 Hello. Welcome to Kwok Talk. I'm Crystal here in Think Tech. Now, always trying to push boundaries in terms of topics and when it comes to racism, well, we have a lot to push, don't we? Now, basing our concept of racism in the U.S., everything of this problematic history is based on the foundation of anti-blackness, right? You know, we created this concept of race as construct in order to maintain white power, to put it in a broad nutshell, if you will. But how do we extend this conversation on a global level? So, for example, in Asia, where there is still, I think, quite a prominent anti-black racism going on in Asian countries, how do we look at that? And so today, we're going to be extending the conversation beyond the U.S. into places like Hong Kong specifically, because I lived there for many years and I found this lovely, lovely guest who has been in Hong Kong for a long time, who can talk to us about anti-blackness in Asia. So, and without further ado, let me welcome my wonderful guest, Thelma. Thelma Patmore, who is a U.K. Jamaican, previously an architect who is now, interestingly enough, a life and business strategy coach, a certified hand and fingerprint analyst, a meditation teacher, an overall just wonderful human being trying to help people recognizing their full potential. So, Thelma, welcome to ThinkTech. Hi. Thank you. Thank you for having me. And thank you. I appreciate it, because I know it's early for you in Hong Kong, and we're here in the U.S., and we're speaking like we're next to each other, which is a wonderful thing about technology. So, let's have that bridge these gaps. And let's talk a little bit, because, you know, when I met you through this program at the Africa Center in Hong Kong, it was a space to allow for these kind of critical conversations around anti-blackness, particularly in Hong Kong and Chinese cultures. So, can we just start with maybe how you were brought up? And you went to Hong Kong from the U.K. in the early 90s, but just give us a little context of how you were brought up, how did you feel about being a black woman specifically in where you grew up, and then how that felt when you first moved to Asia back then? Well, I moved to Hong Kong because at the time in the U.K., it was a recession. And so, as an architect, I mean, it was either I made sandwiches or I went on the dole, which was called, which is, you know, benefits, which I didn't, you know, I wasn't brought up like that. My father always said, find something to do, do it well, that people will pay you, coming from the immigrant mentality. And so I realized that Hong Kong was still part of the British Empire as it was, you know, the colony. And so somebody said, why don't you try Hong Kurs? He actually said, why don't you try the filth? Filled in London, try Hong Kurs. That was what it was called. Wow. Which is, so, I mean, so I had a friend who I'd been meditating with for many years. We started meditating early 80s together, and he was Australian and said, why don't you try Hong Kong? We, there's lots of work here. And so I, I came. And there was, right? Early 90s was a boring time. In fact, I was so shocked because there, I had three job interviews in the first week. It was just, and it wasn't like interviews. It was like, Oh, when can you start? Whereas in the UK, it was more, you go for the interview, a second interview, and maybe you'd start maybe in three weeks. But in the UK, interestingly, if I spoke to somebody on the phone, I would get the job. But then when I got there, they would say, sorry, the job is gone, which, you know, a sort of normal, you know, you get used to that. I mean, it's hurtful, but you get used to it. So when you say you get used to it, is it because you were brought up like your parents would just tell you, like, this is just the way life is? Yeah. And also, there was only three black people in the school that I went to. And at the time, I mean, obviously, my siblings joined later. But when I, I mean, I felt I had to sort of do well. I did well in sports, which was my mum didn't like that, that they were pushing me to do sports because she felt, actually, they were training me for the Olympics, but she didn't feel that she wanted me to do that because she felt that if I got injured, and I didn't have an education, then what would I do? So, you know, it's interesting, that's kind of like the immigrant mentality as well. I mean, I'm coming from the Chinese side saying, okay, well, what family doesn't tell their kids to like all it's all about schooling, it's all about succeeding in all the protections. Absolutely. And I was actually told by one of my, the careers, well, she was like this deputy headmistress. And she used to say things like, you know, she'd call me in and say, you're wearing tan tights. I'd say, or I would wear black tights. And she'd say, you're not wearing the right color. And I said, well, what color do you call me? And she said, well, you're black. And I said the right tights are black. And she said, no, you have to wear tan colored tights, which is you can imagine was just, it was just wrong. Anyway, so that particular woman eventually when I went when I became an architect, I went back to her, back to the store. And she just couldn't believe it, because she was encouraging me to be a manager in Woolworths, which was around at the time. And this kind of thing, because there was also this this underlying, you know, blacks don't do well, right. But actually, in retrospect, it actually helps me because it made me push. Yeah, through the swim was wrong. Right. But that's kind of depends on your personality. Some people use that to resist that somebody trying to bring you down. But some people kind of get sucked into that type of insecurity and manifest in different ways through violence or through overcompensation, you know, there's a lot of that stuff too. So okay, so then you as a proud woman, you know, confident woman, you you come to Hong Kong. And again, you know, just to paint the picture for people in the early 90s, as I was there as well. It was a vibrant, beautiful time. Right. Golden era. Everything was just amazing. Oh my right. Yeah, yeah, lots of things about that. But so but did that impact, you know, was it welcoming because it was such a thriving economy? Why was why were you so well received there? And what was your first incidence of like, anti black racism that you felt when you got there? Well, I, it was interesting, people then people used to stare a lot then, not so much now. People used to stare a lot. I had a friend who asked me to come into his office just to see him. And, and I had my portfolio in those days, you had big portfolios, you know, a one walking around. And so I had it with me. And I went in to see him and he said, oh, my boss would like to talk to you. And I said, okay. And then his boss, his boss, because I was just arrived, you know, I was sort of going around interviewing every now and again, you know, and then so his boss sat me down and started having a chat and I was looking around the office and looking around his space. And I started to more or less interview him really, sort of, you know, these projects, how long have you been on them? Did you finish on time? Was it coming in on budget? And, and then after, I don't know about maybe 20, 25 minutes, he asked me if I wanted a job. And I was like, Oh, why? How can you just ask me that? And you haven't looked at my, my, your work, right? He said, no, no, because I've heard enough. And so basically he said, then he offered me a salary. Okay. And I wasn't quite sure whether that was good or bad. Anyway, I took it. Okay. Okay. And he said, Well, you know, it's best if we hire you because I don't think anybody else would, many companies here would hire a person of like you basically. And then he mentioned a particular firm. I won't say which one it was. Okay. But eventually I ended up working with that firm and it was through that firm that I ended up moving to Shanghai. So basically what he, I, you know, I suppose in a way it was a backhanded compliment, sort of, oh, you know, we'll take you. And it was actually to work with the Hong Kong Football Club and the, and the Jockey Club, the new Jockey Club in Happy Valley. Okay. They were extending two tracks, you know, two extra tracks for the horses. Okay. So, but basically what I realized was that he was, because he himself was a, an Englishman who had been there. Oh, okay. All right. So that made a difference. That's interesting. So it made a difference, but he, but that racism which I got from the UK was facing me right there because he is a white man or a Caucasian, I should say, was saying, Oh, you know, you probably wouldn't do very well here. But wow. Anyway, but it was fine. I took it on the chin and worked there. And apparently he went back and told the team that I was the back to join. Oh my gosh, I've just been interviewed for the first time in 27 years. Meaning, you know, so basically what he was saying is that we'd love to have you. But his way of trying to make sure I didn't go anywhere else was to say, well, you know, nobody else will hire you, which was not true. But he's making it so that you should be grateful for his opening up. And not because you were especially qualified for the job, but because he was doing you a favor. So you know, there's a lot of that type of, I don't know what it's called, but you know, whether you're, you can twist things around to make it seem like it is to your service. And yet it's actually, you know, underpinning your, your qualifications or whatever. So that's why racism is a very insidious thing. You don't see it sometimes. They can look at you and they can make it sound like it's all for you, but it can be turned around the other way. But if you're going back to Asian culture, like Chinese specifically, I feel like historically, there's been a rich commerce relationship between China and Africa, for example, you know, the trades centuries ago. And there was not that sense of racism that you see in the last century. And I'm wondering what your thoughts are on how that kind of came to be your experience. I know you maybe you can share that experience of just having some people just don't have that, you know, that wider mindset or maybe just an odd curiosity, but from a very limited perspective to assume the negative things that they hear from their family or whatever, you know, where does it come from? Well, I don't know where it comes from. I think actually, over the years, I've spoken to some people, Chinese people, I have a wide variety of friends here. And actually, I could say like the best friends are Chinese girlfriends, you know, have really, really good Chinese girlfriends. I remember one time being on going on the MTR, the, you know, the subway, the office, yeah. And I was sat in front of, it wasn't that busy, actually, but I sat in front of a man and his young son, who was about five years of age. And he was saying to him, oh, don't look at her, she'll eat you. And you understood this, because it was he speaking in Chinese? He's spoken to you saying it in English, he should eat you, he should eat you like this. And I just looked, I sort of knelt forward, you know, because we were sitting kind of opposite each other. And I said to the little boy, it's not true. Black people don't eat people. And then they got off at the next stop. But the thing is, I was like, wow. Everybody else in the carriage was saying, oh no, that's not true, we don't think that, you know, they came out. But I knew I had to nip it in the bud for that boy, because he's about five years of age. That's exactly what it is. You know, I used to use things when I was younger about how Chinese people chopped people, right? Really? So you're fit and kind of nips as well from another side? Because I understand where it's coming from, it's coming from our elders. I mean, this is where we get our most of our actually prejudices as well. I mean, I used to, you know, I had relatives that would, they would honestly berate me if I actually, when they saw me walking with one of my friends, you know, my school friends and whatever, and they're like, oh, you're not dating this person, are you? And I'd say, well, if I was, why would it matter? And then I would get the whole, so I know it's everywhere. That's true. Exactly. Every community has that kind of, that inner gossipy attitudes against each other. And you can't say anything right now. But you know, it is, it does stem from very deeply rooted places. But let me ask you something more personal, then, have you ever dated a Chinese guy and did that, not to pry to your private life? Well, Chinese guys have approached me, but they will say things like, I don't know how serious we can be, because my family would accept you. Right. Okay, well, that's being a little... This was in the early days. I mean, I haven't, this hasn't really happened. It's not on the top of your list right now to go out and take this down an Asian boy. But you know, I remember this one lady, I forget which country she's from in Africa, but she said that she has a hard time dating in Hong Kong because the African men are going to go for the African women who were there that maybe they end up with. But when it comes to Asian men, she knows that the Chinese are going to be like, well, no, I don't date unless I'm just going to have you as a girlfriend or a mistress. That's right. That's it. There you go. There you go. The exotic other. I'll tell you what's very interesting, which, well, it's not interesting. I think it's a bit cheeky. But I found while I was in Shanghai, a lot of the taxi drivers used to tell me, because I speak Mandarin. Okay. Tell me how much they, how exotic they thought I was and I, would I be their girlfriend? And I'd say, wow, the funny thing is I was always kind of a little bit, they were always a little bit annoying. So I get into a taxi and I wouldn't have my, my nice face on it would be, no, because they're always trying to take the wrong way. And by the time, and this happened many times, by the time I got to my destination, they'd say, would you be my girlfriend? Wow. But not in a good way. You're saying that it's out of like a curiosity way. Like they want to try each other, like this little exotic. I think so. Yes. And I would say, from the moment I got into this capital now, what made you think that I liked you? No, yeah. You know, because it was, I don't know, I think it was curiosity. And it happened when some friends of mine came from Hong Kong and we were in a cab and we were dropping everybody off and he kept saying, I'll drop you off last. And my friend was laughing and saying, oh my God. Yes. Well, okay, let's go there. I think, you know, like in the States, you talk about the hyper sexuality of people of color and Asians, right? You know, you have all that, that's built upon these narratives again, that are trying to control things. But I think that's the same thing we can apply to China in your cases. I mean, it wasn't just trying to be nice, like you say, trying to say, okay, will you be my friend, like my token black friend? It wasn't that in a sense. They wanted to see you thinking that whatever they thought in the back of their head. Because I don't know. They got this idea that it was, and then taxi drivers in Hong Kong are always, and I'm not joking, they would always tell me about the extramarital affairs. Oh, I have so many, I have a, I said, do you have, you're married, yes? Oh, I have a wife in Shenzhen, Orange, and I'd say, I think I like it. But why do you tell me? Yeah, they don't tell me that. Are you telling me, you know, like either a professional or to say, or to sort of, it's like, you know, like they say that the cock, you know, them, you know, showing off about his virility or whatever it was. Like he can still, yeah. Oh, wow. See, so that's what, it's not just being black in Asia, it's being a black woman in Asia that you are revealing to us right now. That it complicates your position and your power, or lack thereof, or, I don't know, it's a really interesting thing that you have to work with. And exactly, right. To nip it in the butt, though, I mean, you know, so I mean, I would tell them often say, you know, you should, and I mean, even it's sitting on a tram, you know, being touched, you know, somebody touching, yeah. Oh, you've been harassed on the tram? Oh my goodness. So this is in the early days, I looked, you know, sort of longer hair and, you know, the whatever. You're just too damn attractive and like people want to. Well, I don't know what it was. But it's, yeah, it happens a lot. And on the MTR, you know, on the busy times, I never get the MTR on a busy time. Because, you know, if you have shopping in your hands, it happens to me where somebody's arms come under and then cups my, my, my breasts. And so what I did, I waited until, and I screamed at him. I put my bags down on the thing, went back in, and I screamed at him, and everybody, people pretended they couldn't see it, but he knew, he didn't say anything, he knew. He was just, you know, copping a long field because I had my bags in my hand, you know, and I couldn't do anything. And then I just, just pushed him, pushed him and said, and just, you know, like this. And so I never travel. Yeah, it happens a lot. And I hear it, I'm a lot of local girls tell me that too, that it happens to them too. So this is where kind of like, reinforced with their harsh reality of the sexualization of women and how we could never really get away from that, you know, we can't blame a certain place. I mean, it's everywhere, right? You know, of course, Hong Kong and China are a much more patriarchal society, but you look at the sexual abuse in the States, you know, it's just, it's all over the place. Everywhere. But I just, I tried to, because I know if I was to try and, you know, report, I mean, it's, you know, it's time, but I just nip it in the bird and let them know. Yeah, you know, you've done this, but I'm letting you know it's bad. I mean, obviously they do all the time. And get away with it. And get away with it. Exactly. Get away with it. Do you think it's gotten worse in a sense that, I mean, so the normative of seeing people of different backgrounds is probably more accepting in that sense, but at the same time, I feel like because of social media and whatever altered twisted news wherever we're getting it from, you can reinforce certain types of perspectives that. Yes, absolutely. Right. So do you blame it on social media? Do you feel like things are going the wrong way? I think it's social media, definitely social media. People just have an assumption. Obviously, when I was in China, I felt that it was out of curiosity. I remember obviously people touching your hair and all this kind of stuff. Yeah. And then you'd get many people would just come straight up and ask, are you from Africa? You know, you know, Facebook? Yeah, yeah. The dumb question. And I would say, no, I'd say, Yameja, Jamaica, which is Yameja. And they go, oh, and then I'd have to say, oh, you know, both, Usain Bolt. This is where, you know, the famous. And then they go, oh, yeah. And then they do the sign, you know, but it's. I mean, it doesn't bother you because, you know, on one hand, it's kind of like an innocent curiosity to some level, but then. I felt it was more of an innocent curiosity because seriously, as a, you know, I used to walk around on site as an architect. And of course, I used to stop work and I used to say, well, come on, stop looking at me. Don't look at me. Carry on working, you know, because it's dangerous. So I used to say to the woman, just warn them when I'm coming, just, but just to carry on working. It is curiosity. Let me ask you this. Do you think it's inevitable for any homogenous society to have racism? Absolutely. Absolutely. It's, it's, it's, it's everywhere. It's endemic. And I really don't, you know, I'd like to be part of a conversation where we could find out how we could alleviate it. It's never really going to go. It's not in my, not in my lifetime anyway, until, you know, until everybody is, is, is mixed. But there's always this thing of keeping it pure. One of my, my cousins was like, oh, no, no, no, you can eat. I'm so sure you can date them, but don't, don't marry them. We have to keep it pure. I said, what are you talking about? We have mixed race aunts and uncles. What are you talking about? Exactly. Everyone's mixed. Yeah. He wouldn't know founding fathers of this stupid country is mixed, of mixed, you know, all, all the kids. It's about tolerance and acceptance. You know, I really feel it's tolerance. And why am I here? It's not because, you know, I'm not, I don't find that, I mean, to be honest, back in the UK, same thing. It was always not, it was like normal. You just lived with it. But here, where to me, it's kind of obvious. It's up to me. I feel that my reaction to it, it's how it informs my life. And then some people will go, oh, I, you know, they say, oh, you've changed my mind about black people. Or, oh, I didn't realize, you know, this kind of thing. I said, well, look, it's not about black people. It's about people. There is bad in every race, every culture. It's good and bad. So it's not, it's just about, you know, I have to try to be an example. I feel that should be an example. So you feel there's kind of a responsibility almost? Responsibility, yeah. A burden of, yeah. Yes. An integrity. And also treating others how I would like to be treated. I kind of mother my friends anyway. But it's treating people how I would like to be treated. And then if people are like that, you just back away. If the person is, because they say hurt people hurt people. So somebody may have had a really bad experience with it. So I don't really feel that it could be done. You can only do a small piece. Yes, we can talk about it. Let's, you know, talk about black lives matter, all lives matter. And it shouldn't, this thing shouldn't be going on, you know, and right, it should be happening within the communities that also to educate the young people as well. Yes. Well, I mean, that's why going back to the Africa Senate, it's great because then you get like local students who go in and they have communicating and seeing it as a normative and really embracing the culture and not just seeing it as a kind of a, you know, through some fancy cultural activity day where you get to like, you know, the plumes and old costumes, which is stupid because that's what we do culture. Right. So, but what, you know, in a couple of minutes, short time left, I just wanted to end, you know, it bothered me and I'm grateful that you shared it, but the sexualization aspect that we don't talk enough about, because it's, you know, we want to get rid of racism, but the sexual thing on top of it is really, really problematic. So what would you have to say, leave our audience thinking about to push the boundaries of seeing that these complex weavings of race and body and sex and culture are also intertwined that, you know, give us, give us something to think about before we leave? Well, I personally never dress in a way because of that, that would encourage it. And it's not because I'm not a prude or anything by any way, but it's having self-respect. So I feel that if I portray myself in a way, which is, you know, as with decent whatever, then because it's made me think, oh my gosh, maybe I need to dress in a particular way or make sure I cover up or whatever. You see what I mean? But it's, it's, I feel really that it's a lot of social media and the perception of who Black people are and what they do and what they're about. And I try to, when I see people, I speak to people to educate them and sort of say, well, no, there are young people who have been led astray by drugs, whatever it is, or feeling insecure or actually abuse. I mean, let's not even, let's not pretend that this doesn't happen. I spoke to, I speak to a lot of young people when I had this incident who told me about their own young Chinese girls and say, it happens to us all the time. I said, what do you mean? Yes, we'd always, it happens all, but we can't say anything. Yeah, it's the stigma of the shame, the shame of the, you know, the shame. Yeah. So I think that, yeah. I feel that if it happens to you, speak to somebody about it, not necessarily friends, but really speak to help because it can cloud your judgment. And don't blame yourself for anything. Exactly. And feeling guilty. Yeah. And feeling guilty. And thinking, I mean, you know, this, this happens a lot. That's a whole other thing, and that makes me feel like I need to like do another episode with you to talk about that part of sexual abuse. Yeah, the shame, the shame and. Yeah. Delma, unfortunately we're running out of time, but it's interesting that we started off and my intention was to break out and talk about anti-blackness in Asia, but then it spun into like the whole problematic area of the sexualized female body, which goes to show that it's so connected and so entangled. And so we really need to kind of embrace these problematic topics together. So I really appreciate you sharing your experience and to just open up that conversation to remember York's what happened to you and how people can apply that to their lives and to respect each other as people, as human beings. So thank you so much for sharing today. And I hope that we can continue to break these divides by talking more about this. So thank you, Delma. Thank you. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. 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