 And welcome to the Art of Charm, Joel Coleman. Thank you so much for having me. So we just want to kick this off and for our audience, we'd like to get them to know you a bit better. So how did you get into the fitness journey and how did that lead you into the fitness business? Yeah. Thank you guys so much for having me. This is such a treat. Yeah. So actually I started out just in fitness growing up, obviously sports background, went to school for exercise science, ended up getting my master's in nutrition. And I spent my entire 20s doing fitness competition. So I don't know how much you guys know about that, but it's pretty extreme. And I did that for about five or six years. I was kind of a recovering perfectionist. So what better way to prove myself and have a perfect body, get up on stage and be judged on that. So it was a little bit insane, but I ended up starting my business at jillfit.com as a blog in 2010, when kind of like the golden age of blogging, when people are just kind of reading that and there wasn't Instagram and stuff. And it was at the beginning of social media. People really didn't know how to use it yet. And jillfit at the time was just kind of day in the life kind of journaling for me. And I blogged every day for two years. And over that time we grew a really, you know, kind of like a podcast, I guess, a really dedicated readership for people who wanted to get up on stage or have some extreme fat loss or weight loss or something like that. So we were doing a lot of one-on-one meal plans at that point. And it was about a year and a half into the business. I had hired on a team of like five additional coaches. We were doing really well, but we were totally maxed out. It was like a great kind of problem to have, but I realized that I didn't know anything about business. I knew how to be a fitness pro. I knew how to get lean. I knew how to help my clients, but I had no idea how to do business. And so at that point I kind of did a deep dive into everything online marketing, trying it like sales, trying to figure out automation, creating courses and things like that. And at that point I didn't have the money to hire a business coach. So I launched my first business course to make the money to, I didn't know everything, but I knew at least what had gotten us to a six-figure business within 18 months. So at that point I launched my very first business course to pay for my first business coach. And since then it's just been an evolution and it's been just a great ride. And what I love about your site and the blog is not only just fitness and not only just business, but also mindset. And I think that is often a missing piece for a lot of us. We get so focused on external goals and we don't realize that, well it's going to take the right mindset to get there. Totally. And I think that's one of the biggest things is, you know, I talk to my clients who want to lose weight or they want to change their body, want to get stronger and it can't just be, I need to lose weight because we all know like weight loss isn't that, it's not rocket science. You just like don't eat and you exercise, right? But we know that that's not sustainable. And we also know that that alone isn't healthy. So it's like cool. Can you also like yourself? Can you also like how you look at whatever size? And then do kind of the weight loss or fat loss transformation from that point. And so, you know, you can't try and lose weight because you hate your body. You have to kind of figure out a way to enjoy the process or otherwise it's not going to be sustainable. So we kind of noticed that about a year and a half in. And what we noticed was we were giving people meal plans, workout programs, and they were losing weight, but they started gaining it all back because they'd lose like 20 pounds. They'd gain back 30. They'd lose, you know, 30 pounds, gain back 40. And I was like, damn, like this is a huge disservice. And we really took it on. We're like, this is our problem. You know, the fact that this is happening, what in our methods is not working. And at that point, I kind of felt like it was irresponsible to give people these off the shelf meal plans that they just like had to follow or else they didn't know how to eat. We had people literally texting us from the grocery store unable to make a decision about ketchup without texting us. And I'm like, as much as I think that's kind of like, you know, kind of crazy or psycho, but I was like, it's our issue that they're doing this. And so totally revised things. Now we teach something called moderation 365, which is how to eat the same on Saturday that you do on Monday, which is always hard, especially come from a dieting background. You go, oh, you know, I need to be on point. I need to be tight. I need to have all my tupperware is ready to go. And so I teach people, I think we're talking off air that I haven't actually cooked since 2011. And so I teach people how to be able to eat healthy wherever they are. And that's kind of a mindset shift, especially if the women I work with, they have 10, 15, 20 years of yo-yo dieting. So even we were having that conversation before we started and we were just talking about intermittent fasting and the American breakfast. And it's certainly people need educated on these things. And for a lot of people, it's like, well, if I just lose the 20 pounds, then I'm good. And then they stop all the work and they stopped at the discipline that got them there. And it's like, well, no, this is you're now educating and educating yourself and your body on what you're going to need to maintain this. And so yeah, there's going to getting them up to speed on how that's going to happen. Yeah. And I think when we're seeing results, we're like, oh my God, I could do this forever. It feels so good. I'm losing weight. I feel light. But then you actually have to ask yourself, do I even like these foods? Like these are some of the questions we don't ask. Can I see myself 10 years from now eating six times a day, seven times a day, not taking a vacation because I'm scared of what food I'm going to be exposed to? You have to ask yourself, longevity-wise, is this possible? And I think sometimes we just like the way it feels that we don't actually ask ourselves, can I see myself doing this forever? And so that's kind of the hint of, OK, is this going to be sustainable? And you might lose slower. You might transform your body at a slower pace, but you know that a year from now, any weight that you do lose, you're going to have, you're going to, it's going to be off forever. Yeah, it's a lifestyle change. And I kind of hate that term because it's been so overused, like just change your lifestyle, have it change. But that really is, it's not sexy. What's sexy is the 21 day detox and the seven day jump starts and like those kind of things. And it's fine. But I think we all, I think you have to go extreme a little bit before you can come back to the middle. And that's kind of what I help people do. Obviously, your lifestyle up until that point of the decision to lose weight has led to this problem in the first place. So you're going to have to undo those bad habits and start to build better relationships and better decision-making processes to handle all these things. Because let's be honest, who wants to live a life of chicken and broccoli and not traveling? You want to be able to enjoy your life, too, with the process. Now, what's also fascinating about your journey is just how public you've been about everything, starting a blog, blogging every day, documenting your own inner struggles and growing the business, obviously attracts fans, but also detracts some haters and people who may not like your viewpoint. What do you use mentally to overcome some of the negativity that comes with leading such a public life? Yeah, such a great question. You know, I'm like kind of a weirdo in that I do really appreciate trolls from the perspective of I always get to learn. So at the beginning, I really I would get, you know, trolls or haters or comments on YouTube videos and stuff like that. You guys know how it is, and I would really take them on and it would really like hurt my feelings and it would take me days and maybe even a week to like kind of get over it and process it. Because I think that it hit the insecurity that maybe I already had. So if I had any insecurities of I'm a fraud or I'm feeling like an imposter or I'm not good enough to do this, if you have a hater or troll or even someone who you know personally, you know, kind of disagree with you publicly, it feels really almost threatening and you kind of take it on. And until I had enough reps to see that my methods actually were working and that they have some confidence in what I was teaching, I really did take it on. It took me a long time. And now when I get blowback, sometimes it's really I don't know. Like I'm kind of like, oh, okay. I didn't realize I was coming off that way. And so it has helped me get better at clarifying my message. And so I don't necessarily agree with it or have to take it on, but I do see it as an opportunity to get clear in my communication of the thing I'm trying to teach. And so I don't know. I mean, for me, it's good practice. And I actually personally like love debate. So I'm like, cool, let's actually have a conversation. I think it's rare to be able to have a conversation on social media, but I enjoy it. Yeah. It's usually just yelling. Yeah. I mean, also when you think about it, it's really not that scary. It's like someone on they're just not it's a person on keyboard somewhere else in the world. You know, so when you think of it that way, it kind of dissipates the the the anxiety of it or, you know, like the the threat of it. Yeah. And it's it's funny because I feel like a lot of us, our first instinct is to just ignore it entirely. Yeah. Like there is lessons to be gained from the feedback we're getting. And not all of them have to be tearing you down. They could be constructive and ways of thinking, oh, maybe I need to change my presentation or, oh, I didn't think of that viewpoint. I hadn't brought that into my consideration. You know, one of the things that's interesting, sorry to cut you off, it's like, you know, especially when you talk about you guys probably get this too when you talk personal development, sometimes you're not thinking about, you know, you're not thinking about like mental health necessarily. So sometimes people go, well, it's under, you know, I understand that you everyone has a personal choice, and that's important. You can choose your attitude, you can choose your actions. But when you're dealing with mental illness, like you don't always have a choice. And so that those are some of the things that I don't always think about when you talk about personal responsibility and like, you know, being able to change your life. And and then you're like, oh, okay, cool. I never saw it through that lens. But now I kind of see it doesn't mean I'm going to change my message necessarily, but it's something to consider. Well, there's so much negativity online. It's hard to decipher what is what is teaching me something? What is the drunk guy who at 3am who just fired off some random comment because he was upset from going out that evening. And then who who is actually giving you advice like, hey, you're actually wrong here. Here's the research to to show you that. I hope you take on this new development. It's like it's it's difficult because everyone's just yelling at you. And it's all coming on at you at the same time. And there's no context to any of it. And it's up to you to decipher what that is. And most of what's being said, to be honest, wouldn't be said face to face. They wouldn't come up to you. But how weird would that be at the grocery store? Someone's like, you suck. And you're like, wait, what? Wow, trying to check out over here. So funny. We would never do that in person. And just to add to that, the other stuff that's going on. And we were talking about this earlier as well. AJ and I of building this company for 12 years, you've been doing the podcast. How long did you say? A year and a half. So there's a lot of information that's going on out there. And so there's other things about you and your views and where you stand that people don't agree with. And because they don't agree with that, they're looking for other things to nitpick at you out as well. And it's like, where is these things coming from? So it's it's it's so much feedback. And it's coming from so many places and it's hard to decide for what. It is an interesting space to be in where you are a creator and you're putting your creation out into the world, whatever that looks like. And you just don't you're living in a different place. Like, for example, we're all in Los Angeles and I feel like everyone who lives here kind of has like a very just open attitude, open minded. And then so you're surprised sometimes when you get blowback in a different place or from kind of a different space that you hadn't anticipated. And so, yeah, it's interesting navigating. I enjoy it. But to your point, when it's just cruel or disrespecting someone in my community, then it's just a lead in van. Right. And I think another difficult part for us is we just have our own lens and our own story to fall back on. You know, I can't put myself in every single social media followers shoes and understand their journey. I'm trying to share my journey and some things that have worked for me might work great for you and some things might not. And I also feel a lot of times in the influencer creator space, there's this perception that we're perfect. We're infallible and we do a good job of hiding some of our fallacies and inadequacies on social media. So it sort of, you know, continues this path. But being open, being vulnerable, being honest about some of your struggles is really how you can connect with your tribe, with your audience. And you had a very public break up. And unfortunately, there wasn't a fair evolved. And when it comes to this side of the coin, you know, this month, we've been focused on navigating relationships. We started the month talking about relationships in a new city, moving into a new career and taking on more responsibility at work and then talking about, OK, in our romantic life, when is the right time to move in together, be exclusive? How do we handle money and what happens when we're drifting apart? So today we want to talk about what happens on the other side of things when the relationship that you thought was this amazing thing and even publicly outsiders are looking at it as saying this is incredible. But it isn't working out and it has to end. And unfortunately, relationships do end. Yeah, I mean, it's it's so multifaceted. And so just to give everyone a little bit of background, I was married for 10 years and I was married to someone who I was actually in business with as well. And we kind of came up together. So as Jill Fitt was building, so was his company, metabolic effect, and I was working as well with me. And we were just growing our businesses and, you know, it was kind of like one of those traditional kind of like love stories. Like, I can't believe I found my person. And it was just I don't think anyone ever gets married or gets into a relationship thinking that at some point it's going to end. So I think we just took a lot of things for granted. Like, we were working together, you know, we're living together. We were traveling together. We were just spending almost every second of the day together pretty much. And we loved it and we loved it for a long time. But I think when you're in that close proximity to the person and you're not having conversations around intentions, honesty, you're letting a lot of resentments build and things like that. I mean, typical stuff, right? Like, the story is no different than anyone else's kind of breakup story. But it was a little bit different in that I actually found out about my ex-husband's affair after it was over for about a year and a half. So it was just like weird and, you know, I'm a strong woman. So I think like in the back of my mind, in theory, I was like, oh, if my husband ever cheats, I'm definitely leaving. And that's kind of like the narrative now. But for me, it was kind of this weird place where he wasn't involved with the woman. And meanwhile, it had been a long-term affair. I'd like fallen in love with someone else. So it was definitely like all of the emotional stuff too. And I was in a position where I didn't know if I should stay or go. Like the cultural narrative, at least now, is that you leave. That's just like the only option. Otherwise, you don't respect yourself. But we still wanted to try and work on it. And in fact, actually more than half of couples who go through infidelity end up staying together. I don't know how much you guys talked about infidelity on the podcast. No, we haven't. Okay, cool. I'm happy to just go all in on it because this is a lot of what we talk about in ours. And so that was kind of an interesting place to be. And one of the things that happened as a result of that is we ended up staying together for another year. But I realized that this thing over here wasn't solid. So I started traveling a lot on my own. Started, I lived in a Malthy Coast for like three weeks. I was in Sydney for a month. Like I went to Paris for three weeks with girlfriends. And I was kind of like, OK, this thing isn't solid. I need to batten down the hatches and figure out how to be alone if that's what I'm going to be doing. So kind of traveled a good amount towards the end of that year. His family and he and I went to one on your trip to Europe for like nine weeks. And we said, you know, let's just not talk about our relationship while we're here with all these people, let's just like have a great time. And at this point, we were still best friends. And still it wasn't like moment to moment bad. We ended up having like a great time, came home from that trip and had a series of conversations and nothing had really changed. And to give everyone kind of context, the reason why his affair ended was because he caught his lover with another guy. So it was like this like kind of very like meta almost situation. And so he was going through a heartbreak. And so he was still really caught up emotionally with the other woman. And so I'm sitting here being like, cool, you're chasing her. I'm chasing you. No one's chasing me. Like, what am I doing here? Like how things are not really changing. I was willing to work on it. He wasn't really in an emotional space that he could. So within a week, I literally packed up all of my stuff. I gave myself half my stuff away to Goodwill, packed up my car and drove across country to LA. So like within a week was just had a new lease in Santa Monica and was out here. And at that point, things were OK between us. But that year, that next year, things were just like really tumultuous. And so the whole point of kind of bringing this up is the cultural script is I'm the victim, he's the perpetrator, right? And that's kind of like the only thing we always like end there. I actually went to Barnes and Noble to start like looking at books for like, what do you do after an affair? How do you repair a relationship? And all the advice was just stuff that made me feel really out of my power. It was like, he needs to pay and, you know, he needs to apologize. And like all these kind of things where it was all about him choosing the relationship or him choosing me and that made me feel really powerless. And so I was like, it can't just be this where I'm just the victim and like all men cheat and it can't just be that narrative. And I don't want to be the kind of person who doesn't believe that things can last. So for that year after I was really bitter. I was super resentful, just really hurt. I don't know if you guys are familiar with Byron Katie's work. Yeah. Yeah. So I went to, she has a four day live event here in LA. I'd been in LA for six months, didn't know anybody. So it was like super lonely trying to be like learning how to be single and alone and all that kind of stuff went to her four day event. And she has this thing called it's called Judge Your Neighbor Worksheet where you have someone in your life. And if you guys listen to this and you do have, whether it's a partner or if it's a friend, co-worker, whatever, I recommend doing this exercise. It's called Judge Your Neighbor where you write down, like you just judge the heck out of them. You write down like all the worst things about them. And then you question those statements. So mine were like, and my ex-husband's name is Jade. It was Jade is an adolescent. Jade is stubborn. Jade is self-righteous, right? Like all these kind of things, right? And so I just went to town and then you turn them around and you ask like, okay, you can turn around to self. So it's I am self-righteous. I am stubborn. And I was like, oh my God, this is me. Like this is how I've been the last six months, right? I've been here in LA and I've been so mad at him. Meanwhile, he's like back in North Carolina, like not caring. And he's doing his, he's carrying on. And I was like, I don't want to be this person anymore. I don't want to be hurt. I don't want to be angry. I don't want to be resentful. And just like that, I was just like, I'm done. And at that point, he actually moved out to LA in a different part of LA. And we started having like a friendship and I started treating him with more compassion. And he started doing his own work and he started really doing a 180 and having a relationship to honesty and to integrity. And we could have conversations and like we just talked about everything that we didn't talk about for the years before. And now he's one of my best friends and there's nothing that, like we can't share nothing romantic but there's nothing that we kind of can't share because it's all on the table. And so it was a really like tough thing that had to happen in order to get to this kind of more evolved place. And so yeah, that's kind of the short end of it. And so, you know, I think it's, and I look back when you say unfortunately there's infidelity, it's like yes, but at the same time, fortunately, because if it wasn't for that, I wouldn't be here with you guys today. Right, and it's a part of your journey that's now you've learned from taking those lessons. And I think for most of our listeners, they're probably wondering what was the moment that you would realize that he had changed and it was worth pursuing a relationship because I feel like having moved across country and now trying to start over, a lot of our listeners are probably wondering, well, it seems like you're back to settling. So what was that moment? Or maybe it wasn't a moment, but how did you know, okay, he's changed and this is worth a friendship? Yeah, I love that you asked that. And so one of the things that we didn't really talk about was the fact that this was public, that was like fairly public, because we talked a lot about our relationship and we were kind of like this power couple running these businesses together. And so I was so embarrassed and I had so much shame around the affair because like I couldn't share it on social media. I was trying to just like, I didn't even tell my best friends that I moved to LA. Like I literally called my parents while I was on the drive. I was like, oh, I left the relationship. Like I was so embarrassed, didn't want anyone to know. And of course, people were following me on social media. I was like, what are you, do you live in LA now? And I'm like, what? Like I was just not, I didn't answer any questions. And a lot of people are really attached to our story. I actually didn't talk about it publicly for about a year and a half. People were asking me questions I never responded. I was just very like, I was still trying to figure it out. So how could I even have a lesson at that point? You know, so, and so we did, he kind of made that 180, but it was through our constant desire to show up to conversations. And I don't want to belittle this part because I think if you're listening and you're going, well, you don't understand my ex is an asshole. And I'm like, okay, cool. Maybe there's no hope there. But what both of us committed to, and I think it's because we were just good friends at a base level, is we just kept showing up to the conversation and we were tripping over ourselves trying to communicate because neither one of us had really done that that well. Obviously that's kind of why things, there was a rift in the relationship. And so we kept showing up and, you know, and we just would say the thing that we needed to say and like one person would storm out and then the other person would leave and then they come back. And so we had these like this year and a half of kind of the willingness to try to figure it out and try to understand. And luckily he's someone who's also into personal development. So he was confused. He's like, wait, I don't even, he didn't understand it to himself because he's like, I love Jill. How can I love two people at once? That was confusing. And so this may not be possible for someone listening, but it really helped me become a better communicator because it's two parts of communication, right? There's first knowing how you feel. Most people don't even know they can't even name the emotion. And then the second is, you know, being able to actually speak it and then let the other person have their response, right? We're always trying to manage how the other person is gonna receive it. We don't want them to be mad, disappointed, whatever. And so I practice just like sharing my truth and like letting the chips fall and he did the same. And we have a question here from Eric, one of our listeners and it is our Q and A episode. And I think it falls in line with this exact feeling is I get a lot out of your podcast, but sometimes I catch myself trying to mentally apply your tips to other people in order to fix them. And I'd like to know some tricks to keeping my mind constantly focused on fixing only myself. I love the show, great advice. And I feel like for a lot of people listening, you know, in your shoes, they're like, okay, well, we gotta fix this other person. He's the problem, right? My business partner and my lover. And it's all him and his action. So how do I fix him? And as you said, it gives away your power, right? And there is a role that we all play in this communication breakdown. So how is it that you went about fixing yourself first and not just trying to fix him? Yeah, I think there is, especially when you're in something like this that feels so like high stakes, like an infidelity situation, feels so scary. It is hard to take responsibility and it's hard to forgive the other person because it feels like condoning the behavior. So I think as long as I had my anger about it and my resentment and my hurt, as long as I was upholding those feelings, it felt like it was keeping him on the hook. And so I think one of the things that needs to happen is realizing that they're human too. And I was able to have like some empathy for him, which was really hard because it felt like a betrayal of myself. Like if I even show it like as I was like, how dare you have lessons, right? Like you're not entitled to any lessons. Like you're just the perpetrator. But realizing not only do you have feelings about it, but that other person has feelings and lessons and even the third person in the situation has feelings and lessons about it. And I think that was hard to let go of my ego in that moment to realize. And I think there's a difference between taking it out, like making it your fault versus taking responsibility. So I don't blame myself in terms of it was my fault. And I did, I mean, infidelity, people have free will. So it's not like I did something and that caused him to go and do whatever he was gonna do. It's just literally like, cool, what was, I'm now in this situation as a result of what has transpired, what can I do from here? Like where can I go? And for me, moving physically helped me move emotionally. And I don't think that everyone can afford to like move across the country, but I think what different thing, like how can you put yourself back in your park? Can you take a class? Can you join a group? Can you travel? Can you do something alone to start building your self-efficacy that you can do something outside this relationship? And so, yeah, it's like a little bit of putting your ego aside and then also realizing that you can take responsibility without taking the blame. And obviously that judge your neighbor concept applies here too, right? If you're feeling like you have to fix this other person and whatever that problem may be, I think you should turn around on yourself and say, maybe I'm struggling with this problem and ask yourself, why do you feel the need to fix it in someone else? Is it because you're trying to avoid fixing it in yourself? Yeah, and I think there's something to be said when you're in a relationship, it's never about I, it's always we. And then once you're out, you have to learn to go back to I again before you can start fixing the problem because you're always going to approach it as a we. And in that case, then then someone is the perpetrator, someone is the victim, and now you're looking at it. How can you have your power when you're looking at that person in that manner? And then here, something that strikes me that he wrote in here is, I catch myself trying to mentally apply your tips to other people. So it's like, well, you're not articulating what you'd like from them, you're just hoping that they pick these things up and hope is not a strategy and just hoping they're gonna someday get it is certainly not going to, that's not gonna help them at all. And I think that telling someone else they need to change or fix something is not gonna be met with positivity and no thank you for that. But the opposite is you can show them the possibility of change by changing yourself and inspire someone to change. So putting in the work and as we've all talked about and sharing that work with others can inspire other people to follow along and that comes with being vulnerable and owning your own faults. I think it's definitely possible to state your preferences. So one of the things that we do at my podcast is called The Best Life Podcast and one of the things we talk about a lot is honest communication. Obviously that was a huge piece of my journey and I find that it's so hard for people to honestly say what's on their mind to their partner or to their coworker, to their boss or whatever because they're constantly worried about how it's gonna be perceived and to your point like telling someone they need to change is never gonna be met with positivity, right? But you can state your preferences and it's not so that they'll agree with you, it's so that they can know, right? Because if you don't tell them they don't know and they may or may not be able to take it on they may or may not be able to change as a result but it's for you to practice stating your needs and then just letting the chips fall. And so I have like a really, I don't know if you guys are into it but I have like a three S system that I teach my clients and it's how to have an honest conversation to bring up something that you are kind of swallowing and not allowing yourself to bring up in a relationship. So the first S is set the stage. This is when you tell them that you're really, that you're feeling vulnerable, that you're kind of scared to bring this up because you're worried about their response, you're worried about how they're gonna take it, you don't wanna hurt their feelings but you really wanna bring up something and you feel really vulnerable. So when you do that you kind of get them on your team ahead of time versus like in the heat of an argument being like you need to do this, like that's never gonna be like what it's high emotion. So find that place when it's like emotionally neutral and say, hey, I really wanna talk about something. I've been a little bit nervous to bring it up because I'm just, I don't wanna hurt your feelings but I feel like I really wanna share it with you. Get some on your team a little bit like an icebreaker. The second S is just state your truth as clearly as you know it in that moment because we know that truth is evolving. Like we just know like what we feel in the moment now you're gonna state it as clearly as you possibly can. And then the last part's the hardest part and that is stick it out. Stick it out like, ah, like I wanna manage their response and I wanna like they're gonna get angry or they're gonna get disappointed or they're gonna have their, you know whatever response that they're gonna have and take it on, they're gonna get defensive and you need to allow for them to have that. And so, cause that's the whole part of it is trying not to change what you're gonna say to consider them to state it as clear as you can. And to me honesty is a service. Honesty without cruelty, right? Honesty with empathy. But I think that honesty is inclusive. I think when you talk about affairs that's the part that is the most hurtful. It's not the actual physical act. It's the exclusivity. You didn't have all the information. I wish that I had known when it was going on so I would've had a choice in the matter. And so to me honesty is inclusive and it's a gift. It's like the best thing you can do to the people that you say you love. And I think the important thing to realize is that everyone processes that truth differently. And a lot of times when we, you know truth bomb someone, we share what we're feeling their reaction if it doesn't go as planned can frustrate us and we become very selfish and like, well no I want you to hear this and I want you to change and realize that some people are gonna take it very silently and they're gonna have to process it. Maybe not in the moment. It may take days, weeks, even months for it to fully hit them. Some people are gonna be very reactive to it and maybe even blow up but it doesn't mean you're not heard. And I think that's, we oftentimes we project what we expect is gonna happen and then when it doesn't happen we're like, oh I shouldn't have done that. I shouldn't have brought it up. I'm just not, see I can't even bring it up. And I know, you know throughout my relationship Amy has been honest with me and then honest when my reactions have disappointed her and I've had to explain like this is how I process the information and I just want you to understand that the behavior change and the actions that follow in the days, weeks and months after are a lot more important than my reaction in the moment. Because the way I was conditioned and grew up is I was the passive recipient of anger and yelling. So me shutting down and processing is just how I've come to deal with it. It doesn't mean I'm not going to change and it certainly doesn't mean I'm not listening. Yeah, there's been, I mean we've been working together for 12 years and obviously not everything is going to go easily especially in the beginning when you're duking it out just to try to create something and make something happen. But you know in those times there's been conversations we had to have with each other and it's like, we would always do the one thing and it's like, listen I'm gonna tell you some things in the moment right now you do not have to answer and I'm not expecting an answer. And in fact, all I want is for you just to hear what I'm going to say and take a few days with it. And then let's have a conversation about it. And it's like, here's what I'm thinking. It's like, I don't like any what you just said. So but I'm gonna take it home and I'm gonna stew on it. And then it's like, you go through the emotional theater and it's like, you get worked up but then you're able to work through. It's like, okay, there's a point there. I have an argument for that, that piece there we need to discuss. And it's like, well, great. We are now moving beyond just those initial feelings. And now we can get to somewhere where we're both happy because if two people sit down and are adults and can communicate and articulate their issues then there should be a win-win here. And if we're fighting for the same thing then it should be easy for us to find that. Yep. Yeah, I think it's one of those things where you have to like the first time that you have that really uncomfortable and I love you guys have obviously you worked together for such a long time you've had those instances every single person I'm close with in my life we've had those moments of like, I could easily not bring this up, right? I could easily like not do the thing but when you engage in that difficult kind of awkward even conversation at times it really does deepen the connection. And it really, and it's a trust builder in the relationship. Like I know that you won't run away from like I don't want you to be resentful. I trust that what you tell me I take what you say at face value and that's a huge trust piece. And I also don't want those blind spots, right? We sit here and we're talking about our clients blind spots and things that everyone's working on. And for me, I don't want to be surrounded by people who are willing to be dishonest to protect my feelings because that blind spot is going to just be exacerbated over time. And if I'm trying to work on myself I want my friends to hold a mirror up to me and allow me to see the true me and not just what they perceive of me. I think the other difficult part with all of this is allowing the time and the space for that healing to happen because in the moment, as Johnny said there are emotions tied to it. And we try our best to wait for that moment where we'll be the calm before the storm. But even in those moments, the initial emotions of feeling attacked, feeling defensive, feeling, no, I have to share what I'm seeing what I'm feeling. That's not the most important point. It's the days and weeks and months that follow and the actions that are taken to course correct. Now coming out of this, obviously you had to feel some heat publicly, right? And you were afraid to share. And when people have this vision and idea of you and the power couple in their head and then that's not there any longer, it leads people to be really reactive and judgmental in a time when you're like, hey, I'm just trying to heal. So how did you go through that process? That was hard. There's a lot of people really angry at him, which is fine. And by the way, when I finally start talking about it publicly, I had worked through everything. So it wasn't like this very reactive kind of, like, you know, we talk about, I know you guys have talked a lot about toxic relationships. Like I don't even, I don't see him as toxic. I don't see, I just see it as someone being superhuman and like not superhuman, but human. And working through stuff. And unfortunately it was in a little bit in the public eye. So there were a lot of people who were really upset with him. I was worried that people were gonna see me as a doormat, just to be super honest, like as a strong woman. The fact that we were still friends, I didn't really get any direct judgment, but I think people were maybe judging that. How could you possibly still be friends with someone who did that to you? And I'm like, I get it. Believe me, I went through all of those emotions. And so a lot of when I was talking about it, I had already gone through my angry phase. I had gone through my resentment, my hurt. I had felt all of those feelings for the last year and a half. And I had really worked through a lot of that stuff. So I kind of started kind of preempting my conversations by saying, I've already, thank you. Like thank you. I know you're gonna be upset and I know that you have some judgments, whatever. I would appreciate if you kind of kept those to yourself because I'm actually in a really good place. And I know he got some heat, but he's been super open about it as well and his own lessons. And it's interesting, he didn't really feel fully committed to changing or shifting until what was done to me was also done to him. So it was like this portrayal sandwich, right? So he was like, it didn't really occur to him how much he like the pain or whatever he was inflicting on me until it was inflicted on him by his ex. So that was a really interesting kind of come around. This is a person I say I love the most and I'm lying to them. And so he had that moment of like, okay, who am I as a man? I have no integrity. I'm a fucking coward. Can I cast on this? Sorry. Like I'm a coward. He had all of those kind of like really embarrassing kind of things come up for him too. And again, it's hard to give any credence to his lessons because I'm like, how dare you have lessons? But you get to that point where you realize that we're all, there are three different people in this experience. It's a shared experience, but there are three different perspectives. And so when you kind of see that, you just realize that it's up to you to figure out how you want to move forward. And I think a lot of people only like the black and white and they like that narrative, okay, strong woman, leave him. And when we start to operate in the gray area, that's when people are really uncomfortable and they don't know how to behave. And a lot of times they will project what they think they would do in that moment because they've been raised on this black and white norm. And we even saw it in the presidential election where people judged Hillary for staying with him after going through something that public and knowing his history. And that judgment is often coming from a place of having never experienced it yourself. Not knowing, and that's cool, like I get that. You know, I'm happy to validate that for people who've never been in the situation. I've heard literally dozens of people since this say, well, you know, if my husband ever cheated, I would definitely be out. And I'm like, good, like I hope that you do. I hope that that's what, and I probably would have said that 10 years ago too. Until you're in that thing and you're like, we built a life together and like it wasn't as black and white and you're like, catch them in the act. So it's like, there's nuance there. And, you know, for a long time I had a lot of shame around that too. And so I think working through that and trying to communicate that at least on the best life. The reason why we, I have a co-host on the best life called Danny Jay. Her name's Danny Jay and she went through the exact same thing with her husband. And so it's kind of how we came together to start talking about this stuff. Yeah, it was kind of crazy. Now I would assume trying to repair the relationship and become friends and move into that place that boundaries have to be set and healthy boundaries in order for you to both feel safe moving forward. And we got a question here from Samantha who is struggling with boundaries herself. She says, my question is about boundaries and how to maintain them. I've been seeing this guy for a few months. I really like him. We laugh all the time and spend a ton of time together. The problem is he'll tell me about other women he's been with pretty graphically and we'll talk about how hot other girls are in front of me. We haven't had a conversation about what we are. So I don't know whether I have the right to be upset about this. Two questions. One, how do I set up a boundary here? And two, am I crazy to think that it's disrespectful for him to tell me these things? I'm here for the tough love. So please let me know. Ooh. Gosh. Well, first of all, I would like to say that I'm not a relationship expert at all. So like, I mean, and I'm interested in hear what you guys think too. I mean, I think I'm a little bit different in this regard that like that wouldn't bother me as much just because I look at the actions of the person. But I agree. Like, if you don't want to hear, I mean, I wouldn't want to hear graphic, you know, interactions with the guy that I'm currently seeing his kind of past. So I would just say, hey, like, almost joking. Like, I don't really need to know that stuff. You know, that wouldn't be necessarily, but you know, if you're getting a hit when he's saying that other women are attractive, like for me personally, number one, I'm like, other women are attractive. Like that's never going to go away. So, but if you don't like hearing that, then you might say like that's making, that makes you feel a little bit insecure or, you know, I just want to know that like, or maybe you guys need to have a conversation about the state of the relationship so you feel more secure. I think number one, we need clarity on where we are before we go putting boundaries on other people because, you know, he may have a completely different perspective on what the relationship is or if he is a relationship. So the first conversation to have is, you know, the what are we? And if you're feeling strongly that you're moving in one direction and he's not, then these behaviors make a lot more sense. But if he wants a relationship and you want a relationship, then yes, we need to draw a boundary around this behavior. And again, it comes down to the way you feel and you want to be with the partner that allows you to feel safe and feel respected. And some people aren't going to find that as disrespectful. Some people might be turned on by hearing those graphic dalliances that he's had before you or might be turned on by the thought of, oh, that other woman is attractive. So he may not know that this is even bothering you. Sure. Right. And a lot of times we have this internal response but we have this stoicism about us, this poker face that the other person communicating with us can misread. It's like, oh, well, maybe that is turning her on or maybe she is interested in hearing these stories. So one, clarifying what the relationship is is a very important first step. And then two, when it comes to boundaries, it's being honest about the way these behaviors are making you feel and then drawing a line that says, if you continue this, I don't think I could be in a relationship with you because it does disrespect me and make me feel that uncomfortable. Yeah, I mean, obviously, defining what this relationship is to the both of them. But also, another thing that this could be is him just finding out where these boundaries are and for him to find out how strong the relationship is. If she's not saying anything and he's kind of wondering, well, what do we have here? So there's questions all around the relationship. I mean, she starts it out. I'm just seeing this person for a few months. That's exactly when these things need to be defined. Isn't this has everyone wondering what's going on? I'm interested in your alls take because I've been dating for the last two or three years. I've been in a relationship now for about a year, but I spent a couple of years just having fun. And online, I hadn't been single since I was 18. So being dumped into the dating pool mid-30s in a new city, I know no one, it was just like, to say it was overwhelming. And then at this time period of insanity, of dating apps and the rest of the insanity. I know, I remember getting on my first dating app and being like, can people see me right now? I just didn't really understand. So, when do you suggest even having that conversation? I think from a woman's perspective, they're like, oh, am I gonna seem needy if I'm like, hey, can we have a conversation about what we are? You know, what's kind of, what are the rules around that? Well, I honestly feel like trusting your gut is the most important here. And it's gonna be different for everyone. Like, you know, my relationship with Amy, we met, spent a week together and towards the middle of the week, I was like, hey, I wanna move exclusive and that surprised her. Because she was like, well, wait a second, I see you as a bit of a playboy in LA. I know about your past and know that even single for a while, how do you know so quickly? And I was like, no, I'm trusting my gut on this one because I have dated and seen other women that I did not have this feeling with. So, trusting your gut is the first thing. If you're feeling like, hey, I think this is a relationship, but I haven't clarified it, then that is the time to have the conversation. And listen, that conversation's always gonna be awkward. You know, I think a lot of us have this idea that, well, if I just say the right thing or I wait for the right position of the sun, it'll be this perfect conversation that goes exactly as how I want it to. When it comes to boundaries, when it comes to setting expectations and when it comes to clarifying the relationship, especially if it's been, and we don't know in this case, but if it's been, you know, heavy physical, a lot of chemistry, but maybe not compatibility yet, stating your intentions of where you wanna be can clarify it for everyone. And I think we get in a lot of trouble because of the miscommunication around not being honest about our feelings and our intentions. Yeah, I mean, I mentioned this could be the guy to find out if this relationship was solid waiting for the pushback. This could also be him saying, hey, I'm seeing other people or I'm finding other women attractive for, so are you not gonna need ideas? However- Or he could be trying to go for a threesome and trying to see if this turns around. Yeah, I mean, so there's just a lot of communication that is not happening here and all the wrong communication is. I think sometimes having that state of the union like relationship conversation can be scary because what if it's a no? Then you go, I lose even a little bit of access that I have. I've certainly been in situations like that where it hasn't been super clear, but I know, and right now I'm like, just get to the no as fast as possible, right? Like in a sense, but you do have that fear of what if they don't want the relationship, then that's reject, I feel rejected, I lose access, I gotta cut it off, you know? And so, yeah, it's really interesting. And go on. I've been in situations with women who've pushed for it and I said, no, I'm not ready and we still ended up seeing each other and then ended up going exclusive. So I also don't think that just because you accelerate things- Is it checking? Exactly, that it's, again, black and white. Like, oh, okay, so you know he's not ready for a relationship, so I gotta scram. It may just be, hey, you know what? And we don't know anything about this guy's past, but it could be something of like, hey, I just got out of a divorce. I just got out of a long-term relationship here. I'm having fun, I don't know. I'm trying to find my feet under me. So I don't know where this is going and I'm trying to communicate my feelings and obviously they're being misread. So here's a question about jealousy that we got from Harry. Hello, AJ and Johnny, long-time listener, first time asking a question. I'm in my mid-20s, dating a girl in her very early 20s. Our relationship is going really well. We get along great and we enjoy going out on lots of dates. I'm someone who's pretty insecure. I'm so scared of my girlfriend developing feelings for other guys and cheating on me. It's not that I don't trust her, I do, but for some reason my mind keeps on imagining things I shouldn't even be thinking of. Should I open up and tell her I have these feelings? She's very outgoing and friendly and she has a lot of guy friends. I wanna give her freedom, but there are things I'm not comfortable with, like her hanging out with these guys alone, which she hasn't done yet. I've heard a lot of the artichoke podcasts about high value women liking high value men who are confident. Insecure men are a huge turnoff. Do I just keep these fears to myself and not reveal my insecurities to her? I know this issue is on my side of the court. How do I address this? And should I open up to her about my problem? Many thanks. Ooh. Yeah. A lot of questions, a lot to unpack. Well, I do wanna just one, take a step back and obviously coming from a place of being cheated on and now looking to move into new relationships. He's having these thoughts. How did you work through that fear of this happening again and start to trust your next partner? Gosh, yeah. It was interesting. We actually did a podcast for the best life about a year ago before I started my new relationship and it was on how can you trust, what can you trust met again? And so in theory, we had all the theories. We're like, of course we're gonna trust. Like it's better than just being hyper vigilant and checking his phone, like doing all these kinds of things. Of course we're gonna trust. Then you get into a relationship and you catch feelings and you're in that place and things start to get real. And so there have been several times where I don't know if you guys have heard of the book The As-If Principle by Richard Wiseman, but it's basically like, okay. Yes, I've read it. Yeah, so it's an amazing book. So I had that in the back of my mind in moments where I was insecure or found myself wanting to ask questions or who's there, who's gonna be there? Like check his phone or all those kind of things. I was like, how would someone who trusts be in this instance? How would someone who does have that almost like blissful trust that I had before my marriage? Like how would they act in this situation? And it's not easy. But I was like, that's what matters. It's the, when the rubber meets the road, do I choose to be a trusting person or do I not? Cause it's so easy. I mean, you know, guys know, it's like very easy to just ask questions and you can't help yourself sometimes. You won't know details. Like this person who asks this question, you want to know details. But I kind of had this moment where it's I realized it was gonna be death by a thousand paper cuts. If I always had a question about where's going, what he's doing, who's there? Like, and all these kinds of, so I realized I had to pick and choose my battles. And so by doing that, we just recently moved in together. And before I like signed over on the lease, I was like, can we have a conversation? And this is something that's important to me. And I don't want to talk about all the time. In fact, I don't even want to bring it up again, but I need you to know that this is important to me and do with it what you will, but you know my history. And moving forward, I need you to be honest in whatever way, shape, or form you can. And it just because you are doesn't mean I'm gonna be mad or I'm immediately out or whatever, but this is it, things are like, the stakes are a little bit higher now. We're moving in, we're signing a lease, like we're on the hook for this. So I think picking and choosing your battles. And then I just stated, you know, this is my history. This is how I am. And I really appreciate inclusivity. In fact, that's really important to me. Take, they do with it what you will. So I know that I said it, you know, nothing feels different really, but I know that I had a chance to say it in a really direct and honest way. And I'm not gonna bring it up a hundred times again. And so yeah, I mean, it's definitely been interesting, but I asked myself in the moments, I choose the action of a trusting person, even if I'm not fully there. That's great. I love that. And something else that you said there, I find extremely important is that you chose to go into it as a trusting person rather than an under trusting person. That is a decision. One of those decisions allows you to feel better about yourself, the relationship, and with the people that are gonna be around you. One of those is toxic, and it bleeds into other relationships as well. And it's going to corrupt those relationships. And that's gonna be a constant battle. So choosing that I'm gonna be somebody who trusts people is choosing your power in that. And it's really about trusting yourself, isn't it? So for example, there's no guarantee that this person's girlfriend is not going to stray. There's no, even though I live with this person now, there's no guarantee that he's not going. So I go, okay, cool. If the worst thing possible ever happened, could I get through it? Do I trust myself enough to be able to handle it? And I don't know, I think that's a practice. For me, having gone through what I did, I know that I can. And I'm very open with that. I'm going all in. I'm being super vulnerable in this relationship while also still knowing that there's a possibility that things could blow up or the same thing could happen again. And so the bottom line is, do I trust myself? And at that point, if you trust yourself, then you can trust anyone else. And that's kind of a hard decision. And I think there's two truths here that we have to realize. And number one is there's no relationship on earth where you're not gonna feel this way of this little bit of insecurity. Like everyone can cheat. I've been cheated on, people listening are like, well, you teach this, you're a relationship expert. It happens. Relationships end. Most relationships in your life are not going to work out. That's just how dating works. The second truth is, well, we're probably only gonna date people that are going to be attractive to other people. Like that's just how life works. You are with her because she's attractive. So obviously other men are gonna feel the same way. There's not this shining light only on her and you see her one way and everyone else sees her as something else. Odds are, we're gonna be attracted to people that are attractive to other people. So it is an insecurity that's always going to be there. It's nothing that you're gonna extinguish, but it's understanding and managing the communication necessary to build the trust and feel good taking the next step. I'm wondering if she is doing anything in her other relationships that is making him feel this way. We've all been in relationships where the other person, because of their behaviors, puts us in a position to feel insecure. And on the other side that have been in relationships because of their behaviors with other people make us feel very solid in our relationships. He states that he's in his mid-20s. Yeah, mid-20s. That's pretty young in relationships. So has he been in both relationships? And then of course for her, she's a young woman. She's developing. She has a lot of power. Does she know how her behaviors affects him and the position it puts him in? And I think communication here is going to be key. This is not something you can hold onto and just hope it blows over. It doesn't work that way. And that would actually make this incredibly terrible situation. That's how we would define low-value behavior. Is someone who is not forthright, is someone who's holding on to their own insecurities and not allowing the other person to realize their behaviors and actions. And as we said earlier about the boundaries, it's creating a moment where you both feel safe and secure, so it's not in an argument. It's not after she just came home from a night out with her guy friends and you're upset, but having time and space, first, to feel safe, to be honest. And the second thing here that we do gotta take a step back and realize is we all wanna be in a relationship with people we can be honest about our insecurities with. Right. And maybe that just me in my 30s, maybe me in my 20s didn't feel that way, but I would hope that we would find someone who we can own our insecurities around and understand that we all have them and she's probably feeling her own insecurities. And she may be using her insecurities and surrounding herself with men to allow herself to feel good in this relationship. Like see, I have all these other options, but he doesn't know any of this because he's not having the conversation with her. He's writing into a podcast. So the first step is to actually have a conversation with her and it's not to draw boundaries saying you can't do this, you can't hang out with these people, but it's more about being honest of like, hey, it makes me feel uncomfortable so the more information you could give me, the more comfortable I'd feel. Yeah, I think inclusion here is a big one too. So if she has other guy friends like, I don't know, maybe y'all should go out to coffee or like at a drink sometime. So at least like they know that you exist. I think sometimes that can be where things break down as well, but also like as a caveat to having the conversation, if you're having the same conversation in three months, if you're having the same conversation in six months, if you're having the same conversation in a year and things are not changing on any side, then that's probably your red flag. Right, because you've expressed your discomfort and they haven't changed because they don't respect your discomfort. Or you haven't done the things that you needed to to bolster your own self-confidence. I am a little concerned about co-dependency here though as well, I think a lot of us, and this is very common in our 20s, we find that special someone and then all of a sudden we leave our friends behind and we just wanna spend every moment with that person and when they don't feel the same way and they don't reciprocate that, then our mind starts to wander of oh, there must be other options out there. I think it's important for him to cultivate relationships with men and women outside of his relationship. That's a stable, healthy relationship that's not one that has co-dependency. So if you're sitting at home getting frustrated because she's out with her friends, guys or girls, maybe it's time for you to go out with your friends or meet some new people and get your mind off of it too. When you're busy, right, idle hands lead to these thoughts. When you're busy, you're probably less concerned. Matt is struggling with an ex-partner he shares children with. How do you deal with toxic relationships with an ex when there are children involved? Even after six years, we still cannot have a conversation about the children without my ex plunging into the reasons for the breakup and apportioning blame on me. I try to listen and not comment, but she can use up my time in the argument. I've been firm that I'll only talk about the children or insist on written communication. What I get in return is abusive language or long-winded messages that are often not about the children. I have a new partner now and we'll only start a conversation if it impacts the children. But when these conversations comes up, she uses them as an opportunity to unload everything on me. With love advice on how to deal with someone I cannot completely cut out of my life. First of all, this is just unfortunate because there's children involved and anytime there's children involved there's a lot, we have a lot to lose. And with that, I would just say, a lot of times we have in our mind, oh, once children get involved, we'll change behaviors and we'll just put the children first. That very, very rarely happens. So these problems were probably there before you had children and then now it's being exacerbated by the fact you're no longer together, but you have children. Well, and not only that, children end up being weapons against each other and that's certainly not helpful for anybody. And I'm just, I'm just looking at this again. It seems to me, at least in Matt's case here, that he's trying to have a relationship. He's trying to talk to her and he certainly isn't getting anywhere. Have, part of me still wants to ask Matt though, has he allowed her to fully unload everything that she needs to say and has he allowed her to feel that she's been heard and he fully recognizes all of those feelings and now can we have a dialogue? For, has he, or has he, and when she started these things, has he just ran off and said, I'm only interested in talking to you if you want to talk about the children? Gosh, it is really so hard because as he's describing his ex, like that could have been me very easily, could have been me, because when you hang on to those resentments, you know, you do let the person just discuss you. Like every time you see them or hear them, you like just want to go off because you're in so much pain. And so it's hard because my advice to Matt would be like, okay, and I agree with you, Johnny, but like letting her have that full space and acknowledging those things, but at some point he has to detach from that. It's not his business to manage how she feels anymore. And I think that's one of the hardest things is because obviously someone you share children with and like he wants her to feel okay, and he obviously doesn't want this vitriol, but at the end of the day, like he's gonna have to figure out a way to inoculate himself because she's still processing whatever he, and obviously he's moved on. And so he's gonna have to figure out a way to not be as triggered by it. Yeah, it says six years, so they should have moved on. Well, I would say to that and that with the fact that you're trying to raise children together and the fact that we don't know who has custody and what the split is and who's spending more time with the children, that to that point allowing her the space, even as difficult as it may feel to you right now, to heal and even saying, hey, I wanna get to a better place between us and I know right now we're not there, I'm willing to go to therapy with you to have a healthy relationship and demonstrate a healthy relationship for our children and allow her to see that he's willing to participate because he cares so deeply about the children. And to Johnny's point, this resentment that's been building and it's still going for six years, there's an immense amount of pain behind it. And now it's in a situation where it could impact your ability to be there for your kids, to be that good father because if it's bleeding out and you're trying to set boundaries and it's still happening, then what do you think's happening when he's not there behind his back? And that's what we don't wanna see happen is the toxicity then falls onto the children's lap and they have to try to process it. And let's be honest, most of us as children don't have the tools, we barely have the tools as adults to process this. You're just trying to orient yourself to anything and it's going to be your parents and you're gonna replicate the behaviors that you're seeing. And when kids are involved, sometimes it takes one of us being more mature and we know it's painful and we know, hey, internally I'm losing my own respect by having to deal with all this but to create that space to let her fully heal the wound, then after that, and maybe you have, maybe you've tried that and didn't work, then to that point, I think it is important to enforce the boundary. It sounds like he's not enforcing the boundary. He's saying, I only want this written communication, I only wanna talk about the children but then he still finds himself in conversations where she's abusing him. Those are the conversations where the phone gets hung up, where you leave the room, you leave the house, you don't allow yourself to be put in that position over and over again coming from divorced family and having a situation where I never really get my mom's side of the story, I only had my dad's side of the story, it can color your worldview and impact the children in ways that he may not even be realizing or thinking about. Part of me when I read this, I just see them squabbling back and forth at each other because they're still trying to win the argument but yet the damage is going to the children and at some point, when are you gonna hold them up and focus on them rather than the argument or the fight that they're having here? Yeah, it sounds like it's definitely a pride thing too. I think that, and to your point about putting your ego aside, I think that's one of the hardest things but what really helps for me was taking that person off the pedestal and just going like, man, like you said, there's a world of hurt behind that anger and that frustration and almost seeing them, and I hate to say, it sounds a little condescending but seeing them as a child in a sense or at least emotionally like a child and going, okay, I can actually have empathy because I have evolved past this place, I can almost have empathy and I don't wanna say pity but in a way you can give them the benefit of the doubt because you're like, okay, they're just not quite there yet and so I think that helps, at least for me, the energetics of the relationship can change if you're not taking everything so personally. And I like that because the response and we talk about this diffusion technique with ourselves of when you're beating yourself up, you're getting really upset with yourself and your actions, picture yourself as a five-year-old which you'd be yelling and screaming at yourself and cussing and saying, you're a loser, you can't do this. No, you would be more supportive. This same level of communication can happen in this regard. Hey, she's acting like a child, I wouldn't yell and berate a child, I wouldn't do that, they don't have the ability to see beyond what's going on here. So that's a very good frame to think about especially your reaction, I think that's the other thing. Some of this is gonna be goading you into reacting in a negative way so that she can knock you off that pedestal around your children and it's important for you to be the bigger person, to set your ego aside and say, hey, let me have it but let's do it outside of the house, let's do it in the backyard, let's do it around the block and then let's go back to treating our kids respectfully. I think when mentioned about therapy, having it out in the presence of a therapist who is able to allow conversation to move in the right direction is certainly gonna be important. And with kids, yes, it sucks that you have to agree to go to therapy too, this is her problem, you're seeing it as, this is her, I'm trying to be the best. But what's more important? Exactly, now we're taking the mature step of saying, hey, our children's lives are more important, let's try our best with help, outside help, a third party to see through our differences and heal if we can. Okay, here's the last question for today, this one's from Blair. Hey, Johnny and AJ, I love y'all's podcast. I feel my boyfriend is lazy. How do I express my frustration towards him without him getting upset? To add a little context, we've been together for almost a year. We both met at a time, he was the CEO of a company for two plus years and I had just been promoted at a Fortune 500 company. We moved in together after four months of dating, we talk about marriage and our future together and everything has been great. But the problem is he sold a percentage of his company and now uses the I worked 80 hours a week for the past two years as a way to compensate for his laziness. I'd like to see him work towards a new startup he's mentioned or contribute advice to other startups. He always gets defensive anytime I try to bring it up. Before we get married one day, I need to be sure he's motivated to be his best self even if he was once CEO for two years. Johnny, you're laughing over here. So I feel like you got. Well, there's a lot going on here. We could have some fun with this. My first thought is he just sold this company not very long ago. We know and certainly you know, in building a company, this is your child. And then when you're working with people you're building a relationship, an intimate relationship where everyone certainly in entrepreneurship you are working with another person into the unknown. So everyone's insecurities and limits are going to be exposed. So there's a lot of intimacy and getting to know somebody and you're really raw from that exposure. And for her to be like, okay, so like you need to get onto something else. Yeah, but I think there's a healing process for this poor guy to just figure perhaps like what is it that he wants to do? What is the next move? And once again, learning what that might be. I think I just want to make sure that he has a little space there. A lot of founders at this point over the 12 years of networking who've cashed out and then it felt lost. And have been fearful of starting something new because what if it fails, right? I had this, Johnny you could talk about bands. I had this great album that came out. I'm terrified about going in studio for album number two and it failing. And in that there's also obviously running a company your ego is tied to that company and now that piece is no longer there. So I would definitely say in this situation give a little bit of space. And again, anytime we want to motivate someone we're going to motivate them most by our own actions. And I'll tell you what, I've had bouts of laziness and hanging out with Amy and watching her get up in the morning and crush work and crush workouts and run a blog. It fires me up too. And I want to get moving. And it does allow me to overcome some of those moments where I'm like, well, yeah, it'd be easier to stay in bed today or it'd be easier to just cancel all my meetings and not show up. So I find that I get a lot of energy and fuel from my partner. And this could be an opportunity for you to showcase to him that exact thing of giving him some energy by getting yourself moving and putting your nose to the grindstone. The other thing is, of course, there's going to be defensiveness anytime you bring it up. Again, we keep going back to this like, well, I'm waiting for the perfect moment where the sun is right and he's just gonna sit there and say, oh great, this is exactly what I wanted to hear from the person that I care about. There's always going to be a level of defensiveness. We can't get away from that, but that doesn't mean he's not listening and it doesn't mean that he can't change. Also, anyone who's run a company will know that you can't be lazy and run a company. You may have read books online about three hour work weeks and six hour work weeks, but no one running a company managing a team of people is lazy. So I highly doubt that this funky is going through is anyway representative of the rest of his life and what you have to look forward to. Yeah, and I love that. And I agree about setting the example, but and also, I'm very much like a person who wants everyone to have the full experience that they need to have. So I'm very much like, okay, he's in that space right now. You might not, I think the problem comes in when you start to not respect the person, then maybe you don't find them as attractive and maybe there's some implications there, but in terms of just tactically allowing for him the space. And instead of saying, hey, when are you gonna get a job or when are you gonna start a business or are you gonna maybe ask roundabout questions, things like, well, what are you passionate about? Like you can do anything now. Like what is it that gets you fired up? Like what, you know, and you can kind of start from that ground zero about passion and purpose instead of going right to like, when are you gonna get a job? When are you gonna have to couch? I think those kinds of questions can feel really attacking versus just being curious and having more conversations and get him to- And saying, let's try this, let's try that, let's do this together. And if it's been like so long, I would look for the emotions that he's, like his daily emotions, is he angry, is he tired? Like what are his daily emotions? And then from there, you can, you know, go, hey, like I'm noticing this about you, is it because you're not engaged? Well, you hit it with the emotions. Like he sold it, was he forced to sell? Was this his baby? And then for whatever reason was forced out? Like how draining would that be? And to pick yourself up, it's like, okay, I'm waiting around, it's four months, you've done nothing, well, four months, that is no time to go from really anything. I've had bams fall apart and four months was not enough. I can attest to that. I've been drawing Johnny's eyes for months. You know, I think also what can be hard about situations like this is, I mean, I could just speak from my own personal experience, is that if I start to lose respect for my partner in some way, as much as I'd be like, well, I should respect the fact that he built this company or whatever, still there's that in real time, you know, I kind of, I'm not finding you as attractive and they need to maybe have a conversation around that. So if she notices that like, maybe she's just not as attracted to him anymore, like that's real and it's valid and it doesn't mean he needs to do anything, but it does mean they have a conversation about that. We're going down this path of like, I'm kind of losing respect for you a little bit and that's not your fault. I realize you just came off what you came off, but like that is happening for me and I don't know how we, can we just talk about that? Yeah, before it turns into resentment and then it turns into something that can't be fixed, right? We're at a place now where you're feeling it, trust your gut and be honest about it. And we always say, lead from the seat that you're in and your actions will inspire far more than your criticisms will. Yeah, it's a good one. It's juicy. Thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate you being vulnerable and sharing your story. I know that a lot of our audience members have gone through very difficult situations in navigating relationships and it's not black and white. It's not as cut and dry as we like to think and it's always easier before you've experienced it to have these viewpoints and it's more nuanced and we really appreciate your candor. Oh, thank you guys so much for having me. This is fun. Great, thank you. Where can our listeners check you out and your podcast? Yeah, so the podcast is called The Best Life Podcast and actually if you listen to the first episode it's a short one. We actually tell the story of like the infidelity and kind of why we came together. And we talk a lot about relationships, personal development in my business at jillfit.com. It's mostly around business and fitness and nutrition. So if you want like the more juicy, very raw, very real relationship conversations that's happening on The Best Life. But yeah, hit me up on Insta. It's at jillfit. If you want to send me a DM and connect that way that's probably the easiest. Really? Awesome. Thank you. Thank you guys.