 Good evening everyone. Welcome to the November. No What month October, right? October 2020 Meeting of the racial disparities in the criminal and juvenile justice system advisory panel I We usually start with the introductions which I'm slowly getting better at doing on zoom Um, although it's so much easier to go around the table in any event. Um, I will just start my name is a ton that's read and long go and I am chair of the panel and next what I'm just gonna go around my Virtual whatever this is Julio Yes Go ahead and introduce your wonderful self I'm Julio Thompson. I'm an assistant attorney general and director of the attorney general's Civil rights unit. It's good to see you all this evening. Hey, Rebecca. I haven't seen you in ages We have some catching up to do pepper Hey James Pepper the representative from the Department of State's attorneys and sheriffs Ray Heather Heather Simons Hi, I was just thinking which Heather That's okay Heather Simons director of professional standards Department of Corrections Loretta Loretta Saki Hi, Loretta Saki. I am with the CSG Justice Center. Thanks for having me here Elizabeth Morris Hi, I'm Elizabeth Morris. I am the juvenile justice coordinator For DCF and I and that here is our as the representative, but I'm here with our new representative Tyler Allen Who will introduce himself a little later on? Christopher Loris, please Yeah, Christopher Loris I am a research associate with crime research group sitting in for both Karen and Robin this evening Great. Thank you Madeline Dardo Hi folks, my name is Madeline Dardo. I'm a policy analyst for the CSG Justice Center Senator Ballant I'm Senator Ballant. I am here to listen in. I am the majority leader in the Senate very interested in these issues. Thank you Jessica Brown Hi, I'm Jessica Brown. I use she her pronouns and I am a public defender in Chittenden County public defender office and I am one of the Community member appointees by the Attorney General's office Sheila Linton Sheila Linton she her pronouns and I am community at large and the Root Social Justice Center Thank you. Judge Davenport I am judge, I am Amy Davenport I am a retired a superior court judge and I am a member of the Children and Family Counsel for Prevention programs Great. Thank you. Monica Weber We can't hear you, but I can see your lips moving Come on now. How about if I plug my microphone in? It's amazing. It's just amazing what happens when you do that. Anyway, I'll start again. Monica Weber Administrative Services Director and I'm representing the Department of Corrections Great and Tyler Allen who is our a new representative from DCF First time this evening. Would you please sir? I would love to thank you so much Eton. My name is Tyler Allen I am the new adolescent services unit director over at the Department for Children and Families So I work closely with Elizabeth Warren and I am DCF's representative in this group. Thank you all so much for having me Great Jen Firpo, please Work so much better when you unmute yourself the first time. I'm Jen Firpo I'm a training coordinator with the Vermont criminal justice training council great Rebecca Turner Hi everyone. I am the head of the appellate division and the defender generals designee David share Yes, David share assistant attorney general and co-chief of our community justice division division and AGO representative of the panel Sarah Friedman Hi, there Sarah Friedman with the council of state government justice center And Jeff Jones Hi, Jeff Jones. Whoops. Yeah, can you Jeff Jones? And I am up. I guess at large appointee of the SA's office Wonderful did I don't think I forgot anybody it's so hard because people talk and then icons disappear And it makes me a little crazy, but I think I got everyone did I if anyone got left out This is the moment to announce yourself Hot damn did it nailed it. Thank you announcements There are just two Judge Grierson sends regrets He had another meeting that came up that he had to attend this evening. And so he will not be with us Similarly chief Don Stevens who is another At-large member community member will not be able to be here and he wanted me however Given the email that I wrote yesterday to extend thanks to both Rebecca Turner and David share for preparing the two documents that Are I sent out with that email and he made a point of wanting to To thank them Those are the announcements does that that I have does anyone else have announcements can we make announcements unrelated to the topic at hand that I Wanted to I just want to pass along some information and hope that you all Will help me pass it along Some of you might know related to the Justice Reinvestment Bill the Department of Corrections is proposing a rule for earned good time and that rule Has some information in there related to victims and we're trying to make sure that we Get information out about the public comment period on the rule And then so there's information posted on our website about the public comment period and the rule is there And I just wanted to post it in the chat for people So that you could see it and pass it along to people that you think might be interested in commenting on the rule Great That's pretty do you want to say anything about that Just wanted to add also Monika, I think I'm right on this but there's a public hearing on the rule on October 26 That is that's the public comment So basically that's the information that I'm going to post for people So if you wanted to people can send comment either in writing or they can Call in or dial into this team meetings and leave comments at that meeting as well. So you are correct Pepper. Yeah Okay David one more thing if you could try Sending the email to Julie Scribner once more. She's still waiting to get in Okay, I will try again Yes, thank you. Thank you. I would do it but there's only so much multitasking I can handle All right the Tonight there really is only one Agendum item and that is the presentation a discussion of the work of the act 148 subcommittee and Consideration of those two Prioritized lists that went out to you concerning data collection As we get going though, I really would like to say People were really amazing in getting this together certainly Rebecca and David did a lot of Amazing labor in just gathering documents as did many of our colleagues everybody with the CSG Spent an enormous amount of time culling. I don't even want to think And just getting documents to us that helped us actually come up with these two These lists That you now have this is it's rather like an iceberg folks You're looking at the very very tip of it and we've spent the last month underneath the surface of the ocean that that that Huge body of stuff is all down there and it's been refined into those two lists that you have I would I Who L I mean Kristen McClure pepper Good Lord, I'm Robin Joy Karen Gannett. I I just The list goes on people were just really really amazing in pulling this together And one of the positive sides of this I think is that we now have somewhat imperfect a sense of what data exists Where they exist in what forms they exist. Oh my god Elizabeth Morris. Oh my god I can't believe I forgot her she did like an enormous amount poor woman I don't know how she like did her job and then like got all this other stuff to us I'm gonna keep doing this and forgetting people and I'm gonna be really guilty, but a lot of people Monica pulled out stuff everybody just pulled out stuff and now the state is there and I think it was Rebecca who made the comment I think half hard with a little bit of humor, but I was kind of like yeah, that's a good idea And now we need to put it in a time capsule so we have it and never lose it And it's all gonna be in one place and I think we should bury it somewhere Two-thirds the way up Campbell's hump or something and then no one will be able to get to it except us Which isn't very transparent, but it is safe so Anyway, I just really wanted to say that an enormous amount of work went into this I Normally come into these meetings as I think you know with a pretty rigid idea in my head of where to go I don't know What we got to at our last subcommittee meeting a week ago Were these two lists in priority? With priorities put down on them because we really did feel there's just no way To go to every high-impact high-discretion moment That there is in both of these systems and say we need data on all of it It's just logistically Not entirely possible though. It would be lovely So we Thought at that point that the reasonable thing to do given also that we timed it the way we did Was that this was the moment to bring all of the work back to the panel as a whole to get feedback? to get criticism and so on and Then quite possibly we go back as the subcommittee and do a bit more refining depending on your feedback and After that as far as I can tell We start writing We start writing I don't think that'll be too onerous frankly, but That would be that would be the next step I think after we take into Count things that you have as a whole body to say So having said that I Would like to invite anybody to including the subcommittee obviously to To go over those two lists one having to do with the juvenile justice system the other with the adult criminal justice system and basically attack This is the moment for it Because I imagine a fair amount of writing will take place between this meeting and next meeting along with adjusting and We'll get it into as good shape as we can get it between now and the next meeting because We won't have December's meeting the reports do before them Judge Davenport your hand is up. Oh, here we go Well, I wanted to say I was very impressed by the list of data data is I I spent Can't remember now Ten years as a chief judge in in judge Grierson's position and Had a real focus on data data is really really important so important to making Really good decisions about how how change Needs to happen. So I was really glad to see this This the both the juvenile data collection Which is near and dear of my heart because I'm on the Children and family council since since I retired I'm on now on the children and family council for Prevention programs, which is the state advisory group to the for Vermont for the to the OJJDP And is particularly important in terms of looking at juvenile data and particularly important since 18 year olds are now included as part of as delinquency or a large part of charges against 18 year olds are now included as part of the delinquency and delinquency in juvenile court and come July 1 and 2019 19 year olds will also be included. So it's very very important that we have that we That not in addition to adult data, which I don't For a minute want to detract from but that juvenile data is so important in in in terms of racial disparities so Because the juveniles that that when when you get into the system as a juvenile the likelihood is that you will continuing the system as an adult so So I was really happy to see both the The comprehensiveness and even if we can't get all of that data The fact that we are putting out a very comprehensive list of data Is It is extremely important So that's all I wanted to say. Thank you Yes, thank you Do you have any is there Are there gaps that you can see are there are there any issues that you would want us to address You know, I did not see any gaps immediately There may be there may be some but the lists are are the lists of data are pretty long Um, I'm just thrilled that uh, in a you know, it currently this statutory um requirements only Only focus on stops It assumes that somebody is in a motor vehicle And that they are stopped and it assumes an adult Someone who's considered an adult is in a motor vehicle and has stopped But there are many many other ways in which and and probably I mean I hesitate to say the majority because I never actually looked at that particular data How many people come into the criminal justice system? Who are because of a motor vehicle stop versus how many people come into the um adult system Because of for other other reasons other than a motor vehicle stop But I have to believe that it's it's it's a it's a large proportion um and juvenile data is nowhere mentioned In current statutory requirements for reporting the data So to have juvenile requirements as well as a much broader Interpretation of the kinds of data that we need Um about who gets charged Versus who gets stopped because they happen to be in a motor vehicle Um is is is really important Um, so, uh, I mean racial racial discrimination Certainly includes people who are stopped on the street for uh For for for being the you know Um as opposed to people who happen to be in a motor vehicle Um, and so I'm I'm delighted to see that it's uh to to look at a broader The the statutory requirements you need to include a much broader Um, uh definition of what needs to be kept in terms of data Great. Thank you Rebecca your hand is uh Thanks, Nathan. I actually was uh, I wanted to take advantage of the opportunity of judge Davenport being here and I appreciate you being here and um And getting your reaction specifically and I appreciate the comments on the juvenile chart I wanted to get your reaction as to our prioritization Within that sort of huge Comprehensive list of data collection Would you agree with what the subcommittee and others to of course? But part what what what aton and david did was send out charts Which was twofold right in one document for the juvenile the first page I think is or first two pages is how we prioritize The data that then in following is the comprehensive list And I think to summarize there's sort of two groups at that you can characterize the prioritization And they're similar both in the criminal juvenile system context Two groups one is metrics Right, so collecting data on metrics related to metrics demographics, right? The second group here are decision making points within this system And we started expansively from pre-charge right and an initial contact To post and the subcommittee general I generally Agreed that focusing on the front and pre in the criminal context pre-conviction And the juvenile system and delinquencies. We included the merits Um particular and I think this position david Um per and and the difference there was because of the timeliness and and the issue But the concern raised by the subcommittee is we're starting to highlight the entire Decision making point. So while you're at the second question is An emphasis and inclusion of schools in the juvenile chart recognizing that while our charge has been so focused and primarily focused on the criminal side On the juvenile system side. We wanted to somehow capture The significance of the school to prison pipeline and we tried to capture that there in the initial data Row related to initial encounters not just being limited to law enforcement or dcf But to include schools knowing that was huge And we did spend a great deal. I mean shella linton really Was very instrumental in bringing that to the subcommittees attention We were very focused initially on speaking about Encounters with a very traditional notion of law enforcement and she reminded us that for many juveniles The figures who function as law enforcement are our teachers Guidance counselors people of that nature right um so um assuming that question that question is directed at me I think it would be wonderful if we could get that data. Um, I think that data is going to be harder um because there isn't a statewide But maybe it will prompt a call for some kind of statewide data system that uh, that has to be um that as School as a school if it whether it's a teacher or a school resource officer or whoever it is Who makes that referral that they have that that has to be Um, that we have to get data on that. Um, I I think that would be amazing um, uh, it it's it it it's sort of Uh beyond a little bit what what we've ever thought of as possible, but If we could get that wow, that would be that would be huge huge I mean, I can't even begin to describe for you how different that would be from how that data would help us um Figure out policy recommendations that are That are helpful in terms of um in terms of dealing with the disparate treatment Um, we we just don't have any sense now of what that is So, yeah, I'm I I'm totally I'm totally on board with it. I hope it works. Um my uh So my my my way prior way way prior experience as a as a legislator Which I was for six years prior to becoming a judge is like, uh, they may go How how do we do all of that? But but they have the they have the ability and the authority To be able to figure that out and it is so important to trace it back To where the initial charge, you know information about the charge came from and why did you decide to charge? versus why didn't you Take this kid and put them in a, you know, say, okay, you need to do Something but you don't need to be charged um That's that that is really key and trying to figure out Where are the school districts where we have issues versus where are the school districts that are doing it, right? And saying, okay. Hey, here's the school district that's doing it right. Why can't we take what they're doing and Bring that bring that thinking to the school districts that are still struggling to figure out How do how do we deal with this kid? So anyway, my thoughts Thank you Anyone else this is This is the time to weigh in As I say, I'm not feeling very organized because I really just wanted I've wanted open feedback That's what the subcommittee needs if it's going. I mean it can certainly go back and keep going But in it needed to come to the whole panel. I guess everyone's really happy Oh Jen your hand is up Yeah, actually mine is um, it's more of a question Um, and I'm really excited to see that socio-economic level was is one of the things that we want to capture But I wondered if the committee could speak to What what did they mean by socio-economic level? Are they going to be looking at family and you know capturing a family income? Are we going to have like broad categories and How do we manage to imagine that we're going to get that information at various points? I mean I'm I'm of course thinking law enforcement and they're having an encounter with somebody and they're collecting this information Are they then as part of their stuff or you're imagining that they're going to ask? So how much do you make a year or? That would be awesome It just seems like there could be some awkward. I think it's a fantastic data point to get Um, I just wondered if you guys had any thoughts on how we were going to get there Aton could I weigh in on that? I already thought you would So we were not In this initial conversation in the subcommittee trying to really reach that question of how How we're going to get it We had a very we had this exact same conversation in the legislature when we talked about bail reform and trying to capture people's ability to pay Um, and uh, you know judge grierson who's not here tonight was very clear that you know The court doesn't have any ability to investigate people's ability to pay or to look at people's Um socioeconomic status, but we did think that it was an important data point and that we could look at things along the lines of public defender applications for instance, um And and think about um, you know My main point here is we didn't really think about how to do it But we did think that it was an important data point to consider When we look at uh, just demographic factors and sentencing disparities um, so That that was my brief You know justification for adding that in there Jessica Hi that gen's question and and pepper's response prompted a question for me First I want to say like that. I really appreciate the hard work of the subcommittee because these lists are really really comprehensive And I think like I I certainly don't see can't think of anything else that's missing or could be added In terms of data points. So my question is Did the committee so pepper kind of just said specific to um the data point that Jen identified um pepper said that the committee hadn't really talked about or or reached a conclusion about how You would data would be collected about that specific data point My question is is that a more general comment? Like it did the did the committee talk at all about I mean, this is a lot of data um, and I think it's probably beyond What crg is collecting right now? And I guess my question is like did the committee sort of talk about If we're making this recommendation to the legislature that these are important data points Like or do we are we planning to make a recommendation as to how We're going to start collecting all this data and information We might now short no because There was a moment where we all realized that we weren't data experts And That we we none of us know how to How to do data integration any of those sorts of really really Detailed technical bits of work. We don't know how to do and so there was a decision at that point to Just talk very broadly also given the fact that we don't have that much time Just to find here are some broad things and to put into the report that we recognize that these are broad recommendations we recognize that we haven't necessarily given Direction into how to come up with some of the data But at the same time we didn't want that to stop us From saying that this needs to happen And that somebody needs to be found who knows how to do this Meaning yes money Hiring someone Who does this for real? I mean, I think money is always involved for sure But I would also say I don't think we should overlook that I do think that there are resources in this state In addition to what crg is doing that may be you know come funded. I mean we have lots of universities We have a law school so I would just At this point, you know very initially suggest that we could be looking at resources With that are that that are in our own state where there are experts who do this work Okay Thank you What monica can you go and then judge that import back to you? Thank you, aton. Um, the other thing I wanted to raise on this list is The list talks about the the prioritized data We think is important, but it doesn't actually say whether or not the data is available or or Not available some of the data particularly data in the criminal justice for the adults Is available. Um, a lot of the information that comes from the department of corrections is on is on this list is available And one of the conversations we had I know karen and robin both said this at one point during one of our meetings Is that they were going to be able to go through and maybe do some analysis? And say we know that this data is currently collected and this data is not collected in order to identify some gaps And I think that will also help legislators Maybe zone in on where they want to prioritize starting the data collection pieces And my I had a second point which was also related. I think to the recommendation That we were going to sort of pull out of our report from Last year two years ago around data collection and we were just we're just going to sort of reiterate that that theme Right that there needs to be some investment somewhere In order for them to be able to answer the questions that they that they continue to ask and that we we continue to ask So thanks Judge Davenport So So I think I think one of the things that's important to remember I've had this data Is whose perspective is this data collected from? um certainly with respect to racial and ethnic identification The data is important From the perspective of the law enforcement officer who stops the person Did they stop the person because they thought that person was black? or Did they stop the person? For whatever reason um that the the the um When we look at data on in terms of Who who got stopped? Why? We're looking at data from the perspective of the law enforcement officer who stopped that person Now that person may not self identify as black but The important point is that the officer saw that person as black Or saw that person as white That's what tells us what Whether there is a disproportionality in terms of who gets stopped So I think in in addition to looking at what the data is um So someone might self identify as african-american But in fact From the officer's perception They appeared to be white And the officer viewed that person as a white person versus an african-american person That is that's really key and a lot of people don't understand that a lot of people Think that the data on who gets stopped and who doesn't get stopped Is based on who actually self identifies in what category But the reality is it's you know Whatever that person's self-identified The the importance is Who did that law enforcement officer? What did that law enforcement officer see as The the race or ethnic Identity of the person who they stopped was So It gets complicated Once the person gets into the system And maybe there's some at some point during the system There's some point where someone says okay, how do you self identify yourself? So the law enforcement officer identified that person As african-american that person actually identifies themselves as something else some Let's say an ethnic So It is complicated But you have to view it from the perception of why are you asking for this data? You're asking for this data because you want to know whether the person who made the stop or whatever made the decision is Perceiving that person as from some ethnic or racial identity versus Um, how that person might self identify And it's very it that that makes it complicated and difficult, but that is really important an important distinction to make Okay Can I can I add to that? Sure. Sorry. I I see rebecca's hand is up. Um, sorry Oh, well somebody I would I would just echo what you just said judge davin port in that we did Delve into that in the subcommittee And that's why I think We decided that the how could just Mire us down in I mean the Deadlines for this report are very aggressive I think we need to have the report submitted by december 1st Which gives us I think one more meeting after tonight of this full panel um, and so we Spent two hours talking about the how And thinking about police of you know observed versus self reported And those kind of issues that you're discussing And so that's why we kind of decided to jettison the question of how at least for now And think about these high discretion high impact decision points and make sure that we at least had something Concrete for the legislature to consider by december 1st Jeff jones you have you've been silent and have a question Or comment well as always the the longer you wait the less your comment makes Any impact however that being said, um, I I would really like to Add something to to what her honor his honor and even how you're supposed to say that now Stated which is that When a law enforcement person approaches a car, they're making financial Determination from the condition of the car from the model of the car From if there's rust is in a Mercedes and their actions from that point Are incredibly pointed And it's kind of a double bubble if you get some of the way white But they'll grab a car with a muffler hanging down And treat those people in a different way and push them into a system When normally if it was a brand new Mercedes They'd probably just give them a warning and that's I'm sorry, your honor. I hope you don't disagree with me, but that's as impactful for the poor As it is for anyone of color Rebecca I would add that we certainly did risk getting completely derailed by getting stuck on the house and and the Whose perspective was a was a critical part of it and not just the law enforcement, but At the later stages and whether or not We were making sure that the data questions was ensuring that we got that Perspective from each of the players Particularly the ones making the decision points from the prosecutor making the decisions on the charges from the judges Who are imposing the the hold without right or the secured attention or the life without possibility parole, right? So but then right a ton is right that like he was he he redirected us to be To be productive and and and in in the way that a we're not experts that that these very questions Are why we have experts in this field doing this right the data analysts the criminal justice Analyst and so I think so while we have these charts. I'm hearing so far from several People the question of house right and going to Monica Weber's point which is Which is what I would suggest here the how Came up not just the one time but sort of repeatedly as a theme in the subcommittee The how unpackage further is really to house How to initially map The data that we want to collect Right how we do that to identify data gaps and data that's currently siloed and available Right, how do we do that? second how is how do we collect the data we we uh the legislature eventually Requires and how do we do that right a second how I think monica you reference back to our older report That touched on those themes and I would encourage us as a panel is going back and reminding that And I think we touched on it on the second part of the how right where we envisioned and hoped I thought in summary Right and maybe I'm wrong. Maybe this got into the secondary or detail But it was key to that and going back to Jess's question right the capacity like looking at who has the capacity to do this And maybe it's not a single Entity right but we we look at who's available within Vermont outside So who the capacity question is is critical to the how as well as independence That we want to make sure that whoever is collecting and reporting this data Is independent right is not tied to a certain agency. That's tied with law enforcement That meets best practices and standards peer reviewed or whatever is the standard again I don't have the expertise for this The how of mapping the initial question we started getting into a little bit because the studies that csg collected that we all sort of pulled out Showed that there are programs out there You know the harvard law school life sent around that program mapped out for the massachusetts judiciary their system On data and data gaps So I understand that there are places that can come in come in and csg provides a great model Coming into the state last year doing that mapping for us and reporting back at a quarter like there are people who do this Professionally and they can do this pretty quickly so that we don't get stuck years and years later trying to figure out the initial how Okay, oh shila is back. So let's uh shila you have a comment or question Let's go to shila and then monica and then back the judge dava board Thanks, a ton Yeah, I just I want to reiterate what basically everybody's saying is that it was very specific of this subcommittee that This wasn't our focus of the how That of course we took into consideration because there were many concerns when we were bringing up discretion points Of then how would we do that? But our point is is that that's not what we've been mandated to do was the how what we've been mandated to do from my understanding and direction Is to prioritize and to figure out what are the um high discretion points And what is the data that we feel like is there isn't there has gaps or whatever that needs to be collected around racial disparities and then I want to also say that We have to sort of name it to tame it Some people know that phrase and so i'm just going to use that phrase because the phrase that many people know And part of the reason why we created these two sheets and focusing on the um juvenile song. I am so happy that you're here um judge dab import because um happy to see you actually as well as for your insight on these things because Um, I agree that juvenile is where we should be focusing and we should be focusing upstream but one of the other reasons why we sort of Name these things was really about creating These conversations So now that we've actually have these charts and people like oh wow, how are you going to do that? Before if we didn't even name it We wouldn't even be having the conversation of how of thinking about that thing Or how we might get to that thing that we want to get to So for those of you who are legislators on the call and for my personal own senator who's on the call, um that Just reminding us that we know that with many of us together We can be creative of the how And that the subcommittee that I don't know how many of there was of us like nine ten of us However, I don't even know anymore how many we're on our subcommittee We want to end all our be all to making the how happen and yes We had a lot of knowledge and expertise in that space and there's so many other people who have that to offer as well And I just hope that the legislature Will look at this and others will look at this as a means to open up our eyes of like discovering like wow Like what you said just done for like the juveniles is not even been counted I don't know the terms that you use but it's not even really accounted for in the data collection And that's like shocking and that if we were to actually do some of the things that we're suggesting in this Though it may be difficult this could totally change the dynamic and the paradigm in which we're working in So the only other thing I wanted to say Was around um some of the feedback that we actually put into this email because I just wanted to give space for other people to talk So it was on the subcommittee But since other people are not quite taking that space right now I just wanted to chime in about um what we sent out and just to reiterate um We have a section in there that was in our email bulleted number four That I believe talked about the confidentiality of information something around the sorts of that And I just want to say personally of how I feel um being on that subcommittee and I voice this on the subcommittee is that As we talk about certain discretion points and certain data that we wanted to collect such as the one that's on the bottom around Sanctions there were some concerns around um confidentiality as there is with concerns around confidentiality is because of Demographics being so small that they might identify individuals populations or people and we also discussed how That has worked to our disadvantage and how that has been actually Manipulized or manipulated into um not keeping that information so for example we talk a lot about native first nation people And a lot of times we're not able to collect that demographic information because then we're identifying those groups of people And therefore then when we go to do whatever we need to do We we use that as an excuse of well We just don't have the data even though we know that first nations indigenous People are saying hey, we're just important disproportionately impacted So I want people to when they're reading this that I take that very serious when we talk about the confidentiality both on that level of demographics as well as the level of sanctions that I'm about transparency and um and that we're humans and that we're imperfect and that That there should be checks and balances for everybody in all systems and so It makes me uncomfortable that other people feel uncomfortable Without having accountability in their roles such as judges potentially or other um people who are in power positions That they would question that accountability. And so I'm hoping again to where we express that we don't want to muddy the waters around confidentiality But I I will personally say as a person who was on that committee that I do want to muddy the waters And I do want to get messy and I do want to change the system as we've as we've known it Um and the last thing I just want to point out to people in our sections around the schools and really starting From a younger age. I'm looking at schools. You will see in that category That I see that we chose to put it as a bullet pool and not up at the top And I just want to be really clear that mandated reporters Is in that category and I don't know whether it should be up at the top I see that we wrote it in a in the bullet point of that section But I want to maybe revisit that to be at the top. So it's very distinct within those. Um First just discretion contact points that we talked about not just within schools But we talked about within our communities and how so many people With our youth specifically within our communities So many people are mandated reporters and many people many youth um have contact with the system Through a mandated reporter that is not necessarily in a school setting. So I just want to really emphasize that part And really to go off of what judge Davenport said was like that juvenile and really getting those kind of statistics and stats Though it's not currently in place Um, that's what we're here to do. We're here to shake it up We're here to change the system because if we weren't we wouldn't be talking about trying to eliminate racial disparities Thank you, uh Judge Davenport Am I okay? I think I I I I think I have once again Remembered to unmute myself It's always it's always a demanding, you know, like You know, you have to remember to do that Um with these virtual meetings. Um, such important comments. So So I guess my My take is What's important is to look at Who the decision maker is and what the decision maker perceived As being the racial or ethnic Identity of the person in front of them because there are certainly um That's what tells you whether there is Not whether the person who is actually being Uh, who is who is the defendant? For example in the in the criminal justice system or the juvenile justice system self identifies Uh, as being a particular racial in a particular racial or, um ethnic group It is how the person who makes the decision So in the case of law enforcement It's how law enforcement officer viewed the person That they ultimately charged Um, what did what did they see as that person that that person's ethnic? um Because they can't they they should not God forbid they should not be asking that person. Oh You know, what's your racial identity? What's your ethnic identity? They shouldn't be asking that That's wrong and they know that that's wrong. So the question is What did they see when they stopped that person or when they picked up that person or they? um as being their identity So So so that that is really the key and I think it's really confusing for a lot of people Because a lot of people want to see okay What percentage of the population who is charged or stopped or whatever is send self identifies as being black or being of some ethnic particular identity But that's not the question the question is What did that person pursue? What did the person who had authority? Who perceived that person What did they see? um as being their ethnic identity and I think that that is an issue that is often um It is really an issue that is that you constantly have to remind people um because we're not supposed and we shouldn't be we should not be asking Each juvenile who comes in front of the juvenile court. Oh And what do you think your ethnic identity is or what do you think you are you know? No, that is not the question. The question is what is the judge who is making this decision? Perceive that that person's identity is and did that change Did that flavor or change? their decisions about What should happen as an outcome for the case? Okay, so that's really all all I have to offer but um It is really such an important distinction and it is one that is really hard for um for folks In my experience anyway for folks to understand that that what we're looking at is not How the person self identifies but how the person is perceived by the person who had authority over them I would like to Take now Monica and then Jeff And then I want because we're at the hour point I want to sum this up to a certain degree Because I need to direct us in a direction that has to do with action points For the subcommittee going forward given that we have about Six weeks before this is due Monica Thank you, Atan. Yeah, I think this goes back to maybe Rebecca when you were speaking and some of the conversation around how and then You know links and I think um what judge Davenport was just saying I think across These intercept points there may be um different mechanisms for instance how we would identify a person's race or um other types of demographic information and We as I recall in our subcommittee conversation Recognize that maybe we're not the experts in doing that and I remember having a conversation about gender, right? What are the categories? How how do we need to ask that question on On gender maybe the same thing on race and perhaps There are differences um at these various intercept points, you know And I think I've mentioned to people in the past at the Department of Corrections You know our practice that we're really trying to work on is Ask the person how they identify and record that um In an acknowledgement of of giving them the opportunity to be able to um really tell us how they identify as a person so My point in bringing this up again is that we recognize as as a subcommittee that we weren't really sure how to answer that question And then that was one of the things we wanted to bring up in our report is that we needed To get more advice and input from experts on that particular topic right Thanks Shebeth Yeah, I guess the point of my ramble was that To me the reality is almost always rule of appearance And rule of appearance pretty much dictates from elementary school all the way up to superior court how you were treated And self identification would certainly offend most people have asked at roadside Um, I think much of what goes on is rule of appearance And I think that is it and I'm sure you're you're hip to that one Yes Okay, um I want to just sort of summarize the two main takeaways that have come out of The last hour for me and they will be incomplete, which is why we have a panel um, but that One was what Jessica brought up was some attention Even in a limited way to the how To speak about Perhaps directing the legislature to look at Resources such as the law school Um, UVM I would imagine as well places like that The other was to oh boy. I had this in my head and now it's gone Uh, Sheila wanted to put at the beginning of the Juvenile list the entire issue of mandated reporters Which goes so much further than just even being schools Um, and that that may well need to be put Really really close To the top Those are the two things that are popping out right now. There was a third I had in mind It has now gone away But David, I'm hope you're writing those down because we will need them Thank you and um If there are other people who've got some takeaways from the last hour Really focusing now folks um on what We we can go back to discussing, but I don't want to lose The takeaways that need to get back to the subcommittee That need to be included in the report Those were my two I'm looking for hands Hey, ton. I oops go for it Here's my hand. I would add to that that I heard discussion around the the critical question of of From whose perspective are we trying to get this data from? Right, we focused in the chart the decision points But of course there are lots of people involved during the decision points And I think I heard at the end there the suggestion of it being From the decision maker, right? However, I think also summarizing to defer to the experts who are not us Who to to weigh in on this right Right. Thank you anyone else As I say we can go back to the discussion. I just don't want to lose I want to take the distilled Action points so that we have something to go back and work on That's all I'm trying to do at this moment because it's six past seven any others that people have Let me also direct your attention as you think about this To my email of yesterday. Sheila already did bring your attention there that Towards the end of the email I wrote The subcommittee felt that certain points needed to accompany the documents that you now have The following points are simply a result of david's note taking and our open tree working Um, and I'm imagining also these are certainly things that will be Expanded in narrative form and put into the final report The first was The upcoming report should include the panel's recommendations About what data is important for the state to collect it will not include a study of what data may already be available or the difficulty of collecting that which is not We were quite clear about that, but we There seems to be some discussion here on that. So that's good. We're we working it to This report focuses on data in accordance with the legislature's request But qualitative feedback information and stories need to be a part of any complete study of our criminal and juvenile justice systems Robin joy spoke about that. Oh, I don't know what two months ago Really talked about qualitative analysis Sheila brings this up regularly Um, and there are people who study this right there are this is like a whole field So that's that's again not something that's just pie in the sky for those of you who don't do this Three data should be collected in accordance with evidence-based Standards and best practices For which Sheila mentioned in recommending that a wide variety of information be collected The report is not suggesting the unlawful disclosure of confidential information And lastly young people may have many contacts with adult authorities like teachers That are a critical part of the story of their potential involvement in the juvenile justice system But these contacts may not be captured by data that is limited to youth involvement with juvenile courts This information is nevertheless vital to understanding our juvenile justice system It sounds to me like we've gone through these But if there's more, please feel free Tyler that you're looking very thoughtful I can't hear you Sorry about that. Can you hear me now? So there's a lot to think about here and I'm trying very hard to you know Get caught up to to where the group is at and that clearly a huge amount of thinking has gone into this um And I think just as you were as you were discussing there a moment, um I'm also thinking about how judge Davenport's point I take very well that we need to be looking at the perceptions of people making decisions around other people But also I think there's some questions coming up in my head About the perceptions people have of the interactions being had to or you know that are Projected to them. And so particularly when we talk about school If I'm a student and I perceive a teacher or an authority figure addressing me in a certain way That is different than my peers or something like that that that seems a data fact, you know data point in there too And all these I it's impossible for me to at this point carry this without my brain wanting to go into the how question So it's it's it's always a tantalizing of how do we get at that question? So I do appreciate the wisdom of this group acknowledging that that's something that we need to package separately And give to people who do that I didn't even want to go there. I had a moment frankly just I just had a moment We were getting lost in the weeds. We were just just How how how and it was like, oh my god, we're not any of us qualified for this We don't have the knowledge for this So just stop That's not what the rdap is So, yeah, it's tempting. We know We know just how tempting it is Anyone else Rebecca So I take that question to be a comments on those lists those one through fives that We're in that email. You just read I just want to make sure that point four which goes to And recommending that a wide variety of information be collected the report is not suggesting The unlawful disclosure of confidential information. I just want to make sure that david Or we capture Sheila's point that she made earlier, right, which is The caveat is sure If there are laws on the books, right, we're not suggesting anyone break laws However, the reason why we need this and maybe there needs to be revisit Right of of things to prevent this the key is transparency and accountability And not just at one, you know, not just in law enforcement, but all the people who are making these key decision Decisions so that was one. I just want to make sure that was captured and then back to one which again I think you made reference to it, which is your last sentence there It will not include a study of what data may already be available or the difficulty of collecting. I just want to make sure that that Even if we are not getting into the weeds on the house because we are not experts That i'm hearing from this discussion that a there's this sort of Natural instinct as it was in the subject committee to kind of be like, oh gosh, how can we think of asking for this? It's it seems impossible. I feel like we should in our report and I think it's referenced in number three here Which I like that goes to the collection and I suppose How I see sort of the house as an initial how The initial data mapping of the system to see what data exists and doesn't exist Based on the identified decision points that should be collected on There's not how and then there's the secondary how right who's going to do this Um, I I hear us. I mean we made a suggestion on the bigger how Right, I suggest that we don't hesitate to provide some general guidance Which is I think that's I think you talked about it with just with the reference to Jess's point with resources, right? I think resources Within vermont, but it's also the expertise and and when we talk about that. I'm also talking I want to just make sure capacity and independence is added Oh, yeah, okay. So that I just wanted to make sure those points I think that we have the ability To suggest that and I I feel like that is consistent with sort of some themes that have been coming up throughout the panel Yes, and I think it's critical to get in this report I I hear you. Thank you Uh, David Yeah, so, um, just responding to that I was thinking about the exact same thing rebecca with respect to shillis point I on bullet four I tried to capture that kind of by omission, which is never a good way to try to capture something um, but The I think we should say explicitly at the end of that bullet point That there is uh, you know at a sentence that says something like and we can refine this in the subcommittee, but says something like Um, this is not to make any judgment or recommendation about what should what information should or should not be confidential And make it very clear that we are leaving that point up for discussion um, and sort of leave open shillis point leave that open for debate shillis point about, um Uh, let's think hard about what needs to be transparent here Uh, because I think that's valuable and not one that we should unintentionally foreclose By not being clear about that And with respect to your the other point about, um You know what dad is available It does sound to me like remove, you know that my notes that I transferred into bullet point form It does sound to me like we are making a little bit of an amendment there in terms of Perhaps we will make some notes about what is available or unavailable. I think that's fine. I don't think we should be Wetted to that bullet point or those prior thoughts and if we have we can get we can gather some of that without too much Challenge, I think it's fine for the subcommittee to spend a little bit of time Just doing a brief outline perhaps of a caveat that this may not be complete but a brief outline of what is available Well, and we also have don't forget and I should have said this earlier monica pointed it out That the crime research group had said that when we Actually get these lists in some kind of final form Which is pretty close. I think from what i'm hearing they will then take them and determine what information is available now and Make that's available to us so we can put that in the report Monica you had your hand up I do I I think I need a clarification and it may not be Something we can do with this meeting but the bullet point three Data should be collected in accordance with evidence-based standards and best practices and then I heard a lot of people talking about independence of collection and independence I think of analysis Which I think is really important, but when we use the word collection. I guess I I I'm curious if we're talking about sort of the primary collection point, right, which is I'm going to speak from my perspective from the department of corrections The data that would likely be used is data that our staff are putting into a database and maybe that's the same for for dcf, right? and So the independence of the data collection there In order to Achieve this sort of like high quality pure data doesn't seem to fall in line with what I think we're talking about unless the white collection you mean Taking that primary data from different departments and putting it together and collecting it in an independent way and then analyzing it And I'm not trying making my point, but I saw a couple of people nod so Tyler if you you If you understood what I said and have some different way of saying it maybe that would help Yeah, absolutely. I think what I'm hearing you say monica is that we need to use all of our agencies to look into what data we can But that data be furnished to somebody who independently is analyzing said data, right? Right. We're gonna collect it Yeah, we're collecting the data And I heard some conversation around independence of data collection And I so I just want to maybe we need to make a distinction around the collection and the people who are actually analyzing it Okay, I get it now. Thank you. Sorry. No, thank you, Tyler It may be a matter of my own density Judge Davenport um, so just to keep in mind that uh in juvenile proceeding as in criminal proceedings law enforcement is required to uh indicate when um the law enforcement officer who made the The stop or the charge or whatever it is um indicate what their perception is And we have 20 20 percent Of law enforcement officers right now who are saying with respect to racial or ethnic identification I don't know Now, I don't know really does not help us Uh or unknown. I think that that I think it's unknown It doesn't help us. It doesn't help us know what that that that officer Saw with respect to that person Um, in a in a way it's saying well, it's unknown because I didn't ask that person what their racial or ethnic identity was Well, that's not the point. The point is Your perception of what the racial and ethnic for ethnic identity is And if you have 20 percent of the cases in in juvenile That you don't know that that are unknown that Really skews your tata in terms of the degree to which The degree to which there is an ethnic disparity or racial disparity so You know, I I think it's really important to make sure that Law enforcement officers or whatever the whatever the identity of the person who's making the decision Understands that this is their perception. This is not the self identification of the person that they've stopped This is their Perception of who this person is Because otherwise you end up with you you don't you end up with data. That's not very helpful I I think I I just I do you have to say here I I I can very easily imagine being in a position and often m Where I do not know the race of the person I'm talking to And I can very I look at them and go there's some form of brown What form I have no idea And I think we do though have to take that into account that it's fair For someone particularly in the emerging demographic of the united states To say I'm not actually sure what this person is Three law enforcement officers of my acquaintance have said to me That they get completely confused with someone and they don't know what to write down And they're really frustrated by it partly because a lot of the categories for instance on the tickets Don't seem particularly relevant So I I hear what you're saying, but I also think we do have to Accept the idea that someone really doesn't know And I guess my response would be how then do you reckon? How did then do you evaluate racial disparity? Do you evaluate based on the 80 percent? that Had had a perception of one or the other Or do you evaluate it? You know that that that's the question and and I think it's it's a hard one Yeah, because it can make a in vermont. It can make a huge difference sure Tyler you had your hand up and then rebecca turner I don't know if rebecca if you had an answer for judge davin port because I was uh Approaching a different can of worms So I I could welcome you somebody else to respond if they had a response for judge davin port Tyler it's rebecca Hi, I I just posted it. I did I was just responding and I posted in the chat Just now and and the question the suggestion perhaps is should we recommend and it sort of goes to the howl or howl You know, whether it's in one or four to suggest not just the consultation of experts and and Monica's point on clarifying collection and analysis but also suggests that there's training Uh appropriate training for the ones who are collecting Yeah Jen Fair foe So on this subject of training, um, I can let the cat out of the bag a little bit because we actually now have confirmation that we got the grant But the vermont criminal justice training council. Yeah, yes has gotten a grant um that will um Give will allow us to hire someone to give all of vermont law enforcement training on race on race data collection In conjunction with traffic stops And that's all going to happen theoretically next year assuming that we get the money when we're scheduled to get the money and the whole state contracting Uh process doesn't blow up in our faces, but but that's that's where we're headed with that so there there's some Resources being allocated. We're so excited Money And jumping in one more point on that I I meant not just training but consequences wasn't their legislation david julio recently uh That passed or I forget consequences for police to not provide the data required by the legislature related to funding Yes, absolutely. Um, they're not going to be if they don't collect their race data They are not going to be eligible to get grants So we should make that recommendation here as well like you don't collect this We're going to train you how to collect it. You don't deliver these unknowns are unacceptable, right? Okay And and and it should be related to more than just stops I agree, but the but the grant specifically it's it's through governor's highway safety. So it is specifically targeted at Stops, unfortunately, and I don't know I haven't read the whole grant yet myself So I don't know how much wiggle room there is in there I'm hoping Some because I have frankly other fair and impartial things that I'd like to spend some of that money on but we'll see what we can do Tyler Thank you very ton. Uh, the the thing I wanted to mention earlier that was bubbling in my head It was a thought prompted by um, something that sheila brought up earlier when we were talking about Um confidentiality Versus transparency And I think that point for me is well taken that uh, if we are using confidentiality as a as a method by which to not be transparent that is Indicated indicative of a really problematic behavior from a system's perspective I've also taken part in enough evaluations to understand that Um, uh, you know when you have internal review boards involved when you're doing, you know a study or something like that They want to make sure that you can't be identifying specific people And so for me, I fully support the idea of systems being laid bare in terms of transparency Um, but uh, I caution us to to exercise caution. I guess I would encourage us to exercise caution when it comes to the impact of individual people who could be, um identified or you know, that that could have an impact on people's life So, um, it's just something to be mindful of that might be a little bit of a how question Or how far Okay anybody my sense if is that with these caveats which David has written down in his wonderful way Um, the subcommittee needs to go back Refine this a bit the the these two documents um Turn our attention to the matters that have been raised this evening Have some limited discussion on these matters And I would say begin to write um If How to put this if anyone would like to write This would be a good time to volunteer If not, I will Do my thing and you guys can Take it apart and put it back together and have fun Um, and I'm certainly willing to do that, but if someone else would really love to do it That's fine too I thought I saw Rebecca's hand go up. I did you're gonna write it Uh with you and and maybe David All right, Jess All right. No, okay. I'll I'll I'm hoping I'll have some help, but I'm happy to My fantasy with that Yay Sometimes in 2020 you get what you want Who knew? So Should we vote on that? No, David shaking his head Okay Someone needs to make it into a motion because I can't By definition, but what I'm suggesting Is that the points that have been raised this evening? About the point the bullet point the two bullet pointed sheets prioritized sheets Be given back to the subcommittee for further discussion and refinement And that we begin to write the report um The draft of the report bearing all of this in mind And that would be what my suggestion is Someone else would need to make a motion This is Jessica I'll put my face on Oh, I'm I'm I make a motion um that the subcommittee further refine the documents that they shared with us today To eventually turn that into a written report which will be written by Aetan and Rebecca and maybe some other people if they can recruit them. That's my motion I second anybody sec. It's been seconded inserted all in favor Okay Got it Great all opposed All abstentions Motion is carried That's what we're gonna do So um Then the subcommittee will meet a week from today From one to three um Invitations will be sent out And we will go from there. I also just want to say where I think I'm delighted. I think we're in much better shape than I Really thought we were gonna be in two months ago. I was not happy I was actually distinctly unhappy But I'm happier now Not that that matters But I am happier. I think I think I think it matters. I think it matters that you're happy Well, thank you. I I mean, I just feel like we're in a position to actually get something done And give it to people who are at the moment Turning their attention towards this and I think that's exciting Um and moving frankly and moving um If there's I would then like to move along then to Is there any new business that people would like to oh wait wait Sheila She really snuck your hand up Thank you, Aiton. Um, so I just had like some clarifying questions before we actually move away from this I'm wondering if there's any tools or additional resources that people have to offer in the room for our discussions like if people are for if we're Really on the subcommittee looking at the house a little bit and if we're looking at any more Things that have come up for people are their resources are their things and I'm going to give an example What came up for me when we had this conversation that I would like somebody to get us the information for if that's possible A few people have mentioned our relevancy of the codes Something of which, um, I guess, um, it was specifically mentioned in traffic stops that there are all these codes and rather the Relevant or not in terms of how we identify people And and it's come up like I think a year ago Those came up a little bit in a discussion but I'm actually wondering what those codes are and if those codes could be supplied to us because I really Um thought it was interesting to think about whether the codes are relevant to how we need to collect data based on race now And it made me think of when people were talking about and specifically judge Davenport was around it's the Person and power and how what their perception of the identity is It started to really make me think, um Of really, um of Of sort of the point is is are they Black brown non-white You know, so it's like yes Um, like people might look at me and I could be perceived as ambiguous Some people might not even consider me a black person. I don't know. I'm not really sure how people perceive But the point the point is is like are we are these You we talk about these codes and how we identify people and we're talking about racial disparity So even if the perception of the identity and they're like, I don't know To me if you don't know that if you have to think twice about whether that person is non-white Maybe the questions that we're trying to ask are not so Um specific like is it black? Are they latino? Are they indigenous? Maybe it's like are they a brown or black person or are you to perceive them as white? And not to have it in the weeds because you're absolutely right. There's so many of us, especially in the state of vermont Who are considered racially ambiguous who identify with multiple racial identities at once Who can pass? I mean, there's so many nuances to that So I really I'm really interested on the how and really interested and I'm I'm disappointed that that grant only looks at traffic stops as we've said here today that I would like to know um as well the um Sort of the difference between the traffic stops and the um encounters that are not traffic stops Um, so I think it was judge Davenport that brought that up in the beginning as well around That differentiation and I'm really curious about that. So, um, those are my thoughts I would really like to see more of that because I would like to not work within the system that isn't working for us I would like to see what pieces of that system Are not working and then change those pieces and if there are pieces of the system that we think are working Which I'm not sure there is but um, if there is then to build off of that Sheila, I can get those categories for you from traffic stops I'll bring those to the next meeting And it sounds as though I guess the other question I have with that too Do they collect data that are non traffic stops? And it wasn't I I wasn't clear to me If we can get that that as well and if those codes are the same And I remember when we had the data session like a year ago Or maybe with Stephanie. Maybe it was um That that each department's codes don't align with each other as well. So are you talking about the codes? I'm not even sure Where that source is coming from if what I heard is correct that each department And his codes at least that was different and how they interface with them Okay Jen Yeah, so I feel the first I just want to tell you that I personally I share your disappointment that that grant money is only on traffic stop data, but unfortunately as I'm sure you know with with grants They put the people giving us the money put the strings on the money and it stinks but But I wanted you to know that I absolutely share your disappointment there As far as the the codes if you're talking about The the back of the ticket the the race options I don't know that those are necessarily the same for everything other than traffic stops I think that probably depends on whether they're what Computer system they're using to keep their data and it's pretty much spillman or valcor So And and and they don't talk to each other that well yet, but Yay Sarah Friedman Sarah Okay, Sarah's not here. I guess Oh Okay, I'm so sorry my computer went green when I tried to unmute But I I just wanted to say and I'm happy to talk about this further in the next subcommittee meeting, but um I do have guidance from the csg justice centers research director on how We recommend best practices of collecting race data throughout different points in the criminal justice system So this is not traffic stop specific Um, but related to those other discretion points We do have a little bit of guidance and kind of what's considered best practices On on collecting race data. Um, I think I might have mentioned this at a previous meeting But um, it's it's not extensive or very detailed But kind of broad strokes about what our research shop recommends around this Okay Thank you Judge Davenport Yeah, the answer is yes in terms of when a charge gets filed whether it's an Adult criminal or it's in a juvenile matter The petition or Informate information in the adult context Will reflect What the law enforcement officer? perceived The race as being but that could be unknown So, um That that's an option it So it's race or ethnic Ethnic identity or it could be unknown There is nothing that I know of that tracks The judicial officer in the judiciary system, which is all I really know about Um In the judiciary system, there's nothing that tracks what the judicial officer's perception is When they sentence a A defendant When they decide on a particular sentence for a defendant There's nothing that The the race or ethnic identity Would still be the perception of the officer at the time of The arrest or The bringing the charge There's nothing that tracks what the judicial officer viewed that person as so for example, if there was a person Who going back to an earlier conversation? who the police officer Identified as being white But when they're actually in the courtroom the judicial officer perceives them as having Another ethnic or racial definition Um, there's nothing that would tell you that What you get From the court data is whatever came in when from the That that tracks back to The law enforcement officer's perception of identity Does that make sense? Yes all right now I am asking for new business If there is any I am taking that for a no Well then I will close us out tonight By first of all just saying thank you to everyone. This has just been an extraordinary amount of Cogitation work Just grunt labor of finding things online and I It's it's been really inspiring And maddening and wonderful and We will convene again as a full body on the 10th of november from 6 to 8 p.m Once again here in cyber land um And I'm hoping everyone will be well both intellectually and Emotionally as well as physically I would entertain motions to adjourn Or not I'll make a motion to adjourn I'll second I'll second all in favor of going home now Or wherever I am home, but yes, okay all opposed for some unknown reason And those abstaining Oh, hell. I'll just abstain grand Everyone have a great month And I will talk to you all next week some of you and the rest of you Sometime before the 10th of november be well Thank you. Thank you everyone. Thanks. Thank you everyone