 Welcome to the first interactive web chat in the Religious Diversity in America series, which aims to engage experts in dialogue with global audiences about the issues facing religious minority groups in the United States and about the multiplicity of the American experiences. My name is Shariq Zuffer, and I serve as special representative to Muslim communities at the U.S. Department of State. In that role, I helped to drive Secretary Kerry's engagement with global Muslim communities in support of our shared goals and to advance U.S. foreign policy. Today, I'll be moderating a conversation with two special guests who have a breadth of experience tackling the challenge of minority civil rights in the United States. The first is Karim Shora, who serves as the section chief of the Community Engagement Section in the Office for Civil Rights and Civil Liberties at the U.S. Department of Security, or DHS. In his position, Karim is an expert and advisor at DHS, providing analysis on significant civil rights matters of national and international scope. He also builds strategic partnerships with key ethnic and religious communities, responds to their concerns regarding the politics and practices of DHS, and communicates with these communities on existing and proposed DHS programs and policies and their possible impact. Hoda Hawa serves as director of policy and advocacy for the Muslim Public Affairs Council, where she oversees strategic initiatives to engage federal policy makers and develop a policy-minded constituency among U.S. Muslims. She has written on subjects such as ranging from international religious freedom to national security, and she frequently focuses on issues that affect Americans both domestically and internationally, with a particular emphasis on those issues that impact American Muslims. Welcome, Karim and Hoda. Now for the next hour, we will examine how the U.S. government protects the civil rights of minority groups. We will talk about U.S. efforts both in the government and civil society to counter discriminatory backlash against Muslims and other minority communities. We're joined by participants around the world who are joining the conversation online. So welcome to all of you. I'd also like to extend a special greeting and welcome to our on-camera viewing group at the America House in Ramallah, and a thank you to our good friends at the American Consulate General in Jerusalem. For online viewers who want to ask a question, please send them via the interactive chat space or through Twitter at specialrepmc. That's specialrepmc. I look forward to hearing your questions and discussing this important topic together. Now, Hoda and Karim, can you tell us a little about yourselves, you know, your professional background, your personal background? Hoda, how about we start with you? Sure. Well, first, thank you so much for having me. You know, my grandparents immigrated to America back in the 60s from Egypt, and they would always, you know, tell us as the grandchildren and tell their children that the reason that they came here, not only for the better opportunity and to build a future for their family, but because they were able to practice their faith, their Islam freer here in America than they were in Egypt. So as a first generation American Muslim, you know, I look back at the challenges that they experienced when they first immigrated and the challenges that American Muslims deal with today. But what's really exciting in our work at the Muslim Public Affairs Council is really focusing on the opportunities. We really work on issues of perceptions and policies because we see the two really intertwined. We want to ensure that our narratives and our stories and our experiences are told authentically by American Muslims for America in general. And at the same time, while we see that perceptions can impact policies, we work with government, we work with our partners in federal agencies and members of Congress to ensure that our civil rights and our civil liberties are upheld. No, I appreciate that. You have to focus. It's a difficult job. You have to focus on perceptions and also policies. And you can't do one or the other. You have to do both. Well, Karim, you know, you and I have known each other for a long time. You know, you're in civil society. Now you're in the government. And you have an amazing background. If you could just give us a short description of what you've been up to for the last several years. Thank you so much, Shah. It's a pleasure to be part of this effort. I'm personally an immigrant to this country. I came to the United States at age 14. I was born in Damascus, Syria. And I had lived in the Middle East until age 14 before immigrating to the U.S. with my parents. Similar to Huda's story. And I think it's similar to the story of our nation at large. We are a nation of immigrants. Absolutely. And I think some of the challenges related to civil rights and civil liberties that I'm sure will be discussed during this hour is nothing really new to our society and our culture and our system. I think my professional story being in civil society as an attorney, I was a civil rights lawyer who was fortunate to be able to address some of these civil rights challenges, working with and sometimes against U.S. government agencies. And now today I'm here representing the United States Department of Homeland Security, working in that same capacity to make sure that we do our job effectively, correctly. And first and foremost is to protect what this country is all about, which is the constitutional values we cherish so dearly. The one thing that's fascinating about your career is that you've worked on both sides in civil society and in government. But I think you'll agree with me that that's not unique among communities. That's true for the African American community, the Latino community. And I think that's great that it's now true for the Arab and Muslim communities that you can think of so many examples of people who have worked in civil society and then joined the government. And you can do both. And of course there's a different role. But I think it's something about the integration of the Arab and Muslim American experience that now we are doing the same things that other communities have done. It's absolutely, it's the story of our nation. For someone who's of immigrant background or him or herself an immigrant to be able to do that is rather typical of how our system and process works here. Well, look, let's go to our first question. And this is, I think, one for both of you. But in particular, given the fact that you're still in civil society, how do you think policymakers can better engage with religious and community groups to ensure that local civil rights laws reflect the diversity of society? And what can they do to make sure that people not only feel protected, but actually are protected? Right. I think first and foremost is being present. Being present in all communities, engaging with folks from all backgrounds within those communities. So whether it's ensuring that young voices are heard, getting a diverse breadth of voices with that outreach engagement, I think, can really ensure that civil rights laws are reflected in the diversity of that society. The second thing I would say is, and I find this increasingly important, as we're hearing about current events, is that we would policymakers who really understand the nuances of communities, local societies, local communities, reflect those communities. And by that, I mean, as someone working within civil society, it's also my job to encourage young American Muslims, young Americans of all backgrounds to be involved, to be engaged, to become those policymakers so that they are coming with that understanding, that background and that knowledge of the challenges and the opportunities from within that community. Back in my day, when I was a civil rights lawyer at the U.S. Department of Justice, and we were doing a lot of 9-11 backlash work, I often felt, and Kareem, I'd be interested to get your thoughts, that there was value in just showing up. Even if people were really upset and frustrated and angry, now it wasn't sufficient just to show up, but there was some value just being there. And sometimes you just had to get through that, you know, and then you could actually start moving the ball forward. And by that, I mean actually making progress on substantive issues. What do you think? I completely agree. It's establishing dialogue. What I do for a living for the Department of Homeland Security Office for Civil Rights and Civil Liberties is community engagement. And as Huda alluded to, it's actually engaging with a whole of society, the entire community. It's not specifically working with one community over another or apart from another. And that is the model that we do follow, and I think rather effectively in making sure that we tackle those tough issues showing up and engaging in dialogue is the very first step in doing that. Yeah, and I appreciate your point that there's no special treatment for Arab or Muslim communities, rather it's normalization in the sense that we treat Arab and Muslim and African American and Latino and other ethnic and religious communities. We aspire to treat them equally. And so I think one thing that I know this President has been very good about is to make sure that we have a broad level of engagement. So make sure that Arab and Muslim communities are included in the fatherhood initiative on immigration policy and healthcare because there's 1.6 billion Muslims in the world and we care about the same issues everybody else does. Now, Huda, you said something really interesting about perceptions. And, you know, perceptions matter. There's no question. So what are the greatest or most harmful misperceptions of Muslims, of Arabs, you know, that you think that both society but also government officials need to be mindful of? I think one of the misperceptions particularly pertaining to the American Muslim community is that we are a new community to America and that we are one of the newer immigrant groups. And the reason why I think that that could be a very harmful misperception is because then we are treated as such as a new community where people are still getting to know us. Whereas I think our value is that we've been part of the United States of America since even before the founding of the United States of America. Oh, that's right, absolutely. Muslims have been involved in really every war since the American Revolution War. And, you know, it's interesting when I engage with policymakers and even when I engage with communities, people are not always, you know, coming with that background or that knowledge knowing that Muslims have been part of this country and that we've contributed and we've been productive members of society. So part of my work then is to change that perception and to ensure that people understand we've been here for quite some time and we've been productive members of this country. No, I think knowing our own history is incredibly important. I was actually at that mosque in Baltimore a few months ago when President Obama spoke and he talked about the fact that many of the African slaves that were brought over were Muslims. That Muslims have fought in every war that the United States has fought in. And I think that is, I think you're absolutely right that part of changing those perceptions is knowing your history but also telling your story. Absolutely. I think far too often our story is told, you know, by others and I think now we are in a unique position to be telling our own stories and we're getting more of our own stories out there. Now, yeah, I completely agree. Now, a challenge though is in telling your own stories is knowing your stories, knowing your history and for other Americans to know, you know, our story and our history. So there's got to be a role in education. So what role, Kareem and also Hoda, but what role do you think universities, schools, the education infrastructure in the United States, what role do you think it should play in helping teach authentic traditions and history but also in countering misperceptions about ethnic and religious groups? It definitely has a primary role. There's no question about that. I mean speaking not just in my official position but as myself being a Muslim American, I can tell you growing up in this country, you know, starting at age 14 at least, the manner by which our education system is able to incorporate the history of our country through civics courses, through social studies courses, through extracurricular activities. Our school system may be somewhat unique in the fact that extracurricular activity, school clubs, community-based PTAs or parent-teacher association efforts are absolutely key in that effort. And I think the Muslim American community has in fact played a very constructive role in the past few years in making sure that that does happen. We've seen it happen at the national level and we've seen it happen at the local level and it's actually facilitated the ability of both others to understand what our story is and what our history is as well as for our own children to understand that they are part of this mosaic we call the United States of America. You know, we were talking about education, right, in teaching history, teaching traditions, but what's the role of the education sector, schools, universities in promoting tolerance, diversity, pluralism, right? So beyond just who we are, how do we live together? I think that, you know, especially in the classroom, the classroom should be a safe space, should be a place where there's a marketplace of ideas, where our students can talk about the ideas that they have, talk about current events, talk about their backgrounds. I think the education system plays a very important role in promoting diversity, in promoting pluralism, in promoting tolerance. I can remember as a little girl in middle school, in elementary school even, you know, during Ramadan, the time, the month of fasting for Muslims, being comfortable enough to go into my classrooms and talk to my fellow students about what was happening for the next 30 days and how we culminate that month in the Irid holiday. And it was because my teachers allowed me to feel comfortable, they created that safe space. At the same time, I think we are in a unique situation because of our growing interconnectedness with social media, where, you know, everyone has an opinion, which is great and fine. I fear that, and I do hear some stories from folks around the country, where they don't necessarily feel comfortable talking about issues that impact them or that they feel, you know, very strongly about. And so, again, part of our work is to encourage educators to have that open environment for students to be able to constructively talk about these issues. Okay. No, I appreciate that. Achille, let's get some questions from our online viewers. One online viewer asks, what accommodations the US government make for Muslims in the military who want to do religious acts like fast and pray five times a day? So, this issue of religious accommodations, right? So, Karim? I know that the US military actually does provide the accommodation that's afforded, not just to Muslims. I mean, that's the, I think the message that needs to be clarified is, as you indicated, there is no special treatment. But religious accommodation overall is part and parcel of what this country is about. Our founding fathers and mothers, the very basis of what this country stands for is the US constitution. In that constitution, we have the First Amendment. Absolutely. And so, the military has been at the forefront of making sure that they accommodate individual beliefs and practices, including for those who may happen to be Muslim in the military. No, we have Muslim chaplains. We have members of the Islamic and Muslim community serving in every branch of our military. I think you'll appreciate this. Oftentimes, when I travel, people are surprised that how the United States is really a religious country. We have a secular government. As a former civil rights lawyer, I believe very strongly in our First Amendment and our separation of religion from the state and from government, because I actually think that protects religion from government encroachment. So we're a secular government, but we're a deeply religious country. And that means that we, the State Department, for the Muslims who want to pray every Friday, my office is on the seventh floor, we walk down four floors of steps, and we can all pray for anybody who wants to. It's not required, but if you want to, space is made available. Okay, next question. On American college campuses, how freely can students discuss Israeli-Palestinian issues in voice or opinion? So that's another one from our online viewers. Sure. So that's an interesting question. I think that there are certainly some college and university campuses around the country that really create a free and open environment for students to engage in this issue. And this is a very hot topic. Students on all sides feel very passionately about the Israeli-Palestinian question. There are, however, and there have been instances where students have felt that their free speech has been curtailed and has been silenced by faculty, by administration. And I fear that the reason that administration with certain schools really want to shut down this conversation is because perhaps they themselves are not comfortable having this conversation. Whether it's a lack of education or a lack on their part to really even engage at the lowest level to even start the conversation. There are students that fear that if they talk about the Israeli-Palestinian question that they will somehow be blacklisted on their campuses. And so we need to continue to work in order to ensure that they can exercise their free speech right and be able to constructively talk about this. Your response reminded me of a time. I was actually in Indonesia on a trip when we brought over a delegation of American Muslims and the purpose of the trip was just really to exchange ideas and build relationships and strengthen the US-Indonesia relationship. One of the people that we brought was a religious leader who had, I think his father was Palestinian. And so when some of the groups in Indonesia found out, they asked him some questions and they asked me some questions about Israel-Palestinian policy. Now as a government official, my answers reflected our policy. That's the appropriate role for a diplomat. Now, my counterpart who was traveling in his private capacity gave his opinion and he said, look, and he had some issues about the American policy. But the broader point that he made is, look, I'm sitting next to my government official and I'm able to say whatever I want and even criticize the government. I think that's the strength of our government. My job is to reflect policy, but my job is also to make sure that we engage people in the United States and around the world and ideally they have every right and ability to express their criticisms. Oh, absolutely. And that makes us a stronger country. It definitely does. I don't think that engagement means agreement on all things, on all issues and I think that that creates a healthier democracy when folks from civil society, from all sectors, can engage government and be critical of those policies. And I hope to see one day that all universities and campuses, that's translated down to that setting as well. So it's no surprise that this next question I think is coming up because it's been a really tough week for the United States. And frankly, for the world, we've had awful attacks in Saudi Arabia and Bangladesh and Turkey. The United States, we're still reeling from the loss of life in cities around the country. So it's been a tough couple of weeks. And one online viewer asks about the recent tragedy, the recent attacks in places like Orlando, Bangladesh, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Medina. Most of the communities oftentimes after such attacks happen, there's often a backlash, a discriminatory backlash. Now, Kareem, because I know you actually have systems in place to deal with this. Yes. What can other, what can we do? How can religious groups be proactive in addressing the possibility of backlash? A, what's the role of government? And I'd ask you to think about not just days and weeks after, but what are the things that the government should do immediately after one of these attacks even if we don't know who's responsible? Number one is making sure that you're engaging and communicating with all voices, regardless of whether those voices agree with you or disagree with you. That's the first step. So establishing that conversation before the incident takes place. It should be part of your regular job and responsibility, it's in fact good governance. Yeah, I just wanna jump in. So the idea is the worst possible time to establish a relationship with the civil rights investigator or a government official, the sheriff is when the house is on fire. Absolutely. You wanna know who the fire chief is before a fire started. Absolutely, that's absolutely correct. Number two, again, when you start those conversations, you make sure that you're not having a conversation simply because of one reason with only one community. It has to be a whole of society approach like we talked about earlier. The tragedies, the unfortunate tragedies you referenced are absolutely horrific in many contexts. But I think in the United States we have had backlashes take place, especially after 9-11, we're very familiar with those. We've learned our lesson in the past several years in knowing how to mitigate or reduce the possibility of the backlash by having those relationships of trust. And again, it's not just with communities or groups or organizations or individuals who agree with you. You should not be preaching to the choir, as we say in the U.S. You need to be engaging with all voices, especially those who may be critical to some of the issues that you're trying to address. Now, Hoda, your group has to deal with these issues as well. From the civil society perspective, what do you think civil society groups should do? And I'd be interested to get your thoughts on what can government do as well? So from civil society, it's really what Karim was saying. We wanna know who the fire chief is before the fire started. Similarly, we need to build relationships with other communities, whether that's our faith allies, whether that's allies in other communities. Building that strong support system is so critical so that if and when something tragic happens, we have that support system in place. After 9-11, it was other communities, the Japanese American community, the Latino community who reached out to American Muslims to say, hey, are you okay? We're here if you need us. And so I think it's really critical for us to establish and start building those relationships from now. Similarly, it's our job to build those relationships with government as well. Federal law enforcement, local law enforcement, we need to have those relationships in place so that if and when something happens, we have those partners. Just real quick, I understand that we have some group in Karachi who's viewing us online, I want to express my gratitude and thanks. Karachi is actually the city of my birth, so in some respects, it's my hometown, so I want to thank everybody in Karachi for joining us this morning or this afternoon. Now, from our viewing group in Ramallah, this is actually a very important question. What role, if any, does the media play in perpetuating racism against Muslims or other religious or ethnic communities? Do you want to talk? I think Hoda, she's the best place to answer that. Sure. You know, I think that the media plays a really big role. We have, or we need to ensure that we have responsible journalists, that we have responsible reporting. I think now, obviously in the United States, we're going through an election cycle. Right. There have been candidates, there's been a lot of airtime given to people who have made a lot of anti-Muslims statements. They've made a lot of xenophobic statements. And I think that media has given a lot of airtime to these individuals because these stories are catchy. At the same time, while that's very problematic, at the same time, there are instances and examples of people coming together of elected officials and people who have the power of the bully pulpit, who have been saying positive things, who continue to ensure that America is a diverse and pluralistic nation, who continue to quell the fears of Americans that our borders will remain open for immigrants because we are a nation of immigrants. So I think that the media needs to, at times, put themselves in check and have more fair and balanced reporting when it comes to these types of issues. If I may follow up, I completely agree with you on the points raised from your perspective. One thing that we are very cognizant of in the U.S. is we have a free media. Absolutely. The protections that we discussed earlier apply to the media. It's an independent sector and they have every right to discuss these issues in whatever way they wish. But as I always tell my colleagues in civil society, which is an also very independent sector in the U.S., the media in the United States is like an ocean. In an ocean, there are a lot of undercurrents, there are a lot of waves, so you have every ability and capacity in the U.S. to be able to make your own waves using that same apparatus that is the independent media in the U.S. Echoing on the point that you made of using the bully pulpit, I know that the U.S. government and the current administration, my boss, Secretary Jay Johnson of Homeland Security has made a concerted effort in the past year of actually using his position to emphasize the role of all communities, including Muslim American communities. He traveled to 16 cities around the country, holding press conferences, hand in hand with Muslim American leaders to demonstrate that the United States government is engaged with and believes in the capacity of this community. Look, I think a free and open media is one of our great strengths. I think the best way to fight a bad idea or a bad story is with a better story. And I think one challenge for all of us is to ensure that we are able to tell our own stories. And that's certainly true in government and civil society. And I think that our First Amendment, which protects the free speech, including for the media, is a real national asset. Responsibilities, of course, it's important for journalists and media and frankly, government officials, we all have to be responsible. But I do believe that sunlight is the best disinfectant, as we say. And what that means, it's an American phrase, what that means is sometimes the best way to address a bad statement or incorrect story is to shine a light on it, have people investigate it, have people or reporters look at it and then have a conversation. And I think one thing we live in a world where people have such an amazing opportunity to tell their own stories like never before because of social media and technology. Now, speaking of technology, I want to take advantage of this interactive session. So again, the Viewing Group in Ramallah, let's get some more questions. If you have any questions and also if there's any questions from the online community, I want to take advantage of this time. So please do submit your questions. All right, so okay, go ahead, Ramallah, do you have a question? Yes, we do. Okay, and I can hear you, this is great. Okay, so I'm translating the question on behalf of my colleagues who are sitting here. Our question is from one of the students here in Ramallah, saying as Palestinian students living here in Ramallah, how can we improve or help create a better image of Muslims around the world that would help Americans understand us better, especially within the context of that Arab-Israeli conflict in the region here? Well, Hoda, what do you think? You know, I've been seeing a lot of stories coming out of Palestine, coming from Palestinians around the world, just being everyday humans. You know, I feel like it's the same challenge that we have here in America as American Muslims. How do we humanize? How do we normalize our story and our experiences? And like you referenced, Shark, I think with the advent and the increasing popularity of social media, anyone can pick up an iPad or an iPhone and just shoot, hey, hello, my name is Hoda and I am here in Washington, D.C., ask me any questions you may have. And I think that because we are increasingly getting more and more connected with each other around the world, that that's a very important asset that we need to continue to utilize. You know, when I was young, I heard a story about a lion and a hunter, right? And the lion was evil and conniving. And the hunter was really brave. And I kept hearing the story over and over again. And eventually I tried to question, you know, what's wrong with this lion? What makes him so evil? And why is the hunter so brave? And I was like, well, no, the lion's perfectly normal. The lion's a very brave animal. And I always said, well, but the story is that it's evil. And I was told until the lion learns to speak and tell his or her own story, you're only gonna get the view of the hunter, right? And so speaking up, telling your stories, and let me tell you to the folks in Ramallah, we wanna hear your stories. You know, certainly the US government, our Consulate General in Jerusalem is committed to engaging you all and hearing your stories and sharing your stories. And let me tell you, I'm sure there's many Americans that would love to hear from me. So I'm very grateful that you're here today. And do you happen to have another question? It looks like we have another question for Ramallah. Please go ahead. So my question is that what are the milestones you're going through after the shootings that are happening on the US, especially after Orlando? Can you tell us how are you overcoming these challenges as to the society Muslim movement? Thank you. Thank you. So I actually would like to get both of your perspectives on that. Now, hold on, I'll come back to you, but Kareem, I know that you have a mechanism at DHS. It's an incident response team. And if you could, it's a little technical, but if you could just describe to our viewers in Ramallah and around the world what that is. So after an attack like Orlando, what does your team do to respond? So after Orlando, within 24 hours of the attack happening, what we have the capacity of doing and what we did do is to be able to invite all voices in society. Civil society, as I said, is a very robust, very large sector in the United States. And we're able to engage them. Sometimes as the incident is happening. So in 2012, when we had the Boston, unfortunately the Boston Marathon attacks, and it was during the situation the following morning that we're able to do this incident response where we are able to engage directly with communities at the very local level and include the local police that are investigating the FBI, the U.S. Department of Justice, other federal government agencies, state agencies, local agencies, directly engaging with civil society, including the Muslim American community, but not limited or exclusive to the Muslim American community. Now, what type of information are you providing? Number one, we need to clarify. I mean, we had a question about the media earlier, obviously they're doing their job, but we want to get past that and be able to engage one-on-one with people who are impacted, communities who are impacted. One thing that we always stress, and a number of incidents were referenced, we always stress there's no such thing as a vulnerable community. It is not the responsibility of only one community if a member of that community chooses to engage in an act of violence. There are vulnerable individuals and we need to try to get to them and help them. And so one of our primary message in activating this mechanism is to make sure it is very clear from the U.S. Department of Homeland Security from the federal government on down that this is communicated very clearly. That way we would help avoid, hopefully, the backlash against communities. When an individual acts, it's the individual's responsibility. It is not whether they happen to be of Muslim background or any other background or political affiliation or religious affiliation. And that is our primary message, immediately post any incident. Now, so after days and weeks pass, but the impact of these types of attacks remain. So after Orlando, what's the Muslim American community? How are they dealing with this tragedy? You know, it's, like you referenced earlier on, it's been a difficult past few weeks for all of us as Americans. Post the Orlando shooting, American Muslims have really come together, but not as just one community. We've come together with our other faith allies. We've come together with our other civil society partners, whether it's the Jewish American community, the LGBT community. It's been, you know, the silver lining to this horrible tragic incident is that America came together. All communities came together to say, you know, this is absolutely unacceptable. This was a disgusting, you know, incident that happened in Orlando. We will not allow terrorism to define us. We are Americans and we're stronger when we're united. And I think that, you know, for example, after San Bernardino, the attack on San Bernardino in California, American Muslims came together to have a rally against extremism with the mayor of Los Angeles, with the mayor of San Bernardino and our interfaith allies to say that we will not allow these acts to continue in the name of our faith and that again, we are united when we're together and we won't allow these acts to divide us. You know, we had this amazing event, the Genaza, the funeral of an American icon, I mean an American Muslim icon, an international icon, Muhammad Ali. And it was such an amazing event because you had a Muslim individual whose life is really celebrated by all of America. And it really was this amazing, amazing time. And I think a lot of us in government, outside of government, we were very excited. It was, of course, sad that he had passed away, but it was a chance to celebrate his life and what he meant. And then we had this awful, awful tragedy. You know, and I know a lot of people were really, really upset and frustrated. And I know, I personally was really, really angry that this attack occurred and, you know, the individual's families were impacted and over and over again, you see these types of tragedies. Not just in the United States, you know, around the world. And, you know, I was quite sad, you know, that this is, you know, there was this amazing opportunity and then it was just washed away by this act of senseless violence. And of course the people who were most impacted were the victims themselves, which is important to keep in mind. Ramallah, I think, oh, I think we have another question from Ramallah, so let's take advantage of your time. Go ahead. Hello, compared to other minorities, how active are the Muslim minorities compared to Irish, Italians and the other minorities if you have numbers? Well, what do you think? And in addition, that's a terrific question about how active Muslims are compared to other communities. But also, Hoda, you touched on something about the Valley of Coalition. And so, Kira, if you could talk about the fact that, you know, sometimes as a minority community, you have to work with other communities, so go ahead. So, you know, we actually don't have the exact number of American Muslims living in this country. We estimate between three and seven million. And the reason for that is the US government through the Census Bureau, they don't take numbers of Americans living in this country based on their faith. And so, these are all done through other independent studies. So, in terms of, you know, between three and seven million American Muslims and how active they are, I would say that we still have some work to do in terms of getting involved in the civic and the political process. But compared to a pre-911 America, I would say that we are quite involved in the issues. We're quite involved in the political process. We have more and more American Muslims running for elected seats. We have more and more American Muslims who are in front of the camera telling stories of their own experiences in America as an American Muslim. And we have more young American Muslims who are looking to be leaders for America, not just the American Muslim community. I can't speak to comparing to other communities, but when we engage other communities to build coalitions on issues, we see that we are a very vibrant civil society that groups do come together to work on these issues that impact America. One thing I think it's important to note is that the Muslim American experience is a successful story. Muslim Americans, especially before 9-11, if you look at the statistics that are available through, not through the government because we don't look at that, it's a story of success. The average Muslim American has a slightly higher average income than the average citizen. They have a slightly higher level of education than the average citizen. So we are a success story. We've achieved the American dream as a community. When we came under the spotlight as Muslim Americans after 9-11, as it alluded to, we were able to stand up very quickly and rise up to the challenge. Despite those small numbers, remember the United States of America is over 300 million people and we're talking about only three to seven million people. So with that population, actually the community's been able to do a lot, especially working with interfaith partners, the communities that were referencing the questions, other communities who've gone through similar experiences throughout the history of the United States. That's why coalition building is so important. Now, let's get some more questions from our online viewers. Nick asks, how important is it for minority groups to see themselves represented in government, popular culture, and in what way can increasing minority representation help combat the bigotry that's harmful to those communities? I think it's really important for minority communities to see themselves reflected in folks who hold positions of power, who are in front of the television. I think it makes it easier, especially for younger Americans, to visualize their path to a similar position. And so it is important to see American Muslims holding high levels, high positions in government. It's important to see American Muslims as journalists, as storytellers, as entrepreneurs in the tech sector and other sectors. Again, because it normalizes that experience that as a young American, if I see Shahraq at the United States Department of State, I know that I too can make it there. So I do think that it's very important, especially because it combats the assumption that we can't hold those positions. You know, your response makes me think of two things. First, I remember when I joined government almost 12, 13 years ago, there weren't a lot of Arab or Muslim or South Asian individuals serving. Now you walk the halls, the White House, at the Department of State, where I work now, and you see some women are wearing hijabs, you see people of different backgrounds. And what's really cool is that, you know, I'm the special representative to Muslim communities. You know, I am myself a Muslim. But what's really cool is when you see other people, you know, who are working on European policy or arms control or climate. And to me, that's a real measure of success, is that of course your background and your faith reflects your beliefs and things like that. But I think the real measure of success and the real integration of communities is when you're working across the issues. And that's saying, you know, with respect to popular culture, you know, Nick, your question's a good one. I think it's great that you now have TV shows and series where you have Arab and Muslim characters, but their character is in the background. I mean, it's relevant, but it's also in the background. It's not, it doesn't total. And I think that's, you know, to me, we're gonna get there, you know. Now, the next question is from the city of my birth, from the American Senate in Karachi. What is the importance of interfaith work? Do you think that connecting interfaith activities in the U.S. and Pakistan is different? And what kind of challenges do you face in connecting interfaith activities in the U.S. and how do you handle them? You know, as civil society representative, Kareem, if you have some thoughts as well, but you know, as a civil society representative, that's done interfaith work, you know, what's the challenge there? Well, I think the challenge is that, you know, sometimes people don't wanna come around the table because we think that agreement is a precondition to engaging in a dialogue. And that's not the case. We wanna be able to sit down around the table and start the conversation. We need to be present in these conversations. We need to be present in these circles. So I do think that, you know, interfaith work is very important. Again, going back to the idea that we need to all build that support system with our allies, so that not just in times of tragedy when we need our allies, but in times of good as well so that we can take a moment. And I don't think that we do this enough as communities in general to take a moment and celebrate the successes that we have had. And again, even just looking not too far back to the funeral of Muhammad Ali, I think that, you know, all communities, America came together to celebrate the life of the champ, the greatest of all time. And I think that that was a beautiful representation of America coming together, regardless of faith, regardless of background, to celebrate something good. You know, I was actually in Karachi on an official visit earlier this year. And I had a chance to engage, you know, Christian communities, of course, the Muslim communities and a number of minority communities. And my message to Pakistan was that the United States has every race, religion, sect, nationality, ethnicity, tribe as part of our citizenry. That's a national asset. That makes our country stronger. I really believe that. And Pakistan and other countries around the world, there's diversity, and diversity is a strength. It's not a challenge, it's an opportunity. Right, we're living in a globalized world where a group think is a bad thing. You want to have a diversity of ideas and opinions. And I really do think that certainly the United States, we can do a better job, we have our challenges. But I think other countries, including Pakistan, should celebrate their diversity and view it as a strength. Now, the next question is also from the American Center in Karachi. And they ask, is there a difference between Muslims in the West and Muslims in the East? And what can we learn from Muslims living in the West? So, Karim, you were born in Syria. And then you were raised in West Virginia, which is a very, you know, middle America. It is. So, you know, you've had a foot in both worlds. So, you know, what do you think about the differences? Are there differences? And what about this notion of East versus West? I, based on my personal experience, I really don't buy that argument. I think we're all humans, number one. We have certain beliefs, including those of us who happen to be Muslim. Our general approach to our faith is very personal. Islam is a personal faith. And so, unlike our friends, for example, who may have different ways of going about believing and practicing their faiths, Islam does happen to be a very personal interpretation. Schools of thoughts are very diverse in Islam as a religion, broadly speaking. And so, you will see that diversity in the religion, just like we see the diversity in our country with races or sects or other political or social beliefs. Same thing globally speaking. I mean, everybody, obviously, there's the concept of umla as in Islam, sort of the global Muslim community. But that does not necessarily mean. And if you look at the history of our faith, we've always had changes. We've always had challenges. We've always had these conversations of is there an East versus West? Is there really a right way of going about proceeding and believing in one's faith? In the US, there is something called an American Islam. The Muslim community has been able to adapt their ability to live in this society in a multi-faith, multi-ethnic, democratic, pluralistic society, while at the same time holding on to the core values and core beliefs that makes someone a strong believer in Islam. And this goes to speak to really countering the idea of Islamophobia that we've been tackling, especially more recently in the US. There is an American Islam. We know that Islam is not an alien. There's no West, East. It's nothing new as it alluded to. Muslims have been coming to this country since before this country gained independence. So it's nothing alien. And I think that's something that we always try to emphasize me personally as an American Muslim, even as someone in government. Going back to the earlier question that we had. What's very important for us is to make sure that in those hallways of government, in the federal government, someone knows that there's a Muslim American colleague who they can speak with about issues of the day or matters that they're addressing because they can gain more information and at the end of the day, reach a better informed decision. As a diplomat, as a government official, I'm not qualified. And frankly, I'm prohibited from making statements on what religion is, what religion is not, what Islam is and what Islam is not. But I was, a Muslim Sheikh in Alam once told me that religion or Islam is like a river, like a pure stream that's very clear. And it's so clear that it reflects the boundary. So the reflection in Syria or in Jordan or in Pakistan is gonna be a little bit different than the reflection in the United States. But that doesn't mean that the religion is any less pure. It's just that it's so pure that the reflection is different. And I thought, again, I'm not qualified to judge that, but I really liked that in the way he described it. Now, back to Ramallah. I think we have another question. So please go ahead. Okay, so here in Palestine, we noticed that U.S. presented that with the U.S. government gets the help and support and financial aid and other forms to the Palestinians. But we don't see help coming from the Muslim community in the U.S. specifically. You know, I'll actually answer that question. So a few months ago, I was in Istanbul, Turkey. And we were at a, what was called a global donors forum. So we had this World Humanitarian Summit dealing with this ongoing refugee crisis. And afterwards, there was a global donors forum. And it was put on by the Council of Muslim Philanthropists. I'm getting the name wrong, but essentially it's a group of Muslim philanthropists. And I was asked to give a talk. And one thing that I addressed was that, look, it's important for wealthy individuals to give and for agencies like the U.S. agency for international development and the BRITs and the others have these government-sponsored aid agencies. And of course, you have these amazing charities as well that do amazing work. But there's a real opportunity for the growing and rising Muslim middle class. And now the story was, you know, we all remember you growing up and there's a donation mosque and a mosque. And you give to that, right? And you hope that it's going to people who need it, right? But now, with the advent of technology and the advent of a global giving platforms, there's an opportunity for the Muslim middle class in the United States and around the world to be a little bit more strategic. And that goes back to the point that's made in Ramallah that, look, you know, one thing, one way to ask for donations for support is to tell your stories. We have these incredible crowdsourcing platforms now. There's a really good one founded by two American Muslims that's called LaunchGood.com. And after the San Bernardino attack, they raised almost a quarter of a million dollars to help victims. And they're now looking to expand overseas as well. So one thing that I would say to the friends in Ramallah and elsewhere is that if you're looking for support, looking to raise money for various efforts and things like that, it goes back to the point that Hoda made about telling your story. I think there's a lot of people in the Muslim and frankly, non-Muslim community that'd be very interested but don't know how. And I think the power of a story is one thing that can actually make a difference. I remember seeing on the news this image of the Syrian father holding his child, selling pencils, just trying to make a living, right? And that image is seared into my brain. And because that image was shared, it humanized the refugee crisis and people actually gave. Now that's not to say that we should only give when we see an image, but the reality is that when you see issues, whether it's in the Palestinian territories or in Syria, and it's only something that you read about but you can't feel. Humans were emotive beings. Emotions and visual representations are important. So one thing I would say again to Ramallah is to tell your stories, share your stories and leverage the power of technology. Now it looks like we have another question, Ramallah. So go ahead. My question involves what role does the Muslim community play and in engaging with the Jewish minority in America? Like are there other bridges or are we working on changing the image? Not like, of course I'm speaking from a Palestinian perspective. I'm out here in Palestine. And I'm thinking of all the Jewish Americans that come to Israel and have no idea about what's going on in Palestine, have no idea about what the West Bank looks like. So what's that role for the Muslim community in engaging with the Jewish community in America? I'd love to get both of your inputs, but hold on, why don't we start with you? Sure. You know, I think it's important that American Muslim communities engage with the Jewish community, particularly on Israeli-Palestinian issues. That's not to say that we are coming up with our own policies on how we envision you know, the future of that region for those two territories. But I think in order to again humanize and sort of normalize this conversation for people to come together and not be so emotive and not have the conversation be driven by our emotions, I think is really important. I think we're getting to that point. We're having more and more of these conversations. We're coming together because ultimately I think both of our communities just want peace. I think we're in a time when, you know, we're tired of seeing the casualties. We're tired of seeing, you know, the violence. And so it is very important for us to have that conversation to normalize what's going on, to humanize those stories, and to bring it here to these shores, to America. Yeah, well said. Even outside of the context of the Israel-Palestine conversation, what we have seen in civil society between the Muslim American communities and Jewish American groups is a building of bridges because these are communities that have been impacted by very similar issues related to civil rights challenges, related to discrimination. The Jewish community in the U.S. has always had to tackle this issue going down decades. And so they've been actually tremendous allies from what I could tell of the Muslim American community in helping that Muslim American community get past these challenges through the interfaith efforts that society's been able to develop. As a result of that, I think there's becoming more of an understanding of some of the challenging issues, including issues related to Palestine and Israel. And look, we're trying to do our part in government. I sit in the Office of Religion and Global Affairs at the State Department. And what's great is we have a special representative for Religion and Global Affairs who happens to be Christian. We have a special envoy for monitoring and combating anti-Semitism, Ira Forman, who's Jewish, and then myself. And we actually took a trip together. So Sean Casey is our envoy for Religion and Global Affairs. Ira Forman and myself. We went to Israel and the Palestinian Territories. And we went to Jerusalem. And as a Muslim, I got to pray at Al-Aqsa. But I also visited the temple. I visited synagogues. I visited the cremation valley and Christian churches and things like that. And I think that sent a signal that the United States, that we're together on this and that we view the value of engaging communities separately but also together. And look, I have to say that when it comes to anti-Muslim bigotry and anti-refugee sentiment, which sadly does occur, if we're honest, it does occur in the United States. It's not the full story of the United States, but it does occur. What I like sharing are the 1,000 rabbis that wrote a letter in support of Syrian Muslim refugees. Just very close to where I live, in McLean, Virginia, a synagogue hosted Syrian Muslim refugees for Iftar. We have mosques that share space with synagogues and things like that. And so there are these political differences and foreign policy. But that's not the only conversation Muslims and Jews and Christians are having. And I think there's so many coming out. I look to places like in Europe where you have rising anti-Semitism and anti-Muslim bigotry. And one thing that we try to do is actually, we funded a program where we brought Muslim and Arab and Jewish and Roma and other minority groups together. And we did these civil rights and civil liberties training workshops just about how do you organize. And we didn't do it, but we brought over people like you from the activist community who have these amazing skills in organizing and in advocacy and media training. And the great thing about it, and this goes back to the question Ramallah, was that you had Jews and Muslims who were working on the exact same issues of discrimination, of alienation, and they had never been in a room before. And so I think that's the value in government that ultimately civil society needs to lead, but we can help convene and we can help support. So I want to thank our friend Ramallah for asking that terrific question. Now, we have time for one last question. And I think it's one that's on the mind of all of us. And it's a point that I make over and over again. And it comes from, I believe it's from Karachi. Maybe it's from Ramallah, I'm not sure, but it's an important question nonetheless. And it's that the majority of ISIS victims are Muslim. Yet many have noted that victims in the Muslim world, such as those in Iraq and Saudi Arabia, receive far less international sympathy than those in places like Paris or Brussels. There are fewer expressions of solidarity, fewer Facebook posts, candlelight vigils, et cetera. Why do you think this is? And I'll tell you, my boss, Secretary of State, John F. Carey, actually, we had an E-reception last night that we hosted, you both were there, and he actually talked about this fact and took it head on. But Kareem, hold up, do you agree that there is a difference? And why do you think there is a difference? Because there's no question that when it comes to terrorism, the overwhelming majority of victims are Muslims themselves. But Kareem, why don't we start with you and hold up and then why don't you close us out. Sure. That's really echoing what Secretary Carey said and what we've seen. That's an unfortunate reality of the fact that there is still an overall approach of, well, these communities are somehow more vulnerable, both to potential recruitment to terrorist activities, including those represented by Daesh. And then they're also, as a result of that, sort of normalized as victims. And that should not be the case. I think we can do a lot more. We're trying to do our best from a domestic perspective in the United States government, including from the Department of Homeland Security, to try to promote the notion that there are no vulnerable communities, that we are all victims and in fact it is correct that Muslims are a majority of Daesh's victims. They're a majority of Al-Qaeda's victims. They're a great majority of the terrorist activity that goes on globally. It's not because they're Muslim. The attackers are not, it's because they're Muslim. They represent nothing of Islam. Daesh represents nothing of Islam or a state for that matter, quote, unquote. So I think our position as US government is to advocate that point every opportunity we get. And from a homeland security perspective, in order to build a society that's resilient to all threats, regardless of the nature of that threat, our job is to make sure that these communities don't end up being categorized as being vulnerable, because they're in fact the ones that are most suffering as a result of those attacks. I'm sorry, I think we've run out of time. But no, not at all. I think that's a great point to end on. I want to thank Kareem and I want to thank Hoda for your participation. But most of all, I want to thank our online audience. Ramallah, thank you so much for being with us. The American Center in Karachi. We all know we're all mourning the death of Abdul-Sathar-e-Idi Sahib, was an amazing humanitarian. And so we're mourning and in grief with you and our friends in Karachi. And around the world, everybody that's listened in, sent questions in, thank you so much for participating. This is the first of a series on civil rights and civil liberties in the United States. And we're going to keep doing this because this is a terrific interactive session. So I want to thank our participants around the world, our embassies and consulate posts around the world that help organize people. Our special guest, Kareem Shorah from the Department of Homeland Security and Hoda Hawa from the Muslim Public Affairs Council. Thank you so much. Thank you. It's a pleasure. Thank you.