 So now it's our good fortune to enjoy turning the mic on Mr. Tapper and to watch him be interviewed by our own Mark Uptegrove. Please welcome him to the stage. Welcome back. Yeah, it's good to be here. So for many of you you've you've seen Jake here before he came here in 2018 to talk about his first work of fiction the Hellfire Club And so we're delighted to have you back now a whole lot has happened since 2018 Well, there was a there was a second book in between the first book and the third book But I there was no book tour because there was a mass global pandemic. I don't know if you remember Anyway, so among the many things that have happened including your second book. There was an insurrection also. I don't know Sorry, go ahead. Oh Donald Trump is no longer president Don't Well, well for now it depends who you ask There are those won the Super Bowl, right? That is true That was very exciting but that that had happened But when we I was here last time that happened in February 2018 anyway, that's fair enough. You're right. Absolutely, right? Yeah, but but but big things many things have happened in the world They were in the Super Bowl again, and they did not we don't have to talk about that But this is not the crowd for that sorry But your two books continue the story of the couple that you came here to talk about in in 2018 Charlie and Margaret Martyr first book Hellfire Club I mentioned introduces these characters Charlie Martyr is a is a World War two hero he is a Columbia professor and Gets picked to to fill a vacant seat in Congress and goes to McCarthy era Washington with his zoologist wife Margaret You continue their story and your second book in early 1960s Washington during the Kennedy administration and your latest book all the demons are here follows their story into 1977 and is told from the perspective of their children I Can Lucy their adult children. Yeah, adult children and it's about I can Lucy all of the books are really about America and all the books are really about politics and culture today as Seen through the 50s or the 60s or the 70s so I can Lucy our 20 and 22 and this latest book takes place in 1977 I K is He is disillusioned America and in 1977 is probably some of the people here remember Post Watergate post Vietnam War the nation was very disillusioned. They didn't know who they could believe They didn't know who he could do who they could trust Ike is that Ike is an AWOL Marine. He's been involved in a in a heart and operation abroad that has gone awry He's he's left Bethesda Naval Hospital and he is now in Montana working on the pit crew of Legendary stuntman evil Knievel And his sister Lucy is 22 and she is an aspiring journalist. She wants to be the next Woodward or Bernstein She's working for the Washington Star and she gets wooed away from the Washington Star by this Charming dashing British family that has come to start a new tabloid in Washington, DC The Washington Sentinel this family the lion family is very directly based on the Murdoch's And is very directly about how in 1977 That's the year that tabloid journalism really exploded in the United States in New York at the time 1977 that was the summer of Sam that was the son of Sam serial killer and that's when the New York Times and I'm sorry the New York Post and the New York Daily News really increased circulation and newsstand sales by scaring the bejesus out of New Yorkers with this, you know by telling the story of this of the serial killer and in all the demons are here The lion family wants Lucy to cover a serial killer in DC and do the same for their newspaper As the Murdochs are doing for the New York Post with the son of Sam. So the two stories are about well Ike story is about evil Knievel and The people who follow evil Knievel and that's a that's a story about evil Knievel running for president Which he actually did in 1972 kind of like a stunt campaign, but in my in the book I have him launching More of a serious campaign and leading a bunch of followers across the country people who have grievances and issues with the government and In the end that storyline is about what's about the suspension of it's about the tension of what are they going to do? when they get to the government when they get to Washington and it's about followers following a demagogue and the other story is about the danger of tabloid journalism and What it can do when you put? Sensationalism ahead of facts So I in all these books I try to talk about things going on today Through the perspective of things that went on in the past so You've done one of the interesting things about your your works of fiction is they have extensive end notes They do have extensive end notes, and I do that because I'm the kind of person that when I watch a Movie based on a real story. I then spend the next two hours on Google Trying to figure out what's real. What's not real one of my favorite websites is Holly his history versus Hollywood Where they do a lot of that work for you? And it really honestly ruins a lot of movies for you Like if you don't want to know what's real and what's not real about Rudy, I won't ruin it for you But suffice it to say The fictional version is a lot more exciting But yeah, I'm the kind of person that wants to know and one of the fun things for me is how many people say I thought you made that up and Actually, that's real and I'm like, yeah, I found that and that was actually real so one of the things that I found fascinating from the first book which also had extensive end notes the Hellfire Club is that Joe McCarthy when he was drinking would eat an entire stick of butter Yeah, and and I true right and I found that out through your end notes. Yeah, I read this amazing book by Jack Anderson the legendary muckraker Jack Anderson wrote a great biography of McCarthy in 1952 And it had all these amazing details This is two years before McCarthy was censured two years before Murrow went after him, etc And it had this amazing detail that he would eat a stick of butter while he drank which he often did and It was just so I mean who does that? It was such a great detail. So what apologies if any of you do that What details did you find particularly revelatory as you were researching the times and the people in All the demons are here. I mean, I think the thing that was the most interesting to me about well, I mean about evil evil was just such a fascinating character his His charm completely. I this is the first of the three books. This is the first era that I was alive for I was eight in 1977 So I don't remember most of this. I remember Elvis dying and I remember the energy crisis, but I don't remember Studio 54. I don't remember I do remember Elvis dying like I said, I don't remember the son of Sam I assume my parents turned off the news when I came in the room or whatever. I don't know exactly but but Evil can evil. I remember my friends that had the lunchbox the evil can evil lunchbox and I remember my friends had the wind-up motorcycle but I His charm completely escaped me Even as a as a five six seven year old I was watching I guess PBS while my friends were watching ABC wide world of sports and so I never saw that stuff, but a friend of mine said you really You got if you're writing about the 70s, you need to you need to learn about evil can evil He's and he was right because he is this quintessentially American character Showman PT Barnum there is you know, there is a Trump-esque quality to him in the sense that he is able to To just play with the media and get them to cover everything he does and shoot from the hip I don't even mean it in a pejorative way He's just but he is one of these these quintessentially American characters that is able to to get attention and get a following and He would he had a cane That you he would unscrew the handle and then he would pour wild turkey From the cane that was a real thing he had But the more I read about him the more it made sense that his life rights which Hollywood is you know Different actors have had his life rights for years and nobody has made the evil can evil movie And the more I read about him or watch documentaries about him the more I understood why which is he's just an awful person just a horrible horrible guy horrible guy and There's no third act Ark like he doesn't become a different guy at the end of his life Horrible guy becomes famous worse guy Less famous even worse guy dies So it makes sense why they couldn't make a movie out of them But he's great for like you know a foil for my characters to play off of so that I guess but the fact that all this stuff happened in 1977 Was the weirdest thing for me Jimmy Carter's inaugurated Star Wars Saturday Night Fever studio 54 opens Evil Caneval literally jumps sharks Fonds eight months later jump sharks Some summer of Sam rise of tabloid journalism New York City blackout. I mean just all of these Elvis died Elvis dies Just one after the other after the other all in this one year Was just really really bizarre before we get off the subject of evil can evil You reminded me in the book that he went to jail talk about that 1977 is the year that evil can evils career truly Net it never he never it never really recovers Because he had a PR guy so his He ends up in 1974. He's on the cover of Sports Illustrated, which is ridiculous because he was not an athlete You know he jumped motorcycles over buses, but that's not athletics but anyway 1974 he was on the cover of Sports Illustrated and Rolling Stone for Trying to jump over Snake River Canyon in Idaho And for those of you who remember It wasn't even on a motorcycle. It was like in like a rocket ship from like wrote Roadrunner Wiley Coyote cartoons like act like Acme made it And it didn't make it across like he almost died. It was just ridiculous and So The PR guy he had for that was this guy named Shelly Saltman and Shelly Saltman was recording everything with like a tape recorder and He wrote a book About evil can evil and it came out in 1977 that's all that also happened and And it was it was his words and you know was it was it was evil can evil bragging about his extra curricular activities and such and Antisemitism and you know whatever everything that made evil can evil a horrible person and Evil can evil flew to Los Angeles and with a some thug found Shelly Saltman on some Hollywood lot and with a baseball bat You know beat beat beat the living tar out of them and then he went to jail That was pretty much the end of evil can evil's career It's remarkable. Yeah, I mean yeah, I mean and that's Toward the end of the book, but but yeah spoiler alert. Yeah, it doesn't really it doesn't really spoil the book but but it's just weird Because People don't even people don't even remember that part of the story really. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right I was reminded of it when I was reading the book. I had totally forgotten that so you had written three Works of nonfiction before you wrote the Hellfire Club Yeah, I wrote a Early in my career I wrote a quick by quicky biography of Jesse Ventura right after he was elected governor I wrote a book about the Florida recount right after that in 2001 And then I wrote a book about Afghanistan called the outpost that came out in 2012 that they made into a movie There was supposed to debut at South by Southwest in March 2020 your way ahead of me Yeah, anyway, and then so people saw it on pay-per-view at home why fiction what was the impetus for you taking up the pen to write I'd always want I had always been interested in fiction I wanted to be a cartoonist when I was a kid and then in college and I wrote a novel in my 20s that never got published, but it got me an agent and You know, I'm a fan of fiction it allows you to Explore different parts of your brain than nonfiction does It's completely different It's it's it's more challenging in a lot of ways than than nonfiction is nonfiction's more work in terms of interviews and fact-checking and all that But fiction is more difficult Because you have to you have to make it all up. You have to put the pieces together so It's and also just it was it was it's a more of an escape for me from the world of nonfiction that I deal in day-in day-out that is Generally Can be difficult on I don't want to complain. I have a great job, but like, you know, especially covering during COVID for example It was fun to take an hour and spend it with the rat pack For the second book that was the second book takes place in DC in Los Angeles with Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin and whatever so that was fun to like, you know, my kids are learning remotely and And I'm covering You know, 50,000 people are now dead. It's you know, whatever and like, okay Hold on and I take an hour and I'm drinking wine with Frank Sinatra. Okay now I'm back in the real world That was a nice hour. You know what I mean? What was the impetus of these characters? Charlie and Margaret I Wanted to have it them be a couple because I feel like I read a lot of books about You know the single man detective who you know, like the James Bond type and I love those books I read them. I enjoy them, but I'm a happily married guy And I feel like I like the Nick and Nora books the thin man books also and those movies and I thought it'd be fun to have like a couple that are in love and it's not just about like Sleeping with somebody to get a clue or whatever like to have them be a unit and Have their marriage also be like a character and have the woman also be you know Not just an appendage of her of her husband, but have her be a strong if not stronger character than him and So for that reason, I you know, I always make sure that I have strong woman editors checking out the book and you know because You know, I want to write books for 2023 not 1952 and and actually I got criticized for my for the Hellfire Club the Washington Post reviewer Criticized Charlie they described him as like a a pink Hat wearing this is you know right after the woman's March. They thought he was too sensitive Kind of character, but so I don't know if I thought the thought that but but I did think I wanted the characters to be If not, I don't think they were too enlightened But I wanted them to be in love and I wanted them to be equal and I thought that that was important And because I thought it was different and also I thought it would be a challenge And so I did that for the first book and then I did that for the second book It's not by the way that it's that they're perfectly like one of the one of the two Almost cheats on the other in the first book and then the other one almost cheats on the other in the second book They don't so don't worry Neither of them cheats, but but you know they're they're tempted And then then the next temptation not the temptation sorry the next challenge was in this book Instead of writing in third person I wrote in first person and I alternated I had Lucy tell Lucy writes one chapter then Ike writes one chapter and I go back And forth and so the challenge was and this was just me seeing if I could do it as a writer Trying to write as one character trying to write as one character and can I convincingly write as a 20 year old Marine and then in the next chapter right as a 22 year old woman journalist and I have editors and I like make sure that like people are helping me do this And I have a woman editor who's very good and like helped me with Lucy to make sure Lucy sounds like a You know she came to one time she inserted some claws about cute boots, which is a clause that has never you know Come out of my mouth cute boots In the same way that I hired this one guy Mark Gardner who is a motorcycle expert helped me write the motorcycle sections for Ike because I have literally never driven a motorcycle in my life, but Ike is an expert motorcyclist and there are many scenes in the book that require That you need to believe that Ike knows a lot about motorcycles you don't have to know anything about motorcycles, but you need to believe Ike does and I didn't want to be spend the next five years getting angry emails From motorcyclists, which believe me that happens So I hired this guy so in the same way like Motorcycle expertise cute boots, you know, whatever I hire. I hire editors to help me the saga goes from as I mentioned McCarthy era 1950s Kennedy era 1960s the ominous summer of 1977 can we assume we'll see a sequel in the Reagan 80s. I I want to do one in the 80s I think I don't know if that's gonna be next. I do miss nonfiction. There are a couple ideas I have for books That have to do with the military nonfiction books The outpost is still the book that I get the most reaction to and there are a couple Stories that are really interesting that I've heard about that I might want to do One of which has to do with this really interesting story. I heard about these prosecutors that It's you kind of tell the story. It's just So it starts on a an Italian yacht an Italian cruise ship in 2011 during the Arab Spring It's the Arab Spring so all these Refugees are fleeing Libya and Tunisia and all the southern Italian islands are just being swamped with refugees So Berlusconi is commandeering cruise ships and then one of these cruise ships one time Taking migrants from Lampedusa Island, which is just the southernmost island is this Italian You know Green Beret and this migrant comes up to him this five foot African guy and Says can I have some water and give some water and he notices that the five foot guy Has like some bullet wounds on him and he asks him how he got them And it comes out that the guys the guys eventually he's like well, I got them fighting in Afghanistan Long story short. He says well, I'm you know, I'm in al-Qaeda. I don't really belong with the riff-raff here with the migrants I'm a senior member of al-Qaeda Eventually they take him to another room. They start interrogating him. He starts getting mad Eventually he starts freaking out. They sedate him. They take him back to the mainland and Then they call the Americans and they say this guy says his name is such and such And he's in al-Qaeda Do you want him because we can only hold him for 30 days? He attacked one of our guards, but that's all we can do the Americans know the name They fly to Italy. They confirm it's him and now they have a clock ticking because they only have a limited amount of time to prove That he is who he says he is that he killed Americans in this battle in Afghanistan and to be able to prove it in a court of law so that they can convict him And send him to a jail in America And it's just this race against the clock Where they have to get at fight figure out which battle it was get evidence And it's just this fascinating story of like finding a Koran that the soldiers Stole from a battlefield getting a taking it to Quantico and this woman with blue hair It's a fingerprint and just really interesting stuff. The guy is in a super max It's all ends happy, but but it's just this really interesting tale of sleuthing And also the story of the the soldiers that that he killed and the family's finally getting justice Which never happens that somebody who kills soldiers on a battlefield in Afghanistan ends up in a super max I mean that never happens So anyway, that's just like one story that I heard that I just thought was really interesting and a very sobering one And let me share some I'm gonna pivot to your day job Jake and share some sobering Poll numbers from a poll that Gallup did last year relating to Americans faith in news media which reveals that 34% of Americans have a great deal or a fair amount of confidence in news media The lowest in history in the poll the history of the poll with the exception of 2016 were it cratered and then went back up in The same poll 38% say they have no trust in news media It's the first time that that number has exceeded those who have at least some trust in news media Let me shed further light on it 70% of Republicans have no trust in media 14% of Democrats have no trust meter. So there's great disparity between the parties How do we make sense of those? very sobering statistics It's not complicated. I mean Donald Trump The entire not the entire a lot of the Republican Party and the entire right-wing ecosystem Has been saying since 2015 You can't trust the news media. It's all fake news That's I mean if you turn on Fox or click on Breitbart or to turn or turn on You know whatever Donald Trump is saying right now, it's just non-stop. You can't trust The media you can't trust the media you can't trust the media It doesn't now if we say something if I say something that they like They will repeat it But I mean that that's the no do they do that because they actually think That we're not telling the truth. No They Fox does it because it's a business decision They are trying to discredit us so people watch only and trust only them and The and I mean Donald Trump told Leslie stall She said to him. Why do you do that? Why do you say that? This is what she says in an interview like off-camera when she was interviewing him I think in December 2016 Why do you say that and he says so when you report something about me? I don't like they don't believe you It's a preemptive tactic. Yeah It wasn't I mean It was obvious I mean, that's why he attacks the judicial system. I mean, you know Liz Cheney, etc so That so it doesn't yes, and it's horrible also There is a great deal of I think I think that we I think there are too many people in the media that Fall for the trap of Well, Trump and Fox and them hate us Therefore, we are their opposition And we should position ourselves that way and That's not how I see myself. I see lies as our opposition But if Donald Trump is doing something interesting in terms of trying to appeal to automakers I'm gonna report that. I mean I might say I Might provide the context of what he did or did not do for automakers when he was president But like I'm I'm not opposed to him as a person or his policies per se. I'm certainly opposed to Not accepting the results of an election and staging an insurrection etc But like I have no position on the Abraham Accords or his tax cuts And I think too many in the media Who positioned themselves as well if he is against us, I'm against him falls into his trap and Does some of his job for him I think and when you launch a you know when you When you're not objective when you don't try to be fair Then you are Helping them make that case against yourself. I think so. How do you see your role? To call balls and strikes to stand up against lies To stand up against indecency but not Not to advocate for one party or the other Not to you know, I Chip Roy is a very conservative congressman. He he comes on my show. He wants to talk about The need for this continuing resolution to pass to fund the government. I don't have a position on it you know Let me tell you something the Argument that our government Spends more money than it takes in is Not inaccurate That's a fact. That's a fact. We do spend more money than we take in now Maybe you think we should take in more and increase taxes. Maybe you think we should spend less Maybe you think it's a combination of both. Maybe you think deficit spending doesn't matter I don't know those are all positions to take but it is true that we are spending more In interest on our debt than we are spending on many social programs that would benefit our kids So I'm not here to advocate against those who want to Balance the budget. I am willing to Pass it that okay, how do you want to do it? How do you want to achieve it? I don't think it's a crazy thing to want Hmm, and I think that we need we in the media Need to do a better job not just automatically assuming if These guys like it, then I've got to hate it and I think that Trump First of all, I think that first of all Republican suspicion of the of the news media Has been going on for Generations right decades. I'm old enough to remember George HW Bush at a convention. I think in Houston Holding up a bumper sticker that said annoy the media vote for Bush, right? Wasn't that here where George P? Bush stood up and said Viva Bush. He was like a little chubby kid. Am I wrong? I think that's that sounds right. Yes, he's not chubby anymore. Don't get me wrong He was like eight or something, but I'm just saying like it was a little kid He was the grandson of 41st president. Yeah So and that's just my memory anyway So, I mean that's always been the perception so it's not like it's new but the idea of They're not with us. Therefore. We should not give them interviews or we should be demonizing them or we should hate them Or we should be bashing them so much that our supporters are sending pipe bombs to their offices That's where we are now. I mean Literally he had there was a Trump superfan in Florida. You remember this Caesar Sayak who was sending pipe bombs to CNN and other places? and you would think on Planet Earth that might cause somebody to say maybe I've maybe my rhetoric's gotten a little too heated but no, so I'm not here to say like that that isn't obscene it is it's of course. It's horrible, but I also think that like The disruption that he caused and he's a disruptor sometimes for good often for ill Shouldn't make us lose our equilibrium so much that We don't even try to be fair about issues and Debates and such You moved to Washington in 1998 the tail end of the Clinton administration. Did I move into Washington? No, I moved to Washington in it's not 98. No. No, I moved to Washington in 1992 Oh Yeah, I worked for a member of congress. I worked for a fan I I graduated from college went to film school hated it came back home Had no idea what I wanted to do with my life Completely miserable if there's anybody here who is in college or just out of college I did not become a full-time journalist until I was Like 28 or 29 Please do not put pressure on yourself that you have to have everything figured out by 22 or 23. Please do not Take some time Please You will figure it out You're gonna be okay. Honestly. I swear to god And there are gonna be people there who are like law school business school and you're gonna be like Oh my god, they have everything figured out and You're gonna be fine Do not worry Um, anyway, so I had no idea what I wanted to do. I picked up the paper a family friend was running for congress I called her she said come on out. I went out to her house it was like her Some friend of hers and me and we started working on I started writing position papers For her and then she she it was the year of the woman Um, she won and then I became her press secretary in washington and I hated it and um Then I hopped around doing pr and like in there. I started writing freelance stories And then somewhere in there I started doing full-time journalism like 90 Eight That's where I came in to do so the 98 so here's here's another tip but that but those were those lost years You're fine to skip over them Another tip for young folks in the audience if you're doing reporting if you get into jake's field and you're a reporter Don't get your facts on wikipedia Just saying that's where I got that 98 thing But but you started you you got the news business New business a full-time new full-time news reporter in 1998 and all the previous years Misery working in for pr firms and all of the like So you have covered every administration from clinton forward. Yes, and had a pretty good view of washington How has it changed in the course of those 20 plus years? Um, well, it was perfectly nasty back in the 90s. Um, like and I think people act as if it wasn't You know, it was super nasty back in the 90s But there was more Uh Bipartisan fraternizing, you know under, you know At parties and such Uh in the 90s, I would say like Trump really And this is again, this is not necessarily even a bad thing but the whole White house correspondence dinner Gridiron and all that stuff he kind of just because he didn't want to participate because he felt like he wasn't Liked by those people And he stopped going and it became kind of less Celebratory which in honestly it is some of those things can be kind of gross In in ways It's less so Now and then maybe I mean obama was kind of peak All of that all peak washington's celebration of itself Um, which you know, again, i'm saying it's not necessarily a wonderful thing. A lot of people thought it was gross um I mean there is a degree to which I'm not I didn't come here to praise donald trump, but there is a degree to which his hatred of us Journalists did kind of like take off some of the More odious edifices of washington like for instance I was thinking about this the other day when I was trying to get john curbie the white house spokesman Uh to explain the photograph of joe biden smiling at mohammed bin salman um Who who biden promised he would make a pariah? um and uh Look, I got it. I understand why every president bows to saudi arabia I drive, you know, I get it and I know i'm in texas so um, but like To a degree All donald trump was doing when he just like was shamelessly pro saudi and didn't care That they murdered of washington post columbus and just Just didn't to a degree all he was doing was Admitting it That's what I was thinking when I was interviewing curbie That doesn't make it good But it kind of exposes the hypocrisy of it all that we make joe biden We maybe it's us. Maybe it's our fault. We make joe biden pretend that he's really going to get stern with the saudi's And then He doesn't get stern with the saudi's You know, I don't know. I'm sorry to sound so cynical I'm not I'm not praising trump and I'm not blaming biden. I'm just like it is there is just something Uh weird about the the kabuki that we make presidential candidates go through Well, let me when you were here five years ago, you quoted mark quain who said History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes. You know what since then I have investigated that quote and mark quain didn't say it Wikipedia says he did No, no, but no one knows who said it I just until I yeah, no one knows who said it So I wish it was mark twain because it's such a great quote. Well, everything else is attributed to mark twain So they get some anyway, but it is a great. I said it You heard me five years ago in this stage You have Heavy research of the 1950s The 1960s and the 1970s for works of fiction and you've lived in washington in the 1990s I sound really cynical tonight. I'm sorry. I haven't I stopped drinking a few weeks ago Maybe that's the problem Does somebody have a stick of butter that he can consume? quick, please What I'm wondering is is there any time that you've researched or lived through in the past 70 years In any way remotely rhymes with the times we're living through right now all of it rhymes I mean the mccarthy era rhymed with trump because Very few people were willing to criticize joe mccarthy even though they knew He was wrong And they all thought somebody else was going to do it And the only one who was brave enough There were very few people who were brave enough to do it margaret chase smith The great republican moderate senator from main was one of the few she went to the floor of the senate And with her declaration of conscience and she called him out In 1950 Four years before the the senate censured him four years before the sainted edward or morrow did it and That's what she's remembered for And you know and that reading about that made me realize like that is like you don't get to pick What you become remembered for um In the sense that like i'm sure robert taft The senate majority leader in 1954 when i wrote that book i'm sure he thought he was going to be The president someday or he'll be known for his great foreign policy views although he's known for being an isolationist So people think of him negatively But he was really known for being an isolationist for losing to eisenhower And for and for being afraid of mccarthy and like you don't really enter dropping dead in the senate But you don't really get to um, you don't get to pick The the the challenge for which you'll be remembered And so you might as well just stand for what you believe in because That ultimately might be your moment. We know how this chain is going to be remembered We know how anam kinsinger is going to be remembered Mitt romney is going to we know how mitt romney is going to be remembered And you know until these recent challenges he probably would have been remembered for You know for flip-flopping on abortion for like for maybe not such positive things But then came another moment So margot j smith is remembered for what she's remembered And the people who hid In mccarthy's washington will be remembered the way they are and so that was resonant The devil may dance is really more about Um, hollywood sexism than it is about i mean to a degree it's about Who you who you dance with and who you get in bed with second book the second book second of the It's about it's about, you know, the kennedy getting in the kennedy's getting in bed with Sinatra and sinatra getting in bed with the mob and all of that, but it's really more of a hollywood story and this book is about demagogues and Yellow journalism tabloid journalism and obviously this was directly written about today Although i mean not you know, i'm not not with a sledgehammer, but i was definitely thinking more directly about it Back in may CNN did a town hall in new hampshire With donald trump moderated by Caitlyn collins and it was roundly criticized for offering Trump a platform for his lies and disinformation What we did we did what? I'm sure i got that one right But if you were to stage that town hall today What would you change? so I guess the here are the questions that i would ask about the the criticism of the town hall I guess first of all There is this and i really mean this is very sincere questions um i because i have now done a town hall with Vice president pence when his book came out last year and i did a town hall with uh ambassador nicky hailey um in iowa And i guess one question i have is Do you think the town hall format and do you think that the idea of it is a is a is a good thing to do? I mean i do But i can understand people think it's just an advertisement for the candidate or You know why even do it it's because it's because it is it as a format. It's not the hardest hitting format it is If you're doing it you're doing it uh if if you're if you're joe biden It's democrats and democrat leading independence in a you know in new hampshire or iowa whatever So it is generally going to be a friendly audience and generally issues that you want to talk about And maybe i'll follow up here and there but it's generally going to be Not the toughest situation so that's one And then then there's the argument and this is obviously the big the big question Do you treat donald trump like you treat any other candidate? And obviously that is a That is an institutional question for any other for any institution any news organization And some people say you have to And some people say you can't he's not In terms of the number of falsehoods he tells in terms of the insurrection he led And then there is the question of if you do it how do you do it? Is alive is it on tape? If it's if it's on tape Do you fact check it? And then there's the question about I mean nbc was thoroughly Criticized for even just doing an interview with him. Yeah. Yeah, and how they did the interview and i'm Amenable to all of these criticisms and I get it, but I just also think The media is in a Very difficult situation Because he is in all likelihood going to be the republican nominee Yeah And the polls indicate that it is at the very least Going to be a very competitive race He's going to win this state That's not even a question. Um, and He could very well be elected again And what is our responsibility is our responsibility to deny him a platform? at all Are we supposed to Provide him a platform but challenge him aggressively I mean, these are none of these are easy questions and answers Um, so I don't have answers for you. I was not 100% I was not involved in any of it other than after the town hall. Anderson. I Co-anchored the response. Um, I think the world of katlyn collins. I think she did An impossible job and she tried to fact check him as much as she could But that's very it's very difficult to do Elizabeth Mentioned the people that you've just interviewed in the last year and you've interviewed a president or two You interviewed donald trump several times but not since 2016 What is it like to interview donald trump? So the last time I interviewed donald trump Was I think june of 2016 He had he was um Being sued for The shell game of trump university And he had a judge judge curial And he had the night before our interview Insulted judge curial in an interview with the wall street journal saying the judge curial couldn't do his job Because he was a mexican could be objective He couldn't be yes, he couldn't be objective as a judge because the indiana born judge curial was a mexican And I saw that and you know, I had a 30 questions as I always do And I thought to myself This is the most important question i'm going to ask him And i'm not going to stop until I get it Not until I get an answer until I get the question out Because getting the question out with donald trump is one of the most challenging things because he does not He is unrelenting. Yeah In his interrupting in his changing of the subject In his I mean you've never It is like walking into a tornado I cannot explain it Other than Our Tasmanian devil's real. Is that a real thing? Do you have them here? I would think that would be something you would have here It feels like something you would have here Only in the legislature Is el chupa cabra real? I feel like that would be something you would have here. Anyway, so um It's just anyway the interviews on video you could find it, but like I wanted to say You said he can't do the job Because he uh because he's mexican A He's from indiana But okay, he has mexican heritage B if you're saying he can't do the job because of his race Is that not the definition Of racism That was what I wanted to ask it took me about 15 minutes to get it out But I got it out The interview was on tape Uh We aired it By the way, I mean they didn't have a After the interview it was great The rnc had we were in beverley hills The rnc had sent a bunch of um Chinese american donors to his house to take pictures of him And uh That was a scene. Um And he kept on calling them chinese and they kept on saying No, we're chinese american and he kept on saying some of you were chinese like no, we're chinese american A few of you are chinese. No, we're all chinese It like it literally would be illegal for any of them to be chinese. I mean because Campaign donor loss anyway They were fine with it. They thought it was fine. It was lovely exchange whatever like I mean the truth is um In one on one exchange is he's actually not Impervious, I mean he's he's he's he's fine with like tough questions. I mean he at least in 2016 he was But the things jake he obfuscates so adeptly and so Relentlessly to use the word you used earlier I would think that if you continue to ask the question you're desperately trying to ask him you seem strident I mean, you know, I think he appreciate honestly. I I don't think that he I honestly don't like I'm not an expert in the psychology of Donald trump, but I don't think He thought I was strident I think he just like he's just you know, he's just doing his neo things and like I got there and he said no, I don't think so. I don't think it's racist. It's got to be an enormous challenge but anyway It aired. Yeah, it did not go well for him And that was the last interview I got with him. Yeah 2016 2016 and and You know, and I think he would like to do an interview with cnn. Yeah, but I don't but I've I've I don't think he should be able to do one until he does it with me. Yeah, because now I am I wasn't then but now I am the chief dc anchor And I don't think In the same way that it used to be at nbc for the late great tim russard If you wanted to do an interview as a candidate You had to go through big boy. Sure. And that was russard after russard You know, you could talk to other people right now I'm not tim russard, but I am the chief dc anchor and my opinion is You need to go through me. Sure So we'll see what happens. So eric erickson the talk the conservative talk radio show host was on your show yesterday and he said Those who try to imitate donald trump wind up losing In your view is the maga movement about a movement or about a man What what happens to maga if donald trump is no longer leading the charge? It's interesting I think he has reshaped the republican party in some ways. I do think it's true that It does it is non transferable Like I mean he's not Like it you can't become him. There is something about him That people his fans like um I mean one of the things he did Is he changed the electorate He was able to get people who were low propensity voters To turn out in places like pennsylvania and wisconsin and michigan And that's remarkable if you can do that one of the things obama did i'm not comparing trump and obama But one of the things obama did in iowa is He got first time voters to turn out to vote for him in the caucuses If you can do that if you can reshape a map if you can get people If you can if you can change the pool of voters Now it's easier to do in a caucus Right, right, but if you can change the pool You can really do something so I think those voters those low propensity are less likely to turn out for Whoever comes after trump, but I also think that there is a Um, he has shifted and changed things in the republican party That um That aren't that aren't going to change back some of them Very much for bad and some of them Like I think the nastiness and I think the um What will most what I will most politely call nativism um But I think also Some of it not necessarily for bad such as I think uh the The other side of the more isolationist tendency is the lack of knee jerk militarism Um in the g.o.p. It used to be The republicans always wanted to It seems send the marines And democrats too actually democrats are more like that now it seems So I I think that's probably a positive. I wonder at one point That will mean that the defense the defense budget actually goes down as opposed to going up, but in any case That's you know, I think biden has not taken any of the trump tariffs on china down So the two parties, you know like he's actually gotten The republican party to become more At least by the union definition pro worker I mean, so he's changed thinking in the g.o.p That I don't think is horrible or at least it's shifted Less chamber of commerce in some ways maybe not on the tax bill, but I don't know There has been a rethinking that I think is interesting That but some of the other stuff that goes with it is horrible Biden has been in office for nearly three years and Latest polls show he's at about 41 approval rating among the american people But interestingly 53 of the american people disapprove Of his job performance the He's done more legislatively than perhaps any president since linden johnson. He is the economies on the uptick Why is he not gaining traction with the american people? um, I think there are a few reasons one of them is inflation And even though inflation is ticking down It's still up in some important places when it comes to um groceries eggs gas There is um a perception in some instances of In competence the withdrawal from afghanistan um is not going to go down as one of america's greatest strategic moments um But you're right. I mean just in terms of legislative accomplishments Uh, there have been some significant ones both ones that were purely partisan And ones that were bipartisan Um, probably the most since uh since lbj Why that is I don't know I mean, I think one of the reasons is We are in a time of division That makes it very difficult for any president to achieve super high approval ratings um And part of that is the silos in which we put ourselves informationally And part of that is Just kind of the dissatisfaction that people feel about Where the country is going And that's always that's a perennial problem Also, you know until trump is the nominee he will not be running against any one individual I think until that sorts out It won't be biden versus You know, right? I mean theoretically it still could be biden versus nicky hailey sure and in our poll We did a head-to-head matchup. This is two weeks ago Nicky hailey cleans his clock. Yeah, but Biden versus any other republican. It's within the margin of error so You know That electability argument doesn't seem to hold much sway when it comes to voters also by the way, I mean The the idea that he's 80 years old looks every day of it and um a majority of the american people a majority of democrats Worry that he won't be able to do the job That he'll be 86 at the end of the next term Remember people were worried about ronald reagan being able to do the job At what 72? Well, he left office in 77 at 77. Yeah, but people were talking about how old he was in 72 69. He came into office Yeah, I mean holy smokes. Yeah 69 that's like a marathon runner I'm serious 69. Mike Pence is out there talking about how young he is. He's like 66 I'm serious. So I mean he's He seems Old Right Donald trump is 77 But he does not seem as old now. He might seem a lot of other things to you people But it's it's it's not but he doesn't seem Any different than he did 10 years ago necessarily So joe biden has been a fixture in washington since you moved there back in the 90s Joe biden has been a fixture in washington since I was five. Yes But you've gotten I'm not exaggerating as he would say i'm not being facetious Jack comes into washington as a senator in 1973. It's oh, i'm sorry four as it tells for So has anything surprised you about the biden presidency? um No Not particularly. Um, you know, it's weird because He was he has been there so long When I started covering politics on a national level in the late 90s He was Regarded and maybe unfairly so as kind of a clownish Uh Windbag, um, there's a famous story Um of obama senator obama in a hearing I think it was a senate foreign relations hearing Listening to somebody speak and writing and writing a note to an aide that says like shoot me now And it was biden it was it was chairman biden. I believe was speaking And he was known as a as a you know glad handing like Old irish patch on the back windbag um and supercilious and self important And What's interesting is How much he has reinvented That image first through the vice presidency Well for I mean a lot of for a lot of people. He hasn't reinvented that image. Let's let's be honest I mean a lot of republicans still see him as that um but You know he became uh kind of The indispensable vice president in many ways during the the The the the obama presidency and then You know The savior of the democratic party And it really is still remarkable How that whole nomination thing happened He got clocked in iowa clobbered new hampshire He won south carolina and then all of a sudden everybody dropped out except for bernie sanders There was some maneuvering behind the scenes there that we still have not learned about Somebody's gonna win a Pulitzer someday for like telling us about what happened there like all of a sudden everybody who Won the other two contests dropped out Okay. Anyway, um He uh He is a tough Washington operator and One of the things that is most interesting about him is this avuncular Grandpa joe uncle joe image, which I think in you know, I think he's very sincere When he meets people who have suffered grief about dealing with them because that's an issue that he knows about sure um But he is tough behind the scenes. He's a tough guy like cold-hearted I'm not this is not meant as a criticism That's the job you need to be that for that job. I don't think anyone who's had that job Uh has not been that maybe jimmy carter right um And uh, that's interesting. I think he has a real blind spot And perhaps understandably so when it comes to his family And I think that's a real problem um When it comes to his brothers and his son Making money off the body name and maybe there's nothing illegal about it But it sure stinks We what? Yeah, that stinks too Yeah Jared kushner that stinks even two billion dollars. Absolutely stinkeroony More on that. Okay I have reported on it I have reported on it. I mean, uh, you know, I Yes, see this is I mean The idea that I haven't reported on it is not it's not accurate. I have reported on it Jared kushner Was donald trump's emissary to mbs Uh convinced well, I don't even I don't know if trump needed any convincing But they did nothing against the saudis and then he gets out of office and uh goes and Gets two billion dollars from the saudis. I've asked chris christy about it on air I've asked the oversight committee chairman james comber about it on air And he agreed on air that he didn't think it was ethical and he had a problem with it I mean, I do cover it Maybe watch it clip it post it retweet it. How about that? That's an idea. I mean, I do I do cover it. I will continue to cover it There is great concern understandably in this country about the state of our democracy What concerns you most? When you look at democracy in America today and it's uh, uh in its current state The degree to which there is a sizable group of americans who Don't believe in the rule of law when it comes to elections. I mean, it's terrifying and Thankfully so far The rule of law has prevailed, but I don't know how long that's gonna last adam kinsinger said to me one time We did a documentary called Trumping democracy this is before the january 6 hearings and Adam kinsinger said to me, you know, you have a guardrail on a highway And you see where a car is hidden And you're like, thank god that guardrail was there. But what about the next time a car hits that guardrail? How long is that guardrail gonna last? You know last and I worry Yes, the voters Uniformly in the battleground states in pennsylvania and in michigan and in arizona and in georgia Went to the ballot box and voted against the election liars and thank god um And i'm not talking about democrat versus republican. I don't care, but like brad raffensperger Stood the line right conservative republicans stood the line. He's you know, I saw i'm this isn't partisan um but I mean it is an entirely partisan I should say um But there's a but there is an there is a there is a I don't know if a authoritarian is the word It feels right But there is an anti democratic anti rule of law movement in this country to believe deranged lies about the election in an effort to subvert the will of the people and I never thought I I'd never imagined we'd see anything like that. We come from a We come from a tradition of where people contest elections And then ultimately they concede the idea that anybody is comparing this to bush v gore is so crazy I've listened to some focus groups the other day This one, you know sarah longwell. She does these She's with this Republican Group called the bulwark. Um, they're like anti trump republicans and she does these focus groups. They're really interesting and she did some Um with double trump people who voted for trump twice and she checked in on them to see what they thought about that, you know This case in that case in this case in that case Anyway, when it came to the january sixth case Some woman said something about oh, it's just like bush v gore It's nothing like bush v gore. I mean it'd be like bush bush v gore. It would be like bush v gore kind of if on december 17th trump had said, okay, I lost Then it would accept, you know in six states not one, but like Then it would have been something like it. Okay. We challenged it legally and we lost all our cases except one and whatever But no, it's not like that at all and the degree to which people are just going to repeat talking points believe lies and there is a chunk of the country that not only a chunk of office holders people who know better Who enable it the speaker of the house the speaker of the house voted After january six When their bodies the dead bodies were still warm To disenfranchise The voters of pennsylvania and arizona the speaker of the house the majority leader and the woman who ultimately became The the conference leader although liz chaney at the time was She did not vote that way So that concerns me that is the without question Nothing comes close to the greatest threat to democracy in the country right now I'm concerned about the way we silo ourselves off I'm concerned about the way we What about everything we heard some of that tonight? I'm allowed to think that What? I'm allowed to think that sleaze is sleaze And I'm allowed to not like it regardless of party. That's my job let me uh Let me quote your broadcast news Assessor edward r. Murrow who set in repudiation to macartheism in uh in the mid 1950s This is no time for men who oppose senator macarthe's methods to keep silent right We can deny our heritage in our history, but we cannot escape responsibility for the result Has the fourth estate on balance been responsible in its coverage on recent developments that have been threatening to our democracy? yes, but I am I I see too much Creeping in of the desire to It let me just make it clear. It's not fun to Um to stand it's not fun to like call things lives It's not fun to it's not fun in front of this audience to like say Hunter biden's business deals were sleazy. I know that's not gonna win over the crowd um, it's not fun to to that's I saw a headline in usa today the other day That was so that worried me so much It was about like a majority of republicans Believe trumps Concerns about rigged elections Or something like that Framed in such a way As to allow for the Possibility that maybe the elections are rigged and I just thought Every single person Waking up in a holiday inn is going to read that And think Maybe Maybe the elections are rigged I don't mean to be snarky about the holiday inn thing, but that's mainly where I see usa today's but but but no, but seriously the idea that trumps You know that trumps concerns about elections being rigged That's not what they are trumps lies about the election, I mean This is not opinion. This has been adjudicated Even his own supreme court Wouldn't even look at the cases His supreme court that overturned roby wade Wouldn't even look at the cases His judges, I mean So the idea that people in the news media are not willing to call it a lie Worries me Because when that happens journalists are like You ever you guys this must be something that happens a lot in texas You ever see like a beautiful flock of birds at a distance And they're just all flying one way and then for some reason they all just start flying the other way And then you don't even know why it's just like one bird just decides. Oh, I'm just gonna and they all just start following Like that's what we're like and if If all of it like if every bird starts flying like, you know, we're just all going to start pretending that The elections were you know me it's just a debate Maybe they were rigged How do you explain whatever? I worry that so many people in the media are going to start doing that And that terrifies me it really does Look at what fox did They were so worried about losing viewers They they lied to their audience in a way That they knew what they knew they were lying And that you know because they were worried about losing millions of dollars sure So I'm really that really terrifies me. It really does. There's so much money at stake And there's so many powerful people invested in this lie And it's you know, and you have and we're and we keep losing People that are willing to Stand up against it Like there was like Liz Cheney's gone kinsinger's gone What republican in the house Is willing to stand up against it? I mean seriously name name a house republican Currently in office Who is willing to stand up and say I don't believe any of these election lies I Maybe there is one I can't think of one Peter meyer from michigan. He lost his He lost his seat We he was defeat was he defeated in the primary? Yeah, yeah Ken Buck in colorado I forget if he's I mean he's been showing a lot of Spine on a lot of stuff unlike the hunter biden stuff, but I forget I forget if where he is on that stuff, but that's a good note. I maybe And then mit romney's retiring And so I just don't know who's left I know republicans house republicans who don't believe the lies But they just want to keep their head down And do their job because they believe that They can do a better job on This issue whatever their focus is Keeping republicans focused on this other thing As long as they don't poke their head up on trump And get primaried and lose their job and I understand that argument I really do Because look at list chainy And look at jeff flake and look at bob corker. I mean I get it But it's just terrifying. I mean look at what happened here With uh your attorney general Well, it's not like there was any evidence How many of you have a burner phone? Jake we hope you keep calling balls and strikes. Thank you And we thank you for what you do the book Is all the demons are here and our guest tonight has been the great jake tamper jake. Thanks so much come back Come back. Thank you