 is joining us. Okay, Neil, I don't know if you still need the notice because I heard the recording is already underway, but we'll start in about 10 seconds. So that's your warning if you still needed it. I think we're streaming already. Okay, good morning, good afternoon and good evening to everyone wherever you are. I hope you are all doing well. Before I introduce myself and the panel, I'd just like to let you know that we have interpretation into French and Spanish for this session. So if you'd like to listen in another language, either of those two, they're your options, please click on the globe icon at the lower part of your Zoom window and select that language. Okay, my name is Rowan Bennett and I'm a land administration advisor for Cadastra International in the Netherlands and the current chair of the International Federation of Surveys Commission 7 on Land Management and Cadastra. And I warmly welcome you to this webinar on Responsible Scaling of Fit for Purpose Land Administration with the sub theme of balancing tech and governance challenges. This is the first webinar in a Responsible Scaling Series initiated by the Netherlands Enterprise Agency, acronym RVO, and the Land Portal Foundation as part of the Land at Scale program that runs out of the Netherlands. Land at Scale, as I said, is a Dutch land governance support program financed by the Netherlands Ministry of Foreign Affairs and managed by RVO. As many of you know, FFPLA is celebrated for its affordability, speed, and flexibility focus. And this puts it in contrast to conventional forms of land administration that we've used in the past. Its origins date back well over 10 years, although it's the acronym and the catch line we have been using in the domain for the past decade. The model itself or philosophy itself really interweaves both the spatial and legal, but also institutional dimensions and a lot of work by the World Bank, a lot of work by FIG, but also the Global Land Tool Network underpins the global formulation of FFPLA. So today's focus for us in this webinar will be this juxtaposition between the rapid technological advances that we've been seeing in the domain and the geospatial domain in terms of data collection and the often slower evolution of the legal and institutional frameworks that enable those. So while we can gather data swiftly and build technical systems more cost-effectively, the long-term considerations regarding maintenance, updates, and so forth remain really paramount and key issues, especially when we start to talk about scalability. So we're going to delve in the next 90 minutes or so into deeply into the intricacies of legal and institutional aspects that are essential for sustainable land governance shifts. And we're going to look at striking the right balance or participants and our speakers will talk about experiences in terms of how to strike that right balance between technology and the fundamental blocks that are key to achieving lasting and scaled impact. So we hope to shed light on integrating these strategies and to emphasise the significance of involving non-technical stakeholders outside the surveying and land administration domain in the conversation. Few logistical notes before we begin the webinar, as you may have seen, is being streamed live on multiple platforms. And please note that live tweeting is occurring for this event from the LAN portal Twitter account and the hashtag we are using is hashtag land at scale. So feel free to join in the conversation there. We have created a social media kit for the event which has been shared with you in the chat. So take a look in the chat now if you want to get access to that. And if you do have questions, we would encourage you to post them in the Q&A section and you can get that by clicking the Q&A button at the bottom of the screen and we are going to answer those questions later on in the webinar as much as we can get to noting that we have got several hundred participants and a bit more registered for this webinar. Just finally in the interest of transparency, I should add that today's session is being recorded and you will receive a link to the video afterwards. Also an article with the key messages will be made available later in the LAN portal's website. Okay that's all the background and logistical matters out of the way. Let's get down to business and allow me to introduce our excellent speakers. So I'm joined by a really exciting panel today and they're going to be helping me and and you unpack the issues that I've just remained mentioned up above. So in in no particular order or if there is, I certainly didn't put the order together. Here are our speakers. First we have Remy sorry Remy. I'm just terrible at the pronunciation but you'll correct me I'm sure. And Remy is a VNG international sorry Remy, country. I did rehearse that before we started and I just totally mucked it up for you. So forgive me. His VNGs who he will explain well that is in international countries representative in Burundi. He's a governance expert who has been working with passion on local governance, peacebuilding and conflict transformation and gender transformation issues in the domain and that country. And he's done that so for 15 years in different contexts including Burundi but also South Sudan, Chad and Malawi. So welcome Remy. Our second panelist is Clistel Vandenberg and she's the regional manager for Cadastra International and she collaborates with ministries, embassies, universities, global businesses and financial partners including the World Bank and the European Union in her work and she manages an expert team focused in on African context and actively contributes to national land administration modernization programs and I guess the key one there in the last few years in her portfolio has been the country of Benyans. So we'll be hearing about that shortly. Our third speaker is. Yes, no welcome aboard. Our third speaker sorry I'm not even giving people a chance to say hello but I'm conscious of time but thank you and do cut on me as needed. Third speaker is the excellent Israel Tawal from who is our young professional so we've got the young professionals covered as well. He's also chair of FIG commission seven point working group seven point two and he'll explain a little bit what that is but it is focused specifically on FFP LA. He is a geomatics lecturer at the federal politic Nick of Adi Akiti in Nigeria. He champions the use of geospatial science for sustainable development and bridges the academic practical divide in that regard with a robust background in geotechnical geospatial tech and roles in national and international surveying bodies he's deeply committed to local and global impact so Israel welcome aboard. Okay and Al you want to say something maybe should have. Yeah, thank you so much. Welcome aboard. No great to have you here and our final panelist is Pak Virgo Arresta Jaya who is general director of the land and spatial survey and mapping directorate for the ministry of agrarian affairs and spatial planning and the national land agency in Indonesia and he also serves on the honorary council of the Indonesian surveyors association and is the vice chair of the working group on cadastral land management for the UN GGIM in Asia Pacific region. So there are speakers that's the background and the way we're running the webinar is typical of how we run land portal webinars where we've got a range of questions and we'll be buzzing around to our different speakers and threading through them and then eventually leading to the more open Q&A session. So to get things rolling I've got an opening general question really to all the panelists because I think it's important that we get a baseline view on where you will stand and how you understand the concept. So I'm going to ask all the panelists how they understand the term FFPLA whether they feel it's a parting fad or is it just a rebranding of something it's been before or is there something new in a real substance here when we talk about FFPLA what's all the buzz about. So I'm going to first give the floor to Israel our youngest member of the panel Israel tell us about FFPLA from your perspective. Thank you so much Rohan and good afternoon to everybody from everywhere in the world. I'm excited to be in this place and I'm happy that I have this opportunity to tell you about FFPLA which is what the FIG working group 7.2 does. I'd like to say that FFPLA is both a concept and an approach to land administration and management and what it does is to ensure the flexibility, inclusiveness, participativeness, affordability, reliability, attainability and upgradability of land administration and management practices. Now when I say flexible means both the legal, the institutional and spatial frameworks are flexible enough to serve the needs of the population that it intends to meet and then also inclusive to ensure that there is everybody can interact with the land administration system to be able to access security for their tenure. Also participatory such that the population itself, the people can as well be able to interact with the system and then affordable. So cost wouldn't be a problem while somebody does not have security to his tenure and then reliable, time bound and then upgradable. Also I would like to quickly say concerning the question that Ron had today about if it's a passing fad or not. I would like to say the time FFPLA can not be a passing fad not in the sight of all of the inefficient and ineffective or sustainable land administration practices that we have all over in different parts of the world. I mean we have challenges ranging from tenure insecurity to inequitable access to land and then to gender deprivation and then to informal land markets, environmental degradation, underutilizing of land resources, barriers to economic growth and just so many of them. Now all these things with all of this, the FFPLA cannot be a passing fad because it seeks to use all the six principles I mentioned earlier to address some of these challenges or all of these challenges. And I like to say that as long as ineffective and inefficient and unsustainable land administration practices exist, the concept and the approach of FFPLA land administration will always remain imperative. I mean it's never going to be a passing fad rather it represents a significant shift in how we manage our land, in how land has been administered and it's having a special focus on practicality and cost effectiveness to ensure that security of tenure can be ensured not just for your population but for the whole population that it's supposed to serve. I'd like to conclude on this first question Rohan that FFPLA is a substantive approach to land administration and I say that because not just because of the nomenclature FFPLA as an academic term or a professional term but rather I like to say that FFPLA is actually something that you and I can interact with and then it's something that we need to look at professionally and of course in reality to work in practice. I mean in practice we have people out there who are implementing these principles so myself personally I've done that before and then all of us most of us in this place who have interest in land my task actually have implemented FFPLA at one point or the other. So I think I'll have to stop for now because of my time thank you so much Rohan. Thanks very much Israel for giving us the opening lines there and I think you've given us quite a positive and comprehensively positive view on your views as a young professional and a young academic working in the land sector with regards to what FFPLA offers and how it can be implemented. I want to now jump over to Virgo who obviously works in a different country in a different context and at a different scale so to speak. I mean Indonesia's got some incredible numbers around it. Virgo what's your initial thoughts to the question I asked earlier about FFPLA and what it offers or maybe doesn't offer. Okay thank you Rohan. So good evening everyone it's 8 p.m. here in Indonesia so a bit dark here not a good lighting but thank you Rohan for the question. As a practitioner and a policymaker I think for Indonesian government FFP of it for proposed land administration is it's just a matter of choice between three options between the speed the price and the quality so which one do you choose. So before then it was a very long and inexpensive process in land registration in Indonesia so it's not affordable for everyone and we choose at a time which is the good quality because we want to secure the title and because of that the process is lengthy and only the rich people can afford to register their land especially to secure the title and also for getting loan from the bank. So the land registration for the last from the 1960 to 90 to the 2015 is actually driven by the people by the people. So government realized that and in the last five years since 2015 the government taking this into serious matter right and then we think that we should attract the investment and we want to have a mass land registration so we choose the first two options the speed and low price first so we we try our best in the last couple of years like five seven six years to have the FFP using the cheap method and speedy method so and for the last question is it a passing fact I don't think so because I think the option the those three options will be relevant I think in a quite long time and only probably our choice is shifted yeah whether right now the purpose is to give all people the title or to register their land probably in the future the purpose is to to increase the accuracies but the FFP itself the three options the speed the quality and the price will remain the same and will remain long lasting thank you man thank you Virgo and I'm really glad you've brought up this this tripartite issue of of speed cost and quality because it has been that you know the triangle of the challenging triangle where we normally can only get two two points out of the three satisfied but as you've sort of mentioned there with with technology development and new ways of thinking about process all of a sudden the ability to move towards you know achieving all three at once becomes a reality not there yet but obviously more so than it was previously Christelle I want to bring you in there for your thoughts we've heard from academia we've heard from the the applies in government you work with a development agency and with donors what's your what's your view on FFP LA with your most recent country that looks beautiful thank you Rowan thank you first of all I would like to thank land portal and the landed scale team rvo to invite me for this webinar well regards your question Rowan I don't think that fit for purpose is about at all I would rather say it's at the beginning of the development because by now it has become like a well-known concept in the domain of land or land administration land governance and this is I think really different than 10 years ago however and this is where I maybe come a bit more critical we must be careful that fit for purpose won't become like a general term or some kind of buzzword I would say and of course everyone wants affordable 10-year security for all people in a short time but it entails a lot according to me here lands and lands tennis security it is about it is about data collection about registration data storage maintenance it's about data dissemination and yeah the reason why I said fit for purpose is at the beginning of the development is that the focus of fit for purpose according to me and what I see in my work is still a bit too much on the data collection side and to make it affordable for everyone in a short time it means according to me it's finding smart good enough solutions for every step and yeah this is why I also would say do not scale up until all these steps are covered and I think this is where we are going to talk about during this webinar about scaling up and this is yeah I would like to raise thanks Christelle yeah and I think it's that is absolutely right in terms of what we are going to unpack in this webinar because it is all about scaling and you know while the FFPLA tools are there for the parcel level or you know numbers hundreds of parcels when we start talking millions it's where those those governance and institutional issues really have to be thought of early and dealt with early so thanks for raising that and we will definitely come back to that Remi you've been sitting there patiently can we get your initial insights from your experiences more in the eastern part of Africa I'm a bit unsure whether I'm hearing Remi just connecting are you good to go Remi he may have just dropped off for a second okay Remi we're just coming back to you for the first question your initial views on FFPLA so Flory's yours it's a governance approach land governance it's an approach that really regards technical issues we need to be reliable we need to be financially or financially reliable and it should give a land management system meaning that the land can be exploited easily and it should facilitate political procedures my understanding of the FFPLA is really in line with this but also it's about rights rights that take into account securing rights in terms of land management is also concerns certain ideas that my predecessors took into account is it just a passing fad no no it's not it actually intakes me to account the future it's a long-term concept because it's based on a holistic analysis and it's good that we're going to take this into account it has a direct impact on communities and it considers power aspects within all of this power dynamics was is should this be considered a stable approach well I didn't quite the question that are we all still together then I'm more than welcome to I think for now I'm just going to stop there I was saying that it's not about it's not an academic question but it's something that has an effect on our real citizens today and we also it's also really about concerning our rights so there you go that's my contribution to the first question you asked thank you all the panelists for getting us going as you can see there we've got a bit of a unanimous panel on you know baseline thoughts on FFPLA is it relevant yes does it work yes but a few mentioned of the concerns around scaling with regards to institutional and governance issues and and that's why we're having this webinar because we've been able to show in pilot and demonstrations absolutely for over a decade that FFPLA works we've got great examples of countries where it works at scale but we've still got examples of land administration projects where we do struggle to get results even sometimes when so-called FFPLA techniques are being applied so why is there the difference let's now drill down into some more specific questions targeting on each of our panelists and their their area of interest and specialty Israel I want to come back to you you're our designated younger professional and you know obviously working in Nigeria in both training of young land administration practitioners but also a bit in the field with your practice are you are you seeing FFPLA now mainstreamed into the courses in in Nigeria and in the region and are you seeing it practiced more in the field by perhaps not only emerging graduates but also older older hands in the land administration sector over to you thank you yeah thank you so much Roman I'll say yes it's an emphatic yes that gradually the FFPLA has been mainstreamed into training and practice and I would like to see also that the concept comes with practical implications at the grassroots levels where it empowers communities and their individuals to secure their own land rights in a cost-effective and pragmatic manner now the the importance of the concept and we continue to grow as ten years security remains crucial in many parts of the world more importantly the successes that have been experienced in various countries like in Rwanda in Ghana in Uganda and so many other parts of the world makes it's evidence that FFPLA has been mainstreamed into practice for example in Rwanda where 100 percent coverage of land registration was was recorded some years back that's a very great news that's a good news for the whole concept itself and not just that in Uganda so in Uganda in particular I personally volunteered in the land registration process in Patel in 2018 during a pilot and that was with the volunteer communities of yours program and after this time I am happy to always hear of the good news of how these practices have been obscured gradually and going into the the the mainstream of what is now practicable in Uganda as a nation to have for their to secure their tenure rather now not just that even in Ghana in Ghana I like the idea of Ghana because like what Christel mentioned is that we shouldn't consider FFPLA as a booze word but in Ghana I like the idea that the name doesn't come like FFPLA it comes like something digitalization and then but most importantly is that the principles of the FFPLA are being used and then it's distracting land registration and it's making tenure security I mean it's making people have access to better security of their own tenure I mean it's giving them access to a land registration system they are able to access it better they are able to they are short of the process the more and that is what it is and this is a common into practice to stay so I like to also say that there are challenges in transforming from pilots to scale though but then with increased capacity building and advocacy and then migration of FFPLA approaches into service delivery I believe that these challenges will be overcome so I think I should stop here for now again Ruman thank you so much you thanks Israel for explaining how in those various countries you've mentioned you're seeing it the concept translated into both education and practice let's move let's move back to Virgo Virgo you know Indonesia sometimes very very humble but it's not without saying that ATR, BPN and has an Indonesian more generally has achieved something quite remarkable over the last five years often and Israel you mentioned earlier the case of Rwanda that's kind of been the the the story of FFPLA that's been cited over the last over the last decade in terms of you know that really scaled implementation country-wide coverage using using imagery using grassroots surveyors to collect around 10 million parcels in a number of years which was quite you know unprecedented comparatively but Indonesia's kind of gone in a magnitude greater on that so you know it's not without its challenges but can you tell us how FFP I think you already did it earlier you did tell us how how and why FFPLA was adopted but perhaps you can give us a little bit more detail about that story and what's really driven it and some of the the outcomes and results you've been seeing over the last five years okay thank you Rohan probably I should inform you that Indonesia is not as lucky as a European country I just come back from Netherlands and just inform that Netherlands has finished their cadastral in 1803 or 1806 whole parcel has been surveyed and mapped in Indonesia we've been struggling to register the whole land parcel since 1960 since we introduced our land registration until 2015 as I mentioned earlier the register the registered parcel were only 46 million parcels the annual progress approximately less than 1 million parcel per year so even we don't know what is the total number of of the parcel in Indonesia and we do the estimation the estimation is around 126 million parcels in Indonesia because in Indonesia we manage our cadastral centralized yeah so if with the current speed less than 1 million probably the next 80 million say the next 80 years we will we will have our complete land registration in all over Indonesia so the change actually driven by our new government our new president who wants to attract investment as much as possible so we will we want to raise our rank in every indicator in every indicator attract the investment indicator including east of doing business indicator registering property every indicator our president push push us to to hire our rank and in land registration we need they ask us to do what you call it extraordinary method so I think FFP is the the right one yeah for us put aside the good quality put aside the good accuracy first we more focus on the total number so in 2015 we start with the 3 million and the following year 16 5 million and since 2017 we also help our by the word bank loan and then at its starting that time we call it our project with the FFP land administration the the complete name is systematic complete land registration using the participatory mapping so we ask everyone we ask people to help us include we we put all our resources all of our budget and some parts of our budget also funded by the word bank and progress is with the with all the efforts right now we managed to register 107 million parcel so 19 million parcel to go in the next two years hopefully we can achieve those target in in one or two years okay thank you thank you thanks Pacfogo yeah it's a really really remarkable story and I really encourage people to look into that one one further how it was done I think you've mentioned a few good points there one of the key ones there obviously it being a presidential target and I think that's what we also saw in the case of Rwanda when it's a high level priority you get that mobilization of the agency but also the resources to do the kind of work and then you get the dyno buy in as well as they can see that support I think another thing you've mentioned there Pacfogo which is an interesting one in both your responses is this purpose the changing purpose so you've really focused in on let's get the tenure security right first before we worry about other purposes that might be to do with you know economic development and so forth and that can then inform the type of technologies and approaches that are being used so thanks very much for that let's let's go back to Remy Remy we've heard a bit from Indonesia there we've mentioned Rwanda I guess that in in both those cases you might say it's been quite a centralized approach FFP LA approach if we want to call it that quite successful as we've heard you're working in Burundi and whilst Burundi is obviously a close neighbor to Rwanda the governance context is quite different so can you let us know how FFP LA is being implemented in your eyes in Burundi? Yes of course in Burundi well it's quite different to Rwanda they're they're neighboring countries and they're good friends we share the same assets positive points but also the same faults for example we do have one common challenge that is demographic problems and traveling problems on a political level one country is more advanced than another concerning land administration it's true that Rwanda has stood out in the past few years compared to Burundi we are still working in Burundi on this issue and we're trying to really tap into this issue particularly concerning legal tax and joining this in law we're putting a lot of focus into this we're also trying to secure land on a local level and secure it properly local administrations are taking care of this but of course we also want to work on conflict conciliation concerning land security and land administration and management is a very important issue we need to make sure that it's financially viable and to do this we also we need to really tap into a legal system that is clear over the past 10 years we developed a legal framework but there's still work to be done to tap into a framework on this level and continue what we've already been doing in order to centralise the management of land land has been dealt with in several different ways and lots of different decisions have been made our justice system is trying to look into the issue further we now we to put extra effort into trying to qualify this administration and these systems in regard to the law everything needs to be centralised and land needs to be managed from a central perspective so there are still questions that need to be addressed if I may say local governments governments needs to really provide services to help us work in this respect to combine our skills infrastructures must be put in place so that we can have systems and well in terms of expertise in general so that management can be taken care of centrally governance needs to be written into law so that local authorities can serve other types of actors in the domain for example banks when we're talking about resolving conflicts for example but if there are no legal basis for this then it's a problem we need to really put into place operational systems we equally need to apply this when we're speaking about raising awareness for example we need land certificates we need to link up the local level and a more global level in a wide from a wider perspective there are many actors who are involved in this and many exchanges have taken place conversations for example in terms of how feasible it is to put in place a land management system more centralised system we've exchanged with Rwanda to try and understand this more and this gave us a lot of help hope we need a land administration system that is exploitable able to be used and is practicable practical that local actors can use but we also need it to be a system that responds to issues that are central we want to aim for a system that is not far from our neighbour system similar to Rwanda thank you very much thanks very much Remy I think you touched on a whole range of issues there when it comes to somehow getting FFP LA activity happening at that local level and as you've said historically land and the governance of that is a local activity in Burundi but then moving towards and recognising the real value of the administrative system is when you can also provide some information and some benefits to that central level and so you've touched on a whole range of aspects particularly relating to the UN GTIM framework for effective land administration or fallow many of those pathways you are raising there that need to be considered so everything from governance institutions legal issues but also financial aspects awareness raising education and training so really good coverage of those remember everyone if you've got questions and you're they're coming up as as the speakers are speaking we're not taking questions immediately within the first series of questions and I'm asking to the panellists but you can use the Q&A box which is down the bottom of your screen and put a question in there there's already some filling up there and we're definitely going to come back and revisit those ones in the in the final half hour or so of this webinar Christelle I'm going to jump over to you you work with donors and in the Africa region mainly you're often putting in for projects and tenders and so forth how much is this term FFPLA all the concepts behind it how much is it how much demand is there from the donors and at the same time you know a donor project usually needs to have a beneficiary a beneficiary country or agency how much demand is there from the beneficiaries and have you even seen this changing over over time in your role yeah well I think what I see in my daily work is that it's demonetized by many donors I mean the terms of references that that are provided by the donors they use this terminology terminology all over the place this is also why I wanted to mention why I mentioned earlier that we don't need to yeah it doesn't have to become some kind of buzzword yeah like fit for purpose land administration solves all our problems so to say and and what I see in my daily work is that those terms of reference talk a lot about the purposes of land administration like like climate resilience like conflict management yeah full and productive employment all those kind of purposes that where land administration a sustainable and administration perfectly can contribute to but in the end it all starts with complete up-to-date and the reliable data and getting there that takes a lot of time and money this is also what you posted earlier in this webinar so I think it requires a strong leadership from decision makers not only from politicians but also from the chain partners involved in creating that complete and up-to-date land data and in my opinion the timeframe of many tender projects and also the available budgets are often still too limited to really establish a system that provides these data and okay there are some larger tenders in terms of budget and time frame so the multi-annual programs but they well they most of the time until like the development of large IT systems of large titling programs but they do not always cover the whole spectrum of land administration and not the like the framework of land of fit for purpose like the legal part the institutional part and the spatial part and also from the beneficiary side hey you ask me the question is this the same demand there for beneficiaries what I see also in my daily work is that there are still beneficiaries that ask for a full-fledged land administration system if I may say like that and then most of the times in in in terms of IT systems that have many functionalities and so on but the data in itself it's not there so I would rather say I would say start with small systems also IT wise start in a fit for purpose way start small and then yeah increment over time yeah I'm not sure if this has been changed all over the time what I do see and this is well I come back to that later in the case of Benin is that when we started yeah the ambition of the government was to have a fully digitized disaster and and so on and create ambitions and you start working on it and it's yeah we all see see how yeah what it what it takes to get there so the how to say the ambitions well do not change over time but we see that that that fit for purpose land administration is adopted more and more thanks thanks crystal so yeah what we're hearing there is obviously donors on board beneficiaries demanding it although still still issues like scale of IT systems and I think that that question of the IT system we want to like try and come back and revisit that a little bit later because essentially FFPLA when we think about it is not so much about the back end storage of data and the manipulation and the development of the IT system although it is covered in the in the frameworks if you have a look at the documentation around FFPLA it's been something more focused on getting that scaled data collection in the field but it's a really good point you raise crystal if you've got all the data in the world but no capacity or or fit for purpose systems IT systems in the background then we see countries running into problems there where the maintenance and sustainability of those systems is comes under question yeah sure jump jump on the top of that because what I meant meant to say is that that's they ask the full-fledged IT system but the data in it that lacks so that is that is also a problem because you can have a full-fledged system but if there is no data in it you can still wonder how yeah do we still is that fit for purpose do we do you then meet the purpose of land administration yeah no good questions and thanks for putting those on the table I think we're going to have more discussion around that let's let's let's go again back to Israel I think I first heard of you Israel maybe only a year ago when you you came under the scene NFIG and and revealed this question this survey or study you've been conducting on African countries and you you're obviously African and so you were running a study in on the continent going and doing a lot of work in terms of developing that but also getting it filled in you've been running that over a number of years so FFPLA applied in in African countries by Africans and we can be honest on that you know the technique the philosophy did was developed for or created for some of the issues and challenges happening in more developing context although you know the principles and philosophies are pretty much those that we find in any surveying and education thinking and in educational programs fundamentally but tell us what you've been finding in in that study because I know it's ongoing what what have you found how is it being perceived and what's the future of give us give us your spin thank you so much Rohan yeah you're correct myself and a couple of friends in Africa did a survey in the year 2022 it was after Wisdom workshop of the volunteer community Soviet program and then the study did meet some significant or reviews from seven confindence one of such is stats there is a fact that they are ineffective and unsustainable approaches to the land I don't show in African countries I mean it was obvious now the the survey was done such that Soviets the public everybody who wanted to feel the questionnaire actually responded to the survey and it's it's interesting that the result is coming from the general public and even the professionals that's indeed there there is an acceptance of the fact that they are ineffective and unsustainable approaches to land and destruction in many African countries and then our world is existing systems capture the various types of rights and the population is quite weak and it and this calls for a system that is more fits for the purpose of recording the rights and ensuring that the security of people's tenure is I've always loved to ask a question that why should we have approaches that are not fit for purpose in the first place because I assume and I always imagine that we should be able to put a round peg in the round hole so when there are problems like this I expect that we should be able to have the appropriate solution that addresses such problems and that is what the fit for purpose approach tends to do also from that survey that was conducted at that time the responses obtained also showed that the fit for purpose approaches to land administration has positively impacted land administration in the African continents I mean a majority of those who responded to that survey I would not want to maybe start reading out statistics but then I think the the the topic of that survey of the paper written from it's an FIG publication is is an analysis of fit for purpose land demarcation practices in Africa are the emergence of the fit for I think a good around that I could paste it in the chat box before the end of the webinar but I would just like to say that it's built up on the principles of fit for purpose approaches I mean the survey used the principles to analyze how land is being administered in various countries in Africa and we did have responses from Nigeria of course where I live myself from Ghana from South Africa from Uganda from Rwanda from a lot of countries across Africa and then it reveals some of these things it also shows that the application of FFPL approach in African countries varies according to different levels different levels of technical of technological resources and then capacity different levels of of of adoption and and different levels in so many space look at it from any angle it's not on a particular definition it's not as if there is something coming and they deserve to accept it the way it is it's like when it gets to this country they redefine it in their home way and which is one thing I so much like especially when the first principle of the fit for purpose approaches flexibility so it means that when it comes to your country you are being able to adapt and then adopt what works best for that society so also I'd like to say that the findings suggest that there is need for more research and investments to develop effective sustainable land additional systems in Africa I want to say investment I'm talking of of course finance is one but then more importantly maybe to look to identify the gaps because this old thing is not a it's not a global practice that there is a a particular solution that solves the problem it is what every local context we need to now look at what happens in their own environment and then design and approach that solves that problem so I know again I'm half-time uh Rohan so I'd like to stop at this point thank you so no thanks israelan and I'm very impressed as a young academic you're both plugging your own paper which is a good paper so please put it in the in the box and so getting your getting your own paper out there is a very good thing young academics do and also asking for research funding in the area you're working on the two box tick there very good um but more you know and that is important but the yeah importantly there I think your surveys is rather interesting in that you know it's it's revealing a very positive appreciation of FFPLA which you've already mentioned earlier but it wasn't that long ago that you could sit within a room of surveyors even at an international conference but maybe particularly more the local conference and have you know 90 percent opposed to some of the aspects of of an FFPLA type implementation so it shows there has been a bit of a seismic shift in thinking about FFPLA as not really a threat to the profession but perhaps an opportunity for the profession to do more work and and and better work and and be more responsive to society's needs okay let's go back to uh packed vertigo um you know Indonesia's now got a bit of a track record on uh its application of FFPLA and and it's interesting to watch from afar in Indonesia is the way uh and you've mentioned it a bit already uh the FFPLA approach has has been changed and evolving over time so can you give us a little bit of information on what those changes are and and why the approach has been changing okay so if i divide the Indonesian registration is the first 55 years we call it sporadic registration and since 2015 until 2022 it's the FFP but we call it it's the mass land registration period uh since this year uh we changed it to systematic complete land registration period so at the beginning uh at the beginning of this project 2015 as i said it is it is not really systematic complete land registration it's only people driven mass land registration so before uh the land owner come to our office and then they pay for the survey pay for the registration to get the title uh once the project begin uh the government pay for all of those things the government pay for the surveys the government pay for the uh land registration so it's quite successful people coming and then we managed to have a three five million per year until eight million per years but last year we realized that not all people actually not all the land owner comes forward okay so uh we changed our our approach for the participatory mapping uh before the land owner participate uh then we realized that we need to survey all of those parcel so for the participatory perspective we changed not only the land owners can participate but also the villagers the village official village head uh they helped us they assisted us to show them the boundaries to show them this one uh owned by whom and something like that so uh so that since this year we managed to to survey all the parcel there is no single hole there is no single square centimeters left behind starting this year because you know uh uh in our previous mass land registration we forgot to do what do you call it to integrate between our legacy data with the new incoming data so in our cadastral there will be gap overlap because it was it was done in different method in different time uh different projection different uh what do you call it different reference something like that so uh starting this year uh starting this year uh we may we are what we call it integrated systematic complete land registration uh what we're doing now uh before we do we have a satellite imagery satellite imagery the the first five years of the project now uh you every mapping is become cheaper in Indonesia so starting this year we use ufv mapping ufv mapping in Indonesia and then uh ufv mapping and we don't only ask the people uh we are we also ask the villager so every single parcel are surveyed and mapping uh starting this this year uh if there so I also answer the qn a question for Fatimea about about how do we deal with the legacy data with the registered parcel so what we're doing is we're updating updating the registered parcel also uh uh our budget is a quarter of the new incoming so if I pay 100 for the uh incoming parcel new incoming parcel I pay 25 percent for updating the the registered parcel the save the orientation and also the scale everything so uh it's quite challenging because in Indonesia uh certificate of title is sacred yeah uh you cannot change the area if the area is already mentioned 107 square meters you after the updating it changed probably more probably less uh yeah it's it's quite challenging to tell our people to tell our staff and also to tell the the owners yeah uh that uh it doesn't really matter it's just a calculation but uh we also updating the since this year we also updating the the registered parcel also and uh why are we doing ufv map uh before we're doing the we have uh satellite imagery as a as a base now we're doing ufv map with the accuracy uh 0.5 meters now and resolution uh 15 centimeters uh we put the budget on it but also we have a collaboration with the with the startup with the community in Indonesia there is a new startup yeah like a youtube but it's youtube for drone so people who're doing drone for five hectares seven hectares they upload and on those uh the name is Mapa ID and I collaborate with them and I get more than one million hectares of drone three three in Indonesia and we put our budget for for the rest of the area so since this year the change is we using the photo map we using uh our own budget our what bank budget and also the community the community result of the not on not only the parcel but also the the photo map itself so before our accuracy stated in our regulation is 0.3 but now our our our photo map is around 0.5 meters accuracy but that's okay that's the gradually yeah improve the accuracy in Indonesia okay thank you thanks uh Park Virgo you're a lot a lot in your statements just there um but I think particularly the embracing of uh innovation and and a sort of problem solving or opportunity taking mentality with within the agency allows you to move pretty swiftly and pretty quickly onto opportunities like UAV which really wasn't a viable or sort of matured option up until you know five five or so years ago and now you're you're using that at scale and not only your own in-house imagery capture but you know civilian imagery capture because why you know we can assess the quality and we can make use of it so as a halfway approach why not make use of it so really some good lessons there in terms of having any culture of innovation within the organization let's go back to uh Park Virgo uh sorry I want to thank Park Virgo and go to uh Remy um with Burundi as you've already mentioned being more more decentralized can you give us a little bit more on how uh the local committee I mean you talked about sort of the big picture before about needing to marry up the local and the and the central but can you drill down a bit more for us in terms of how local committees are supporting the FFPLA process to give us that real I guess you know that real um grassroots feel as to how how are you getting it done on the ground at that local level yes it's true in Burundi yes it's really decentralized compared to the national level and local level there are provinces there's the country there are smaller communities and even lower level there are the hills there are the the small villages it's really decentralized the heads um on a very local level there are um there are councillors in order to manage the local levels there are committees that help us a lot they try and referee everything that's going on they try and manage what's happening with the land and how neighbors relate to each other yes they are committees and these are the ones that are most active um in working with us we also have a council um to handle any conflicts and we have a mediation council as well but we work a lot well we like work more and more with committees um other types of committees that don't have specific roles um outlined outlined in terms of land administration but we're concentrating on three things um first of all the committees that have administration jobs and tasks they try and handle the local committee handle local communities they help local communities to manage their land we also have recognition committees that have a certain amount of knowledge of our communities and help us they help us to decrypt the local land code and they help us to be more active in our land registration they're always by our side to try and uh define the limits and define the borders of what we're doing between neighbors there's also a council that tries to mediate any conflicts that occur between private individuals and private partners in terms of our land usage they help us a lot they make sure that our methods are really at the service of our committees they help the other two committees as well but these are the three types of bodies that help us a lot in our land administration and in implementing it okay uh thank thanks remy um forgiving us that pretty detailed inside there on the use of these three different but interrelated committees to help solve those issues FFP application I guess at that that local level I'm just a bit conscious of time so I want to still go around for one more one more round of questions but there is now quite a lot of open questions in the Q&A panelists so if you're not speaking panelists and if you could because some of the questions are quite specific and targeted at some of what you've said so if you do if you could just jump onto the Q&A while we go through the next round of questions um and if there's any directly attributed to you that you feel comfortable to answer and just by typing uh that that'd be great so that's the Q&A box down the bottom screen okay crystal going back to you again uh we we talked about your role we haven't really spoken specifically um in in so much detail about Ben in it's more of a recent case of FFP LA adoption um a bit cautious on how I ask the question because um it's I don't want to say the country showed uh uh resistance but um can you sort of explain to us the the approach for getting acceptance and then um rolling out FFP LA in Benin? Yes of course yeah because well resistance to the FFP approach I cannot really say that is that is the case as you mentioned but yeah the of course the way to get there the way to get the to meet the objectives of the the the Beninist government that is of course well a long path and full with hurdles and and challenges so to say so um yeah and that of course takes a lot of time and discussion and this is the process where we are in uh currently in so key to speeding up the land administration process in Benin is uh actually it's it's to establish a lighter form so uh of of registration so to say and um yeah it is we do it with not establishing an ownership as an absolute right but to use other verification methods and establish a presumed ownership uh during the period of data collection and in a later stage uh after the period of data collection it can be converted into a higher level of vehicle certainty uh for example um yeah the land title as is prescribed in the land law and um well in contrast to the property rights documented by a land title this presumed ownership that we now establish it's not absolute and it can be disputed and yeah well actually we can say that it is applicable until a legal procedure decides otherwise and and this um well this possibility for correction in the later stage provides space for a faster and cheaper and less formal approach uh during the phase of data collection and this again it this aligns better with political goal of achieving a land registration system that covers the entire country in a relatively short time frame um so the possibility to register this kind of presumed ownership this was already uh regulated by law in 2013 uh but it was only valid during a transition period of 10 years and yeah as we are now 10 years later this law is not applicable anymore as since july this year and the challenge is now to re-establish the legal regulation so to say to make maintenance of this presumed ownership possible again by law um so at this moment we are we prepare the legal degrees and they are being composed and now for endorsement at the cabinet um and yeah I think this is my view if I may say like that I think this really must be arranged arranged before further scaling up uh if not if we continue with data collection uh then we will create a database with unreliable data and this well this was absolutely go against the debaniness objectives to bring this economic prosperity and to prevent land conflicts so yeah actually and I'm taking into account the time uh the the limited time we have for this webinar I think that is also my general message that I want to repeat do not scale up and do not invest in scaling up until the maintenance uh is well established and I'm talking about the maintenance of of of a land administration system itself but absolutely but more and even better the data in it okay thanks Christelle I think your points pretty well made and clear and it's um yeah I think it's a good one let's I'm conscious of time too but I want to quickly go through one last round of questions as I said but if I could ask the panelists to be as brief as possible so we can get through as many of the um questions as possible and I can see already some have started to be answered with it which is excellent so last round of questions Israel start with you what do you see as the remaining barriers to the use of FFPLA in the sub-Saharan African countries you've been looking at in your study thank you so much Rohan according to that study in 2022 uh hesitancy within the surveying community the legal profession and the general community was one of the things that was identified owing to a lack of sufficient advocacy and awareness and involvement of stakeholders now the prime focus was on the surveying communities because uh so we just need to adapt to change and then leverage available technology and the the quest for perceived accuracy is a middle challenge also for the FFPLA nutrition approach so both from the Soviets and organizations we had the the hesitancy was obvious because uh you prepared some documents and then it's not the regular documents they are familiar within the country and then even the organizations will say they don't accept that because it's not it's because of a plan that is accepted in certain environments so these are certain hesitancies that we identified uh aside this particular one I think a few things maybe we have some solutions that could help us reduce threat hesitancies which is to advocate more and then to elect the local context I mean let the the approach be adapted and then adopted by the local concept uh context rather so that the problem can be uh holistically solved that's does what I'm going to like to end it up then uh I have a few more things here that I would like love to see the cut of time I'll just outline let's say we have capacity building we have adequate training and possibly uh including the concept into the curriculum of students such that students now understand that the land attrition approach needs to be fit for purpose even from the institution and then lastly I would like to emphasize on establishing legal and institutional frameworks to back up the uh technology enabled special environment it's obvious that the special aspect the special framework is well advanced but then the institution and the lega that pertains that really talks talks about the people and what happens in a local context is actually lagging behind and is dragging the foot of the implementation of the FFPL approach in sub-Saharan Africa thank you so much for running everyone. Thanks Israel Virgo over to you you've already told us about the most recent innovations happening in Indonesia around UAVs and essentially crowdsourced imagery and and so forth what what's on the horizon from in your view in your position for the coming years with regards to FFPL in Indonesia. Thanks Rohan as we know uh you know the methodology the techniques in in surveying and mapping actually become cheaper and cheaper uh become affordable uh and affordable so uh next year as 2024 we started to put the building in our cadastral before right now currently our cadastral is only the plot the parcels only the polygon so we will be using the artificial intelligent techniques uh using the UAV so probably starting this year next year 2024 we will put our the building footprint uh in our in our FFPL in our cadastral map and uh don't talk about the accuracy of the footprint as long as we have the footprint of the building it's okay that's our policy for the next years and then we also publish our our cadastral map in our website so you can also take a look at our website it's it's here probably uh here bumi.atrbpn.guin.id it's not perfect yet uh in some area there's still be uh overlapping and gap between the new registered parcel and the legacy data but in certain area it's already complete and systematic so you can see our 107 million parcel in in this website uh bumi.atrbpn.guin.id and on this website only because starting this year we survey all the parcel but not all the people get the certificate of title because probably the owner was not there the owner reluctant to have the title because if you have a title you have to pay the tax something like that and if you transfer some yeah some people few people few people in Indonesia reluctant reluctant to have the title but our policy starting this year we survey all the parcel so also in this in this website if they change their mind probably next year or two years they can come forward and make the the polygon green make the green make the meaning they approve of their parcel so they can make approval later so not all the parcel survey has been approved so they can approve it later using this website and then starting next year also uh probably our disaster map will be will be using a terrain uh so it will be in a 3d so we will be prepared for the for the incoming incoming years that two-thirds of the people also in Indonesia will live in the city so we will we will be moving also to the to the 3d disaster once uh all the parcel in Indonesia has been registered has been surveyed and has been mapped and lastly uh we will also shifting our our organization now probably until the next five to two years we are organization that collect the data from the people later on we'll be shifting to the data manager the data manager and information about the land spatial unit in Indonesia not just 2d but also 3d so the people can give us feedback the people can approve or disapprove and uh using that using that technology we will do our ffp uh later on okay thank you thanks uh thanks park for ago so fun the fun never stops in Indonesia and with atr bpn it seems so great to hear those innovations uh remi one last one for you um and i'll get you to narrow in on you know what do you see as the next steps for ffpla in barundi what are what are you hopeful about what what do you see as the positives on the horizon in in that particular country that one was for you remi i think i used to with us just uh then stand and show it yeah you're there go go concerning barundi and land as administration we clearly have willingness on a political level and we're doing a lot of work with the uh government administration to try and advance rights and satisfy to certify these rights in terms of land ownership there are also opportunities with organizations that are kicking into gear in terms of land administration populations and communities are also very open and reacting with great enthusiasm on a community level to try and secure their land rights and obtain uh land certificates we do have certain challenges these challenges are linked to the lack of legal texts concrete legal texts we also have challenges linked to the institutional frameworks and management framework frameworks that are currently being negotiated and they're all at different stages there are further challenges as well linked to conflicts concerning our territories and private territories private lands for example you also there's also a certain challenge linked to many types of land that have economic problems they're not necessarily exploitable they're able to be used but the land management system is currently sounding the alarm in terms of this there are different levels of success and different challenges that barundi is faced with but we're fighting for all of this together thank you very much remi now i do have one last question for you christelle but i'm as as a good friend i shouldn't say we're good friends in the context of a panel session i think i think you made your your strongest point in the and the point you wanted to make in the last in the in the last round is there anything you want to add on to that before i just jump to two participants that i can see online that it'd be good to get a word in before we uh before we wrap up the session no well as you as you if i can repeat i can repeat it of course but i think the message was clear i can tell you so much more and i can tell the audience so much more about the projects in benin uh but uh yeah regarding the time maybe we can certainly encourage them to take a look at the cadastra website and all the news about the benin project and i know there's been academic papers around that they cover some of the important points i shared a link to an article that we recently published in the gim international yeah exactly so yeah no thanks thanks christelle so i thanks to all the panelists and i would just you know there's obviously we've had four any four questions come in and thank you so much for the engagement of all the question aren't question is there and i can see our panelists have been busy providing answers and they've got through almost half of those so please do keep going panelists if you can see specific ones relating to you some of them are very you know to be unpacked and could we could spend a whole another webinar on them and maybe that may form part of the scaling a responsible scaling series that's going on here at with land portal but i did um you know we've got five minutes left and i can see um we've got two panel not panelists but participants that i hope are on standby to give us their their views and their different roles first one is uh simon peter are you are you there simon i don't know i hope you can hear me yeah i can it's good to good to hear from you and again can you give us a little bit of uh a quick take on on your your position currently and how it interacts with the ff pl a concepts and your your general views on that that'd be great thanks rohan and uh thanks for this interesting uh discussion um so so so first of all i want to emphasize that fit for purpose land administration is a paradigm shift from the conventional or the traditional way of um doing land administration or land management um to this new way of you know finding uh a first a way to do it and provide tenor and that um precisely because of this it's not always um a smooth transition so there are a lot of things involved to have this um shift um so so for from our experience in yuganda one of the key consideration is um to make sure that the government um is in the lead or you know takes the leadership and this is not always given um of course there are countries like indonesia the case we just had and nepal um where the government quickly um you know accepts the fit for purpose land administration in yuganda that was not the case so um one of the things we did was uh you know the SOC systems um uh change model uh so where you um pick an area and uh together of course with the government and implement the fit for purpose and show them how this will lead to quicker and better results and so um using this approach we have been able to progressively uh show the government uh what's possible with it uh with the fit for purpose land administration and um with this they have now developed um the national strategy on how to implement the fit for purpose land administration the remaining challenge in yuganda with fit for purpose land administration is um the resource mobilization uh so so the land sector is not priority in the overall um in the in the overall resource allocation of the country um so so so so so the the resources that are needed to be able to scale up fit for purpose and provide tenure security um within the next 10 years as their strategy says have not yet been found so one of the things we are doing now is also look at um um developing a business model uh because as we know uh land administration um provides um uh revenue uh for the government so so the government um we are trying to advocate uh together with our partners in the ministry of lands to the wider government um making a case that fit for purpose can actually result into increase increase in revenue and therefore making a case for the initial investment that is needed for the fit for purpose to be funded and implemented at national scale the second point I wanted to make Rohan um is to emphasize uh the importance of um of gender in in in both the conceptualization of fit for purpose land administration and the implementation of it so so I agree with um I think one of the speakers was emphasizing that more often we focus on the on the spatial framework and um sometimes um ignore the social dynamics the you know the the cultural context and other important governance elements um as well um also um you know fit for purpose land administration is often implemented in the context where there are certain governance challenges I mean the good example is corruption so if you don't put in place safeguards um it's possible that you know within the scaling up of fit for purpose and its implementation you could actually um scale up some of those um you know uh negative aspects of of uh of land or land administration so I think it is really important to uh integrate um these governance issues uh in the design of what's fit for purpose but also involve all key stakeholders uh one of the other challenge in the case of Uganda was the professionals so the land surveyors and and and and and and and it's really critical to make sure that all stakeholders are on board um if fit for purpose uh land administration is to be scaled up so one of the things we have been doing is the advocacy with the professionals um because fit for purpose land administration what it does it changes the role of of the of some of the professionals so we have been uh advocating and explaining um what is their new role uh within the fit for purpose um land administration and and I think that that is uh also helping a lot so because of a lack of time I'll stop here for now and no great great thanks Simon Peter I think you've raised some issues that probably we didn't highlight enough but maybe they'll I'll come up in other webinars around around gender and the specific changing role of the of the of the surveyor and the professionals involved in land administration look uh we are completely out of time so big apologies to all those questions that didn't get answered we've had excellent engagement in the session excellent attendance um but thank you for posting all those questions um as I said many of them we've answered but we haven't got quite through them all and haven't been able to get to them in the in in the forum here with our speakers but I do as we wrap up want to say a big thank you to our panelists Christelle Virgo Remy and Israel you've been brilliant thank you for sharing your insights uh for your up from your own work but putting that on the on the global stage I guess and showing um the relevance of your work in that regard thanks also to all our attendees and those of us questions for joining us here today we really do appreciate your participation and the engagement and we look forward to seeing you next time in uh one of our land portal um webinars so stay tuned as always to the emails and to the website uh we'd also like you to take the survey we want to know how you like the webinar what worked what didn't we're always looking to improve so you can take that by clicking the link which I believe Neil has already posted online in the chat and with that I would just like to sign off I wish you all a good morning or good afternoon or good evening and we'll see you next time uh bye for now bye