what you just said Judy, that's lovely. Michael. Yeah, just about three things real quick. We had talked about metaphors and I put in the chat. So I actually met the other Michael but go ahead Michael. That's fair. Yeah, Michael Linton. Thank you. No man is an island. Well, right this minute we all are in women too. And then we find out we are. Yeah, and they find out basically that what we thought of as our channels of communication of vectors of vulnerability. Really, we have big problems because we've forgotten how to communicate. So the opportunity seems to be stark and immediate and that is learn to cooperate and cooperate with an island. And here I'm drawing on the concept of a good country that is not just a nation state out to school everybody else to the personal advantage but is thinking what is my island importing exporting in terms of crap problems footprint. I'm bringing waste in that I can't deal with. I'm causing waste somewhere else. So islands in our archipelago is, I think, the model of no management. No man is an island. Cute. Well, swing it where you can buy. That's right. I'm going for the, the issue of that we've developed tools like zoom and other interpersonal communication tools to operate at a high level of technology and a wide level of distribution usually it's to offset the fact that we're in different worlds time zones and situations. Now, can that technology which has been well developed but hardly found something useful to do. We brought down to the community level. So, for instance, in my own community, we have a project for community planning, which is eight little regions in our, our city, city of 25,000. If we are unable to meet together, how should we meet. Well, I would say, obviously, by something like zoom. And a clustered set of communication media that enable people to do the sort of the connection on the fly and with real issues of a new agora capacity. So I'm making a provision, the proposition to companies like zoom and author. They participate in a process of curation, supporting the development of local community application of zoom author and things like that. You mean donating their services to communities for community services or do you mean re architecting their services for some for a more distributed approach. Could be all of those. I think I'm supporting the development of these architectures. Yeah. Level, which I could see them doing by sponsoring with access, for instance, I'm going for 12 pro accounts for a year that I can offer to my city council. I think there's a lot of rethinking that needs to needs to happen here. So, in many different ways. I really suggest that seeking to persuade the third of society that are currently in talks country is is a useless process persuasion will not work. Effectiveness, effectiveness that communicates benefit will work in situation where competition is clearly feelings and if you put competition for communities, we will kill ourselves very fast. Co-operate. Yeah, this is a better opportunity than we've had for awful long time, and it's not going to be the last opportunity in the next decade so You're what you just said planted an idea in my head, which is this is a really terrific moment to propose and and amplify new measures of well being because what we're seeing is the Dow is plunging markets around the world or crashing. And we all think that the health of the health of the earth is in crisis and dying when in fact what's happening is we're going home figuring out what now what do we do. And we're some of us reconnecting doing other stuff like I think I don't think that that necessarily mirrors what's happening in the world at other levels. I mean clearly supplies systems are going to be interrupt. Yeah, but how do we promote other measures of wellness that are bottom up that are local and distributed. You've got to do it though. Until the action is there. There's nothing to measure. Yeah, when just taking place is measured. It's experienced. It is the interconnectivity of people who are basically collaborating on the fly. Great. And if we don't have to collaborate on the fly. We're going to crash and burn. Mike Nelson, did you want to jump in. Yeah, just a few quick points we were talking earlier about analogies and whether to use the word management. I've been doing internet policy for 30 years and I've always used the analogy between gardening and forestry and gardening you plan it all and you pull out all the weeds and you know exactly what goes in and where it's supposed to go. Forestry is supposed to be about maintaining a healthy ecosystem and letting the different plants grow according to what's best for the soil and the particular micro climate they're in. And that's that's what I think we're going to see a lot of as we go forward here with the online world. Every two weeks I would be in a group called net for neighbors, and we're trying to answer the question that Michael Linden was just asking. How do we use the internet and online technology more effectively to mobilize people at the hyper local level. Our punchline is it's easier to have 15 people playing a video game in seven countries and five time zones than it is to mobilize the people that live within two blocks of me to go clean up the park on Saturday morning. And that's partly because people are on different platforms. It's partly because elderly people don't trust it. Often young people are protected from using some of the tools that we are supposed to use to get together so there's there's some really interesting things that we might sort out here. On our call yesterday we found out that the Europeans are freaking out about having primary and secondary schools online because they have incredibly strict rules on how to use images of children. And if you're going to have a Skype call with, you know, 15 kids, somebody's collecting all these pictures and voices of kids and you have to get presumably you're supposed to get permission to do that. But the other thing I wanted to weigh in on is, as I think we could see some really good outcomes as people wake up and realize they can do things. It totally different. And I'm thinking of the universities I used to teach at Georgetown and we were pioneers in using online capabilities and every so often when we had a snow day we would do a Skype session. Small groups work pretty well. But what's exciting is that I think we're going to see a lot more mooks. People are the second tier third tier, small liberal arts colleges aren't going to have to offer so many classes if kids can get a much better experience by having a mook with one of the best professors in the world. The other thing that's going to radically change I think is the conference business. I went to the Washington Convention Center yesterday on Wednesday, and they had just announced that they are closing down. And so this major satellite conference and a pretty large conference on digital identity, we're going to end today early. And a lot of people were wondering, why did we do this. And I think a number of conferences are going to go out of business. Because often, you know, everything is built around the annual cycle you got to get your money from your sponsors and you got to get people to sign up and one of the biggest ones is the International Studies Association, which is an academic conference that's supposed to start in Hawaii next next week. And they've put it out there they've said look if we don't meet we're out of business the whole thing closes down and collapses. And a lot of the scholars have spent their entire travel budget to go to this meeting. It may be that we find out how to do things like ICANN is doing this week. The Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers did their first virtual global meeting. Thousands of people participating in all sorts of different small groups and actually making it work pretty well. And so I want to go right back to the middle thing you said I think about MOOCs like. So the call that I was on with Nancy White and a bunch of other people yesterday was in Zoom, and we were talking about there's a whole bunch of tool sharing and idea sharing right now about how do we take the world online and how do we do this well. And people are rushing into Zoom, which has its limitations. A guy that I've known about for a long time, whom I've only recently started talking to is Lucas Chiaffi, and he's built on his own as a little side hustle. He's built something called Kiko Chat, which basically wraps itself around Google Docs in Zoom and lets you do an open space online so that you can basically have breakout sessions. You can label the breakout sessions and automagically a Google Doc is assigned to each breakout and it's connected online so you can see it together. And part of the problem in the call yesterday with Nancy was she hadn't made enough Google Docs for the breakout she wanted to send people off to. So she was kind of stuck and each of the groups was like looking for their, it was a tiny hiccup and Lucas has a tiny answer. But I'm sitting here going, all right, all this stuff is only half fledged at this point. We do not understand and you can go over to World of Warcraft and you can go over to Call of Duty and Dota and whatever else. And usually, you know, massively multiplayer games are kind of on the lead on some of these things, but I don't know how much of what they're doing. I would pull into the world we're talking about, which is how do we relieve the fabric of society? How do we do both large scale conferencing and thinking and pitching about stuff and also get the community people to clean up the local park, you know, in a kind of a common medium. I'm fascinated by this question. I would say one thing that's been missing in this conference tools is the ability for people to go off on the side. You know, the two of us can go and have a side conversation and chat, but that's very distracting. What we want to do is have a way after this is all done that we can seamlessly go to a video conference with two or three of us in the hallway. Exactly. And one of the things that Lucas's Kiko chat does. Well, a feature it adds to zoom. For example, in zoom, it's pretty easy to send people off to breakouts, but the people can't move themselves between breakouts. So there's no law. So there's no law of two feet from open space. Lucas adds that feature. So all of a sudden you can move yourself to a different breakout. That's a tiny thing, but it's an important thing. And it's a really important thing if you're talking about trusting people and like, like the dynamics of how we operate together as we move things into cyberspace. It's going to be huge. I'll add one last thing and then I'll go to Gil. And the last thing is that I'm starting to realize that maybe my big tent is open global mind, because that's always been my my own project name in my head for what's after the brain. How do we all collaborate together? And, and from my perspective, importantly, how do we get a collective memory? How do we get a collective mind so that we can make sense of the world together? Right. How does that work? So I'm, I'm sort of about to do many more things under open global mind, probably move inside Jerry's brain calls into it, whatever that means, and figure all that out. But, but, you know, I will ping all of you with, with what that is as it unfolds, which is sort of imminent. So now Gil. Yeah. Guy, this is so rich. So global collective memory, we have Jerry's brain. That's the starting point. Which is not a collective memory. Just me. Yeah. So how do we extend that? You know, pluralistic networks is using World of Warcraft as a team building and, and, you know, culture training. Yeah. A way to practice in that space and where you can die and start over again, rather than risk dying in a real meeting where your job's on the line. Responding so much easier. You know, the tools that we're using now were designed out of a different set of needs and perceptions of needs and, you know, zoom does a really good job of what it's trying to do, but it wasn't asking the questions that you were asking. And the mural asking here. So the question is, do we, you know, can we build those onto existing tools or can they provide, you know, open API's that enable those kind of add ons to do that. Or, does somebody invent the next generation of these things that allows for the emergence and then open global mind and those sorts of things, something like that has to happen. I mean, I think about this conference question, I, I'm part of my living going to speak at conferences. You know, in the last two weeks, I've had three invitations for key notes and two conferences cancel out from under me, and I know that business is over. Pretty much. So I have to run out at least now, but I have to reinvent a different way of engaging people. I mean, this is delightful, but I also need to do it in a way that's remunerative. Well, you know, how do we do that. And how do we make up for the loss of not just the walk in the hallway but the walk in the woods, the, you know, the beers at the bar, the pheromones in the room when we're physically together. You know, in what, you know, in what's really, you know, physical distancing, we can, we can, you know, can have so social connectivity, we're going to lose something in the physical universe because we are, we are creatures in bodies. Little, little bags of meat. We're little bags of highly diluted meat. Yeah, full of water. And, and, and most of what we call thinking is happening in that bag, not here. And we don't yet have ways of having the full richness of that online. That's, that's waiting to be generated invented somehow brought forward this time. Totally agree. I'd like to give the floor to Gary for a little bit because he and I have had some conversations about the shape of this he's working on a big piece of this has been for a long time. And, and I am fascinated and we're sort of trying to do a mind-develop through this process and it's, it's kind of exciting. Yeah, thanks. I don't want to say too much about this but responding to what we just had that this idea of yes, there is Jerry's brain but as soon as Jerry's brain can be set. I mean, alongside the key data or any other other commonly understood sources, and as people have their own interpersonal conversation or interest around, then they, then they can read any of those as anchors. It's an amazing thing because basically that is already recorded. So we, there is always the notability criteria and the, and what we really care about. And whatever is notable, notable is, is 50 years away from where we are. Really great ideas. It takes 50 years for them to actually appear in the common consciousness. So I really think I think you're right. We really very close with this because this is really brewing for so many years. It has. It's been cooking for a long time. I mean, it is just been listening to Craig store Bitcoin. I mean, he's, he's been at that very problem for 30 years, and there's nothing new in Bitcoin. All those things that make it up. It's been done, you know, decades ago or all these ideas. It just takes so long. I'm the very idea of knowledge class that we're talking about a graph. I'm the whole notion of index we adjacency is ancient, you know, it just takes 50 years for it to be accepted. I mean, we don't try, we don't try to do anything new compared to what that man zombie talking about and look that look to be crazy for 50 years. There's nothing new. If you could just do what he have visited 50 years ago, it would be a happy, happy world. It's astonishing the number of people who are motivated by Vannevar Bush's memex idea. Right. Like, like he described this thing wrote a paper about it and there's like 80 people I can point to whose lives have been affected by memex. Yes. And this is just associated, but it's not just thinking I just discovered myself very recently that really the at the four at this is the people connecting people. So the ideas, the ideas secondary to the people who, who are engaged in articulating that the citizens and then through symbol sharing, you know, it's really people matter because they are all the source and we really need to turn this whole internet upside down in the sense and make each individual a hope to itself to be to be interoperable and connect to to any other. Yeah, yeah. Which is happening in the distributed web, which is clearly a subject of an IDB call at some point we gotta gotta gotta dip into that Judy. Yes, thank you very much. Oh, thank you. Glad you're here. Judy are muted. So we see you gesticulating and speaking and it looks interesting, but we don't know yet. And now you're stuck. You can't find the mute button. There. Got it. Sorry. I think that there's one of my favorite words as you know is dendritic. But I think we in this room right now have the opportunity to take the most constructive things that come out of this and other conversations. Add to those the tools that we individually and collectively have seen or that we are developing and be be part of the hub of a dendrite that shares this. And I think that's could be a really exciting outcome because you can go dendritic both in the social media sense, but we can also go get dendritic by taking whatever it is wisdom that we're generating from our collective small group and sharing it physically in person with people in our own community. Yeah, and develop new dendrites. They just keep going. So it becomes almost like a mycelium of a whole social network of humanity. That's, that's really enormous. I know I'm optimistic, but I think people are pretty cool people. You know, there's just a lot of good people and I think we need to tap those people. And the word that I use a lot is hyphae, which is kind of the mycelial equivalent of dendrites, which is the hyphae are the hyphae that the little tips of mycelium that are working their way through the soil connecting up with others, etc. And there's, there's, it's lovely that there's these echoes of process that echo underground in the mycelium networks in our minds and between our heads and dendrites and the other things that make up collective consciousness. And in the shape of the universe as a whole and sort of the energies that contain it. These are all kind of recursive models in some sense. I think that the piece that's really important though, is that we're not good right now as individuals and humans that connecting to global consciousness as an organism. And what we need to do is enhance our ability to do that by physical proximity to other humans and active interneural transfer and all the other things that are going on to reinforce the development of that genetic path for ourselves. It sounds bizarre, I know, but you're muted Jerry. If I can just emphasize totally agree. This is the difficulty we just articulated about the lack of face to face in the corridor connectivity that experience of being together. We're never going to find on zoom on an international system. We're going to find that in our own communities, which have been eroded for the last 50 years by the economic model process. We're forced into these potential communications, which are going to be exacerbated by their isolation again for a while so we bring these techniques to a place where the energy can rise inside communities to show how this can be the organizing principle, the connectivity. Connect and act is the only thing that will give the result the result is the only thing some use useful to measure. Can then go throw a pitch back in here for something I've talked about other calls, which is in the early 90s when I first moved to California. Because every year I'd spend about two weeks with Joanna Macy on different retreats as part of the Buddhist Peace Fellowship and so this was the early versions of her work that we next and I experienced working with beings in deep time for the first time back in 1992. So there were about 120 of us at a remote campground up in Northern California, we formed two big circles of 60 people facing other and the people on the inside were people who were living 5000 years from now. And the first question they asked and the people who are on the outside were people who are living today. And the first scenario is the world is terrible in 5000 years, and the people in the inner circle are facing us and saying, What did you guys do to screw it up so badly. And we had to actually give an answer. And I got to tell you when that pose pose to you in this vast outdoor space around redwoods and is there's this young person in my 30s. It has a, it shakes something was you connected something larger than yourself. And then we would shift and go to another person and then the next scenario was the world is actually working really well. And the question is what did you guys do so that it's working well. And these may sound like kind of who exercises but I really do believe there is a field of intelligence that you can connect to through these kinds of exercises in this larger intelligence that is incredibly connected to us to the earth itself. Another one of joining us pieces was was going out and doing something called the kind of morning. So you went out into nature and found a rock. You sat in the in the wilderness for a while, and you thought of something that's leaving the earth something that you're personally connected to that you have grief for. And then you come back in the circle and each person where it's time to go up and put their rock no circle and say this rock stands for that are being slaughtered every day, you know, and that's why it hurts my heart. And after everybody had compiled had spoken. Everybody would say, I hear you as soon as you spoke about speaking the group would say I hear you, we hear you. And then we sat and sounds a little bit and the first circle was the circle reporting so you can get up and walk around and say, I'm in 15 minutes, a man rapes a woman in the United States. Every minute a football field disappears from the rainforest in South America, whatever your informational overload is all this data that we carry around. And again the response is we hear you. And then if you wanted to you could move the next inner circle which is the circle of emotions and it's like, I'm just really fucking angry I get I can't believe we're doing this and again, we hear you. Every circle is just circle of emoting where you just simply, you know, weep or scream or whatever you want to do. And if you're moved by that but can actually generate for yourself you go up and put your hand on somebody who was doing that so you can be in solidarity with them. And I did this a few times. And every time we do it. We'd all end up on on the ground is pile of snot and tears and sobs. And it would subside and there'd be this silence and then someone would say something and someone would say something back to you funny and the whole group would laugh. And Joanna said that every time she did this, that always happened. There was this moment of followed by a moment of giggles. And that on the other side of despair there's giggles and that's the reconnection to source that allows us to come back into the world after you've moved through our despair with resources to say, now we're going to go out there and we're going to do what it takes to make it better. So these are the technologies that I think need to be really widely spread and I have no idea how to do them online. Although I understand there are some work that reconnects people who are doing it in online venues. So I just want to throw that out there as a potential. That's lovely. Ken, thank you. Thank you a lot for sharing that and several times during this call. Elegant points have been made that this isn't just about ideas and intelligence and brain and what even if we extend that to mind which I think of as different from brain. But that this is somatic. This is emotional. This is connective in other ways that must be present and represented that must happen here. So I need to sink into that more I need to probably do some of the work, and I'm trying to figure out how do I incorporate that into open global mind as a process because if that's my tent. I want to draw attention to these facts and build them in right bake them in somehow. So thank you for that and everybody and anybody who's got ideas send me send me messages or whatnot and I think I need to structure a call or two around this particular topic, Judy. Especially like that last sentence we do need to structure talks around this, but I also think that sharing examples as can did is one, and I have a friend who I was working with about closing this art center, and the disruption, long story short, she And then at the end of the labyrinth, what came to her was her great-grandparent who came over from Europe with a bag in his hand and steerage and the personal courage of her family roots that can be brought into the present for dealing with the situation potential loss, etc. of our current times. And so I, I'm a believer in this collective consciousness universe that's time insensitive, etc. And I think there's an opportunity to reinforce that for each other and to share sort of the docible window of that insight with other people. If you jump way too far from where they are right now, they have trouble with it. If you humanize it and say, yesterday I walked the labyrinth. It's a whole different experience. And we're weaving a couple of those little dendrites here now. Gil. We're, we're starting to talk about the story of story, which I think is another topic to come back to. I was evoked by what Michael said and what Ken said, and Ken very moved by what you shared. And, and very challenged because the ability to collapse into a pile of people and hug and cry and laugh together is fundamental to who we are. It's part of what we've been for, you know, hundreds of thousands if not millions of years and that's not available to us. And for all the things that we're talking about nurturing here that, at least for now, but we don't know how long now is is not available. I've had Friday night dinner. My family said Friday night dinners with my sister's family every Friday night for the past 30 some odd years. She canceled it tonight. You know, I understand I'm really sad. So I'm struck. I'm struck that at a challenge that we have in time here we have to do certain things urgently and quickly. And certain things are going to take a long time, or an unknown amount of time. And so I'm just feeling, I'm just noticing the challenge of that. And what does that mean how do we live in that physically and how do we understand which is which. Because there's some things that if we try to rush will make a real mess. And there's some things that we do too slowly will be a disaster. And, and I'm just finding myself right now in this moment in a kind of profound not knowing that I don't usually experience just like it's blank I don't know, even have to think about this. First, I hear you go. That's beautiful. Thank you and Ken. And second, let's just go into silence for a little bit with that. Thank you very much. This is, this is lovely. And thank you all for this call I feel we're rejuvenated and reconnected to you and a bunch of other things so I'm right now marshaling. What is what is. How does all this stuff fit together and how do we move forward into these spaces. And I think this conversation has really reorganized some of those some of the answers to those questions. Any closing words. Logistical question. Are you going to be recording available and are you doing these every week at this time. Yes, on the form on the former question because I'm thinking that's it's I've been recording and my custom with insiders brain calls is to post them to YouTube so yes, they're all meant to be they're all meant to be open. I haven't planned this to be a standing call but I could do something like that that would totally work. And I, I'm realizing I need to come back into doing a bunch of calls. I may I may restructure these as open global mind, instead of insiders brain. Whatever it's it'll be a similar call although I'm very open. I'm extremely open to experimenting with different formats for calls. I think I think we're kind of trapped inside the tools Lucas is offered to use Kiko chat if we want to do open space kind of things so he said, just you know just use it but but that then means breaking up into smaller conversations. One of the liberating structures patterns is called one two four all or whatever numbers you want but but basically what it means is it's kind of constricting to have like a webinar where there's a person on stage and a bunch of people in the audience. So a different group processes to have everybody give everybody a minute or two to reflect by themselves, then go into pairs. That's the two then go into groups of four then come back into plenary. And by the time you're back into plenary you've had more intimate conversations, your ideas are deeper and you're able to have a different kind of conversation and plenary so we can play with all those sorts of things. But I'll add in that I'm all too aware that that the lingua franca of our modern era is either the seven second video or the three minute video that you know between tick tock and and and our short attention spans, but I'm really interested in harvesting some of the best nuggets of what we do to put into other streams so that people who aren't going to sit through a 90 minute call would get a taste of this and be able to sort of come back and weave themselves find the dendrite to hang on to and to come into the crowd in some way. So I'd love to figure that out. I've not been tracking the chat very well because I'm on my iPad so I will read the chat after after the session because it'll it'll be in the download. Yuri, did you want to jump in? Yeah, just very briefly. Could you please send the chat in a mail straight away. Yes. If I'm missing that the other one is give up. He said was, I think it's coming back to the whole crisis that we are in in a way. This is it. Everybody feels that they really face up to it. We don't know. But that's to me that is the that is the doorway to to being there because you think you know you're not there and the as soon as you face up and if you really can be comfortable with that. Yes. That really is an opportunity. I love that. Another feature of Zoom is that if you go to the three dot icon next to the chat window, click on it. You can save the chat to your local machine. So you can do it right the second. Yeah. Yeah, but I always miss that or don't try. Don't worry. Don't worry. I'm going to email it to everybody. Yeah. Some of the things you said Jerry suggest to me that we maybe we can use these calls as a laboratory to experiment with different kinds of ways of having these kinds of calls. Yes, please. And I'm totally open to suggestions can act them out. The whole thing. So during the Obama administration, women in his cabinet found themselves often speaking and their ideas were being taken up and then 20 minutes later a man would say to everybody, oh, that's a great idea. So the women came up with this thing called amplifying and every time a woman would speak something all the other women would say, that's a great idea and they really began to push and say pay attention to this. So in the realm of paying attention, something I've been paying attention to now since last since the solstice around around the holidays as I've noticed. There have been a lot of people in my life who have spoken on the verge of tears very often about things that are meaningful that are deep that are moving in them, and they're very tentative, because they don't feel that it's safe. So let's make it safe to pay attention to people who are saying, I feel there's something broken my heart is breaking there's things going on in the world that are overwhelming me, and I can't hold it all together. And I need somebody to just listen for a minute or just be with me or don't do anything but just be in silence and appreciate that because there's too much momentum and fast moving and you know I ignore that and I think it's really important to pay attention to that and make it safe. And I love what you just said Ken and to be a geek about it a little bit. I can easily think of an affordance that lets us tag conversations we want to have later with people we meet in larger forums this is a tiny forum but it's not to people. But it would be very interesting to make very easy sitting and having smaller chats later with people in, you know, meet in you meet in larger spaces, which would include, hey, I noticed you were having a really hard time in the meeting, let's go for a virtual walk in the forest. Right. To leave that at hand to make the offer easy to make to make the walk in the forest easy to take to to remove affordances so that the walk in the forest is not as as as technologically simple as possible. All of that is an aspect of an app that somebody needs to build. I love your geekiness cherry I really do. I can geek out sometimes. Thank you. Doug. Yeah, just I want to come back to the idea that the virus crisis is time bound, but the climate change crisis is not time bound. Yeah, something we're going to have to live in through, and it's actually much worse. I hope we can learn from the coronavirus issues to deal with climate change better, but I think the climate change is going to swamp us in a way that the virus is not to take a to bounce off your question off what you just said, Doug. I think that a major obstacle toward conservative liberal cooperation in the next period is going to be the perception by conservatives that once they let the camel's nose under the tent by agreeing that science might might matter and might help us solve the coronavirus that this is like, oh my God, then we've then we've lost the game on climate change and everything else. I'm trying to figure out what are the measures that can create a safety for that process. How does that play out. How do we make it so that, in fact, we can all cross the bridge together and like science the shit out of solving for climate change and everything else, and, you know, build community around it as well. So something like that. You were holding up your hand a moment ago. Not like, Mike, I'm going to call you Mike and Michael Michael. Are you good. Me. Yes. Okay. Thank you. The ending of over story is where one of the main protagonist lets the gaming that has been the building of his online empire into the real world. Does anybody who hasn't said anything during the call want to jump in. I noticed Bo you've just joined or you've been on for a while and haven't noticed of all this. Others were good. So I will post the video. It'll take me a couple hours to rescue the Mac and get back in business but I'll send out the chat I'll do all that and then get back into this rhythm because this has been inspiring I really appreciate you all and thank you. Have a safe weekend. Thank you everybody. And see you online soon. Thanks guys.