 So we're here in Shenzhen, here with the Libre computer and these are all the boards that you have right now on the market, right? Yes, currently we've done three kick starters to basically create these development boards using off-the-shelf chips that are available on the market. So we currently have three solutions. The first solution is the Hemlogic S905X and in this board we basically upstream a lot of silicon support in mainline Linux and Uboot with our partners in Bay Libre so that people can sort of use these as Linux IoT devices or edge computing devices. And then these... So you upstream, you get all the Linux stuff up there? Yes, so... What did you upstream for example? So for example, just in terms of this device tree and various drivers for HDMI, USB and Ethernet and there's a lot of also community members who provide a support for various drivers on this SOC including like the Ethernet PHY, like USB and USB OTG, all the GPIO like SPI and then all the functionality on the board that previously wasn't exposed. So vendors usually have a BSP and they are based on a really old version of Linux which is not suitable for a lot of applications, especially in today where security is sensitive and people need to keep as close to upstream as possible. So we sort of help the community or have the community... It's both ways so we help the community and the community helps us upstream support for these boards and provide a sort of development solution on these chip technologies that are available. How much is that one for sale for? So this one is for sale for $35 for the 1G and then it's for the 2G is $45 on the US market. So people can just buy it on Libre.computer? Yes, we have distributors and then you can also buy these on Amazon. They are readily available along with various different accessories. So which one was the first one you did? This was our first Kickstarter which raised about $60,000. We did a second Kickstarter for this one which gained about $20,000 but it was a quick short Indiegogo campaign. And then we have the all winner solution here. This is based on Rockchip so Rockchip 3228. This has DDR4 which is really expensive nowadays but it's really fast and it has USB 3.0 and gigabit ethernet and two USB ports. So this one is just a bunch of USB 2? Yes, so this is USB 2 with 100 megabit. Yes, four USB but there's only two channels. One is distributed, three of the USB ports share a hub chip because there's only two USB hosts on this. These two are both 4K60 boards capable of doing VP9, H265 and H264 decode as well as this one can do dual 720p encodes. So they're used for a lot of different new applications involving video. And then you can hook up a UBC camera that works with Mainline Linux and basically have an IP video solution using these ports. What kind of Linux can people run on these? Since we upstream support in Mainline Linux, you can run Debian, you can run Ubuntu, you can package it up with any sort of distribution that uses Linux. Yes, you can use it with pretty much any solution. There's not really any limit. Do people have preferences with the smaller, more compact Linuxes sometimes? You can do build routes, you can do Yachto on this board. We haven't done Yachto on this board yet but Rockchip has done a lot of support for this specific board on the upstream portion of the open source projects. So there's good Linux on that one? So these are all based on good upstream software support SOCs. They basically can all run Mainline with the exception of probably the video decoder. So 3D, Wayland, the whole nine yards. ARM recently released the Utgard libraries for Highkey which can be used with these. Is that Mali GPU drivers? Yes, so they can be used with upstream kernel with a few patches. Nice, so that means any Mali device? Not just these but any Mali device has OK Linux support with Mali stuff? Yeah, so the recently released Mali 7.0 for Highkey, they have a license that allows you to distribute that binary with any ARM board. These are based on the Mali 450s and the 450s are the Utgard generation and these are supported by that binary. So you just need a couple of hooks into the Mainline Linux patches onto Mainline Linux to drive these for Wayland or some other application. What are you doing in here? So this is based on the Raspberry Pi form factor. So you have all the UARTs GPIO, SPI and other functionality on here. It includes some I2S functionality. So this board actually has additional I2S pins as well as UART. This has ADC. So this is almost standard with Raspberry Pi. You can pretty much use most hats. So unlike some other board vendors, we do as close to pin to pin as possible for the alternate functionality on the pins. So same place, is it so Raspberry Pi kind of design or what do you say? Yeah, so this form factor is entirely based on the Raspberry Pi form factor because one of our partners has designed numerous products for Raspberry Pi family and we want to reuse all that work that's been put into this form factor both by the community and by Raspberry Pi Foundation. So what products, for example? Like cases, various hats, like additional storage devices, audio devices that go on the hat. Is it easy to power one of these off power bank? Yes, so this one's especially low power because the chip used is S905X which is used by a lot of TV boxes. And in Shenzhen, they have been building the TV boxes for ultra low cost, which means that the power supplies need to be extremely sort of efficient, low power. And then at idle, this thing, if you don't have video on, will use less than about 130 mA at 5 volts, which means it can consume extremely low amounts of power for a quad-core A53. So you can use a 1A power bank, like any power bank. Yeah, pretty much. Just plug it into there in the micro USB, that's the charge. Yeah, at full load, yes, at full load running like a synthetic benchmark, this board will consume less than 4 watts. And then this one's slightly more power hungry, but it's not that power hungry. What it brings to the table is Superfast USB 3, so this can actually achieve near the bandwidth limit of USB 3. Is it gigabit? Yeah, along with gigabit. And how about the price on that one? This one is $40 for the 1GIG, so this is 35, this is 40. The video codec support on this one is slightly better than the ROCK chip, but the ROCK chip is steadily improving. And so both of these solutions, it depends on what you're looking for. If you're looking for like a really low power solution, go with this one. If you're looking for a higher end, like say USB NAS solution, you would go with this one. And you set it to 44... For 1 gigabyte. For 1 gigabyte, how about you have 2? 2 gigs is $50, and then 4 gigs is $80. Right now, the limitation is the DDR-core that's being used. So one of these chips alone costs nearly $10, $10 US dollars. So if you put 4 gigs, your RAM is around $40 already. That's not including the rest of the manufacturing cost. That's why Samsung made such great quarterly results recently. Yes. And I guess this is not the one. This is the SK Hynix. Yeah, so these are all using top of the line memory. Whereas other vendors use lower speed memory, we use the highest available memory. So this one is actually running at 2133. This one's running at 2133 DDR4. Whereas other vendors will use 1866 DDR. Nice. So we don't cut down quality in terms of our board. So if you compare other boards, the PCB manufacturing, they use very low quality PCBs. We use basically the highest quality components available. So how about there's a microSD card slot right here, which you can fit 256 or? Yeah, so microSD card is sort of standard. You can support any microSD card size that's on the market. There's a lot of issues. People don't understand the difference between FAT32 and XFAT. And XFAT is needed for over 32 gigabytes. But you would flash the images onto here, and these will support any... There's no chip there. This is DDR as well. Some more DDR. Yeah, so you have Raspberry Pi, which uses LPDDR, which is one chip for the entire board. We use standard DDR, which is faster than LPDDR in most situations. So basically it's much better than Raspberry Pi, right? Yeah, so performance-wise, it depends on what you're looking for. Raspberry Pi is also good. Very good. They spent a lot of effort optimizing the cost structure of that. But it's still using LPDDR2, which is much slower, and then still using 40 nanometer process for the chips. So the power consumption, especially on the Raspberry Pi B+, is much higher than these boards, by factors of 50 on top of this board and by a factor of 3 on this board. So a Raspberry Pi 3 will use around 2 amps at full load. This one will use 0.7 at full load. This one will run at 1 amp-ish. So it's better to have a 2A power bank for that one? Yes. How about the... So MicroUSB can only support... It was designed to support 1.8 amps. When you're running more than 1.8 amps, you run into voltage issues, like you get with the ASUS Tinker board or the Raspberry Pi 3. You know, everybody sources special power supplies. But with these, you can use front-of-the-mill power supplies like your phone charger, and you won't have any issues with power supply stability. Only when you use super cheap $2 power supplies that come from, I hate to say, China, but that you order off... We're in China. I don't know. That you order off... China's great. Yeah. That you order off AliExpress, where it's basically 250 milliamps, and they mark it as 2.5 amps. Those power supplies will not work for obvious reasons. But stability-wise, you can pretty much use any reliable power supply from any vendor, like including your cell phone chargers from any phone in the last three years or five years. When you buy one of these, do you get the charger with it? No. So you just use any charger you want. You have... How about the... This is quite powerful. It's a quad-core A17. It's kind of a power... It's not a small... It's not a small performance. So this is... It's quite a lot higher than A53, right? This is actually both of these... Both of these... Yeah, so these are the RK3328. We're not using out-of-order because out-of-order just consumes way too much power for this form factor. You're going to run to heat issues if you put an A17 in a case. I'm going to make stuff as 3288, that's another... Yeah, 3288 is the... This is 3328. Yes, correct. So you have 4K under 5 watts in 99% of use cases. So these are extremely powerful boards. And then here we have the latest Kickstarter. So these haven't been nailed out to Kickstarter. They were just finished manufacturing this week, actually. These are based on all-winner solution. The community for all-winner... The open-source community for all-winner is really healthy. It's by Linux Sunsea. So they have people all over Europe, all over the world sort of working on upstream support for these. And then Armbian has been especially good in bringing support for these boards when the vendor are not bringing support. What's the Armbian? Armbian is basically... Basically they package up Ubuntu and Debian for ARM-based boards. And they basically do the work that board vendors will not. And make it easy for user... Who are they? Just some open community? Yeah, they're by a couple people in Europe, mostly and a couple people in the United States. And they do great work bringing ease of use to ARM boards. Are these A53s too? Different amounts of cores or what's going on here? So we have three versions. So this is the most expensive version with two gigabytes with all-winner H5. Is that an octa-core? Yeah, it's a quad-core A53 built on 40 nanometers. It has a camera interface. In addition to the... These boards do not have camera interfaces. But this board has a camera interfaces. But these boards have 4K60 and UHD and H265 and all the other video goodness. Isn't the H series also for video? Yes, but this only supports HDMI 1.4 and HDCP 1.4. So this is HDMI 2. Yeah, this is HDMI 2. All of these support CBBS. This one has an additional microphone here. And this is a 100 megabit ethernet and four separate USB channels. So this has two separate USB channels plus a USB 3 channel. This has two USB channels and one of them is split off to a hub. So this one has four separate USB channels. So that's the higher end of these three? Yeah, so this is the higher end of these three. The differences between H5, H3 and our H2 board is that this comes with 512 megabytes of RAM. I mean, yeah, this one comes with 1 gig. This comes with 2 gigs and this one is also 64 bit. And the prices? The prices are... It's still in the process of being determined because... Because it's a Kickstarter price, right? Yeah, so component prices have shot up dramatically. So before the SMT components used to be like $2 or $3 for the board, now they're in the range of $8 or $9. For the RAM, you mean? Not the RAM. So RAM has increased, doubled since 2006, from about $2 to $4. 2006 or 2016? 2016, yeah. And then the passive components, they've dramatically increased this year due to supply constraint. There's too many people that want these things. Yeah, so all the passive components, like the capacitors, resistors, and the small components, it's astronomical how much they've shot up. Some components shot up by 10 volts. So before it was a couple of cents, now it's a couple of nickels. Are these the camera and all these? Yeah, so these are using the DVP camera. So it's a parallel camera interface. So you can share it with boards like the orange pie. You can use the orange pie cameras on these. What's the orange pie? Orange pie is another vendor in Shenzhen that develops boards, like really low cost boards based on all-winner and numerous other IC vendors. I've seen, I've known about the banana pies. Now there's the orange pie, too, and the raspberry pie. And which pie are you? I'm not a pie. Okay, you're not a pie. So I don't want to... You're not a pie. I want to stay away from pie-ness. Customers are free to do their own pies. That's why I'm choking. Yes. So the idea is that these are all open market components that you can source. So one of the issues with the Raspberry Pi Foundation is that the Broadcom SoC is not sourceable, and you have to go through the distributor FAEs in order to build solutions around that. And then that usually entails much higher cost than open market components that you can... You would think with all these raspberry pies they sold, they'd be pretty good with the open source stuff by now, right? The Broadcom chip. The Broadcom chip support is good, but with all ARM chips there's binary blobs. So with the Raspberry Pi specifically, they have a... Extra blobs? Yeah. So what happens is they actually start their CPU from the GPU. And then the GPU is actually a 30-bit... It can address 30 bits of the RAM. And then it's sort of like the co-processor that sort of starts the main CPU. And then that entire portion where the GPU starts is completely sealed off. So you don't know what happens. You can't tweak... So for example, you can't create your own custom camera because the firmware doesn't support it. And there's no source code for it. For all-winner boards, the community basically reverse engineered all of it. So there's nothing really... All of it? Yeah, like all of it. The GPU too. I mean in terms of the boot stuff. So there's basically no proprietary stuff in the boot portion of these three boards. So in terms of openness or libre, should I say, the all-winner solutions based on H2, H3 and H5 are by far the most open SOCs available like that have a decent amount of power and are low-cost. With these two, you still have the traditional arm-trusted firmware where a portion of it is closed off. So that is unavoidable. And we try our best, but we can only go so far in terms of sort of opening these technologies. How are they thinking of doing something else other than open the trusted firmware to have some other, what you call it, ACPI or something? Is that related? Yeah, so it will still depend on trusted firmware because the trusted firmware allows vendors to do things like HDCP, allows vendors to do things like Widevine DRM on top of Android. It's a half-open, half-closed situation where they basically close off a certain portion of the boot and the control of the SOC into a higher execution level that allows you to do secure processing of video because Netflix won't let you watch 4K if you don't have Widevine DRM or PlayReady DRM. It's basically mandated by the content industry. That's some secure firmware stuff. Yes, to have secure path for videos. They're afraid people are going to want rip DVDs, rip the streams. Yeah, so it's basically inconvenience to the users that pay for it. People are always going to be able to rip the streams. It doesn't block anything. It's just the convoluted way that the content industry... I don't think it's Netflix because the movie studio is right. Yeah, it's the content industry that mandates this which means that Netflix has to implement it. It's Disney and those people. Their model hasn't exactly caught up with modern distribution. To distribute a video online nowadays does not cost that much. But they all get a really good driver now from right of our arm for the Mali stuff. Is Mali here too? 400 or which one? Yeah, so this is Mali 450, 450, 400 and 400. They're based on the art card generation from a couple of years ago. There's an open source effort by some people to basically reverse engineer that Mali driver to build the open source version but that's still quite a bit away. But there is a community effort around that. There was a new thing recently, right? It was a Lima but now there's something else. Got the name of it. So there's Lima for... There's Lima for Mali art card. So the 4X. There's Tamali for or Tamil for the mid-card generation which is the Mali 7X and 8X and 6X. And then you have the Bitfrost, the latest stuff. So this is based on the Mali 4X which is still not open by arm. Even though the GPU is kind of like old by modern standards. How the power consumption of these compared to that one. This is a king or is this also very good with power? So these are they have a fixed voltage regulator so some all-winner solutions they have adjustable voltage on the SOCs but I think all-winner is moving away from that model to a fixed one because you have issues of like the implementation being different and causing all kinds of overheating issues. We've locked these to 1 GHz or they go up to 1 GHz but the voltage is just locked at 1.1 and 1.2 volts for these. This is like the most stable and verified setting and because we want these development boards to be reliable platforms for development we don't want people to be advertising these as 1.2 GHz or 1.3 GHz as some people advertise or even to the extreme and 1.5 GHz because these chips are 40 Nm and just flat out will not run that. And what's the Nm or these? These are 28 Nm the power consumption is slightly higher on these compared to these two but not significant enough because we limit the clock rates. So these run at this runs at 1.4 this runs at 1.5 and these are locked in at like at the top end at 1 GHz But you were talking about the power consumption here? Yeah, so this is the quite low but how about these power consumption? You can get them to about 1. something watt if you turn majority of the components Again, any 1A power bank or chargers? Yeah, so at the top end this one might consume a little bit more power but these two are similar because of the clock speed differences because this has an extra 40% more performance at the 1.4 GHz and this has at 1 GHz. Is that the DDR4 over here right? Yeah, so this one's DDR4 DDR3 and DDR3 So this DDR3 is much higher performance in these DDR3 chips because this can only go up to around 1300 MHz for the DDR frequency this one can go to 2130 What were the prices on Kickstarter for these three? So this one was $9 Yes, so it costs us a lot more to build it so it costs us in the range of $20 to build this and it costs us $20 to people Yeah, so hardware doesn't really So yeah, these are development boards How many people vote this one? I forget the numbers but we have around 1.5K of inventory booked so we manufactured 2.5K But the hardware is still below cost We even pay for some upstream support along with we also support open source companies I mean projects teams across the world How do you do that too? Yeah, so we give away free hardware also we sponsor some projects like for example or upstreaming specific components we actually spend money on doing that and the money we spend on software exceeds the amount of Kickstarter funds that we raised So we're basically giving away more software than hardware at this point but this is love of mine So you're a philanthropist Something like that How about this Masayoshi's son or an old winner or a rock chip or Amlogic, what are they doing to help you? Not much They're giving you the chips, right? I don't buy from them, I buy from resellers but Right now this is like I have a vision of where computing is going and these are just sort of the baby steps to get there When did you start all this stuff? Shinzen So, Shinzen is a fun place because it's where all makers sort of this is the heaven of makers You can buy components for really really cheap here and you can build your idea from scratch How long have you been coming here? I've been coming here for about a year and a half and then So this is a new, we were computers new? Yes, so this is a very new project So that was like last year and this is now? Yeah, so this was, we started fundraising I think in September of last year and I delivered these to Kickstarter backers It was like six months ago you started? Yeah, so this one was a cooperative effort between me and my organization and another company called T-Chip which manufactures this board and then they have an open source initiative as well and then we partner with T-Firefly guys, right? Yeah, that's the T-Firefly guys and they're really cool guys as well and they manufacture a lot of different solutions for consumers They have some 3399 stuff going on Yes, they have a lot of stuff that's very interesting What type C? You're not doing any type C yet So we have an entire roadmap of products coming in 2018 and 2019 and they're going to be really innovative computing concepts These are sort of just testing the waters You're just getting started basically? Yes, this is getting started So I think we we've done a pretty good job getting started Although we did the Kickstarter rewards for these were slightly delayed and we do apologize to the backers for that So sorry We're working out You'll get them We're solving all sorts of different logistical issues but you'll get them You'll get them at a very good discount So you're getting them at a very good $9 $9 is cheaper than a coffee over here Starbucks Just to say It's like a third the price of a Pizza Hut And then this one The price was around This one was $19, this was $29 So this board currently costs around $40, $35 to $40 to build This one costs around I think it's $10 Not $10, like $6 less So like $30 some dollars But once the volume kicks in the prices can start going down on these components I think it'd be so cool like I'm not gonna We're still filming I think it'd be cool if sometime in the future there'll be just a type C and that's it It'll be as compact as possible Just the chip, the type C Yes, so we have solutions like that in the works It'll be here in a couple of months So we just want to redo the whole computer and microserver concepts because we have a sort of a vision of where that industry is headed including like cloud and all that other funny business with computing so we hope to apply computing everywhere and then we also have smaller boards coming too soon that are much lower power and much lower cost that you can use for IOT like true IOT solutions And you didn't want to do the 96 boards because they don't they don't allow for so many USBs and stuff and this different size and what do you think about the 96 boards? Leonardo's 96 boards they've done a lot of innovative stuff for like the silicone manufacturers so we're on the consumer so the target market and product is very differentiated from what they're targeting that's why we didn't choose their sort of standard for doing this but Leonardo does a lot of good work for the higher end like for example Hikey and Hikey 960 in the upcoming 970 and RK3399 and you just said that it kind of like maybe helped a little bit in terms of the Mali drivers this Hikey board right? so the Hikey board really helped in terms of the Mali drivers getting armed to push out the Mali drivers it is a big deal because without that you can't run Wayland which is the upcoming sort of display protocols of the future so X11 is on its way out and I think Ubuntu 1804 was released today and with that comes support of Wayland I know they backtracked on Wayland from 1710 but we're really interested because Wayland allows us to use OpenGLES to expose critical features of the board and allow these boards to really shine because of Wayland display protocol and we're really really excited for that so how many people in the world are there buying development boards and are there a bunch of people doing business with them like they buy them and they put them in like what do you call those commercial signage or some other kind of commercial things how many of the customers are either like tinkering or doing business so we're mostly focused on the tinkers because we want to have this product line up completed before we do volume production so volume production is on the order of like 50k a month so we should start that in Q3 we should have we will have mass manufacturing done by Q3 of this year so that people who want to integrate these products with various applications can do so then we also are preparing various software elements like for example putting the device trees of these products and doing overlays and doing all of the software legwork in order to have an easy experience building your IOT or building your Edge product or whatever other products or applications that you may be interested in so look for global availability in Q3 along with global distribution in Q3 for all of these products that you see here Microsoft definitely needs to wake up to this right? Microsoft so how about they join the open source movement and stuff and do some open source windows or whatever they did their IOT thing but I think they're giving up on that IOT and it was not open source was it? what does IOT I don't recollect but I think they've embraced Linux with Zerosphere OS and I think if Microsoft properly embraced Linux that'd be cool right? That'd be cool so Microsoft hey come over here or just your logo or something maybe you could use some of their what do you call it phalanthropy funds hey Bill Gates or I'm just joking you don't need you fine you're gonna expand you're gonna take over the world with small computers and the new vision and everything is happening here so money is not really an object of this it's the reimagining of the concept of computers Raspberry Pi wonderful organization has sort of lit the flames for that we want to continue to sort of bring openness and sort of more freedom to this market and let people apply computing everywhere that's possible and these ARM SoCs are getting much more interesting with NPUs and other cool technology getting built into SoCs and we look forward to integrating those into products and allowing people to sort of do all kinds of cool stuff with video with signal processing with various applications that they have in mind and being powerful enough to run a desktop experience that's nice for even like most consumers should feel hopefully that using one of these it feels like hey that's cool enough I'm good enough with that like it's powerful enough for me I can do all my basic stuff I'm actually worried about traditional vendors so the moment ARM comes out with an octa core ARM Cortex A75 or one of the IC vendors come out with an octa core Cortex A75 Intel and AMD are in a lot of trouble so AMD abandoned their K12 initiative and they're going for the enterprise which I think x86 is going to be in the long term they have to stick with enterprise because that's where their margins are but ARM is really making a killing on the sort of low end and medium desktops I don't see sort of x86 having a future in laptops and desktops like moderate level desktops I still see them in high end desktops but I think ARM is going to make real inroads into the computer market and there was this really cool French company that does this cloud the cloud access to a giant sea urn server just so if you have this could be considered also thin clients where you get access to unlimited computing on the cloud that is feels like it's local so something like this should be powerful enough to be a very smooth thin client and even with more than thin client but just like a thin it should be perfect for thin client yeah exactly so these have so many applications I can't even start to begin where you can start applying these in places so in the cloud as thin clients, as digital signage as IOT devices as servers if you have like a one watt computer you can turn that into a mini server if you have a cluster of them you can test your kubernetes projects that you're testing and it becomes very very interesting for very very low cost like one computer that you buy you can buy let's see if you buy the 2GB 2GB version of this you can buy what is it 20 of these to build a cluster for one grand which you just couldn't do before you can't build a 20 computer cluster before for that much money if you apply these on a server level like basically build multiples of these boards onto a single board then you're talking like you know revolutionary cost structures that traditional x86 just simply doesn't have a chance at those price ranges but it does require software innovations and orchestration innovations and algorithms that are able to that are distributed and cope with issues like consensus in the software world so after the Raspberry Pi which is kind of like the leader still who's number 2 and 3 and 4 and the development board business I don't worry too much about that so I don't like I think Raspberry Pi sold something like 5 million you think total? no last year only so between their Pi Model B and 0 I think they probably sold around 5 million but that's just like Raspberry Pi although in the development world I mean development board world they're big I think that the market like Softbank says is a trillion yes it's a trillion that really matter and we're not even close to scratching the surface yet so that's cool and maybe in some point there will be flexible part of motherboards flexible PCBs, flexible chips computing will be everywhere you won't even be able to see it but it will be there are you interested in the Cortex M space the embedded smaller ones we're not doing MCUs yet we have considered doing MCUs but I think given like how small the Cortex A35 can be I think it's going to get real interesting real soon within the next two years in the armworld for substituting MCUs like Cortex M class MCUs with Cortex A class CPUs like general purpose CPUs because in the western market in the Chinese market everybody optimizes for costs in the western market the costs are in the sort of the labor of doing the software for the embedded people in America in Europe to satisfy the needs for the applications and once you give them like something that runs Debian or Ubuntu they're just going to take off with that and build all kinds of cool new products and maybe down the line it will get optimized but initially for low volume production of like say 10k or less definitely these are the way to go because they expose all the functionality of the chips and the cost the cost is very low for what you're getting because of the economies of scale nice so we're looking forward to next what you're going to do next and that's going to be interesting cool that's going to be some news on your websites and your channels and everywhere library computer yeah so we have a whole pipeline of products coming this year just wait on Twitter and see it for Kickstarter's because they're really where you're going to get everything for cheap we just use it as a marketing tool how much commission does Kickstarter take is it 8% in total they take around 9.5% that's including the credit card fee and everything yes so they take 5% plus the credit card processing which usually for low cost things like a $9 entire bill they take around 6% of overhead plus 3% you wouldn't want to crowdfund on your own website instead and save those 5, 6, 7% compared to Kickstarter it's already done at a loss in the bigger picture between between that amount is trivial compared to the marketing exposure or something so we're not too concerned about the costs and it's just been successful every time in the satisfactory manner so yeah we've been building the hardware basically when we're completed and ready for mass manufacturing that's when we do the Kickstarter although we can go to mass manufacturing without it but it just allows us to gauge what people's perceptions are there's not too much weight usually except sometimes so this one there was some logistical issues and sourcing issues and then also component shortages but that's been resolved and the whole production effort Kickstarter has been completed but we shouldn't be running into any of that once volume production that was how long time ago the Kickstarter on this one? so this was for a 6 day Kickstarter so our delivery date was actually before we received the money when was it supposed to be? so it was supposed to be at the end of January so we originally wanted to ship at the end of January get delivered in February but what happens is Chinese New Year's we sort of didn't make proper preparations for it and then some of our manufacturing some of our manufacturing partners actually didn't have the parts that they said they had and then it resulted in some delays and we have to completely resource some items and then sort of go through that production process again which happens you know I think that you just cancel Chinese New Year because it's the only holiday they have but why not just cancel that one? the workers go off for a month so all the factory closed about 15 days before and 15 days after so basically from the middle of January to the middle of March don't expect to get anything done for other Kickstarter or if you're actually developing a new product I would recommend that this time of year we've set delivery dates after March cool, alright so looking forward to what you're going to get here in the future from out of Shenzhen alright, thank you so much