 I'm here with Rob Hardy, we are Kindred spirits brothers from a different mother. And I'll just, you know, we, this is going to be interesting conversation about marketing, authentically is what I'd say but you might, you might say something like, you know, more friendly way but let me let me share a problem you just kind of share your background and we'll get into it. So Rob, your website is called ungated media, which you bill as the missing instruction manual for 1000 true fans. I love it because that's that's I've really appreciated that concept for years to and that's I mentioned all the time. So your, your membership, your membership is an oasis for creators striving to do the work that only they can do to market in a way that delights people and to enjoy the long game of internet business. You're currently developing a new philosophy of marketing that's rooted in friendliness play non coercion and truth truthfully subverting the status quo I love it. So much we could talk about, you know, because we are so much on the same wavelength on various things. So, let's start with, let's start with the key key idea which is insight out and bottom up. What do you mean by this is, it's weird that I have like my own philosophy and when asked like what's your philosophy Rob I'm just like deer and headlights. I think it. I like to think in binaries now even though I realized there's always plenty of room in the middle shades of gray. Yes, so I like to think about inside out business versus outside in and bottom up versus top down. I spent the first, I don't know, six, seven years of my marketing life my online business life my creative person on the internet life. I spent an outside in and what I mean by that one second I'm sorry, sorry about that. So I'm sorry I interrupted you six, seven years go ahead with outside in top down. Yeah. So this will take a little bit of explaining. Sure. What I mean by outside in is that my disposition towards the world was looking for answers outside of myself. Okay, I approached business and I approached marketing from a standpoint of how can I find the right answers that other people have already figured out. I approached it from how can I find a profitable niche a profitable business idea. How can I build a funnel that is tried and tested and true and that works based on all these conversion and psychological principles and all that, you know the game. And I always felt a sense of maybe discord is the right word a sense of disease unease around those answers because they never they never quite fit me I never felt at home in that world but there's always a sense driven by insecurity that who am I to do things differently than what I'm seeing from everywhere else out in the world. Like clearly all these people are smart they figured it out. If I want to succeed which I do. I shouldn't try to reinvent the wheel. I should just play the game as I see other people playing it so that's what I mean by outside in top down is largely an extension of that. It's, it's about trying to figure out all the right answers ahead of time building the perfect funnel in your head, and then relentlessly trying to execute on that strategy before you really engage with the real world. So it's about building, building systems and putting together puzzles in your mind, rather than engaging with the real world so for me bottom up is, is fundamentally about experimenting it's about letting go of the need to have all the answers right now, letting go of the need to, to feel like you're in control because all that ever is as an illusion whenever in control anything. And then just approaching this question of marketing of business of creativity from a stance of curiosity and play, and just going out into the world and trying shit to see what happens. And then learning iterating growing seeing where you end up and the thing that I keep finding is that that paired with this idea of inside out which is where I do some deep introspective work to understand my, my inner my values my worldview my various spiky edges and perspectives to see what really emotionally resonates for me. And I use that as a jumping off point to go out into the world, and run these little bottom up experiments like that has been transformative in in the way I do in the ways that I can't even explain. It's like I spent so many years living, just like trapped in my head, like consuming and consuming and consuming and trying to build like these perfect intricate systems. And they never really worked in the real world. But now I've let go of the need to have those answers and I'm just sort of flowing with with business with creativity with life, and, and it's working. That's the thing is like I'm, I'm, I'm in a place of ease. I'm having fun. I'm making a lot of friends. I'm creating interesting content. Yeah. And I'm ending up with the same business outcomes. Right. That I was, that I was just like pushing and forcing and trying so hard before. Right. And they always seem to like elude me when like the harder I tried to force it the further away those things would get one of those paradoxes. But yeah, so bottom out or bottom up inside out. I don't know if that still makes sense. I might need a better way to clarify that. Yeah, no, but definitely. I mean, I'm right there with you. I mean, this is everyone watching this is why I'm, you know, where I brought Rob here because, you know, and, and I want to encourage everyone to visit your site. I love the simplistic elegance of it. I love the way you write as well, you know, it's like, you know, I feel like you're like we think the same thoughts and it just comes out very elegantly in your writing and it's really great. Yeah. And I felt reading your site is like, Oh, why is why is George writing my words. Yeah, yeah. No, it's it's this is really good. Now. This is where a lot of people. The loudest voices tend to be the, the top down, you know, outside in people. And this is why. This is a bit of an oasis, you know, from from all that. And speaking of Oasis, you also talk about this idea of running an Oasis business. So yeah. What is what is that. Yeah, say more about it. Yeah. So I like I just love this as a metaphor, this idea of this idea of a little space you stumble across that is so nourishing and lively and supportive of your life. And in fact, it's surrounded by, you know, by desert like it's what no Oasis is in a place that's barren and unfriendly and, and just like generally, like the exact opposite and I don't know it's one of those things that I think I sort of intuitively stumbled into is building businesses that have that feeling like my first business was called filmmaker freedom. And at least once a week people would literally, I don't know, just out of the blue be like yo I just stumbled across this place and it feels so different from everything else in like everything else that surrounds it. And like that was that was something that was sort of like baked into the DNA of it because when I started building that business in 2015, the landscape of you know like filmmaking blogs and photography blogs and whatever. There's almost entirely around gear, like people were obsessed with gear they were obsessed with like the latest fanciest tools. There is, there is very little talk of some of the deeper stuff around telling meaningful stories around in, you know, some of those stuff around like the logistical challenges of making a film. Like there's, there's things that really move the needle in terms of producing beautiful art, and nobody was really talking about it at the time. And I kind of had this screw this I like nobody else is writing about this stuff so I'm going to. And so I ended up building this little site and I wrote like a lot of a lot about the mindset a lot about like the deeper more psychological elements of the craft of cinematography and editing and all that. And over time it just culminated in a in this online world that felt completely different from everything else that's around it and that's something that I've continued to try to do with everything else that I'm doing like ungated now is meant to be an oasis for people who are really, really tired and burned out by what I call the online marketing industrial complex, which I love that is a great great term. A lot of loud people making a lot of very sexy promises, right, that having bought into all those promises for years, having been completely burned by them. And realize that they don't align with my values like I just I drew that line. But now it's now yeah now ungated is meant to be an oasis that gives people permission to operate outside of that marketing industrial complex to follow their values to really do the work that nobody else but them could do to market in a way that feels good like all these things that are sort of like top line for me but I want to always protect and preserve that that oasis feeling that somebody feels genuinely safe and nurtured and supportive when they're in my little world. So good. Now, it's so interesting because I, like I said, we've been on the same journey, you know, because I too. When I started creating content, I was very much like, my God, I so disagree with so much of what's happening in my industry. I need to talk about that. And so I started talking about that and I started saying to everyone's relief, you don't have to do those things anymore. I think we try something more authentic instead and blah blah blah and not just the rest of history but but it's I think, I think we maybe both stumbled on this idea and that would like we did. What what what advice I guess if you were to give advice to somebody who is saying, Well, I feel like I'm quote unquote just another life coach, or I'm just another, you know, I don't know holistic healer. I'm not going to create an oasis, like especially, you know, good example like what whether you tell my life coach or holistic healer or whatever it's like, it's like, I'm already in an industry where people care so much about their people. It's like, it's not like caring more is going to be the way to go because I'll be burning myself out if I care more than I mean people already bend over backwards, you know, in my industry. So, what would you say, what would you say to that like how do you create the difference and oasis, you know, that kind of situation. Yeah, it's interesting so I, I come back to this idea of 1000 true fans. A lot it's, it's sort of like the guiding heuristic for a lot of what I guess. And the beautiful thing about that that number which is arbitrary like it could be 102 fans it could be 10,000 whatever. It's a tiny number, like nobody has to win the entirety of whatever market they're in, like what you know the life coaching market or the holistic healing market millions of potential clients. Yeah, all you like all you have to do is resonate with those handful of people that you are that are that resonate with your, your vibe for lack of a better way of putting it, who see the world you do who see the industry the, the set of problems that you see the way you do so I have this this framework that I call fascination stacking that I'm still fleshing out a little bit that just in terms of how I talk about it but the way I think about this is that a fascination is a point of emotional resonance it's a singular idea topic, something about you your story something that resonates with both yourself and the people that you serve the market that you're in a fascination stack is basically a tapestry of all of these little emotionally resonant ideas that you weave together over time. And so I don't I don't know how familiar like how much you were into you or the people you serve her into like positioning and differentiation and personal branding. But what I found is that a lot of those, a lot of those business tools and processes are extraordinarily top down, like positioning. The big idea generally is like you have to have like one big thing that differentiates you from the rest of your market and create literally a little blue ocean and like whatever. And that that puts an extraordinary amount of pressure on themselves to find that one big thing and most people don't have one big thing that will meaningfully differentiate them from everybody else and especially like these really crowded spaces like life coaching right. But we all have dozens of little things we all have tiny little perspective shifts that are different from everything else that's in our space that cumulatively added up. Make us different will make our work feel different when the right people encounter it those 1000 people those 2000 those 500 people in this true fan model. And that's the, that's the idea right is is you can build this this bottom up. I don't I don't know like that see that's the thing is like I don't know that personal brand is the right word I don't know that that sense of differentiation is the right word you know what what phrase I use I use energy signature. I know I'm sure I didn't come up with that phrase I'm sure I probably saw it somewhere, maybe even subconsciously, but I just started to say, people resonate with your true fans resonate with your energy signature and the people go what, what does that mean I say, I don't know, but it encompasses everything from how you talk, how you, how you, how you look, how you write the stuff you write the colors you use. I mean everything it's all kind of needs someone to say well that's personal brand like a fine you could use that term if you want, but like there's something on that you know, but it's and also includes I would say it also includes even like if you believe in this stuff, astrological compatibility, or something like that or even like soul group, you know, alignment or whatever whatever you know and I think that the 1000 true fans are 10 or 100 or 10,000 is something like it's meant to be. Yeah, if you if you but of course you you you you pair it with your own efforts to find them. It's like, yeah, we were all we were all we were all placed here on different parts sides different at parts of the planet, and it was our adventure to find each other. My, the rallying cry for literally everything I do now is find the others, like I used to be, I used to be a find your niche guy before I don't know I have a whole very complicated history with the word niche, mostly because Me too, me too. Well that's the thing is like, I have a very clear definition of what it means my head, but for me it's just like a very specific sub market subculture like it's a group of people who congregate around something shared identity shared pain. A lot of people when they hear like find your niche they hear build a personal brand do your positioning, choose a topic that you talk about like there's there's a rest of your life. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it creates so much so much this is neither here nor there. The thing though is that like finding a niche is very top down. Like you go. It's it's top down and outside in. It's going out into the market and like finding a little like subsection of it and like hoping that it'll work out. Whereas finding the others is is inside out and bottom up like finding the others is about understanding yourself so that you can like look for your reflection in the world you can go find your people. And, like, it all ties together right with the like the fascination stack thing like it's it's all the same thing is just understanding yourself so that you can find those handful of people who truly dig your vibe. Yes, yes. It's interesting. And one of the common ways to do marketing online is SEO research and optimization and keyword research, like you're laughing because and I laugh to because that how how much more outside in can you get than that it's like, let's find out what the masses are searching what's the highest volume keyword that's the least competitive. And now you got to fit yourself into that shape. What is your what are your thoughts on this SEO stuff I have. I have a lot of I have a whole history with SEO, but you just you just like like this idea of fitting your like this is another one of those binaries I'm playing with now is this idea of being a contortionist versus an economist. And when I was when I was doing the top down outside in thing. I was always contorting myself to fit somebody else's definition like to fit within somebody else's definition of success to build businesses that looked like what I thought other people wanted. To serve to, I don't know, to serve a market that wasn't really aligned with me anymore because like I eventually kind of grew out of my, my sense of, of being a filmmaker, but just through sheer like inertia like I stayed there far far longer than I thought I should always sort of contorting myself. The expansionist on the other hand is about starting from the assumption that you are a complex multifaceted human being who's always growing and and evolving. And making that the, the expectation for how you move through the world both with yourself and with your audience, because like I know so many creators who get who start off from a place of like being really niche down and then loving it and then finding success with a certain type of content or certain type of product. And then more and more people show up in their world sort of expecting, expecting that same thing, even though emotionally the creator has moved on they're not excited by it doesn't make them feel alive anymore. Yeah, yeah. And it leads, it leads to people feeling really, really sort of burned out and trapped by these these businesses they've built and that's why I don't know like that's why I'm at this place where I'm really open about the fact that the business that exists now is not always going to be because it's not always going to exist in this form. Yeah. That I'm, I'm going to evolve I'm going to keep following my curiosity and that's the expectation that I set with my audience. Right. Knowing that as I evolve in new directions I'll pick up new people and some people will probably fall off and that's that's okay but yeah but ultimately the goal for me is to to love what I'm doing every day, not just today but 10 years from now and that is going to look different than it does from from right now. Yeah. So that doesn't answer the question about SEO but no, I think it's another one of my, it is my favorite little binaries. It's, it's beautiful man. I want to just I encourage everyone to, I mean I haven't, I haven't. I've only read a few of your articles thus far but every every single one I'm like, this is beautiful. It's elegantly stated and it's just, it's fascinating. There's fascination there. So, I do encourage everyone to read. And also, I encourage everyone to check out your membership, which both your blog and your membership will be linked below. But the website is ungated.media the extension is not it's not calm it's not media so ungated.media so anyway your membership is really, really cool because it's sort of like your your HQ for your true fans. You know, and and I, you know, so, so here's the thing. I have now it's you have a pay what you want, pay what you can pay what you want model for your membership. I have usually disliked pay what you want pay what you can, but somehow the way you're doing it is playful enough to make it enjoyable. So I want to I want to check that out too. I want to, I know we have a we have a hard out but I want to hear more about why you think it felt that way compared to others because I really really. Yeah, I mean, because with others I felt like I was like, I don't want to disappoint that person by paying too little. And I also want to don't feel like a sucker by paying too much. But the way you've placed it, it's like, how much would I love to give and I know it doesn't matter how much I give, you know, it's I'm in. It's, yeah, it's just something different about it. Anyway, so folks check it out. It made me really happy because like, yeah, I like I'm always thinking about how to how to make things feel good and how to communicate. Yeah, like, friendly, friendly no pressure. I don't know and it's not even sales right right invitation. But yeah, it's creating a vibe like everything is about creating a vibe. Yeah. Yeah, and I don't know that I always nail it as much. No, of course, of course, and we can always keep finding what's most authentic and true and and and like good, like you said good feeling between us and that true fans, you know. So, thank you. Thanks for the work you do. And of course, this is one of many conversations I'm sure. And folks, this is just an introduction, you know to Rob's work so be sure to click below click the links and you'll you'll see why, why I'm a true fan as well. Thank you so much George. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. And until next time.