 We are rolling. So whenever you're ready. Hello, this is James and I'm Alyssa and we are here with Chris Nietzsche as a part of the University Cincinnati history three sat three thousand ninety-seven honor seminar title barricade legacies and the date is February 14th 2018 and the time is Oh So the interview is taking place at Grace's home. Thank you for being here with us today, Grace Yeah, I guess we'll get right into the questions My first one for you is have you always seen yourself going to college and what made you want to go? Oh I think my parents instilled that in me when I was very small Then I would go to college and it was a given Never that I would go. Yes What I would do would be Entirely left up to me But I was so involved as a child and at a young age in art That I knew it would be something in the art field Yeah Obviously kind of along with that what made you want to go to Paris to continue your education Well, it was a choice between Going to Paris or maybe going for a master's degree at the time and I decided I would Do better by going to Paris and then I put the master's off and tell after I came back and started teaching and then I got but Paris was a High point. I think of my education I was exposed to at that time really the center of fashion of the world and I was accepted into a school that was very well known throughout the world For the education my teacher one of my teachers was the teacher for Yves Saint-Laurent. I But so it was an excellent experience and further experience was Working for Christian Dior within and all of this I would say it was very difficult It was not easy. I mean the French are very rigorous in their training and You have to do everything exactly as they say you don't have So, but it was a fantastic experience The whole thing school that they educated me well One year and at the end of that year I had to take a week of Test and exams And then I I wanted to work for a designer called Givenchy, but My teacher mistakenly told me to take my portfolio because I drew well Be it mistake, which she should have know because The woman that I interviewed with the moment she saw the portfolio. She said I can't put you in a work room if you control Because they were so hyped up that you were going to copy and send it to the United States so On my way home. I just decided to walk into Christian Dior and apply there I guess one with that what kind of work were you doing later in college in? College I was giving the co-op program. Yeah, I was in the co-op program and I That was one of I would say a wonderful mentor That I had on my co-op job. It was a local manufacturer really pretty moderate to lower price garments, but I had a fantastic pattern-making Designer that I worked for and All I would do would be ask him questions He would encourage me and he taught me so much and during my lunch hour The seamstresses would teach me how to work a power machine and do piecework like manufacturing. So it was great experience In college My teacher when I began was Mary light Meyer Who later became the curator of costume and textiles at Cincinnati Art Museum? she Was very fine person and all through my life. She would contact me but in design She wasn't Really technically trained, but she was a historian and from that standpoint she taught you a lot about history and fashion and things like that, but the co-op program Really was a Great education to me Did I hope you Sorry, did you pay through college or do you have a scholarship? I Didn't have a scholarship. I was paid, of course, they were paying but My parents paid my tuition I Had a wonderful grandmother Who for various and sundry reasons? Put my name on the property she owned when she died and The house we lived in building downtown and center was Money that I used to go to France It was a great gift And I think about that now with my grandchildren the two oldest ones. I've given Certain stock that I'm betting on the day Facebook went on the market I bought Facebook the oldest one has faced but then When I heard first heard about it Baba, I Bought Alibaba for the second one So that I've been lucky on both cases, but I think that kind of a gift and it's for their education You have to So you were talking a little bit about your time in the fashion industry What made you go back to teaching I First as I said in New York, I did this Shakespeare in the park and then I was at sex Fifth Avenue and I Was just about a year and a half I guess I spent New York and I had been in New York the summer working for some publicity pattern company before I went to Paris so I was very familiar with it and they called me and At UC and they had two positions for the department head and another position and I couldn't quite decide and and I talked to a friend of my mother's Who said to me? I think this was and I always remember it when You teach Many doors will open to you that would not otherwise be open You can go into any top designer anywhere in the world Ask questions they will take you through because they intend for you to give it to somebody else the information You know you can travel All over the world and I thought hey that sounds pretty good. So that's why I did it so How do you feel that your time working in the industry affected your teaching? I think I think it was very good. I think I Kept learning all the time even when I when I started teaching I was also There was a store here much like sex called getting Jenny and I was the artist For getting Jenny that came out in the paper. So a couple of years there. I wasn't married. I was doing both but and I Felt all long you have to constantly learn as a teacher Constantly so my time in industry. I sort of have different experiences and From time to time I go back to those experiences and constantly learn and I think that's important for students they They were great. They were very absorbent Always interested in what you're doing and they still contact me today. Yeah so did you think that Did a lot of the work you did in the fashion industry like inform what you taught your students from experience. Yes I mentioned the draping before The cutting experience in France was very specialized and No one else actually made patterns that way Most manufacturers here use flat pattern method When I taught in China Chinese said to me in the conversation Talking. Oh, do you know how to take fabric and cut it on the form? I said, oh, yeah, I mean they came every night to learn every night. They wanted to know Japanese do all flat pattern So when I taught in Japan, it was the same thing You know, how do you do this? What do you look for? So? What I learned there The drawing not so important, but the cutting that was very Important you learn about the body how the body moves So you have to think of that as you're allowing for excess fabric as you're cutting a design What was your what when that while you see what was your path to becoming a tenure professor like? First easy, you know, but my last appointment Was difficult. I put three volumes together It just you know, but each promotion I started out as instructor They had instructor at that time, so I was promoted four times I Wish in those days they have given you a mentor from another college like they're doing now They will give new faculty mentors that I was fortunate that I didn't know a few people who gave me advice as When and you can go up for tenure And when you should You can go up sometimes a little before but Maybe you should hang back They would teach me about that what you really want in your VT But if you did not have somebody to mentor It was not a lot of times it really didn't you didn't get it We had an excellent faculty member who Didn't get it and mostly I'm sorry to say the Dean at the time Had to cut money and they just didn't approve So she left who's the Dean at that time? Berencind Where how long? Berencind has a long reputation Being probably the Dean throughout the University in history that only spent I Don't know some minimal amount of time in his office. He was always conducting some tour through Europe for somebody and The secretary at that time ran the college And anyone will tell you it's part of the history Yeah Was there a difference for getting tenure between a male and female? Oh, yeah back then yes It was a big difference in Salary I think if I knew then But I know now I would never have gone in as instructor and never I Would always have gone in this system professor with the amount of Experience that I had Which was as I mentioned much earlier to you My department the person the other person that they hired us the department head Had far less experience that she was quite a few years older and Not that she did a fine job as a department head. She really did I think it was an area she was good And building a department that I Should have gone You don't know that you think well I'll go I'll do a good job Over time what factors have made that a consistently well recognized design program I Think Department heads and Administration has really built the college I think they have also had like in the school of design in general in industrial graphics and fashion some excellent teachers that have had experience in the industry and Continuously develop themselves to develop the students. I think that's a big factor. I think sometimes departments have been extremely Stressed in terms of not enough faculty and our department had a history of hiring a lot of Agile which Was good in one way and that those people Brought a lot of knowledge from outside in however, they didn't have the responsibility that faculty did and It became a lot. I know that another thing is a lot of other colleges did not Have the same requirements on the faculty as they did That we work We because it was studio. We worked 18 hours a week With in the classroom You had I advised a senior class As well and I have graduate students to advise So there was very little time to develop yourself As time has gone on I think there is more opportunities they have hired more full-time people and the faculty are able to do Research in different areas in 1990. I started Clothing for people at wheelchairs And I did that for ten years Which was extremely worthwhile I actually Another professor kind of picked it up when I retired she I helped her with class or two Where students were involved? and We gave a paper in 2009 At the Royal College of Art in London, which I thought was quite Nice to go there the whole conference there was on products for people with disabilities so How's the co-op program developed over the years It's great. I think the only problem is We never have enough jobs That's a problem. The student enrollment has grown and grown and grown but There doesn't seem always to be enough jobs and students Sometimes now are going out and getting jobs themselves Some turn out well and some do not but that's the biggest thing that I see but the benefit that the student gets is Tremendous a good co-op job even not so good co-op job really teaches you not only the Professional side of what you're doing, but also how you have to get along with people That's a very big thing that you may be very talented but quite often when you just come out of college and you step into a job If you are Extremely good at what you step into there may be somebody there this has been there 15 years and Started at a much lower salary. This is always a problem and sometimes resent But you have to deal with those things on the co-op and you see that happening and You know how to approach it. We also have I assume you do an engineering. We have a course the freshman year and Really to kind of prepare you and I hope I don't I've never said in on the course. I Don't know It's something that You have found on your co-op job We find it all the time. There's a little bit of envy Were there any changes you want to make within your department or college and how did you go about making those changes now? I mean our past Well, that was a long Yes, I was The first person to apply and yet maternity leave It was no maternity leave my second son was born in 1976 and My first son I did not have an eternity leave. I had five weeks off and She said I'll take your class my department head for the five weeks and then you have to be back here So that was yeah, I also my oldest son had the tooth teeth problems wasn't an over bite it was an under bite and At any rate or you did not have faculty did not have orthodontistry at that time and So he was the first he had to have a new apparatus that someone had just developed So it was in the paper. So I made a big case for this so Then we began to get dental care for children. So there was I was one of I would say eight or ten Black faculty that first began the black faculty association at UC There was just a handful of people that came together. I was the first Black woman in the college there's only been two cents in 35 years That's a part that has always been a problem in DAP and CCM is much better now DAP, I don't think a moment of minority students has Increased any there's always been a number nor faculty You think specifically within the DAP college that have improved it really hasn't improved I Brought out the book that they have put out. It's down there on the table that Shows the develop what will tell you the development of the program of the college a J. Chatterjee had them put together the history of the college after that building was built and there's a picture of the millennium and I opened that picture There are students and faculty There's not one black person here And I thought hmm there is someone from Korea and the Dean was Indian and the Dean had I Would tell you a rough time on and off because he was Indian and he would tell you that So but yeah, so you said you had to like Kind of advocate for your son's teeth Were you doing a lot of like pushback or like to get these things? No, I just I think I knew a lot of people in the university. I Would write a letter. I knew who to write to that's another thing you don't know who to go to But I usually know who to go to and I Think it was a blessing when we got a union Because that helped a lot because that was during the period of time. There was not a union when I started teaching and That helped a great deal on things like this like majority In the contract When was that oh I Know what about the teeth was But I do not know Students changed over the years. Oh, yes They seem to know far more about the world and what is going on in the world they are I think very knowledgeable about Subjects that they study. I think they're highly influenced on the political time. I was there before the Korean War and then I saw students change a seriousness come over them and at some periods of time they seem to be more fun-loving and Outgoing and then sometimes they're very serious and that it's all about the time That we're going through it does affect them. I think students today Seem to be I'm not in contact with them every day like I was before but they seem to be very involved with the world They're knowledgeable Far more knowledgeable about the world. That's very good. Oh Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, I was just gonna say like you said there was a lot of You were there during the time when there was a lot of serious things going on How did you see the students like react to that like their activism and things like that? Well at different times. It was a riot. I think in the class the first day somebody mentioned that and Okay, and it was basically students who were protesting various things One faculty member in CCM who did not get hired. She was internationally famous She was a black female and That seemed to be part of it, but then I think there were problems in other colleges They closed the university So there was activism How focused was the university on interacting with the community around it? Has it changed over the years? It's changed. Yes When I started out it was a city known as a city university It became When it became affiliated with the state, I think state politics comes into it the governor as you know appoints the new members to the board of trustees and so if the governor is Republican he's gonna appoint another Republican and That's the way it goes. So I find that that sounds simple at the top but the politics I think of the state tends to Filter down to the universe to the colleges and to the University where as before just from my brief knowledge is there was more I know interaction between why college and the community and CCM and the community in terms of the arts there was far more than I think then there is now at one time the beginning of DAPH was Connected with the art museum of the art Academy It was part of them first. It was called the MacMicka and school of drawing and design and Then it succeeded, but then people thought it should be moved. So it was in so therefore you had that beginning of Community involvement with the museum. So then it came back to the University and the College of Engineering and then Then it separated into DAA it was called first and then to DAP but It seems to be from my perspective more involved with the community Before then it is now. I don't know how many projects are being done with the community right now There were a lot at the time and say 60s and 70s It was a well-known planner here for Roos he Unfortunately died in an early age of cancer, but he was very strong on his belief of community involvement He designed playgrounds For sands elementary he designed That's just one example So DAPH was involved. He's from the school planning What was the transition like from being a professor to the head of the department? Not a huge transition I had been there some time and My department had we were on a quarter system. So We taught seven out of eight quarters. So that means I taught every other summer that was built into it because of the co-op system and Every time my department head was off. I would step in If she took a sabbatical I stepped in so I was familiar with what to do How did your role change? More people Scheduling classes and a lot more people work and I told her at the very beginning I'm not really Ever after your job I'm not a paperwork person to begin with but I did it But then you know they changed from departments to schools and And basically having nine Departments in depth and then they changed it to four schools Changed the administration it took away a lot of their responsibilities A coordinator which they're called now it moved from from department head to chair to Of course as they did that was less responsibility and less money so the school director as We speak the new school director for the school of design actually has taken over as the coordinator for fashion. I hear It wasn't difficult, you know at the time that I did it And then the changes didn't bother me at all from chair to coordinator The only thing that really I think bothered me was when it changed and you had less responsibility hiring of New faculty should be I think you should be more involved Than it was the school director kind of took over and in Several cases they made very big blunders very big blunders The person was out of there before the year was over so there there really needs for Faculty to be directly involved in Hiring I mean they can see how that person fits of what that person's going to bring Did you have to apply or you chosen to become the new department head or how did that work? No, I you're asked by like school director would ask me Yeah, I went on sabbatical and when I came back He asked me, you know, did I want to do it? It had gone from chair to coordinator So but the school director would ask you okay? I Think about cover us a little bit, but what was the largest change you've seen at UC? the number of students The in fashion design is overwhelming As you know, I went to undergraduate school there And I think we may have had eight to ten people in the class The last two years there were 50 in a senior graduating class So it's gone and we turn. I'm sorry to say far too many people away I think I was thinking about this the other day that move that television show Project one way More people became interested in fashion. It really had an effect that we turn away a lot of people and The people that are chosen Well selected to come are based on their GPAs Which we are not a portfolio school. You don't present a portfolio Which that to me I would prefer them reviewing the portfolio Because I've seen some people who are really dedicated Who Would do better academically If they were in something that they love they wouldn't know I think the opposite is true. The theory is well You have to make sure that they're not going to flunk out that freshman year just because they're talented artists But it also works that way So were you ever like involved in the admissions process? Oh sure sure At one time and I think sometimes they still are doing it If you saw a student and they came to you with a portfolio, although that wasn't part of the selection But didn't have the GPA You would ask them to apply to Arts and Science their freshman year and Take as many of the freshman courses in depth and Then make sure that you Have a very good GPA at the end of the year and transfer in I Saw several people do that and just to get in it really influenced their academic grades And they did very well It doesn't always work, but it can work so You did a lot at UC. Was there any time you thought about leaving or to do other work? I thought about going to another university when I was approached But I Felt my husband was an administrator at UC and I had two boys It wasn't a good time to uproot this family Not at all So I stayed So okay, sorry So did your family influence your decision a lot to stay or do you things like within the university? Yes My family have always been extremely supportive. I Don't think a lot that has spoons food just like our wife go to China for six weeks and take care of two boys Always have been supportive I went to India for six weeks Twice I Once before I retired months after I retired in 2004 I went to India again the same school so I Went to Japan That was I went to Japan twice, but it was shorter period one week in them. I went back and for another week But India wanted me to come and stay two years Which the last time I was there I had already Retired I retired Early a few years early because Unfortunately, I had cancer And I had recovered and I was fine and then I went to India for six weeks, but I asked them Did they have a doctor? there On campus, and they said it becomes once a week If you knew India But I loved it. I loved India Wonderful, but You have to be prepped before you go and this is what you can expect and and then you deal with some of the hardships, but It was a wonderful learning experience Wonderful Do you think earlier in your career you would have probably entertained staying there? India, yeah, if I was single and didn't have a family. Oh, yeah Yeah So I think you talked more about this earlier, but what kind of other struggles did you see? Other women feast facing had viewers. Well, the salary was a big factor Really getting and involved and making decisions in your college. I think a lot of it early on was men middle-aged men and That was that way a long long time They just didn't seem to have the same respect for someone's opinion and In terms of a meeting that you would go to where decisions were being made I Set on the committee. I was selected to sit on the committee for the school of design building the Isomand building Anyway for seven years I had to deal with it. I Was on there and the librarian was on there now It was a hard way to go Isomand and his assistant would come from New York and Spread out a drawing of the spine of the college and how he was getting to these wonderful things Then he would just gradually it would just gradually change each time He was definitely a person who had a huge ego He wanted to be filmed Every time he came and spoke to anyone He had to be on film anyone see the film if he was too fat or not it was but Good example after maybe about six years. He showed a plan and He went through first floor second floor every floor and I said This fashion design department Next to it was the college kitchen. I Said does this mean the kitchen this cooking and the sewing are together Just I was just so angry Yeah, that was a mental state of Isomand, right There's just shove it in there. She said the smell would be in the fabric. It would just be horrible Next time he came Went through the whole thing again. I mean this took a couple of hours at least and I said, I'm sorry. I Won't see the fashion design department at all at all. It wasn't there and The assistant said We were up until about two o'clock this morning getting it ready for today and Don't worry. We'll find a place for you And I thought this sounds just like a student who stays up all night for critique Yeah, but now this was in the latter part, you know, that building of my career All right So I'm sure architecture went down first But in the end Yeah, one of the assistant Dean at the time spoke up for me and said well last time Yeah, put him next to the college kitchen. I mean so we got the best Place in the whole building. I don't know if you've seen the fashion overlooks the park We got the best in the end, but it was a fight and that that wasn't that long ago you know well it is now but Yeah, you said that like racially your department wasn't very diverse at all was My department was better than others. The college was not good College was not good. Um, I know they would Take a sort of a census every so often how many Minorities were in the college in different departments and I remember once it came out We had eight in the program More than all the rest of the college put together It was a problem also with hiring faculty I didn't think They either mentored the faculty when they During 35 years that I was there. There were two women hired in architecture One stayed about two years. The other one may be five years and There were many problems for them Or one male Was in industrial design a few years and he was getting along fine, but I mean he told me just He had to go back to California. He just It really wasn't very good for him so but When they I do know for a fact they would offer people jobs But they would offer them sometimes less than their current current salary or Their current position and their current position And so usually people aren't going to come for less And I think With students Students are one of the reasons why they're not that many minorities in terms of students in the program parents are Really desired that they're when they send their Children to school. They want them to have professions that will be lucrative that appear That is going to be highly professional. And if you say fashion design or graphic design They often do not see that in the same light as engineering, you know Engineering has more cloud in many cases than an industrial designer And I know a man at one time that was recruiting from the university that would go to black churches and When there would be meetings and talk to parents About that But because he felt that it really started with the parents You know influence and I think that's very very true So You said you had friends in like other colleges and things like that Do you think their experience being a woman a woman at the university was the same as yours or different, you know Oh, one of my friends is Barbara Ramneusack Was at the end of the table and she talks often She became the head of history and she talks often about I know we would go to New York There were before of us who would go to New York and we still do And she would say I would say oh by that Barbara we would go shopping. Oh This is too wild if I walked into a meeting with all those men, you know, she would be real conscious on What she wore to a meeting, of course, I wouldn't and I couldn't understand it, but They do have And that she's one who will tell you when they hire someone new Why the struggle she had way back when and the small salary that she had and So it has improved a great deal, but they many women had problems, I mean So and that was in all the colleges everything Were there any like policies that like kind of helped improve? I think the again establishing the union was a place that you could go and asked What could be done about the situation? I Had an incident and I went to the union Didn't go anywhere, but it didn't make any difference, but The other person was called to task about the situation and then the dean became involved and Having that union there was a very good thing for a woman What was that you said? I would say about 1990s maybe They're human nature is Especially I feel there At you see and I'm sure it's other places as well Is there's a lot of competition for grants for money for that was the merit system? And I think it human nature is possibly to envy somebody for something And I think I found that a lot Sometimes me faculty I had a old it wasn't new and Mercedes And I got comments This is anything you know were there more male faculty compared to women in your department Not in my department, but in the college In my department But in the rest of the college Architecture was oh my goodness If you were a woman and you step foot in the This black woman that was hired the first one and an architecture Faculty member said that she came in well, can you go get me a cup of coffee? Yes, that's why I think she only stayed about a year Do you think they like handled that at all or just kind of like that was the norm that wasn't handled? Industrial design was in my Area was also one person there was faculty member in there who was noted For being extremely chauvinistic Students and other faculty Maybe just to like Wrap up in a sense, but do you have any like memorable relationships with colleagues or students that you want to discuss more about? Oh, yes, I have a lot of Relationships as I told you when I met me last week the students are the best part of it I Wouldn't have stayed 35 years if it wasn't the students are wonderful being creative minds who are really Interested in what they're doing have a desire to succeed and what they're doing It's just wonderful to work with creative minds When I go to New York every time I go to New York They will come out and we will go to dinner every time At one point I sit to my husband when I went to Japan first time I went to Japan I Said to know I'm going halfway around the world And when I get there Three former students were there to meet me. That's a wonderful Really wonderful. Yeah One was Working and gonna be there that week another one lived in the Philippines and her she and her husband manufactured Clothing for children and she came and then the other one went lived in Japan, and I was going to go that we all met in Hong Kong and I was going to go back to Japan with her So it's a great feeling And I hear from Do you have any reservations about doing this interview with us? No, I'm just I Don't think I'm the best speaker in the world and afterwards. I always think What made you decide to do this with us I Thought it would be interesting Barbara asked me What is your What's the thing to risk part of accomplishing dinner time at UC? Well, I started Several programs of which Students won big awards and developed. I started the network program Which I wrote ice heard of a small knit machine So I Got one and pulled around with that then I wrote a program. So I took a leave of absence and went to conferences and wrote proposal and got a grant to get Machines in the department and started there. They do wonderful things. I have many many students who went into One's at Nike and I just all over that I'm very proud of most people know that I did a leather design clothing design and I I discovered a place here in Norwood that had a lot of leather and they sold To us you company and so I would go over there and for like No many at all students could buy leather and it was Wonderful everyone got excited because it's the only material that has a smell You know, it's very sensuous leather is so I started we started making leather clothing we won they won There's a big show in New York every year by the leather industries of America From 1990 for 10 years the students took first second third my students won it every year so I was selected by the leather industries of America to represent them in Bologna Italy one year. So I went there and gave a paper So those two things in terms of the edgy but the accomplishments the students did in developing You know with new materials And I think that's a key right now because materials and new materials and experimentation That's pretty where it is So I'm very proud of that. Yeah, that was our last question for you But if you have any other final thoughts you want to share with us It's going to be one of those things. I wish I had said that Now I think all in all I chose the right thing too I would never have gotten all that I got out of teaching experiences were terrific New York is interesting but It's a place that gets very old Quickly and you see the writing on the wall and once asked at SACs How did miss is how did Sophie get her job? That was the designer Supposedly and they said oh Sophie's Mrs. Gimble. She married the owner of the store so it Was it's difficult life in New York There is even if that highly successful. I have some highly successful students in New York. It's very difficult Thank you for coming