 Good evening, everyone. I am deeply honored and greatly overjoyed, I should say, welcoming you on behalf of DMTV to this latest installment intended to offer escape and hope in this time of confinement and frustration. When I sit on a tiny island called Egyne outside, very, very close to the coast of Attica, the coronavirus seems to have had three effects on our political reality, just three very brief comments on the effects of this virus on our world. Firstly, it has magnified magnificently the never-ending crisis that begun in 2008 and which has been morphing in all sorts of different sub-crisis. Secondly, it has proved that the government can act and must act massively in the common interest against everything that touch on Reagan have been saying since the late 1970s. Thirdly, this crisis caused by a silly, mindless piece of RNA, this virus, temporarily revealed the true nature of politics, which is the question of who has the power to do what to whom. The question for our evening tonight is very simple. How will this change society? And is there a realistic utopian vision, a realistic utopian vision of society after the virus that can help avert the nastier of scenario of what might happen? In grappling with this question, I cannot imagine a better DMTV guest than an artist whom I worshipped as a teenager since the early 1970s and whom I have been honored and so pleased of getting to know much earlier in my life in the last five years. Brian Eno, the co-founder of DM25, you know, I get a lot of pleasure by announcing Brian Eno as the co-founder of DM25, who's here with us tonight, with me receding as I'm not used to be doing, as this is not my occasion, this is Brian's occasion. So Brian, where is the hole in which you are hiding from the virus? Where are we speaking to you from? I'm in Norfolk in the east of England, probably the part of England closest to the continent, actually, and near where you used to teach, I think. You were in Norwich, weren't you? I was. I thought you were in Suffolk. No, I'm just across the river. Just across the river? So that's very, very close. I used to ride my motorcycle from Norwich to Ipswich. Yeah, yeah. Okay, well, you probably passed through this village on the way. Well, I'm looking forward to coming back to it. So share your thoughts with us before I convey to you the questions coming from our audience. What would a vision of the post virus world look like, one which is worth fighting for? Well, I think we can see the beginnings of it. One thing that I've noticed in the last few weeks is that there's been a sense of relief among people that they could suddenly be nice to each other again. But any of you who know English politics for the last five years will realize it's been very, very bitter, very divisive, a kind of anger stoked by the media, particularly the type of media who support our present government. And for five years, people have pretty much been at each other's throats. And it seems to me this upsurge of sort of solidarity of some kind that's happened in the last few weeks is not only the sense that we're all in this together but also the sense of, hey, you know, we can actually be nice to each other as well, we can be kind to each other, we can help each other. And I have to say the mood of people is, of course, they're frightened of the virus but at the same time they're sort of delighted to be able to like each other again. So that is the beginning of something I think. And it's something I hope we won't forget. It's as if we're rediscovering certain things that had been forgotten for quite a long time, we're rediscovering that we like each other's company, we're rediscovering that we can do creative things together, that we don't have to be dependent on having our entertainment supplied to us all the time. We're rediscovering that certain parts of the community are very, very important. You know, when they came up with this distinction a few weeks ago of essential workers. Okay, those are the ones who are allowed to continue living life outside. It was interesting that nearly everyone that was classified as an essential worker is one of the lowest paid people in our society. The essential workers are the people we don't pay very much, essentially. My daughter is, my middle daughter is a doctor, so she's a junior doctor, so she's in that category. But this wonderful sight of people coming out on Thursday nights and applauding the National Health Service and applauding the people who work for it, and not only NHS but all sorts of carers. And this is sort of a recognition that carers in the broadest sense of that, are the people who keep society running. It doesn't matter a fig if all the bankers disappear for a year. Nobody would notice the difference. If the nurses disappear for a year, we would notice that the following day. You know, so there's a sort of re-evaluation among people of who we are and what we're worth. And of course the nice part of that news is that the Health Service will be safe for a few more years. It'll be a bit harder for them to set it off to big American corporations as they were planning to do. So I'm hoping that there will be a relief on that. But what I think we are facing now is a sort of interesting moment where we, first of all, are designing the future of civilization. The future of civilization right now. The things that we do in the next few months will persist for a very, very, very long time. All the kinds of emergency powers that get put into place now will not be easy to get rid of. You can see this if you travel in any airport, the emergency powers that the residual powers from 9-11 are still in place. And I don't think they'll ever be removed. And so we have to be very careful that we don't end up in that society, a society that is dominated by the sense of fear and emergency and threat. And so I'll talk about that for a little bit. But what we risk now, I'll go back to what we could aim for later, but what we risk right now is the kind of voluntary surrender of power and control to the state. The most efficient way to concentrate power is to encourage a situation in which people are willing to surrender it. And this is a perfect example of that. You know, I was talking to a friend who I would regard as a very sort of liberal anarchist friend. And we were talking about what was happening in China in terms of surveillance and so on. And he says, Well, bring it on. That's what I'd like here now. And, okay, I can understand in the heat of the situation that you might think that, but we have to be very careful with that kind of sense. Because I think that there's always a sort of dialogue between security on the one hand and freedom on the other. And the more security you have, the more freedom you sacrifice in general, and it's very difficult to go to step back from a situation of security to say, Actually, we don't want that much security any longer. We're prepared to live a slightly more risky life for the sake of having some liberty. That is, I think is always very hard for people to do. And I think historically it very rarely happens. It happens with individuals, but not generally with societies. Generally, we civilization keeps trying to, of course, gather more security of all sorts of things. Now, the people who would like to control power understand the value of an emergency situation like this. For instance, just think of after 911 what happened when suddenly there was a huge industry built up called Homeland Security. And Homeland Security has had hundreds of billions of dollars spent on it. Nobody really knows what for. But it's a self sustaining feedback loop, you know. And it applies to this wonderful phrase of the 21st century for security reasons. That's the way you are told that there are certain things you can't do. You can't do them for security reasons. And that is a kind of unquestionable phrase. It doesn't even need to be explained. You're just told for security reasons you cannot do this. It's a way that the powerful justify their protect their actions, basically. What we are now, I think is we are sort of going on to a war footing. And this is the best in mind where one way for democratic governments so called democratic governments to achieve consensus is to create a strong enough for people to all want to agree to all want to do the same thing not to want to complicate the business of government. And war is a very good way of doing that. So we can see in the past how often it's been used as a resort for rulers who feel that they're threatened. They imagine or generate or create or promise a war, and, and suddenly the population is unified. Or, in fact, it becomes possible to enforce unity. But to have a war you need an enemy. In the past, those have been other tribes or other races or other nations or other ideologies. Even recently, immigrants were the enemy. That's what gave us Brexit. But I think this is the first time in history that we've actually declared war on another organism. As you say, not even a very impressive piece of RNA, but it works because it gives you all the benefits of being at war. It enables you to constrain social freedoms and so on and so on. I understand fully the need for those constraints right now. I am worried and I think we have to be very careful to make sure that they don't fossilize in place and become the way the normal the way we live. So now to go to the more positive aspect of this, what kind of future could we imagine other than that rather dark one I just suggested as a possibility. What I'm really hoping is that the the skills that people are learning in these few months. Maybe it's going to be longer than a few months, the skills of sociability of being together and working with each other and getting around the huge gap left by conventional industry suddenly stopping. I hope that those skills will become part of the way that we build the future. Richard said that said something very, very nice in his talk last night on this channel. He said, solidarity is a craft. And I like the idea very much that it's something we work at something that we do together. Something that we have to practice and something that we have to refine not something that happens automatically. He also said them. I don't believe that solidarity is the product of rage. I think those are his words. And that also I think, yes, think about solidarity, not just as a as the result of anger anger is part of it. We need a bit of that, but we also need reflection and care and thinking thinking about each other and saying, what can we do together, what can we do together now that we could never do before. Because remember, we have lots and lots of new tools. We're using one of them now actually. And the fact that we can have conversations together. A thousand miles apart, and thousands of other people can witness them and in some sense be part of them. So, so there are new tools for the craft of solidarity. And I hope we'll use those. Speaking of solidarity, if I may interject just for one moment. I was touched by your mention of the recognition of essential workers. People like a comrade Slavoj Zizek on DMT the other day said something really pertinent he said, you know, those millionaires billionaires who isolate themselves on their yacht in the middle of the Atlantic, you know, they cannot isolate themselves under unless there is an army of aliens working for them, isolate themselves on the bloody yacht. Right. So there are essential workers and I remember when the M25 was putting together our European Green New Deal. We made a point of extending solidarity to what is now recognized as essential workers by making a distinction which progress. They often forgot to make between the innovators are essential, because they create tools like the ones that we use now to communicate. And they are, you know, those tools are the stuff of progress. There's no doubt about that. But we also made the point of honoring and referring to the maintainers to the ones who maintain all technologies like sewers, like national services, like social care, like, you know, providing food to elderly people at home. This is very low tech craft. This is the craft of solidarity as Richard was saying. Now we have an opportunity, you know, to highlight that which DM has been trying to do which is to say yes, we need innovation. We need to support innovators but we need to support even more of the maintainers. But my great worry, and this is my question to you, is this. The fascists are pretty good at looking the maintainers in the eye and saying, we are going to look after you. And we are going to make you proud again, saying Mussolini, Matteo Salvini, Donald Trump, they're very good at that. The progressives seems to me to have our work cut out for us, because the fascists are even better than we are. The people who are actually doing the solidarity to work on the ground, and giving them, in my view, a false sense of importance on the basis of hating others, demonizing the foreigner, the black, the Jew, the German, you know, the Palestinian, doesn't matter who it is, the other. So how do we navigate in the midst of this coronavirus, this terrain where the heart and soul of the maintainers is being contested by the Boris Johnson's, by the Kiriakos Mitzotakis' in my country, by the Golden Dawn, by the German, by the nationalist, internationalist. Well, I think this has become much clearer in England recently. Everybody knows that the NHS has been under attack for quite a long time. And suddenly, they're the heroes of the day, even to those politicians who've been responsible for attacking them. So I don't think there's too much ambiguity about it right here and now in England. We suddenly do realize who the essential workers are, and we realize who has been supporting them and who hasn't until now. Of course, the difficulty is that the fascists are always prepared to lie, and we aren't. And they'll just make it up and they'll rely on their control of the media to make people forget that they ever said what they said. I mean, the performance of Trump in the last few days has been astonishing where he's consistently said things like, I always knew this was a pandemic and I always knew this was, and apparently a lot of people believe him. It doesn't take very much research to see him saying exactly the opposite. So, but this is a, I think, as so much of what's going on at the moment, this is a sort of media problem that we still have, even though we're talking now on a new kind of medium, we still have in place a medium that creates the sort of atmosphere around things. So, you and I were both involved in, to some extent, in the Jeremy Corbyn campaign. And seeing what was the most naked exercise and propaganda I think that has ever happened in British history was really quite astonishing to see how carefully cultivated people's opinions were about Jeremy Corbyn. And I did a little bit of door stepping, you know, going around and knocking on people's doors and saying, will you vote Labour? And what so often happened was people would say, I'm not sure about that Jeremy Corbyn guy, you know, and you'd say, what's the problem exactly? There's just a feeling about him. And it was incredibly vague, but that's what mass media are very good at doing, creating vague feelings. It doesn't have to have any real underpinning to it. You can keep chipping away at all the stuff they put out and say, but that isn't true, and that isn't true, and that isn't true. But there's still the smoke, the smell is still around. What's that? Now, I've got a couple of questions from our audience, if I may. One is, I think this is a good question. Will this virus change the normal of the West? Or have we faced, or are we facing the end of normal? That's one question. And the second question is, well, start without one and then I'll come with you at the second one. I think we're facing the end of normal for a while, yes. I mean, when you suggested or told me the title for this, the future after the virus, I thought, I actually have no idea at all what the future is going to be like. I know what I hope for, and I know what I fear, but very likely the result is going to be a mixture of both of those and more, you know. I think the end of normal has already happened, actually. I don't think we're going to just get the industries working again and slip back to the nine to five jobs. There are going to be so many things changed. For instance, just as I say what we're doing now, how many business meetings are not going to happen as a result of this? So not going to happen because people think, you know what, I can do it on Zoom. It worked fine, or I can do it on whatever platform. So I'm not worried that people fall back to old habits in ways very quickly. It's a little like, you know, being stopped the motorway, you know, you're doing 120 miles an hour. So I used to get stopped because the 70 mile hour zone and, you know, you can find stuff for the next 20 miles you drive at 72 or 68. I think you don't get stopped another 20 minutes there you go back to where you were before. Is there no fear that, you know, once this bloody thing goes away? Yes, we are going to have much greater levels of poverty. The changes are going to bounce up immediately because, you know, so much money has been pumped into the financial sector by central banks that, you know, they will go through the roof and the Wall Street Journal and the Financial Times are going to be celebrating the immense recovery of capitalism, but of course, real level investment in quality jobs and in care jobs and so on will have plummeted, but who gives it that? And then it will go back to, isn't that in 2008, I have to tell you that I felt that that was the end of history, not the end of history, but the turning point. Because capitalism has never recovered since then. At least financialized, globalized capitalism has not recovered since then. And yet, even though it never recovered, and this is today, we have an amplification and acceleration of the same 2008 crisis, but nevertheless, you know, most of society was lulled in the same way that they internalized the critique of covering. I mean, there is no smoke without fire in this way that, you know, the crisis has been overcome, the system is resilient. Don't you feel that, you know, in three years' time, two years' time, five years' time, you know, this COVID-19 thing is going to be remembered more or less in the same way that 2008 was remembered. And then the same old establishment will be reviving the same old claptrap about, you know, the importance of having a budget surplus and fighting, you know, those who are constantly asking for the state to create money on behalf of the many. Yep, I think that's very possible. And I think that our mission is to make sure that that doesn't happen. That really is the mission, particularly of artists, I think. Artists are the people who, in a way, provide the sort of material for imagining different futures. That's one of the things you do with art. Art is a way of trying to experience what it would be like to live in a different world. And that world might be represented by something elaborate like a Charles Dickens novel or War and Peace, but it might be represented by something as simple as a pop record. It's all about what you do when you make art is you make something that gives you the chance to experience another set of values and relationships and so on. And we've really got to start working on this now. That's really got to be our mission, I think. I think we have a little window when people will still remember this period, possibly fondly in some ways, like British people still remember the Blitz as the most wonderful time of their lives. And why was it wonderful? It was wonderful because for the only time in their lives, probably, they felt unified, they felt together and they really belonged to something. And I think what matters to humans more than anything else, more than money, is a sense of belonging, a sense of being part of something. And people love that feeling, and they miss that feeling if they don't have it. And when they don't have it, they feel that by various false sorts of belonging, like owning stuff, having that red sports car. That's sort of, it's a surrogate for actually being part of something real and meaning. And I think for a little while, for the next maybe three, four or five years, people are going to remember this time. It's a spectacular difference in our lives. And what we have to keep telling is the story of what happened in this time that was special and unique and positive and wonderful. And I think a lot of artists will be working on that. You know, we know the bad side of the story. It's awful. People are dying. People are living in terrible situations because they have to stay in one small room with a large family, all of that. We know the bad side. We have to also try to remember that we can learn something from this. I feel what you're saying in my bones because, you know, I remember I grew up in a military leadership. You know, we were constantly in fear of the skilled police breaking down the door and abducting my dad, my mom, only because they did. It's not an ideal fear. It actually happened. The beauty of that awful military ironclad oppression was because you could recognize the bloody enemy. They wore a uniform or they looked like dogs and they would break into your home and take you away. One question we have from the audience is, which, you know, I know what the answer to that is, but nevertheless it's an important question to pose. Is this the end of neoliberalism? Because you see the problem with neoliberalism is that unlike a military dictatorship, unlike the blitz that you mentioned where you could see the stuchas, you could see the Luftwaffe, you know, you had traces in the middle of the night and you could see the bombs coming. You knew where the enemy was coming. The difference with neoliberalism is that no one is at fault because as Karl Marx explained beautifully, I mean, so vividly and poetically in this capital volume one, you can't blame a capitalist because the capitalist lives in fear. If he does not explain the workers, he will go bankrupt. If he goes bankrupt, he becomes like his workers. His life is finished. So he needs to squeeze the proletariat and then he needs to take every penny he makes out of them. And like, you know, a benedict of Scrooge, he needs to invest everything to live a miserable life, you know, except the bankers, of course. In other words, in neoliberalism, I experienced that in the Eurogroup, Brian, you know, I could see that if any of those ministers who were trying to destroy our people, if they were at all convinced by what I said and stated that they were convinced, they would lose their jobs immediately. It's like the up-to-date line that I was talking with people who are not being convinced. So nobody's at fault in the end, and this is the intense and just irreversible, to some extent, power of neoliberalism, that no one's at fault in the end. So do you think that COVID-19 is going to spell the end of neoliberalism? I just read an interesting essay by Douglas Rushkoff called Post-Human Utopia. Have you seen that? I don't know if it's a recent piece or not. It's called Post-Human Utopia. It's by Douglas Rushkoff. Yes, yes. And he describes going to a meeting. He was hired to talk to a meeting about the future, about what technologies will be around and so on. And he went to the meeting which paid him the equivalent of half his salary as a university lecturer for a year. So it was a very big sum of money. And there were only about six or seven people at the meeting and they were all very wealthy men. And what they really wanted to know was how do we escape? How do we get out of this situation? And they felt that the situation was already on a trajectory towards doom. There was no future. They weren't talking about coronavirus, by the way. It was before that. This was just the general notion of, you know, the future is a mess. How will we get out of it? How will we protect ourselves? There are the same people who own ranches with huge numbers of proletarian guards around them in Nevada and places like that. They're people who really don't see a future. Now, these are the wealthiest people in society. So it's interesting to me that they have given up trying to guide society in any way or to try to mold it. All they want is to protect their world, their power and their privilege. And the rest of us, we're going to burn in hell for all they care. So it's kind of encouraging to me that they've given up. That means that we can take over if we're lucky, if we're smart. We can't, after this crisis, go through a repeat of the 2008 scenario where nobody, you know, everything goes back to some kind of normal. We have to say, look, we've realized now that social services matter, care matters. Caring is what a society does for its inhabitants. And it needs to be paid for. So I think, I think this will be a very good time now to start saying tax havens. Let's get rid of. I think it would have a lot of popular support now. I'd go further than that if you may, if I may, you know, I'm in the process of writing my own utopia the moment I'm writing a book which I have to finish by May on what I would like the world to look like. I mean, the one thing I would ban is besides tax havens. Actually, I wouldn't even need to ban tax havens. I would ban share markets. Interesting. You know, when you when you enroll to college, art, art college, university, whatever, you get that library card. Yeah. Right. You can't sell it. Yeah, there's nothing you can do about it. You can't have it if you're not a student. You use it in order to give you certain privileges. I'd like to live in a world where, you know, you work for a corporation the moment you enter, you have one share like a library. You can't, you can't buy it. If you don't work in it, you can't have one. Yeah. But yeah, that's another question. Look, I like it. I like it. Let's, let's, I've written a whole book about it. It's coming out in September. So this was, you know, my pitch. Now, I've got a question here. Actually, I have two questions. Maybe I asked two questions, and then you answer them in whatever order you want. First question. I'm going to read it out for you. As an old admirer of Brian's work, I'd like him to say something about a new culture and art for the post capitalist apocalypse new world. That's the first question. The second question comes from stretch cohort, our comrade from the 25. And it says, our DMTV guests obviously touch their faces too often. Do I love voices. He said that we both do. I don't know. I didn't even notice it, but said, and someone asked whether Brian would create a similar ringtone like he did for windows for social distancing. Would Brian create a sound for each time someone touches his or her face on our DMTV? It wasn't the first on the list of things I was planning to do with this time. But I'll think about it. But I think it's a funny, fun question, even to pose. About, you know, art in the post capitalist post COVID in the world. Yes. So, well, of course, this, this is the kind of thing I think about a lot. And I suppose that one of the problems we have in ever talking about art is that nobody knows why it's important. You know, we all understand why food is important. We all understand why exercise is important, but we don't really understand why art is important. That's partly because the people who traditionally talk and write about art are such bad thinkers. They're so unclear in the way they think and they're so unclear in the way they articulate. And I really think that this is a discussion that I would like to have. I don't know how, how far away, okay, well, I'll, I'll go on to a little tangent for a few minutes here. Okay. It's your platform. All right. So we all know that play is what children do. Okay, play is how children learn to understand the world. They touch things, they squeeze them, they pretend there are other things they, they do all the things we call play and nobody would say to a child, you're wasting your time doing that. It's, it's clearly an essential set of tools for learning social skills and learning physical skills and understanding the world. Now, then at a certain point we, we send people to school and we say, now you're properly learning things as if they weren't learning all that time before. And quite soon to tell someone they're playing becomes a sort of criticism of them. You should be working not playing. So, my theory is that art is really a way of continuing to play throughout the rest of your life. It's continuing to engage in that in those ideas of pretending, thinking about materials in different ways, seeing how things fit together seeing what you're excited by, wondering why you were excited by those things. So, my formula for this is children play, children learn by playing adults play through art, through the experience of art. And I think you can either play directly, that's to say you can make art yourself. And far more people do that than we generally recognize because I was include in the category of art, dressmakers and cooks and people who build things who make things out of nothing. Those are all artists as far as I'm concerned. And we never, we don't stop doing it for the whole of our lives. We, we either do it or we watch other people doing it, we listen to people's music or we watch them dancing or whatever. Now, what is the point of all of that human activity because we do a lot of it. The first thing people do when they can get past the basic problems of staying alive, getting enough to eat or not even getting very much to eat is they start to make art. They start to dance, they start to sing, they start to write. What are they doing? Why are they doing this so much? And I think it's because the most essential thing that humans have, the only thing that makes us really different from anything else in the universe that we know about is our ability to imagine. Our ability to think about something and to examine something that doesn't exist outside of our minds. So we, we are constantly all of us creating other worlds in our minds, even if that other world is simply, I wonder if we'd like to go to that restaurant with Jean and John on Friday evening. I don't know what that would be like. That's, that's a creative thing as well. That's an imagination, active imagination. So that's what humans do. That's what makes us special as a species, what makes us able to survive. And we need to rehearse it all the time. We need to keep doing it to be good at that. So anyway, this is all a very long way to get into answering the question, which is, if we start to understand the importance of art in the ecology of our lives, in the way that we understand the importance of food and exercise and communication and so on. If we start to understand the importance of this deliberate and continuous act of imagining that we call art, then we start to take it seriously. This is something we have to have. We get away from this horrible idea that the important, the only important things for students to learn are the STEM subjects as they're coordinating science, technology, engineering, mathematics. I mean, those are wonderful things, but can you make a small intervention? Yeah, go on. Because my training is in mathematics and I remember that the happy moments of my life, at least until I met my wife, where moments when I would lose myself in play, but because I'm not an artist, I'm a pollster, you know. My play involved mathematics. Yeah, I did a mathematics PhD. And I remember the happiest and most creative moments, and in the end most productive moments when when I was actually playing around with mathematical equations that I was making up completely out of my own head. I was saying, okay, this proposition is impossible. Assume that it is not impossible. What would happen if it were not impossible. Right. So I would spend 10 hours in the middle of the night in England when I used to live back then on a horrible, you know, wall to wall carpet lying down on the floor with pieces of paper and writing and like. And I would come up with stuff that was just nonsensical, you know, just about the world doesn't exist. It was just immensely gratifying. For me that was, you know, that led to some ideas that later on percolated into my work, which got me jobs and made me an academic. So they were not completely useless in the end, but they would never have happened if I did these things in order to do something else. In other words, just like art. Good sign. You know, if you think about it, look, the card came up with a question which was nonsensical. He said, what if there was a number that if you multiply it with itself, you get minus one. Now that number can never exist. And he came up with the imaginary, you know, the square root of minus one. Today, there would be no zoom if he had not thought of that. He gave me something as a stupid idea, but then Leipniz and Euler, you know, the Germans took it and turned it into complex number theory, without which they would be not acknowledged. Yes, so the part did that for the hell of it, not in order to gain something. That's a kind of art. You know, when you say mathematics, if mathematics is a play, you know, like, you know, if it's a realm where people actually play for fun, the same way that the kids, as you put it, who start experimenting with different forms and touch this and touch that making art. So art and science are not at all dissimilar in that sense, that they only produce great stuff, great art and great mathematics, if they are done for nothing. Which is exactly the opposite of neoliberalism, because neoliberalism is always always do something to get money. Right? So, in a sense, doing proper art and protein proper science is the very definition of going against neoliberalism. Good. Now, I've got a very difficult question for you from our audience. I'll read it out. It's a tough one. I don't know how to answer it. You guys are talking from the first world. The developed world. Could you please tell the South what to expect after the virus is defeated? Are we expecting a more messy and unfair world? These are such difficult questions to answer because there won't be one answer. Yes, but there won't be one answer. It's going to be very patchy in different places, different things will happen. So it's hard to just to make any kind of single prediction, I think. It seems to me that as long as we still have a neoliberal structure to our economics, the third world will always suffer. The developing world will always be a disadvantage because the great success, the great triumph of neoliberalism is not so much the creation of wealth, but the concentration of it. And that process carries on absolutely unstopped and continues to accelerate. We have more and more wealth concentrated in fewer and fewer hands and I don't see anything that is happening right now that is going to slow that down. The only thing I think that might actually that I could possibly contribute to, I should say, is a change of attitude about being wealthy. I think that it's going to come to seem very coarse and gross and crude and, you know, you know the way you feel about people who drive stupidly expensive cars around and you think that guy must have a very small thing, you know, to want a car that big. I sort of think there might be a stylistic change in people's attitudes towards wealth. Now this might seem quite trivial in economic terms but I think this does make a difference to people. For example, there's an art movement as you know called minimalism. And minimalism, when it started about 50 years ago I guess it was seemed sort of quite radical because it was a questioning of this idea that more was better. That more detail and more luxurious materials and so on were better. But minimalism, which was initially a stylistic notion like that and it applied to paintings and music has now translated into a sort of social movement. That lady Marie condo with her books, which essentially, you know, their middle class popular books about interior design essentially, but what they translate into is an idea that, oh, do you know what, less might be more interesting than more. Less is cool. More is kind of course over the top. Now, people never really take those kinds of ideas very seriously because it takes a long time before, before they have societal effects, but they do have societal effects in the end. And it does make a difference if, if austerity for instance personal austerity I don't mean European Central Bank austerity but personal austerity becomes a kind of value stoicism reduction. It's as much money as David. Yes. Okay. When, when those things start to become a stylistic statement, something big changes, I think. And I can't remember your question as questioned exactly now. No, the question was about the developing world. Look, the last week, let me just speak for as an economist for just a moment. Last week, there's been an extra dose of money from the development. Smart money that had rushed into countries that were open for speculators, speculators who were taking pets that those countries would take off. You know, the smart money comes in. It creates bubbles, it creates, it empowers the local oligarchy, the local oligarchy buys a lot of Mercedes Benzes and all those big cars, you know, for small things as you put it. And, you know, the exploit resources, they shift resources to the first world. And then the moment the first world has a crisis. Not smart money all comes out because they fear of the local currencies. And by coming out the cause of it, they enhance and the accelerated the valuation of the local currency. And then they go back to, you know, they are repatriated leaving nothing but smithereens behind. We've been experiencing this in the last week, massively. Never before since the 1970s has so much capital left the developing world. And of course, you know, we don't live in a world that has any kind of international solidarity amongst those who have the power to protect it. And therefore, you know, we as movement that's the M25 as a progressive international, we need to look into that because personal parsimony amongst us in the in the West is not going to solve the problem that all those industries around the developing world have collapsed. No, no, of course it is not. No, it won't work like that. But I, I think, I think humans do evolve in their feelings about what is the appropriate way to behave. And the, the whole issue of climate change is of course one of those evolutions now, we are now are aware that we have that we're woven into the ecology of this planet. And we can't, we can't have the attitude to it that we used to have that it was a sort of infinite reservoir of resources that we could draw upon and chuck out the results into some other river. We don't click like that anymore. So these changes do happen and they, they normally start as almost as aesthetic changes. They, they are hardly scientific at the beginning. They're sort of a feeling that this doesn't feel like the right way to be any longer. Now, art is what deals in feelings like that. And it's the, it's the exchanging of those feelings with other people through music and painting and so on, that, that actually consolidates these kinds of ideas. And they all feel the same way about these things that that is the important part of the revolution, actually, there's, I don't know if you know that book, called everything was forever until it was no more. It's a book by a Russian writer called Yobchak, I think, and it's about the end of the Soviet Union. Where he says that, you know, until the night before it collapsed, it was there and solid and eternal. And then suddenly the next day it was gone. And life went on. So things can change very, very, very quickly. But in that, in that book he says something very interesting. He says, as I recall, he says there are two stages in a revolution. The first stage is when everyone realizes something is wrong. But the important stage is when everyone realizes that everyone else realizes it as well. And at that point, the stock exchange. Stock exchange collapses with the things that somebody else thinks that somebody else has realized that there is a. Yes, yes. So, so I, I'm kind of optimistic if, if all the billionaires can piss off to Pluto and live in their bubbles there. They won't, unfortunately, you know, threatening us, you know, they keep promising, but they are not going to deliver. You know, they're going to still, you know, to remain here and suck the blood out of every human being, you know, while purporting to be planning to colonize the rest of the galaxy. And I hope they don't, they don't, you know, move to the rest of the galaxy because I'm a start-track fan. I'm a trekker. I want Captain Picard, I want Captain Kirk to be the representative of humanity, you know, using the good old communist, high-tech common principles of athlete, instead of, you know, Elon Musk's very toxic ideology. Imagine if he is the first representative of humanity in space. I prefer to die than even think of that. Now, I need to apologize for my dog, for not being creating the soundtrack in the distance. He gives you some reason for things that he needs to participate. I've got one question for me, and then we'll see if he can squeeze another one, maybe not. My question is this. What is your next, once you're out of your home in Norfolk and you're back in Notting Hill, what's your next artwork or music project going to be? Well, my next project was supposed to be, and of course it's been cancelled like every other. Going to be, forget everything that happened before COVID-19 is gone. No, it's going to be. It still will be the next project. It just will be later than it was originally going to be. I'm working on a project at the Serpentine Gallery in Hyde Park in London, which is called Back to Earth. I'm part of this project, and it's an attempt really to try to bring together people who are interested in the future design of our relationship with the planet. So it's a sort of a big ecological frame and it involves quite a lot of economics, I think, which was to say the understanding of how we run this household called the Earth. You will no doubt be invited quite shortly to be part of it. And it's sort of an attempt to, for my part, to make this point that many of the changes that become very important human changes start out as either aesthetic senses or spiritual feelings. They start out rather vague. They don't usually start from facts and figures. Though those of course are incredibly important, but what usually gets these movements going are rather vague feelings of this doesn't feel right. Or on the other hand, this feels great. This is what we'd rather be. And I would like to make a place where those feelings can come together with the evidence. I want the science to be there as well. And I want to see what happens when we. They're going to be music as well as installation. Yes, there will be, yes. I hope so. I'm rather vague. Sorry. No, I'm saying it sounds like a major challenge. Is this going to be a soul exhibition or a group exhibition? No, there are many artists involved. That's not a good thing. Sorry. That's not a good thing because too many artists spoiled the brothel. Too many artists spoiled the brothel. The brothel or the brothel. Now, I'd like you to have one last statement because we are moving towards the end. We have three minutes left. And I want to give you just to wrap up. Remember that dim 25 comprises tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people. We have lots of people watching. The design and, you know, one of the people that give them inspiration. And that includes me. So a message to end the night. I think that the most important thing we have to. What we need to know is hope, some kind of hope that we can we can really make something that we can make something great and beautiful in the future. And I think we know. I think we know what will stand in the way of that. It's not so difficult to see what will stand in the way of that. What we want to be clearer about is what is where the seeds of that already are. I think we can use this period for this few months or maybe a few years that we're all in lockdown is, is to say, what is beginning here. What's, what's the new thing that started here. And, you know, I see little signs of it here and there I see people starting to communicate again to collaborate again. I, I think those are green shoots and I want us to all hold on to those and say this, this is the future starting here. Where are you going, you're walking around. I'm listening to you. Complete your sentence. I'm complete. My, my message is the, there's only hope if we have hope, really, we've got to, we've got to do it. It's not going to be made by anybody else. It's us. Of course, that's the whole point of a progressive political movement. It's a Gramsyn line that we are not optimistic. We're very pessimistic, but we remain forever hopeful because this is our human and humanist duty. Now I need to say, I need to give the final word. This little creature here. He's been creating all this. This is Mowgli. Brian, it's been, as always, an immense pleasure. I think that everybody who's been watching is overjoyed and thankful to you. We need to stay together even when we are apart, even when we are in isolation, because the worst enemy of progressives during this period is that this isolation will lead to enhanced privatization. Yeah, though we are isolated, we must never allow privatization to succeed. I thank you. We will do this again. And I hope to next time I see you in the self and time gallery. And I will, I promise to ignore the work of every other artist and to concentrate on your wonderful piece. Thank you, mate. Thank you. Nice to speak to you. Keep watching DMTV. Thank you. Bye-bye.