 Welcome to the open embedded and Yachto project buff. I'm Armin Custer I'm with one of us to software and I am on the Yachto project TSC and I do stable branch maintaining stuff Hello everyone, my name is Nicola de Chen I work for linear row and I'm also the Yachto project community manager So this is the usual buff that we I mean I guess most of you might have actually been at one of these sessions in the past We do that at every ELC ELCE Usually we don't have too much to say it's we are more here to hear from you So the idea is that we will just and briefly say a few words and then we will I mean give you the meek and you Can ask questions We have many people from the project in the room Richard Perdy is here Camerage is here from the TSC and many other people So you can ask us anything anything any technical question any question about what we are doing what we could change to make the project better It's really I mean it's really your talk not our presentation. Okay, so this is just a brief Project update. We just released the 3.0 Zeus on October 23rd We're anticipating our first dot release. We're hoping in December sometime The warrior update is kind of delayed due to some issues and that is about to release. It's Fourth dot release and it may this one the third release may be the last one we do because it's going to go into community as Zeus is under support We started our 3-1 planning The code name is He's working it's working on code name for it But here's the milestones as we see it for the various for the 3.1 release it starts out in December and we think it's going to release sometime in April as usual and then we have the Zeus updates and some other if there's a link at the bottom if you want to look at the Planning doc, it's open to anybody. We have meetings once a month So you're welcome to come listen and contribute to that The octa project TSC has submitted Proposal for LTS It hit the mailing list last week this week That's that that's me to get discussion. This is the link for that Proposal and in that this is the email it had itself and it has linked to the dock itself some of the highlights for the LTS is it's going to be two years It's going to follow a similar similar process the stable We're thinking is just a single host support and no manual QA So if you you can read the proposal you can get on the mailing list and Get involved in the discussions So just on that I mean this is the one topic that we hear at every time we make a buff and people asking Where is the LTS? So this is I mean a proposal which has been put by the TSC. It's open. It's it's a proposal So I mean basically we are looking for feedback We don't always know how people are actually using the project So we definitely I mean care about this feedback So that's that's a baseline for the discussion and we can talk more today or later in the week if you want OE has a new TSC They've had elections and three people were re-elected and we have two new members Bruce Ashfield and Joshua Watt They have their own wiki page for it if you want to see what's going on with that TSC Mailing lists are moving to Groups IO So this is more or less Unfortunately the same slide as like maybe six months ago, but the change now is that we really think this is going to happen So we have been through some issues The idea is that we want to migrate to we are today managing our own Server for the mailing list. We want to move away from that model Many of the open source project at LF actually have moved to groups at IO and we are going to do the same and We believe it's going to happen. I mean if not next week I mean the week right after so sooner or later if you are on a mailing list you will get some notification that something has changed and An account will be made for you and everything will just work as before hopefully The main change that you have to know is that we change the domain names So every list used to be something at the octoproject.org it will now be something at least the octoproject.org That's the only change that will be visible and Hopefully the rest will go through when We've been doing this live coding with the octoproject This is a Twitch account that Joseph if you see him He's hosting it. I think it's once a week Second So we have some links so you can follow and sign up and watch what drink Joseph is having that morning So about that so that's a very good example of things that can happen because you want that So this thing is I mean Joseph wanted to help and he wanted to say I mean How can I help the project and he came up with this idea about making this live session? So we are I mean we really like the initiative really Thank you for doing that and we want more Joseph and more ideas Basically, so anything you want to do to contribute to help the project whether it's doing I mean this kind of video stuff or tutorials or anything any idea you have that can benefit the project you can come Talk to me or talk to I mean any of us and we can see how we can actually work together on how we can help you So and what kind of help you need to make that happen And this year we're doing a Yacht of Summit, which is a Thursday and Friday of this week It's gonna be in the St. Clair three a and B of This was here, right? Yes There's a link there, so I don't think we're taking any more registrations. Yeah, we are we are we are It's impossible. So this is the first time we do this again It's been a very popular demand every time we go to a conference people really wanted to have like a very specific Yacht to an open embedded event where we can talk it's not like a place for developers to hack It's really a place for people. I mean to just I mean out the users and the developers to come and meet So we've sent some CFP. I think I'm during the summer We received actually a lot of proposals and we've done some selection so that there will be talks presentations There are like workshops hackathons There are many things which is going to happen again It's really I mean the event for the community as a whole and we are very happy that we could do that for the first time this year And now So usually the first question is the most more difficult and then the issue is that we cannot leave the room because there are Many questions. So who wants to be the first? Just come and you will see I Sorry How do you get the slides? What the post them? They will be posted on the I mean the ELC website and as usual who is like any I like any other presentations first question or Thank you so I'm from the project Mender.io and we have been using the Yacht to project for many years now and It's also been our primary integration platform for Yeah to integrate our solution into devices The Yacht to project has been the main domain for us But so this is a question related to adoption So it's not so many maybe so fun technically, but it is a problem that I mean It's well known that the Yacht to project is hard to start with And when we are working with our customers, we are seeing a lot of people That maybe they want to use Yacht to project, but they struggle with Yeah, if they're coming from this Debbie and Raspian world Getting into Yacht is a quite a heavy thing So I'm kind of requesting for feedback because we at Mender has started a Initiative to try to bridge We kind of see a gap the Yacht to project documentation from my perspective from my perspective who work with Yacht to every day It's pretty good But if you are coming in as a new user The Yacht to project documentation is very heavy. It's very detailed. It goes goes into very detailed Like how everything is done in the background and so on So we kind of felt that there's this gap missing For getting started quickly to maybe and a lot of our customers or users that we see are Maybe at the infancy of a product. So they are evaluating an idea and they want to Build something that works try it out and maybe then come back later and learn all the details and everything so So when we are launching basically is something we called Mender knowledge hub Which is part of our community platform. So we've started out writing getting started tutorials on Yacht basically and covering So far we've written like getting started with using Python in Yacht. How does it work? How do you find the Python modules and and it's all from a perspective coming from like Debian You're used to working with Python in Debian But it's a quite different using Python in the Yacht to project So I basically I don't really have a question. So I'm more requesting for feedback. What do you think about? Such an issue I mean we are committed to probably we're gonna We have like six tutorials right now. So we are just releasing this Project, but over time we are committed to continuously add more resources as it goes along But I also think that yeah, we are looking for like-minded people that also see a benefit in Early-stage adoption Column we would happily like collaborate and this is of course Publicly available that we have so far So yeah request for comments So this is public material that people can look at today and So maybe I mean so we have the advocacy team I don't know if you know, I mean what it is, but there is an advocacy mailing list. So one won't I mean One way to start would be to actually send an email there join that list and send an email and say This is what we have and this is what we have to offer and and that would be I mean we can talk here Or we can also continue on the on the mailing list. I think I wanted to say the same thing but essentially You know if we can bridge the gap between you have to project org and what you're doing and thereby kind of like provide a central Location where others can also contribute. So maybe and you know going through that case you probably they'll find out a Amicable way of like collaborating with others. So that's a good initiative I mean, I don't know what this is about But I mean if it's material which can benefit the project the first thing we could do would be to link and I mean We have the website which is I mean the visible face of the project So we could link to that and then we there could be a request for improvements or making new materials or anything From the perspective of someone who takes a lot of Takes care of a lot of newcomer questions The most prominent problem that I'm seeing is that way too many newcomers try to transfer a mindset That they know to the Yachter project, which is just not going to work. So in my experience I always try to make the two or three Core mindset things very very clear because once those are burned into your brain The the rest is just a matter of asking the right people or googling But if you if you go like hey, okay now I've got installed this yachter linux, but my app get won't work Then your mindset is broken and no article will fix it. It's really if you are working with newcomers My experience says get get the most core mindset straight then the rest will follow something on the topic or Yes, hello even About the topic of the newcomers and what could be interesting To improve Learn Yachto. I run an independent survey asking to newcomers to propose what Kind of features would be nice to have into the Yachter project and what are the most important topics actually Used into the project. So if you want to have a look at it please Tell me Thank you We want Do you have anything else? I mean anybody has any comment on? Yes, I was saying Yeah, I agree with what you said about a lot of people coming from this WM world have a different mindset And we have tried We've done we've done a lot of articles in the Yachter project and one specifically we did was adjusting from binary distributions to the Yachter project where we kind of went through this In yacht or you are like ground up. You're not going from the top and so on. So we try we've tried that but I also still feel that I Mean a lot of the companies that we work with Maybe they maybe how they have the right mindset, but they don't want to learn everything at the beginning, right? So they have some kind of product or idea that they're developing And they don't want to become Yachter experts. The first thing they do they want to test their AI machine learning application or whatever and deploy it them like in a pre-production release and in that phase, so it's kind of like Providing a quick start guide to Not maybe the correct way to say to like to go quickly to production But kind of help without going too much into the details They will probably if they go down this path, they will probably learn everything that they need to know But at least during this initial phase It's quite important Okay, thanks. So as I said, I think this kind of initiative should start on the Yachter advocacy mailing list or by talking to one of us like you've done and That's actually how we started with Joseph. It started by an email and that's So thanks So Anybody else now? Nicola, you helped me like a year ago to file a bug on backtracking in regards of the uninated shim not being versioned and And I can see that buck being moved and moved and moved from milestone to milestone I'm wondering what is so complicated about that At least you testify that we teach you how to create a bug You know what Rachel you want to take this one? Yeah, so I think I'm the person who's actually had that bug and has been moving it forward over that time period So and it's one of a number of different bugs The reality is we don't have an awful lot of people who are taking on bug fixing within the project and there's limits to what we can do So yes, we realized it. There is potential issue there But fixing it is not quite as simple as it first sounds. There were reasons why we didn't put a version in there directly It's done through the URL you access it through not necessarily in the file name. I appreciate that does cause some problems You know the bugs valid is definitely an issue, but it just hasn't we haven't got them We haven't had the resources and people working on bugs to be able to fix everything so my apologies for not getting to it, but Yeah, we can only do what we can do And the message here is that you should still open books. I mean it's not because I mean sometimes I mean I mean we keep pushback in fixing bugs, but we still want them and we still need to hear me the feedback No question Nobody wants to ask any questions about maybe the LTS. I mean that was a good topic last time. I mean now we have some Proposal are you asking me or would you want me to ask you? Okay, so the yes, okay, so the real challenge with the LTS is that I mean basically down to I mean again I mean the resources so we we have to we think we know What we want to do I mean I mean solving the LTS problem is kind of we know what to do The problem is we are asking who I mean can help or how the work is going to happen. There is actually issue with Actually people helping the project and doing the work and then there is also problems with how we are going to test I mean the test matrix is going to be a demultiplied by it. I mean and and much longer So that's that's the I mean obviously one of the biggest issue we have Don't do anything nature so again, I mean this is I mean this is Unfortunate, I mean but this is probably like very often in I mean in the project But we are always I mean very limited by I mean the resources that we have so Anything you can do to help us Giving feedback helping with resources or in any way I mean is always something which can definitely help the project What we see with the project. It's used a lot. I mean we know that and I mean basically there are lots of people in the room But the number of developers that actually contributes project is not actually Proportional to the number of the users of the project. That's one of the big issue and big challenge that we have in the project So I think one of the ways that that folks out there could help is if your company is really relying on Yachtra project and You have developers that actually understand some of the bugs that happen to be on bugzilla Pick them up and work on them and you know and help us fix them, right? so there is a very large community using Yachtra project and There is ample opportunity for people to contribute and get involved and if you're a newcomer and you're afraid of Being embarrassed or whatever, you know, then just Realize we're we're probably one of the most welcoming and open communities. There is an open source. It's I'm pretty proud of that fact and so You may get a terse email from Kamraj to one of your your patches, right? The fact it's it's but it's right So take to understand that the that it is short because time because Kim's time to respond is short The fact that he actually responded is very Significant you caught his attention. Okay, so for any I know there's other things like that. So you know put your ego put your you know your emotions on the shelf and just You know try to realize that that any response you get is not Personal or anything like that, but I just say, you know, there's so many opportunities for people to get involved and help You know, I personally actually joined this project Before Yachtra project existed we open embedded and I was I happened to be working at a company that was looking at using it We ended up not using it, but I became a Volunteer developer and I've never looked back, right? So there's just tons and tons of opportunity out there And I just welcome anybody who wants to to just come in join Help us, you know help us make the project better Don't just be a consumer. Don't just treat it like a product that's on the shelf, right? This is yours to be involved in and grow Just to put some I mean rule numbers if you make two patches a week you be you enter the top 10 And number of developers of the project I mean so if you do this kind of thing so it doesn't take a lot to actually help the project if you look at every release that we make We basically I think we talked about that today I mean we we commit something like 15 to between 15 and 20 Commit every day of the release, but we have 10 people who actually really contribute I mean most of the time so I mean it's actually not that I mean we don't need like Huge amount of people I mean every every one one engineer can actually make a difference at the project level So I mean everybody can help and and and all these people in this home I mean collectively and connect you make a big difference for the project So okay, I'm asked to mention how to reach out to the developers So I mean obviously we rely a lot on the mailing list But we are also using I see a lot and people like Joseph help people newcomers I mean like this is is doing that almost like every day and Most of the key I mean developers are also there on ISE and also answer questions. So you can actually reach out to I mean Everyone is actually very easy to reach out to in this project. That's actually quite true so I have been working with York tool for like two or three years and First of all, I want to say thank you to you guys because I think it is very good So my question is I was submitting like one or two patches and I always ask myself Am I breaking some something else? You know, I'm just working on my BSP or Maybe I even run it On QM once but are there more things you can do to actually make sure that your patch is not breaking Something else like there are auto bills or something So maybe Richard we had something what we can say Every I mean every patch which is on mailing list, which is good enough to be maybe merged is actually going through the auto builders So there is a huge IT infrastructure behind the project and everything is I mean There is the auto builder that where we actually test all the combination that you did not test So, I mean the HR maybe you can explain when you when you decide to make take a patch into the AB Yeah, well pretty much any patch that we are thinking about taking goes into the auto builder and gets tested All of those test configurations are actually public and there are test cases that you can actually run by hand So for example, if you are changing something like recipe tool or dev tool There's specific test suites that can be used with those and it's a command line along the lines of OE dash self test dash recipe tool or something like that, which is like the module name of the thing that we're testing and I think my Ask my suggestion is that if you're making changes in any of these areas help us add new tests because Even if there's no tests there currently if you add your tests in that means that whatever it is that you just fixed We'll hopefully not regress again because if we've got tests there, we'll be able to check that in future So test adding new test cases is something that we're starting to sort of ask for with new contributions Particularly in areas of the project, which we don't necessarily know an awful lot about Because this is one of the challenges the project can be configured in so many different ways with so many different options How do you test it and the way we do that is through things like OE self-test and those modules Did you know about the ATO builders? I mean, did you know that we had one? Okay, so maybe one thing we could do I mean we have a how to submit a patch I think it's on one of the wiki so we could actually explain I mean not only how to submit a patch, but what happens once you submit the patch Like maybe I mean this kind of thing. I mean, this is actually an interesting feedback I think you shouldn't I mean I mean not everybody knows that stuff So maybe we should have another section in that wiki that says once you submitted the patch and I mean of course if the But if there is a review comments or anything the patch is not okay I mean that's but then if the patch is okay I mean there is a whole life cycle for this patch which we probably could document at least you should have a Link to the auto builders and the process that we follow. It's it's I Was just gonna say on the altar build a process for those who don't know about it It takes roughly about six hours to come through it But we do have the patches in batches because we can't afford the CPU cycles to basically test things individually So it is a manual process to collect things up and trigger it and it's done in batches of roughly around 30 to 60 patches or so Yes, and then so that it's build tests. It's also runtime tests So we do test a lot of the things on the chemo including things like p-test packages for Components within those those images, which is why we're running the upstream tests related to a given piece of software The stable branches go through the same process when we backport patches we use the same infrastructure and QA tests and stuff So sometimes you don't actually see any response on the mailing list because your patch was basically You know, nobody had any major comments and they brought it into a master next branch So what you should be looking for is in the repository that you're committing to or you're sending a patch for look for it to be landing in the master next and You will usually hear feedback if it broke something and then you know then otherwise it Often tends to be merged the reality is we don't have enough manpower to be reviewing every single patch and you know Really responding? The other thing is if you're talking about a given recipe or a given package and not part of the core Tooling if you just simply run on you know, QMU x86 QMU arm, you know There's five or six QMU's that are that are more than that But anyway, you can run on all of them if you if you like But if you want to just do some basic sanity checking that you haven't broken anything at least run on on the two main QMU's the other thing is Kim would really love it if you would also build it with muscle because this is one of the things that that is most likely to break So if any patch you're going to do to a given recipe or whatever it is It is highly likely that muscle will have issues with it And so just you know do us all a favor and actually look at that There's many many ways of doing the you know your own automation and your own testing and so on So in the doctor project summit, I'm actually going to be talking about result tool And I'm going to talk about p-test and always self-test stuff. So I'll be giving at least a light view of What all those mean how you run it, you know what it what it takes and Many of these tests are quite easy to run just from the command line or something like that So it's there's quite a bit you can do on your own Yeah, I was just gonna say I was just gonna say that from my personal experience The auto builder code is there as well. It's a repo. You can clone it. You can create your own CI on That and it all the the matrix of different combinations that are tested They're there. So you technically if you have time you can just load your own Auto builder and Put it to run at night and you know, you're not breaking anyone else's things with your patch, right you use use your branch instead and Yeah, that's pretty much it you can do it you can the auto builder publishes The downloads and as stayed as well. So if you can configure it with that it's not even gonna take that long Even though it's not the perfect test for a newcomer But on the Thank you again You can attend my talk on Friday and learn how to strengthen your Yachto deployments so the open embedded website lists a lot of layers available and my question is does this auto-testing involve the Those layers that might be out of you know, like not in the core because I looking for some features you look for layers and Some of layers are actually not maintained or not not that not in sync have no like a branch which matches the The Yachto release. So how is it handled? So I guess you are talking about the layer index, which is a really good tool that Exists on layers.openemedi.org That I mean everybody is free to submit. So if you have your own layer You can submit that there is a light process where we review I mean that the content of the layer is It's actually a layer. I mean it's not something that is going to break everything and then we just publish So I mean we don't do any specific test on what is published on the on the layers If the maintenance of the layer does not provide the release branch for that you need I mean that's your I mean you can ask the maintenance but we don't do anything in terms of the testing What we'd mentioned with the autobilder is for what is on the on the on the core side So it's it's basically I'm pocky to some extent There are also I mean CI that happens with more layers inside your open embedded And maybe can you want to talk about what you are doing? Yeah, so I think right now. I think we are working on primarily, you know, a bunch of servers that we have On open embedded so we don't do any of the runtime tests given, you know, the number of layers there are and number of large packages the Turn around time is too big like even for the bills is run like 12 hours for one bill. So But I'm kind of like we are working with Yachter project where we have now started to some projects to kind of integrate more layers. It's essentially the some of this Met open embedded layers. So You know, like regularly building them there as well. So I think eventually I do have plans to add more like p-test kind of things In there depending upon how much resources we have there. So I'm kind of looking at how much estate it is using from, you know, the master bills Which is pretty good right now pretty encouraging. So meta open embedded bills don't take that longer on a B So, you know, we might have more tests like runtime tests as well in future I don't know depends like on participation, but right now. That's what we do. I Think there are individual layers that you have on github or other places and you have to go and talk to those maintainers and maybe There's many layers. They keep their master working on multiple releases. So you might not see a third Release, but the master of that project is still built with that, right? So I know that meta browser is that way, right? So you might want to Check with the maintainers. They have different policies. You may not have like exact branch, you know That's back to the order question and what we describe earlier with the process of the patch and the AB and so on is Is four things that go into the core? I mean the core here That's fine. I can do that So is that the only woman leading the room right there? Beth we got that too well besides us. Oh and you so First of all, I wanted to say that I've never seen camera right more than a sentence So don't take it personally at all ever and in fact he asked Richard today If Richard could possibly do the weekly status reports in 240 characters or less. Oh 140 sorry 140. Yeah So you guys have no sense of humor at all. I can't believe it I wanted to say a couple of things. I know today. I don't know if you guys brought this up I was a little bit late. We were talking about the planning meetings for Yachto project for the next Rev Did you talk about that at all? So I don't really know that much about them. I know they take place. Are they weekly? Weekly Doesn't matter you can figure out how often Tim's gonna tell because he can't stand it when I give the wrong information But my point is that there's this really unique opportunity for you guys to show up and Input on what you want out of the project and what you think is important and what directions it should go in and what you really need and I think a lot of people don't take advantage of that and I think it's super super important for people who don't have a sense of humor to show up at the planning meetings and And input some stuff So I know there are things that are important to you and it's possible that they're just not getting into the project because no one knows and then the other thing which is Much more simple is we have a really cool thing on the Yachto project website where you can advertise jobs So if any of you have a position in your company that you'd like to have advertised other Yachto project open embedded people It's another place you can do so and so you just send it into I think there's a link on the website somewhere to the webmaster You can send it to anywhere. We'd be happy to post it and Happy to post it. Yeah Okay, thank you. So yeah, so that was a good day. I need to talk about the meetings the project has a couple of meetings there is an engineering weekly Weekly and which I mean is I mean anyone can join and attend and just try to to contribute to the project one thing Which is to link to what we how we started? We we sometimes feel that we are missing feedback from the users. I mean, we have very good feedback from the developers I mean that we know all of them, but we are missing feedback from the users So what Tracy was saying is that if you want to I mean one way to contribute to the project is to explain How you use the project and what you expect from the project because sometimes we don't even know what I mean you expect and We've seen Sometimes we are surprised but what people are actually doing with the project But we often learn that after the fact and not not not early enough No phone calls There's essentially two meetings that happen every week one of them is Once a month is the monthly technical call, but the rest of the time the same Zoom number is used for the same time slot and that's the engineering sink call and that has in the past been All kinds of different things talking about infrastructure and things like that But it has recently become a catch-all for where we just talk about whatever happens to be going on The other meeting that happens every week is the bug triage meeting which is on Thursdays So the technical calls on Tuesdays the bug triage is on Thursdays. I will not try to do the EU time zone Translation but because I'm from California or from West Coast. Sorry So the bug triage call is where we look at the new bugs that have come in during that week that have been added to Bugzilla and we triage them figure out what priority and everything to add them to Attempt to figure out who is going to work on them if they are high priority and things like that and Then we also look at the old bugs and things like that and try to make sure we're taking care of them and you know keeping things healthy We can absolutely use a lot more help in bugzilla and in that space so we would recommend anybody that wants to join either one of those calls and listen in Get a feel for what the meetings are about and bring up issues that you might have Any other questions? We are already running out of time. I thought we had more than that, but But nobody has kicked us out anyway So if there are more questions or any last one maybe otherwise, maybe we are done nobody Yeah, so we have yeah, that's right. So we have the booth Which is at the showcase and I mean so we are on there all day So if you want to ask more questions or give us any feedback on the project There will always be someone from the project at the booth and as we mentioned We have the Yachter project summit on Thursday if you want to learn about that you can also come and talk to us at the booth Thanks again for the booth today and have a good rest of the conference