 All right, thank you everyone for joining us for this last session of the Builder studio as we were told that we'll be discussing exits Especially from the acquisition point of view. So with me here. I have Jan Reza, but now the CEO and founder of time is limited, but previously Like he founded and led social bakers for nine years as was told and was had a successful exit to a private equity fund in 2020 Yeah, would you want to introduce yourself a bit more? Yeah, so, you know serial entrepreneur and I guess You know when I started my journey Originally, we we kind of didn't know where we're taking it You know, are we just building a company are we gonna exit and and early on we said with my co-founders look when we when we reach 50 million hundred million in company valuation. We're just gonna exit, you know, we're gonna right off to the sunset. We're all gonna be extremely happy and You know as we surpassed a funding with evaluation of a hundred million were sort of like, okay that's that's clearly not happen, but you know, we're moving on and I guess the the ongoing learning for me moving forward is just there's probably no writing into the sunset that's why I'm building my next business time is limited and You know happy to share the experiences with everyone here on the exit itself Yeah, so let's start kind of with a very basic question. How would you define an exit? Well, you and I spoke about this a bit back at backstage, right? So so an exit, you know, what would it be defined you said it would be the exit of the investors And I guess that's that's really it right because for a lot of the founders a lot of my friends sold companies to you know Facebook and and others are and are staying around and not only for example in their look up But many of them are thinking of staying after Because you know some of the companies that that acquire them create an environment where which is still a nobody They can still stay and they take care of their baby Others so like in my case. I I already wasn't full-time when we sold a company So I didn't have to stay I didn't have to look up and didn't have to sort of serve the fold two three years And also there's a third scenario where you kind of sell the company You really don't want to be around but you really have to and you're locked in and a lot of money is locked in there and I That actually is a prevailing number of my friends that have sold companies that have Kind of this scenario that they're sticking around and counting the days and cutting down the meter up to up to the point of The exit so interesting. So what's a successful exit? I you know, it's I guess for the investor but also for for the founder, right? Yeah, I suppose the definition of a successful exit is different for an investor And it is often discussed from the investor point of view, but then that's not necessarily same for you Since you were acquired when did you know you would sell the company? Well, you know, we've got offers for actually very similar amounts of money to what we sold for several years back and We we decided not to we thought there's you know bigger upside and so there there's probably an earlier time for us to sell the company or optimally but but I think you kind of Know when you reached a phase where you're like, okay So can we really move this as a team forward or is this is this something that's gonna have to be done by by someone else? Or it's gonna have to be merged into a bigger company That's gonna blend it with the a wider piece of software and especially this the social media marketing stage specifically started consolidating and We were one of that we were afraid this was a game of musical chairs And we would be the last independent company standing You know what would really it would not really fit anywhere because everybody's made their bet and acquisition So there was a risk of that really well since you said that you got similar office beforehand as well Do you think it was actually the right time to sell? It was probably it was probably the right time to sell a little bit before then we then we did But I think it it was not the wrong idea to you know kind of keep trying to keep going So I think it was it was in a way optimal timing for The founding team it was probably optimal timing for the for the shareholder investors as well And then I suppose it's quite difficult for founders to let go of a company I think a company is kind of like your baby and and you would want to like a lot of like a Lot of founders obviously have to dream of taking their company's public and so on But when is it actually better to sell than to push forward like what are the things you should look be looking at? Besides your runway for example Well for us, you know My co-founders and I always discuss this like when do we when do we do this who wants to do it who doesn't and When we were selling the business only sort of one and a half co-founders were in the business full-time at that moment and one of them was becoming a commercial pilot, which he is today was funny and And they kind of like we we had differences of opinion at the moments at that moment So I personally didn't want to sell for a long time and and they they you know already said, okay You know, it's the right time on so and at the end of the day a combination of sort of opportunities and investor talks We're like, okay, let's let's let's do this right now What was the kind of final thing that convinced you since you said you were convinced of it later, maybe well You know, we had investors that were in different stages of their funds But but for for you know, we were very fortunate enough that index one of our investors Was they were at the end of their funds life cycle? But at the at the same time we were in a fund where adien was a massive fund returner they did like 50x with one company of a return on a fund maybe even more and and so it was like For index monetarily This was a big nice to have on that fund and so they did kind of like you guys do What you want to do and and the other fun at the time that we were starting to exit was was was Was did not have that fund returner yet, but it happened as we were exiting So, you know while there potentially was pressure at the beginning. There was absolutely no pressure at the end So we almost scrapped the exit several several times where we said, okay, maybe do we go and Just stop this and wait and we eventually said we want to we want to move forward with it Yeah, it's obviously very different depending on yeah Whether you're bootstrapped or whether you actually have VC funding behind you and then as you said Depending on where the funds are actually themselves at with there. Yeah, exactly And I think the biggest aspect to this by the way, right? It was was COVID right? We saw we started selling basically with with the pandemic and our bankers were from London And you know, they they used to fly to San Francisco five times a week But suddenly, you know, they wouldn't include and so we sold a company over zoom meetings And that's a big difference of how it used to be done So you're one of the sort of first bigger processes that happened over almost exclusively over zoom Yeah, so Now that we've kind of discussed how you actually came to the decision of Selling your company. What was the actual process like could you kind of detail the different steps that founders should look out for? Yeah, so so I think Every co-founder like I was on the board of the company, right? Even even after I was not not full-time. We had very regular boards once every two to three months And we were discussing this for for several boards in a row We were you know, we we were not in a rush the company was sort of cashflow neutral Which means it wasn't burning money. We didn't really need to go raise some some emergency funding And it was it was like that for four four and a half five years where it didn't really burn any of its any of its cash So we were in a very different situation. We were not under pressure, which means we could easily take You know a year or more of time which eventually we thought this was a six-month process But with COVID it ended up I think being like time from bankers signature to time to money I think it ended up being way over a year and this surprised me because we were all expecting like Okay, it's gonna be done in six months. It's almost a bargain for the buyer and You know with COVID this was much more difficult than we ever anticipated For the other things that surprised you in the process Well, you know, we had I guess we had the most Interesting closing day of that I've ever heard anyone describe So we were supposed to just arrive, you know founders shareholders investors and sign Sharehold investors just gave power of attorneys and this was all supposed to happen in in in person Learning number one don't ever build we we had the company's eight HQ and the original sort of mother company was a check company And you had we had physical shares, which means they had to be given over to someone and The American company buying it send their lawyers and and they're like well, here's the signature page Can you sign it and give me your shares? And we're like that. Well, that's not how it works over here like we can't do that We're just giving you shares and you'd have all of it and we'd have a signature page with no commitment so we wanted money on the accounts before or during giving them the shares and so There was a big misunderstanding when we came into the signing room and the person that was supposed to solve that the CFO CEO of the company and president of the company was quarantined with co, you know a COVID quarantine sitting in a car under the lawyer's office So I don't recall how many elevator trips I did between his car and the and the office But we were supposed to come at noon and have it signed and done with champagne at 2 30 When it 2 30 p.m You know sort of 12 hours later when we were still fighting of over, you know The terms and and attachments and and amendments and we were just exhausted and at several times We thought we'd walk away, but luckily, you know the voices from the cars and the and various other places and I have to say like Index really like stepped up at that point Andre the chief legal at at index Spent nine hours with us on a video call and and stayed with us till 4 a.m. Which is the moment that it signed So not to a p.m. And there was no champagne. There was rum And and because it was just too late for champagne and we thought we would go out to party and we we just When to go to sleep So actually I was gonna ask I think one of the things that seems like quite a big buck boxed to me is the legal side of M&A's and you said index supported you in that very much I think you know they they Andre is one of the best lawyers business lawyers I've ever worked with in my life and we also had regular lawyers that sent an invoice to which I almost fainted when I got it right and US lawyers and then EU lawyers and all sorts of things and I guess you just have to kind of it, you know When when when you're you know chopping down the forest There's you know timber wood flying around wood chops flying around So I guess that's how you need to approach it even though if it's a you know Big chunk of the deal that you burn all yours. It's you have to do it. They're there to protect you and you know We didn't have any problems After you know all all escrow's were were released, which is you know great for us So, you know, they did a good job And as you mentioned you you did all of this over zoom and a lockdown. How was that? Terrible really really terrible so I I don't advise or recommend to anyone But I guess people were not used to it back then right now I think people are more and more used to doing this, but yeah, it was it was tough Speaking of tough. Yeah, the next question is kind of on as I mentioned before Founders do tend to maybe view their companies as their children somewhat So I think the question then becomes kind of how was the process emotionally for you like giving up your company? Well, it was it was very difficult. It was difficult in many stages. It was difficult Leaving it a CEO. It was difficult leaving it as exec in general. I mean But but at the same time, you know that that's the next chapter for the business and it's not like I disappeared and disappeared into into the sunset I kept coming back and We kept chatting. I kept advising as many people as I could at the company privately and I do to this very day and The best I think thing for me that that could happen at the company Whilst people, you know, yes people complain after they got acquired and merged Etc, but first of all like when when it was acquired and it was merged with another Marketing company that is complimentary not competitive, but complimentary The amount of top management roles that were acquired by top managers at social bakers was was just great It was a big number and everyone sort of stayed at the business. No one really 15 months later None of the key people really left the business and that's I think a testament to how we've built and that was the most important thing for me So even then they called me saying oh, I'm so upset. I'll quit I'm like, you know, it's what it is and you you know, are you there for something or are you there for? For the mission and vision we set and that has not changed to this day It's just was helping marketers and is helping marketers provide the best software And how did you kind of find? Like the entity that ended up acquiring you because I mean maybe founders don't set out to you know Thinking that their companies are going to be acquired But it is also important to kind of have those relationships in the kind of ecosystem Yeah, so I think the biggest screw-up and that was personally minus CEO was I didn't build enough Relationship with the strategic ecosystem. I kind of it was always left on a second or third lane Oh, let's focus on the business and growing it and we did But there was never good alignment with with the players in the ecosystem And that's something I would do differently today when building the business. I would start building partnerships deeper Integrations deeper. I mean we launched a Salesforce Integration after the exit of the company, right? So we didn't have a good footprint with some of the key players in the industry And I think that was the biggest mistake we've done and that probably even at the same exact size that the company ended being That might have doubled or tripled the exit outcome and I don't you know I think you can't think of a company building it that that company you know Microsoft or Google's gonna buy it That's not the way, but I think you should have it at the back of your head like You know in case I don't know we run into even trouble or in this case If we if we build a great company and we need a partner Then you need to have those relationships built and social bakers did not have enough of those built up built up And are you changing your ways this time around then with your new company? Well with time is limited. We're obviously you know I like making mistakes, but I hate you know repeating them So learning from that and building key relationships with all the players. So we're time is limited It's we're in the collaboration Analytics space we analyze things like Google things like Microsoft. So while those are our biggest competitors and partners at the same time So so yeah building relationships with those and countless others in the ecosystem is absolutely critical And with you know your previous company, did you actually want to take a public was that the dream you had? Well, I guess every founder is looking at it and thinking okay, okay You know we're gonna ring that bell over at Nasdaq or do something do something along those lines But but you know I guess you know wait having waited maybe a few more years and having But that was not in the that was not in the sort of stars for for for this one, but you know with with With time is limited really even though we're partnering up Etc. I really wish that this this kind of we're gonna take this on a long run really long run And I'm not afraid at all to go and Take it all the way and for me all the way isn't an idea It's it's sort of even funding is today is taken too much as a milestone and I hate it like you know companies big Milestones really don't get covered and you have like yeah, you get a funding round And suddenly you're all over the place and I get why this is the case, but really For for me with time is a minute just a growth milestone a way to get Capital and depending on the opportunity that will arise it will be a form of a form of a milestone But but it really should be how many clients do we have what it what is it how much time with time is limited Do we say for people at big companies and that should be really be how we should be judged and how businesses should be judged in social Bakers case this was you know, it was serving tens of thousands of marketers around the world helping make their job easier so I think And educating them also like when we started social bakers like marketers looked at the number of fans a business had We taught them to use 40-50 metrics in a great way to optimize and run their social media campaigns So besides you mentioning that you would you know this time around to build those strategic kind of relationships in the ecosystem What are the kind of other things you would take out of your previous experience as learnings for other founders and operators? Well, I think the biggest the biggest learning you know Was keep keep having an excellent product I think that that One thing social makers always did well was the tech and the product back end listening to the customer was absolutely critical one thing that we Did not do well was you know, I heard the talk earlier. That was a great talk on international expansion We were one of those companies that kind of did Europe and even rest of world first Before really starting to expand to the US and we were number one or number two in many international markets But we were like number seven eight or nine in the US and that really kind of even though our US presence at the end We were a company with you know 60 million ARR So even though the US presence was pretty big it didn't compare to you know other fellow companies in the space So take on the US a bit stronger. Well, yeah with time is limited where our first sales team is in the US My co-founder Wolf is sitting over in New York and kind of building the team first out of there and winning the US Absolutely first without without you know any exceptions doing that first then kind of focusing on the rest of the world Yeah, so I think one thing that is often said about exits whether that be an acquisition whether that be an IPO and so forth is a lot of people say it's not actually the end and I think a good example in the kind of realm of acquisitions for this is for example a vault Right now in Finland even though they're they're going to be acquired by DoorDash It's not really the end. They're actually gonna lead DoorDash's global efforts. So kind of what I want to ask for you How do you see that your role as a founder following an exit? well, you know My my wife is also a tech entrepreneur and she also sold her company last year To a great kind of fun slash games company. She's in the games NFT games space and she she sold it to Animoka brands led by Yatsio a great CEO and they're approaching buying companies more of a fund even though they buy a hundred percent of the company and So so not only did they all stay founders and team they managed to make a deal on on sort of in a way on investing which which keeps them motivated for the next years to come and building it out and You know as they sort of after they sold they multiply the company, I don't know how many times and You know Animoka just raised, you know around which includes them for like, you know The valuation of the mother companies like two plus billion at this moment. So so I guess there are ways to kind of motivate the founding team after after you stay and of course, you know if if if a Big company like Google, you know buys you then it's a question You can see the examples out there right if the founders sort of stayed not stay Facebook has managed to at first Motivate a lot of its founders of Instagram what's up to stay at the beginning But then you know that quickly shifted and they left after sort of two three four five years And it's now being led by by by other people So I think a company has to figure out like do we want these founders to to stick around in these roles? And at the end work with them and I think very few companies have that capability to keep keep founders around Yeah, and you're yourself resorted to founding a new company Well, I think it it was I you know I 12 years is is a lot for the social media space You know working having worked with Facebook for a long long time I think it was kind of I had enough of social media for a certain amount of time And it was great to cool down and I love I you know when we were building social social bakers It became very clear to me that we had a lot of issues in collaboration as every company does as it was growing and And just you know so many messages on Slack so many meetings more and more and more emails And I just thought there's there's probably a better way to manage and and understand the the heartbeat of a company And so that's why we started time is limited with with my co-founders now because really Enabling other companies to understand their heartbeats from meeting from email from Slack data to understand How should we change that that's very important and like today? We see companies of like a thousand people sending each other slack messages every two minutes and 30 seconds right on average so engaging on like You can kind of see that that's not product You can see leaders spending over a hundred hours a month in meetings and they themselves in service say this is This is not what I want to do. This is not how I want to spend my life So I thought as as the next company kind of starts saving People's time and teams time It's a it's a great mission that we we want to kind of you know take a crack at So I think that kind of proves the point that exit isn't really really the end since I feel like Once a startup founder always a startup founder and you just start a new venture. Yeah, we you know exit You know, there's there's a there's a common misconception in for founders. It's like, okay I sell my company I write off into the sunset and I may be no 50 other founders up close and I know ones that have tried You know, they really sell one of them actually sell the world into the sunset for for a year About a yacht, you know sold his house like went around and Eventually even the ones that I know that took the longest sabbaticals like two three years eventually got so depressed Doing it that they all came back and started the next companies or their funds or or other things and I was in a founder conference a few weeks ago and I think there were sessions around writing in the sunset do we do we go and kind of Just have fun with this money because many of us kind of could you know There's enough money that you don't have to ever work in your life But I've you know, I've yet to see an example where that really Worked and and in a way helped and I think for me getting back into it is just That's when the energy started coming coming back even from From times that sort of after 12 years you're you're pretty tired after running a company for for 12 years So taking some time off is important. I think but Rather managing a work-life balance within building the next company rather than taking a year off and going going crazy I think you know, my wife would probably kick me out of the house, you know, very quickly like go work Please go do something Yeah, I think that's a pretty good note to end on so thank you Jan for joining us for this session. Thank you very much. Enjoy