 I feel in my heart that somebody has came up here and took her and lured her away from here. I think someone come up here and grabbed her and ran down the hill. I think so, too. And threw her in a car and drove as far away as they could from this area. I know she didn't walk away from this property by herself or off this yard. Hey, it's Dr. Phil here. Please subscribe to the behavior panel. So we good? Ready? Show me. Here we go. I'm Scott Rouse. I'm a body language expert and analyst. And I train law enforcement in the military and interrogation body language. And I created the true crime workshop with Greg, Mark. I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language. Help people all over the world to stand out, win trust and gain credibility. Every time they communicate, including some of the leaders of the G7. Chase. I am Chase Hughes. Did 20 years at the U.S. military. Wrote the number one bestselling book on behavior profiling influence and persuasion. Nowadays, I train everyday people and intelligence operatives in the same. Greg. Greg Hartley. I'm a former army interrogator, interrogation instructor, resistance to interrogation instructor. Written 10 books on body language and behavior. Put together the true crime workshop at truecrimeworkshop.com with Scott Rouse. And I spend most of my time on Wall Street and corporate America. All right. Well, today we're going to talk about Summer Wells and we're talking about her. We've got a lot of requests to do her. So again, the panelists have spoken and we're going to do what they suggest. So Summer Wells, this little girl who's missing from Kingston, Tennessee. And we have an interview, a couple of interviews to take a look at of her parents. Greg found the footage. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I think it's King's Port. It's up in the corner up in Tennessee. And what we have King's Port. Yeah, her father and her mother and their clips are interspersed. Some with both of them together and some with just the father. She's been missing now. I think today is day 14. And the father released a statement early. Went in front of a camera and did a full interview for about eight or nine minutes. The mother only last night came out. And this is all that we have from them. This is an active case guys. Nobody knows where this little girl is or where she's missing. What we want you to pay attention to is we might be joking at times, but it certainly is not about this little girl. Anything that we find funny or any of that kind of thing will not be about this little girl. If you have any tips, please contact authorities. If you have any ideas, please contact authorities, not conjecture tips. This little girl is still missing. Yeah. All right. Well, let's take a look at the first video. You guys ready? Yeah. Here we go. I can't imagine how you've been feeling me the past couple of days. It's been rough in the resurrection. I've never seen so many Christians in one place in my life. That's pretty awesome to see that. I just hope God and His mercies will deliver somewhere home to us. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so interesting in terms of the, I guess, content of what he talks about. I can't imagine how you're feeling. And he defers to society, religion, and God. So interesting deferral. I'm not sure really what it says, but it isn't necessarily talking about his specific feelings, though it could be an element of, I guess, feeling supported by society, by the religion, by the God involved. Anyway, with sound off on the whole very comforting gestures around the sun. So that felt good to me. Downward inflections in the voice when you've got the sound on. That sounds assured. So comfort assurance. His weight is forward as well. So that seems like he's kind of leaning into the story. He wants to deliver information to him, to us. Tongue grooming beforehand. I'll just say now that I see that throughout. I think that's a consistent kind of preparation before he speaks, though I'm open to other views on that. For me, it seemed like a baseline preparation that he always does. Boy's head is hung. Is that is that shame? Is that grief? Is it just the sunlight? They're facing into the sun at the moment. Not sure at this point. But anyway, that's what I've got as a first off on this first piece here. Chase, what do you got for us? Yeah, agree with you, Mark. And this is a clip where we're not seeing much emotion. We're not seeing a lot of anger, sadness, stress or anything else. And just you watching this as an interesting data point for you as a panelist is that the reporter didn't ask a question. The reporter used what's called a provocative statement. And this is part of elicitation that people in the intelligence community get trained on. As far as I know, this is the first thing you learn when you learn about getting information out of people. And I think the reason that this unrehearsed statement about resurrection really came up is because no question was asked. And in the intelligence community, they have a saying that says the more sensitive the information you need, the less questions you should be asking. So the more we want to default to elicitation. And I think that's why this came out. I think it's also interesting that he defaults to saying we believe in the resurrection which suggests or denotes that he has either made the decision that she's not coming back or she's dead or that he's just already aware of it. And I think it's interesting with his son there beside him that I think they're providing each other equal amounts of comfort. I think the son is also become a pacifier for him. And you see in his high stress moments, he increases the physical contact and movement on the son kind of reassuring him, pulling him in a little bit closer. Not a whole lot of certainty here about what this means yet. So it was just the first video. We'll get to the next one. Scott. Right. Usually when somebody goes straight to religion, right out of the gate, that's a red flag for me. I believe in resurrection. I've never seen so many Christians in one place in my life. But in this case, I think it's a little bit different. I think in this situation, this guy probably hasn't done a lot of public speaking. He probably doesn't know what to say. So I think maybe out of nervousness he goes right to that. Now, his background is a little bit sketchy as far as getting in trouble for things. So he's been, he's gotten a little bit of trouble before. So that may be something to help shine him up, make him look good, make help spiff him up a little bit for people watching. Oh, he's a good guy just in case. And I agree, Chase, he's used that little boy as an adapter, you know, holding on to him. But I think they both are because it's a, it's a trying time. I'm not seeing a whole lot of grief here. Not seeing tons of it anyway. You can tell the guy's not, he's, he's, he's down. But those are more sleepy movements. He looks tired really more than anything to me in this case. His blink rate is through the roof. So that's, it could be a tick. Sometimes it's high and sometimes it's not. So it could be that he's nervous. It could be when the first, when the first interview starts, it might be one of his first ones. I don't know if they may be a little bit nervous about that. And when we look at these non-verbals as well, culture is going to play a huge part in this, the way they act, the way they stand, the way they deliver the information that they're going to give us. So keep that in mind as we go through them. And I'll point out some other things to let you know that. His voice is fairly monotone as well. We know, we believe in resurrection. Never seen so many Christians in one place in my life. And let's start paying attention to how many times he says and and so. Because we see that pop up at some key points over and over and over and over and over and some of this. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so if I start off, I'm going to say that your experience colors who you are and how you respond. I would say that organism does what the organism does. If you've been in trouble with a law, if you've got drama in your house, if you've been arrested a few months ago for domestic things, you're going to feel uncomfortable in front of a camera and under scrutiny. Doesn't mean that you did something to your child. It simply means that you got baggage associated with that. Number one, number two, he comes out of the gate immediately with religion. But he doesn't say as God is my witness. He says we believe in the resurrection. We believe in the resurrection. That automatically makes you think that he assumes the girl's dead. But there could be another reason. Guys, I'm not making an excuse. I'm just going to tell you why that could happen. If you've converted to a religion, Maslow's hierarchy among people who have the same religion is saying the same things. And he probably rarely speaks outside of church. I saw the other day. He's in his seventh day of Vendist. And he was up talking in front of church. So it's probably a standard line he does every time he stands in front of people and maybe a catchphrase, not literally a catchphrase only, but a way that makes him more comfortable. At the same time, he's gripping that little kid's shoulder and the kid is getting comfort too. But at one point he's gripping the kid's shoulder and the kid looks up and I'm like, Hey, that's a little tight. So it's just, it's an adaptor as you guys have already said. In terms of sadness, you know, I always talk about this muscle and refer to this as a grief muscle, but it really isn't a single muscle. What's happening there with people is all these muscles, and I won't ever remember the name of them except for the big ones. But as these muscles, as you feel sad or sorrow, that internal part of the brow rises, the other brow comes down. And then as that's happening, most of us when we're sad are brow rises. And this is fighting that is how you get a little arch there. It's a bunch of muscles involved that causes that look. What you need to be paying attention to when someone, I just read a study yesterday from 2012 and I will put it down below. But they said that the frontalis muscle blowing out the grief, all those grief lines is the best indicator of deception that most people can notice. So when the person is doing what I call request for approval instead of that, it shows something. So here you see a little bit of an arch but not much, but you do see that sadness you see his eyebrows lifted up and the indicators of grief or sadness are that arch, the brows lifted and the corners of the mouth down. He has facial hair, but look at the corners of his mouth. They're drawn. He has some tears in his eyes or sweat. Hard to tell it is hot. It is Tennessee this time of the year. He doesn't stance. He doesn't take high ground. He simply uses that religion piece. And he is adapting. We typically would say those are red flags and the flash, the blink flash, the blink rate goes through the roof. So I pay attention. Those things make me wonder if he knows something, but we'll go through this as we go remembering that it's, I'll show you one really good indicator. That's hard to fake. It's really hard to fake your this up and your brow and your lids down unless you're sad. Your lids down and your brow up that way usually indicates somebody's sad. This going to immediately the worst case makes us all feel like he's knows the girl's dead. But if you have been in prison a few times, if you've been in trouble and things typically go badly for you, you might assume that they're all going to go bad for you. So try to try to read what a person's been through and that gets you to the next piece. And that's what I got. Excellent. I can't imagine how you've been feeling these past couple days. It's been rough. We know, we believe in resurrection. I've never seen so many Christians in one place in my life. That's pretty awesome to see that. I just hope God and His mercies will deliver somewhere home to us. We good? Yeah. We really miss her very much. She was the angel of blessing, the love of our life. She's what made our world go around. All right, Greg, what do you got? So the first thing that jumps off the plate to me, and we have to take this into account and say, she's going to talk about some of this in great detail, but is lack of forehead involvement. She doesn't use her forehead much at all. Now, the one thing we know is that people who are not interested in social engagement don't use their forehead much because that's the way we signal each other. I think it was Desma Morris who called it billboard of emotion or billboard of something. And so it's a way for me to connect with you across the room. She doesn't do much of that. She's also doing a lot of internal conversation or what I assume is internal conversation is she's over here and just kind of rolling through what should I say. At one point when she is saying she was our little... We really miss her very much. She was the angel of blessing. She almost says something else I think before she says angel because she says later she would keep the boys in line and that kind of thing. But if you're talking about a child who has disappeared, you certainly don't want to disparage them if you love them and care. Usually people who are disparaging are the people who hated the person who was gone and just like our last week's guest who's saying how bad his wife was and how badly she beat him. Usually you don't disparage him so you look for better words about the person. She does a double shoulder rise kind of in helplessness at one point in here and then she goes back to... She does make eye contact one time. I typically think of looking at mood in addition to body language. You talk a lot about body language but if you think about energy, focus and direction for a person you can think a lot about all the rest of the stuff is painting on a palette. In her case, all of her energy is internally focused it's low and her alignment is scattered. She's all over the place with her mind. That typically I associate with confusion. Now you can paint a lot of things on top of the confusion palette but that's the way I look at it and what I see here is that. On the other hand, if she were low, external and scattered or low, external and focused I would say now she's secretive because she's paying attention to something that's coming. Don't see that. Here's what I see. Realize this is a baseline for her and her first time seeing her. So we'll go from there. Chase, what do you got? We remembered. That's awesome. I knew that. He's still there just selling that menstrual. That was awesome. I only knew because I started out with I didn't really get to see this video and Scott goes... I was trying to laugh and I wondered if you were saying something horrific. Oh man. That's a good one. I think in this video we're seeing let's just talk about the verbals in this video instead of the nonverbals. Everything that's being said here is in past tense as if the likes and dislikes and who the daughter is is no longer a current reality. She was... And I think that's interesting and we're talking about her facial movement. I think what we're seeing here I'm not a doctor but I did spend eight years studying neuroscience at some kind of cool university. However, I think what we're seeing here is late stage Bell's palsy which is some damage or a problem with the seven cranial nerve that affects one side of the face where you see this paralysis and you start to see some of that paralysis in the side of her face, I think. You can see it in the development of her cheekbones. But I will give you a PSA. These symptoms are sudden onset. Bell's palsy is a sudden onset disorder much like a stroke. So if you see some symptoms where somebody's face is paralyzed but they are able to move their forehead you should treat it like a stroke immediately. Scott, what do you got? All right. I agree with you a lot on that. We're not seeing a whole lot of facial movement in this and it is a little bit odd. It's a little bit wonky looking when you start paying attention to it. Again, here she looks worn out. She looks sleepy. She looks like she's been going through a lot which obviously she looks worried and I think the behavior we're seeing shows that. One thing that I'm not seeing that would show me deception is sort of what Greg was getting to a minute ago. They're not talking to each other. They're not looking at each other. They're checking with each other. They're checking each other's looks or what they're saying. Like in the last two fake plea videos we see a lot of that stuff. Checking each other out, seeing what they're saying. Eyes directly looking at that person. Here we're not seeing that. We're not seeing them. In other words, touch base on what I'm saying. Is that okay so far? None of that. I think that single eyebrow raise specific words or phrases like I just did then specific words or phrases. Since she doesn't do that much at all I think that's what her eyebrow is doing. I think it's doing that to act as an illustrator. Her eyes are sort of like an illustrator but an enhancer when those eyes go up real big. That's how she expresses that that's important or it's a big deal. The shoulder shrugs I think are just something where she's trying to express. She's looking for words to express how she feels but she doesn't have the words. I don't think she has the words so I think that's what we're seeing there. This is going it's odd what we're seeing fairly odd compared to what we're used to seeing. So Greg, what do you got? Mark, what do you got? Sorry. Interesting Greg that you talk about the mood there. I think that's a nice thing to look at. Emotions, heightened emotions will last kind of maximum 10 minutes. It's about all the body can really stand of a heightened emotion. Moods can go on for hours. If moods go on for days we often call them effective disorders. They're a little more than a mood that maybe sum it more up. What's interesting with this is the mood of the male and the female are very very similar. They seem to kind of fit together. We've got the male with his arm out. They seem to be quite connected not only kind of physically in their rhythm, in their mood and that speaks to me about something of a family going on here, a connected family. Now I know you might have all kinds of information around this family but however a family performs now and again they seem to be performing really together at this point. So that's an interesting data point. As said before we've often seen in other films of videos of families dealing with this kind of situation two very disparate people, different rhythms disconnected from each other. Doesn't seem the case here. I think you're right Scott, searching for these words. There's a lot of confusion there a lot of difficulty finding the words but she does find the metaphor which is she's what made our world go around. She's what made our world go around. It's that idea of the world has now stopped that's a big strong image that the child has gone the world has now stopped. She's what made our world go around. And I wouldn't I would expect that metaphor with real grief so although we might not be seeing it in the face here the metaphor speaks to me of a real massive change in life the world has literally stopped it stopped turning life as they know it is not the same so that's quite powerful I think everything stopped it's it's shock it's confusion it's devastation there that's what I got for you We really miss her very much she was the angel the angel of blessing the love of our life she's what made our world go around. It was planting flowers with her mother and her grandmother and she wanted to go into the house so my wife watched her go into the door and she went into the house and the boys were on the internet of course and she wanted to go downstairs and play with her boys so when her mother come in she says we're summer she went down in the basement she didn't answer so she went down there and she was gone so she went out the basement door which was unlocked and we haven't seen her since All right Greg what do you got? One interesting thing throughout everything we're going to see this guy do is that he has the same cadence almost exactly throughout every interview he's done because it makes me think okay that's kind of a baseline for him yeah it's slow, it's drawing and that kind of thing but that's how he speaks in this storytelling you cannot miss that he's storytelling because his cadence changes if you pay attention when he goes into storytelling mode and he said I was not home when this happened and then he starts down this third party story and you can tell he's repeating what he's been told she was planting flowers so my wife watched her go into the door and she went into the house and the boys were on the internet of course and she wanted to go downstairs and play with her toys so when her mother come in she says we're summer she went down in the basement she didn't answer so she went down there and she was gone so she went out the basement door which was unlocked and we haven't seen her since that's all he's got and after that just walks through the details and I'm having a hard time I'm looking at him because his brow is up in the center his mouth is down, his lids are low but he's also out in the sun so I'm not going to read everything into it I am going to say he's gripping his kid he's got that same thing where he's gripping him and he's adapting if this were he was home and he was telling me this story I would probably call it a red flag because the cadence changes but knowing that he's heard this second third hand so no big deal however it is with that and blink rates and all of that we have to look for positives as well he's illustrating with his right hand now he can't with his left hand but he is illustrating the story with his right hand and you see what Chase I think you would call body narration when he's moving around a little bit as well trying to get the message across and then he does a sour taste as you would say Mark it's hard to tell with all the facial hair but he does a sour taste and shakes his head when he's saying she was gone and so you would expect that's a negative negative and you know a lot of people would say shaking his head no when he's telling you something that doesn't mean that means that it's a lie we all know that's not the truth we know that we're looking for it to match the message he's delivering and Chase I think you had a great one recently where the guy went like this for yes and like this for no that's a big deal but if the guy is saying it was a bad thing and he does that then you expect it to be some different what do you get yeah so I would say again tongue grooming before speaking so for me I think that you know these little bits of tongue action that we see always before he speaks is just he always prepares like that I don't think we're seeing any kind of preparation around around potential deceit or anything that you might read on the internet about lip licking or tongue or whatever I think again it's kind of baseline for him he'd probably do the same at church when he gets up to speak the boys were on the internet of course the boys were on the internet of course kind of interested by that is that about you know is that an alibi is that about well aren't they you know a sense of annoyance always being on the internet that of course is of interest why are you trying to point that out so I'm keeping my eyes and ears open around that piece there on the whole like he's forward and agreeable when I turn the sound off you know although we get some of these head shakes which are about very specific things he's very forward he's very agreeable he's not displaying many of the things that we've seen in the past when we know or suspect that somebody is trying to hold back information and especially in this case I agree Greg he is taking us through the story that he's heard from his from his wife and from what I've heard of her story it really doesn't deviate from that at all which makes me feel like he doesn't feel like he needs to add anything as good as it is it's good enough that story that does the job whatever job that's meant to do that does the job he doesn't need to add anything he doesn't need to take anything away from it so it's you know it's pretty good at the moment Chase what have you got for us yeah I agree with you guys absolutely here and I will say that the lip licking thing I will always treat as a potential marker for deception until I see otherwise and obviously it's just it's going into a pile we're not going to see it and say none of us will ever tell you that one of these behaviors it means that somebody is being deceptive but once they get into a pile they start to become a little more solid ground so I would always suggest for any reporter that's interviewing these people start your with some truthful questions where do you work how long have you worked there tell us about what you like about doing what you do things that people are willing to talk about and get some baseline for people like us to help out so let's go with some red flags since you guys are let's go with some things that might suggest otherwise the story is focused on innocence with the only a tiny mention of the appearance and there's no attempt whatsoever to get us how he feels there's no emotion conveyed here at all and also another failure to mention the name of the victim and finally one thing that almost universally people who are missing a child and go on TV do they have zero problem completely overtaking the interview and stomping all over the reporter's question to get out exactly what they want to get out they do not answer questions as if they're trying to pass a test and I think this is also one of those indicators maybe this should be one of our things on our checklist but people who we've seen in the past who have these videos and they're genuine they have no problem derailing the interview to talk about getting the child back and there's no mention of getting summer back in this video scott this gives me the feeling that he's told this a lot he's heard this a lot and it gives me the feeling he wasn't there at the beginning which I believe we are under the impression he wasn't there from the information we got the reason I think that is because his recall on this like Greg was talking about is great she was planting flowers with her mother and her grandmother and she wanted to go into the house so my wife watched her go into the door and she went into the house and the boys were on the internet of course and she wanted to go downstairs and play with her toys so when her mother come in she says we're summer she went down to the basement she didn't answer so she went down there and she was gone which was unlocked and we've never seen her since he's speeding right along and he's repeating the same story he's heard over and over for the past few days he's heard his wife tell it a thousand times because they've been sitting there tell me again what happened that's how you find those inconsistencies in a story that you can box him in with you ask him the same thing not only do you ask him somebody else will ask him he's heard it a lot so he's just cruising right there he's going in a circular motion almost like well here's what happened that's why I can speed through it like that and he sort of keeps this mode happening he's in listening mode and we know that because his head's still a little bit and that ear comes forward just a little bit and that gives you the impression someone is listening to you and as he's going through this he goes and so and this happened and this happened so they went in that's another thing they're making these things together there's information and information, a little break and she wanted to go into the house so my wife watched her go into the door and she went into the house and the boys were on the internet of course and she wanted to go downstairs and play with her toys so he's going through and remember it in those chunks like that not using any barriers he doesn't look stressed and the only illustrator he's using is his arm when he's doing the little movement with his arm I don't see him trying to block anything I don't see him trying to hold back anything I think he's giving up all he knows about this at this point again let's pay attention all the time he says and and so as we run through this alright we good? yeah can you tell us a little bit what someone was doing that afternoon or that evening she was planting flowers with her mother and she wanted to go into the house so my wife watched her go into the door and she went into the house and the boys were on the internet of course and she wanted to go downstairs and play with her toys so when her mother come in she says where summer she went down to the basement she didn't answer so she went down there and she was gone so she went out the basement door which was unlocked and we haven't seen her since so and my mother and her were planting flowers and we went in after we got done washing our hands and she got a piece of candy from grandma and she wanted to go back over and see her brothers and I said okay and I walked all the way over to the porch and I watched her walk into the kitchen where the boys were watching TV and I told the boys I said watch summer I'll be back and within two minutes I came back and I asked the boys where their sister was and they said she went downstairs to play with her toys in the playroom I said okay and I yelled downstairs for a couple times and they didn't get no answer which was unusual because usually she always answers me and so I went down there to check and she was nowhere in sight she was just gone alright Chase what do you got this is mostly truthful we have minimal deception indicators here these rolling along with the story not a whole lot of eye accessing and not a whole lot of random eye accessing limited mention of the child's name until she's saying herself saying the child's name and almost no emotion here so I'm sure that they went through a lot of emotion I'm not sure if they've already processed the thought that maybe they believe that it's a finalized thing and everything is over with now and there's no hope and she's gone through all that already but at this point I would expect to see a lot more emotion from the person but I do think this is a truthful statement Mark yeah there's a lot of detail in there which for me is significant that there's importance within the detail of the life of the child and the life of the family and it's not externalized they're not distracting us going out somewhere else it's very much the internal story going on and I can see it as well it's described well enough that I can see it happening I think that's significant it's a good enough story that I can see it I've heard other people in my time tell stories where you're just going I can't visualize that happening I don't make sense it does make sense at the moment the eyes and the body are consistently telling us the geography of it and the geography seems to fit with where she is right now so again there's consistency there which feels good to me the father tells the same story she's telling it with more detail but the basic story and the basic geography is not being elaborated on or changed in any kind of way it's consistent and then at the end there for sure we see surprise on gone and I think we could be seeing some fear as well now fear and surprise have some very similar elements to them fear is actually strangely more subtle than surprise and the reason for that is if you're going to show fear to your friend who might be hunting with you you wouldn't want to show that because there's a predator in front of you you'd want to show it subtly enough that they get it and the predator doesn't because if the predator sees or smells the fear they'll come into attack so fear is actually quite a subtle gesture I think we see quite a big gesture of fear sorry a big gesture of surprise something subtler around the fear and I think we see some welling up in the eyes as well of sorrow so again feels pretty good to me what I'm seeing there in terms of just as Chase was saying what might be true and what might be deceitful it feels pretty true to me Greg what do you have so when I look for somebody who is going from comfort to discomfort or whatever state you want to look for when a person is lying and afraid of being caught one of the first things I notice is respiration we can tell hers doesn't increase which is interesting that's a great indicator and Chase I think you're dead on mostly truthful and does a person feel guilt when their kid goes missing if they're not involved absolutely I would say Mark her storytelling exactly there were 10 opportunities in that story to chaff 10 she went downstairs and the left handrail on the stairs is broken and I'm always worried none of that just facts just getting out the facts telling you what she knew there's also the and and Scott you brought it out earlier with Don when a person is telling you a story and they sound the same it's not because they rehearsed those are internal to family internal to social groups speech patterns and including in culture we can even have mispronounced words that become acceptable within a culture things like jewelry I love that clothes letters and we just pretend like it's normal that's the way we talk we accept it she does illustrate in this case but with her body because she has such low head low forehead involvement you know if I had that I probably wouldn't have all these wrinkles in my head but she also voice changes when she's saying what the boys said she illustrates that she brings it to life with her voice and she uses her hand when she's pointing to where she was this looks like a story where she's telling the whole story and using everything she possibly has she could be a brilliant liar and telling us something we don't know doesn't look like that here we don't see a lot of deception unless Scott blows the side of the water here in just a minute then I do see concern in her brow when she says that was unusual and you see that I narrow on that side great indicator that this story feels real when you're watching her now she has unusual mannerisms and so there's a lot of stuff that as you said Chase I'd love to see some emotion here and I don't I see some concern is about the most emotion I see but as you said Mark she could be just worn out don't know or people deal with things in different ways Scott what do you got I agree you guys cover just about everything she's not recalling a story she's telling a story and these things she's going through this is the difference in someone who is telling you a story they've made up that they're linking with these really odd things instead of just this flow this loping of telling a story just cruises right on through there's no stopping there's no there's no looking around there's no stress there she's just telling you what happened and I think we're seeing that here she's telling you exactly what happened to her from her point of view what happened here we're not seeing the animated or fake emotion not seeing a whole lot of emotion but then again she's told this same story a thousand times up to this point so there'll be no big surprise where she was surprised before the difference is like Mark was saying the difference in a in fear and surprise is fear looks like a really calm surprise in other words the eyebrows aren't way up but they're up the mouth is open just a little bit whereas in surprise it's wide open when you get surprised you're sucking in all that oxygen for your muscles and to get ready to run or fight when you decide what you're going to do so there's a big difference in in fear and surprise I think the wide eyes are again illustrating those emotions these happen and they're sort of enhancing the feeling she's having in that situation I don't I don't think she those are just you know overdone or anything I don't think she's overdoing them I think she's she is overdoing it but she's overdoing it to show the way she feels those are her illustrators at this point I believe I think we'll see that running through these videos that's about all compared to what you guys got you covered everything and my mother and her were planting flowers and we went in after we got done washing our hands and she got a piece of candy from grandma and she wanted to go back over and see her brothers and I said okay and I walked her all the way over to the porch and I watched her in the kitchen where the boys were watching TV and I told the boys I said watch summer I'll be back and within two minutes I came back and I asked the boys where their sister was and they said she went downstairs to play with her toys in the playroom I said okay and I yelled downstairs for a couple times and they didn't get no answer which was unusual because usually she always answers me and so I went down there to check and she was nowhere in sight she was just gone so we good? not knowing what happened to you do you have a gut feeling about it do you have any kind of instinct feeling about it I wish I did that person were out there but we have no idea the FBI and the police covered every single base everything that anybody can think of they covered okay I'll go first on this one this is the first one where I said wait a minute something's not right here bunch of red flags up in this one it's fairly short there's a lot going on I won't suck up everything don't worry you guys the first thing right out of the gate on this one do you have a gut feeling about what you think about what might happen no sure don't somebody bad must have taken her you know I said I wish I did somebody bad grabbed her some bad person grabbed her but we have no idea his cadence is slow doesn't show a whole lot of stress in his voice but man he's moving around a lot he's squishing back and forth moving around that arm gets that thing going this is the first time he's really been lit up so I see internal conversation and distraction about what don't know in the very beginning he's got something going on where he's almost not engaged is it the last question not really sure but he's got some internal thing going on I do see that same you know lilted eyebrows up in the front and when he's talking I don't see this request for approval like hey believe me don't you so do I see red flags absolutely when I see his blink rates go up and his respiration increase and that kind of thing I see red flags and it makes me want to poke on him first time I saw this video my first thing was he knows something now again there's lots of reasons people all the time there's lots of reasons why you can feel away and increase this only gives us the next question and to your point Chase if I were the reporter standing there I might go and poke and say what makes you think it's somebody or go down that path we can't do that we're not controlling it we're seeing what we see here and I would then want to ask another question is what I'm seeing Chase what do you got I would do much of the same and I would probably throw in a lot of elicitation there just to just to make sure that fans out that answer just turns into a fan and elicitation is great for that I think it's you covered the stress and you covered him becoming more illustrated and I think it's interesting that he's becoming more illustrated telling people or wanting people to think that everything's already been done and I would say this is a red flag because on a continuum of like I want everyone to help me or I want people to think that this case is unsolvable he's all the way on the on the other side where he's communicating that everything's already been done and there's no request there's no saying we're running down leads where he's saying we've done everything already it's all been done I think that's it's unusual communication from somebody missing their child but I don't think it's necessarily deceptive Mark? Yeah so again 3 for 3 we get the tongue action before he starts to speak I see what you're saying there Chase let's not discount it ever but 3 for 3 he always seems to start with that but let's not discount it you're right this is not and come back at me on this Chase this is not a case of a missing perpetrator anymore because a perpetrator has been you know it's some bad person and has grabbed her so there is a good strong theory about the type of person and some of the action involved so this is better off than what we often get which is just perpetrator you know no idea not even mentioned and there's no idea however everybody's right here that it is running it's suggested that they're running out of leads running out of places to go and the story now has a sense of hopelessness to it as the story builds it runs out of places to go and I believe we see his emotion build around that and we do start to hear some difference in the voice some action in the eyes there around distress sadness now I think there are all kinds of reasons why there might be some incongruence in the stories or just juxtapositions around that but certainly this is possibly one of the most interesting elements of the story that we've seen so far because there is some difference between him going I have no I have no idea here's what we're looking for here's who I actually think it is I'll leave it at that just for one second guys again we're going to say this 100 times body language is not magical we're not mind readers lots of reasons you might ramp up your heart rate in that when you're thinking about a child and somebody says who do you think took her or what do you think happened and you say we think somebody took her maybe it is what they think and that might cause your respiration to go up too so what we want you to do is to notice that every time we're looking for what should happen next and how this should tie together what does a communication look like and how does this story come out I think that's the big piece here I'm not knowing what happened to you do you have a gut feeling about it do you have any kind of instinct feeling about it I wish I did bad person gravity but we have no idea that the FBI and the police have covered every single base everything that anybody can think of that cover okay I'm just scared that somebody is hurting her and there's nothing I can do about it and it smothers me alright Chase what do you got I think this is truthful and I'll just say one thing about this we see her eyes moving around and we see her talking and she has comfort looking downward she's not escaping to look downward she's just looking away to speak and she's comfortable about it this I think is truthful because there is no attempt to manage perception no attempt to manage perception Greg? I'm with you I see truthful here there's a narrowing of her eyes at nothing I can do about it which is a sad and negative thing she uses she looks up left looks around a little bit she rolls her eyes up in that gesture if you will about loss of control and what does she say how horrible this is you see that going I don't see a barrier anywhere there if you're thinking of her lying she probably want to cover up put something between her and you we don't see any of that and her speech pattern for smothered is just you know Scott and I talked a little bit about it it's not choice of words but culture matters so that's what I see Scott what do you got? I agree when she says it smothers me that's totally a cultural thing I've heard that actually before I think you guys have covered pretty much everything even though the eye roll is odd that's another way of her expressing her emotions with it she's sad but she's not good at expressing her sadness whether she's on something that's helping calm her nerves or not I would possibly ask unless she's just really tired she just may be worn out from worrying so much her cadence is pretty slow her voice tone is low everything rides right along the way it should and someone who is supposedly feeling sadness and possibly grieving I don't see the grief on her face I don't see any grieving in any of them but that doesn't mean that's not what's happening so yeah I think it's all congruent with the emotions that she should be feeling this time you got yeah so I think we are we're seeing or she is delivering to us in the way that she delivers emotion she's delivering emotion to us and I think it's triggered by this idea of an abduction and the powerlessness of this I will say in the video that we saw before we do see the child react to the idea of abduction as well and she's very comforted around that so there's some import within the family there seems to be some important trigger around the meaningfulness of this being a possibility she uses a metaphor there it could be colloquial I think you're right Scott but regardless of whether it's colloquial or not it smothers me this idea of it smothers me it literally cuts off that's what you do to a fire so the fire doesn't burn anymore fire is often considered with the idea of being alive so this idea of if she's abducted the powerlessness that the mother feels it literally is taking the life out of her the mother that powerless feeling so though it's colloquial it's quite a strong metaphor being used there yes the eyes defocus at the at the end of that I think there's a strong possibility that there's some kind of sedative involved they've been going a long time with this we see I don't know whether we see it in any of these films but but the child in some of the films yawns I mean it's because that you know my guess is is they're up and they're up and they're up and they're worrying and they're trying to you know work this stuff out here's where I really think we feel the emotion it smothers me what I want you to do is listen to that intonation and then a few films on you're going to hear the mother talk about the kids crying and the music that she uses the intonation of her voice the primal cadence of it on crying is exactly the same as smothers me I think that's one of the ways that she shows her emotion listen what you got to remember about individuals personalities and groups and societies as well just because you don't see them do an emotion doesn't mean they don't do it you know what it often means is they're just not going to do it in front of you or this isn't the place where that person or that group does the emotion so many times I've had people come to me and go yeah but those people they never do that they never do this they don't smile they don't cry not in front of you they don't and that's the important thing is that you don't get to see that because you're not part of the family you're not part of the group well here I think we're giving an indicator of where sometimes emotions are displayed and they're in the intonation of the words I believe so interesting piece there that's what I got for you I'm just scared that somebody is hurting her and there's nothing I can do about it and it smothers me are they asking anything of you other than just people that you might suspect or you know situations you might suspect yeah I mean unfortunately I'm at work all the time you know Candace was on one side of the house when she got gone that you know not even 50 60 feet away we know she wouldn't leave the balcony there's no way she would do that all right Greg what do you got so he starts off with what we typically call a resume statement he's going to say look I'm always working I'm always away but his hands if you notice when he does talk about always being away he drops his hand and slaps his leg it's kind of a helpless movement he's saying we did our best she said look she was only taking his head he's looking like I have nothing left to give you and his elbow is away from his body those are all good signs resume statement we might think of as a red flag to say he's doing this and for a little levity if you'll notice Kevin Williams shows up at 10 seconds and leaves at 13 Mark what do you got yeah nice well done yeah you know I'm the same there's kind of almost an alibi you know I got nothing more to give you because I'm at work all the time I don't think it is him trying to lay down an alibi I think it really is him going I wish I had more for you I think what we're seeing here is disbelief confusion at the situation I think you're right Greg that's what that hand slap on the thigh is about it's that finality of that's all the information that I have you know unfortunately I wasn't there I wish I had more information you know Candice was 50 60 feet away that's all the information that she has his direction illustrators are congruent around that again the geography works around that again four for four lips licking before he begins speaking again yeah I'm seeing a lot of congruence a lot of fact in his mind around what he's saying Chase what do you got absolutely agree and definitely agree with the lip licking so we're starting to see this is a normal thing so it's it's losing power as we start moving moving forward and I think when he says unfortunately I'm at work all the time what makes this really truthful and different than when other people have is that he doesn't focus his statement on the day it happened I mean unfortunately I'm at work all the time he doesn't say that day I went to work at 3 15 I didn't come home till 6 50 p.m. that evening so I'm at work all the time makes it more likely to be a truthful statement that's something we're more likely to see when we're looking at truthful videos I mean unfortunately I'm at work all the time and I think it was extremely unusual when he said when she got gone Candice was on one side of the house when she got gone I think that may be a cultural thing maybe something out there but I also think that he didn't like his job very much we see what's called from just a behavior perspective it's not relevant to the case but we see his elbow move out when he says I'm at work all the time we see that little that's indicative of disagreement a lot of times that's one of the first things I teach HR managers to look for in job interviews when they're interviewing people for a job and when he says there is no way she would leave the property I think the kid disagrees with that we know she wouldn't leave the property there's no way she would do that I think his son disagrees and I think we can see him break eye contact and his head goes straight down to the ground the moment he says it we know she wouldn't leave the property there's no way she would do that Scott what do you got alright I agree with a lot of that a couple of things but the got gone is very common in southern phrase it's not an Arkansasian phrase however you say it chase but in Tennessee it's very common South Georgia too yeah so it's very common phrase this up to this point the video we saw before this a lot of movement going on but even more here and I think you're correct about that as well I think he's just about fed up with this that's what that hand slap means he doesn't know where to go with it from there I don't think he knows where to go with it his cadence more than doubles again here he's a speed ride along I already talked about where he was that day so many times he's just getting right through it but I think he's I think we're seeing frustration here that's where the one of the main things we're seeing and I think it's the son getting in that little kid's face plus the fact he's not around a bunch of adults all the time and I think those news people are looking at him and when he catches his eyes I think that's why he's breaking eye contact I could be wrong about that but I think I watch that from the beginning every time he looks up and you can tell because he just doesn't look down this whole body kind of scooches down I could be wrong about that because you know we're on the other side of the camera are they asking anything of you other than just people that you might suspect or situations you might suspect yeah I mean unfortunately I'm at work all the time you know Candace was on one side of the house when she got gone you know not even 50 60 feet away we know she wouldn't leave the property there's no way she would do that alright are we good? yeah good one guys personally I think someone come up here and grab her and ran down the hill I think so too and threw her in a car and drove as far away as they could from this area I know she didn't walk away from this property by herself or off this yard by her swing I feel in my heart that somebody has came up here and took her and lured her away from here alright Greg what do you got? so only a couple of things I'm a big fan of listening to words that look out of place or looking for stress onwards and she talks about by her swing and that is an orphaned little sentence there she talks about I don't think she walked away from here by her swing and then she stops for a second walk away from this property by herself or off this yard by her swing I'm wondering what's going on ahead is that something she maybe shouldn't have said is that something maybe that they've discussed maybe she went down that path and that's how she disappeared and then as he's talking he does raise his brow for the first time he doesn't raise it a whole lot as he's talking she's trying to put to figure out which words to use when she says lured lured is a very specific word people that don't know you can't lure you typically or they don't have some kind of a prize to lure you and that's how people go after children a lot of times is someone they know or it's something that they know that child would like you know people use animals and that kind of thing to draw children in so she cuts her eyes when she says lured and she looks off I'm assuming there's someone standing there there's some other reason because uncharacteristic of her to cut her eyes that hard so far as what we've seen so something's going on I would ask I would wonder if these are not words she's heard from the investigators they went down by the swing lured those kinds of words start to mean something when they're not usual patterns or they're orphaned that's what I got Mark what do you got? Yeah all I will say about this is again to you know chase often has a has a brilliant point about you know the missing the case of the missing perpetrator it seems here that again the perpetrator is quite clear in their minds or the possibility they're not they're not obfuscating from that though it's relatively nebulous it's pretty clear you know they're certainly closing down the possibilities of the type of person and how this crime may have been done and the emotion is rising as we talk about this potential abductor and so again that for me feels pretty positive for them in terms of them being honest about this situation chase what do you got on this one you caught yourself too early I'll give it to you again chase what do you got on this one I had a lot of the same stuff that you guys did absolutely agree to add one thing I'm not just going to repeat everything you guys have said so to add one thing here I think it's unusual that they would want you to believe that she's has been driven away as far as possible maximizing the scope of the investigation like it is infinitely it's going to be infinitely difficult to find her and I think with the no mention of her name no mention of recovery and pleading for recovery and a lack of emotion I think it's very possible guilty or innocent that they've given up on the idea of hope at this point Scott alright I agree with everything you guys are saying and I think I think the dad has heard the TBI say this I think that's why he's repeating it was such from the from the time the first interview we saw him talking the time has passed I don't know how much but obviously it's a different time I believe he heard that and believes it and is going with that and that's why his wife jumps in and says yeah I believe that's what happened too personally I think someone come up here and grab her and ran down the hill and threw her in a car so I think that's why she feels so confident what she's saying or I feel confident in feeling that she's not being deceptive here up to this point so that's what I got I think the swing is a boundary marker for the child when she goes out to play it's one of those things where they say stay by the swing don't go past the swing or don't go beyond the swing that makes sense that makes sense yeah okay are you good personally I think someone come up here and grab her and ran down the hill I think so too and drove as far away as they could from this area I know she didn't walk away from this property by herself or off this yard by her swing I feel in my heart that somebody has came up here and took her and lured her away from here you good mm-hmm I've never seen this truck and I've never heard of it until just recently but I wish they would come forward and explain themselves mm-hmm and if you're not a suspect they at least come forward and say what you've seen as we begin this the subject of the truck she's talking about that's the only thing that's really been brought up I think someone said they saw a truck in the area that pickup truck they haven't seen before so that's why they're talking about looking for the person in the truck alright Mark what do you got the speech pattern there is congruent with before when we think she's being factual so I think again she's being factual she doesn't know what this truck is she hasn't seen it before I think we we see some aggression on say what you've seen I think she's very strong and aggressive about this information coming out the male and female here are connected and congruent with each other so again strong family aggression from the female on give us the information that you have Greg what do you got on this one yeah not a whole lot to add except this is one of the few times we're going to see any illustrators from her and there are her eyes her eyes are moving around and she actually shows some confusion why wouldn't you come in and see that confusion she's saying why wouldn't you come and tell if you're not a suspect come and tell us what you've seen I see the same thing Scott what do you got alright yeah I agree with you guys not a whole lot here her baseline for what's going on pretty much is the same everything looks good she's using again the facial expressions that we are seeing are more enhancers and illustrators than anything else you guys cover the other stuff agreed I've never seen this truck and I've never heard of it until just recently but I wish they would come forward and explain themselves I mean if you're not a suspect they at least come forward and say what you've seen alright please find it in your heart have mercy and find a way of letting her go and where we can get her back please bring her back home just let her come home please we miss her so much her brothers are so devastated that they wake up every morning crying for their sister and as a mother it really hurts to see your other children crying alright I'll go first on this one this is the one that really bothers me I mean it really bothers me it's the only time we see any emotion the mother when she's talking about whether the other kids are crying and she furrows her brow there and we actually see grief in there her voice goes into a grief tone at that point this is the emotion we've been looking for and this is the first time we see it still don't see it in the dad still not there that's the odd thing about this whole thing is we're not seeing what we're seeing here all the way up to this point up to where they're asking for the kid to be let go or you know bring the kid the child back that's for me that's red flag town so it's it's just odd it's really odd and for them not to be pleading listen bring the you know right down the barrel the kid just like bang bring please let my kid go bring back none of that no no big expressions of emotion here at all except for that one thing on her face for the first time all right Mark where do you got yeah so I think we do get this idea of group grief like everybody's in grief I agree it is kind of odd that the emotion comes out around the problem with the boys crying I would say that we are hearing the same intonation as we get on smothers me and so this idea of powerlessness and so it's the I think it's the mother's idea of she can do nothing to stop them crying she's powerless to soothe them and stop their crying also we have to accept that some groups some societies treat the females the female children very different from the males that female children can be unconsciously treated as less valuable than males and that might be playing out here that it's that the boys need soothing and so we're not kind of quite hearing the value of the female child here what I will say is very clear here for me where the power lies find a way of letting her go and let her come home it's very clear that the power belongs to somebody else to make this happen there's a clear idea of there's a perpetrator out there and they have the power to make this happen and there's already a little bit of sense of hostage and negotiation going on there of going look you're the only person who has the power to do this again whether this is conscious or unconscious I'm not quite sure Greg what do you have on it yeah I think if we go all the way back to the beginning of this when you started off by saying look we believe in the resurrection I think there is a hell of a lot of hopelessness in these people now I also say whatever gets you to where you got is going to make you behave a different way so if you've been in trouble with the police before you're under high scrutiny and those kinds of things you're going to be less forthcoming it's just in your nature and that'll come in our wrap up because it's an important fact for me I'm sure I'm with you Scott this is a red flag this is up until here I'm like here I start to be really concerned because I mean very specific words my other children my other children not her my other children and she really does show grief sorrow whatever you want to call it in her face and her face is asymmetric because of the nature chase I think you're probably right there's some nerve damage or something but she's almost dejected and lifeless at this point and then the only thing that comes out of it is that sadness about her other children about these boys so now we're left with a handful of things to think about we've seen a lot of red flags that we would traditionally say if it were person X or Y that means this or we would be interested we can't control the conversation we can't go the next step but he is appealing he does come out and appeal and say to the only power he has he started off with a high power and this is a high power I need you to release or I need you to find a way to release her so he's asking for release he's asking for what he knows how to do and probably in a way that the organism understands that's the way I'd look at it um chase what do you got I definitely agree with you guys I think no emotion for the daughter lots of emotion for the boys crying the other children and that stood out to me and that made my stomach drop watching it this morning I have a big TV right there and I just kind of sit there and watch it on there in the morning when we record this and I think there's a definite possibility there's a class of drug called benzodiazepines which are used for acute treatment of anxiety which acute means that I have a panic attack I need something that's going to work really fast and the tradeoff is when I have a drug that works fast it has a really quick half life one of the side effects of this it's made to treat emotional conditions like fear or anxiety but the side effect of this is that it treats all emotions so it turns the volume down on every emotion that we can have and even if that's true we still saw a baseline of almost no emotion there for the daughter and then a spike an unusual baseline deviation spike for the boys and again I have it in my notes here I'm pretty sure there was no name mentioned here in this video of the child please find it in your heart have mercy and find a way of letting her go and where we can get her back home we miss her so much her brothers are so devastated that they wake up every morning crying for their sister and as a mother it really hurts to see your other children crying let's throw it around the room and really shortly 30 seconds or less tell what we think how we think it compares to deception versus being truthful and sort of what you think about what's happening Mark you want to go first yeah I think they're being honest I think the loss of emotion element I think you're right there Chase there's some sedatives maybe involved I think there are also maybe in that family or that culture that specific culture a different valuation on males and females or that males must be valued more because they might be aggressive or violent and especially and especially their emotions need calming down so I hear what everybody's saying there but I think that might be a play around around this piece or certainly that's where I'm siding on this one Chase what do you got I agree with you I think this is mostly truthful here and I think any deception that we see is self management not projecting innocence it's not out of guilt from a crime but I think in this culture especially in this area of the United States emotion is not part of the game and in a lot of these cultures especially work in construction or working in these jobs like this the more emotion you show the less stable you're seen as and it outcasts you from a group of males and females tend to adopt those behaviors as well especially in cultures like this Scott yeah what I'm seeing here is I think you're right Chase I think they're the only thing we're seeing deception on is trying to hold back the information that they've been given about whatever that situation may be I know we all discussed this a little bit earlier so that's what I'm seeing there other than that I think we're we're seeing them be honest and we got those red flags there at the end that still bothers me but after this I think overall we're seeing truth here them being truthful and being honest I think we're seeing their normal behavior especially in a situation like this I think they're acting normally Greg what do you got yeah so I'm going to take you down the path of an interrogator I've interrogated a lot of people when people give you too much information about a story let me tell you what they don't give you too much of names of other people who could corroborate their story they don't include the grandmother and the three boys and go through the whole process before the kid disappears she was over at the swing I went away to do something I came back and she's gone is how people typically lie omission leave it out they don't parade the child in front of three kids the TBI is going to talk to and the grandmother that the TBI is going to talk to have the whole story about candy and all that it's not the kind of too much information you typically get you get too much information about she stubbed her toe and and and and they take you away and they chaff and redirect I can't imagine that someone who has had a run in with the law who's trying to hide something would say hey let's include the kids let's include this let's include that it just doesn't make sense so while I see a lot of red flags in normal behavior remember I've been in trouble with the police and I'm under high scrutiny it doesn't matter if it was a long time ago that's still there and I'm missing a kid and I just had some domestic issues recently all that's going to raise your fight or flight I watched his cadence throughout this whole thing it was pretty damn consistent throughout the whole show now I'll also say her red flag was probably the most disturbing but as you said chase it can turn off all kinds of emotions and drugs can and so let's leave it at that I'm going to say we're mostly seeing truth and I will say this if they're lying to us wow I'll leave it at that yeah alright well if you like what we're doing please subscribe I got to hit that little red thing down there where Mark is, point down there there you go near his cup and then hit the little bell that shows up that'll let you know when we have a new one out they always come out on Thursdays and just subscribe alright this is good fellas thanks guys thanks so much and I'll see you next time yeah