 Hi everybody, welcome to the social exchange podcast and hello to all of viewers. I'm here with Johan Hari today Johan Hari is the author of two best-selling books one is called Chasing the Scream the other is called Lost Connections Johan, thanks for being in Vermont. So you're at Howard Center a conference tomorrow. You got to be speaking about the topic which is overcoming adversity Both of your books. I think make you Right for the picking in terms of that topic. Maybe could you go over just a little bit about What chasing the scream is and what Lost Connections is we have of course This is I want this to stand alone to people who are listening and who have heard both of those talks you and I have done But maybe a potted summary of both. Yeah, so they both come from kind of personal mysteries in my life Where I then use the training I got in the social sciences at Cambridge University to try to understand them better So one of my earliest memories is to try and to wake up one of my relatives and not being able to and I didn't understand why then because a little boy but I realized as I got older that we had addiction in in my family and I wanted to understand a lot of things like a lot of people in that position. I was Kind of puzzled I didn't know what to do I didn't feel anything I was doing was working and when I started working on chasing the Scream It must be eight years ago now. Maybe a little bit more actually. I You know I Just wanted to understand a few basic questions like what causes addiction what can we do to help people with addiction problems? Where has succeeded and where has failed and so ended up going on this big journey all over the world over 30,000 miles wanted to meet the leading experts in the world but also people with very different perspectives and I learned really that everything we think we know about addiction is wrong and That there are places that have discovered solutions to these crises and we're doing Essentially here in the US the opposite of what the places that succeed do so that was what chasing Scream is about lost connections Kind of related in some ways. It's it's about depression. I wrote it really because there were these two mysteries They're kind of hanging over me and I was quite frightened to look into them The first is I'm 40 years old and every year that I've been alive Depression and anxiety have increased here in the US and across the Western world and I wanted to understand Why right what? Why is depression risen so much and just in despite having what we consider sound medical solutions to it? Yeah, exactly and and and so I Wanted to figure out Why so many of us are finding it so much harder to get through the day with each day that passes with usually that passes And I want to understand that for a quite personal reason when I was a teenager I remember going to my doctor and saying I had this feeling like pain was leaking out of me and I couldn't control it I couldn't regulate it. I didn't understand it and my doctor told me a story that I now realize wasn't totally wrong But was really over simplified my doctor said we know why people feel this way sometimes something just goes wrong in people's Brains spontaneously, you're clearly one of them. All we need to do is give you these drugs You're gonna be fine. So he gave me in a chemical anti-depressant called Paxil I felt much better for a few months then this feeling of pain came back so went back I kept being given higher and higher doses and I took the largest dose you can take for 13 years at the end of which I was still really depressed. So I wanted to understand What's going on here, right? Why am I feeling like this? Why so many other people feeling like this? Why is this story I've been told that it's just a problem in our brains didn't seem to me like that could be true because human brains haven't suddenly Couldn't be the whole truth because human brains haven't suddenly evolved in the last 30 years Unless it's something else going on tautological to say that everything's happening at the you know at the Level of the brain right now is that helpful, you know exactly It would be like explaining the obesity crisis by talking just about what's going on in people's stomachs It'd be true right of course if you become obese or whatever you do There's something going on in your stomach not a great predictive model exactly what it's really important to understand it So really it's true there is something going on in the stomach But this you need to look at the things that go into the stomach as all right and the same very similar with with this So so for lost connections again I ended up going on this very big journey all over the world To try to understand what's going on and I learned that there's scientific evidence for nine causes of depression and anxiety Two of them are in our biology But most of them are actually factors in the way we live and once you understand what's causing this crisis Opens up a very different set of solutions that should be offered to people alongside the option of drugs if they want them I was curious when you say nine solutions I read the book and I agree with every single one of them when you say nine solutions now And you talk about brain chemistry that is in its own way heuristic that is doesn't really predict very much Are these nine different sort of heuristics to understanding what is going on with depression? I guess they're more zooming at you could do to talk about it Talk about depression in a more broad level or is what it just become chaotic and difficult to understand if you did that? Do you know I think there's three kinds of cause and all of the ones that I write about fall into one of those categories And this is very broad agreement among scientists some of the specific details that agree on a different scientists to screw with each Other but the broad category basically almost no one disagrees with at least in theory So three kinds of course you've got biological causes things like your genes can make you more sensitive to these problems They don't write your destiny, but they can make you more sensitive or there are real brain changes that happen when you become depressed That make it harder to get out then there are psychological causes to give a Obvious one if you've been abused as a child you're significantly more likely to become depressed and anxious Unless you're given help to release the shame and the negative thought patterns that come from that Do you think it's the the abuse itself the the actual traumatic event of the abuse itself or that? People are more likely if they come from abusive situations to have lived a life, you know along the life span come back to that I'll just finish the thing about three sorry. Don't don't let me It's important question, but I come back to just to explain these three kinds of cause that the third cause of social causes So to give one example if you're lonely, you're much more likely to become depressed and anxious If you are controlled at work, so you have low or no control over your job You're much more likely to become depressed to go through a range of them So there are three kinds of cause But within each of those you break it down and you can see there are different contributions And I think and these are the nine that I could find evidence for there will be others that Scientists have not yet found proof for So this isn't you know kind of definitive list, but I think that once you understand those things it does Open up and it has led scientists and doctors and others all over the world Who I've met and write about in Oscar nations to find and pioneer different solutions. It's an in-road to deeper truths And you think that's different maybe then the strictly Mechanistic model which is not so much an in-road to truth It's it is true, but it's difficult to break out of that model if you're deep in it Is that what you mean? Yeah, if you give people an entirely biological story about their pain, right? It's not that there's no truth in that there is some truth in it But if that's all you tell people then really there's only one solution which is to drug yourself one place to look for a solution Exactly, and and that has some value right chemical antidepressants do give some people some relief But the evidence is I thought I was really weird and unusual in that I took antidepressants for 13 years and I was still depressed most of the time I thought there's something wrong with me actually I was really surprised to go into be the leading expert at Harvard Medical School and then look at the best research from people like the World Health Organization the leading medical body in the world Discover in fact, I was completely normal most people taking these drugs get some relief I'm not opposed to them, but most people taking them do become depressed again So that tells you not that there's no value in those drugs But that we've got to have precisely because the problem goes much deeper than our biology We've got to find solutions that go much deeper than our biology, but I would argue also it's requires a different kind of Different kind of perspective on this because increasingly I found this really hard to absorb, but actually What the biology that the overly biological stories tell you is that if you're depressed and anxious Your depression anxiety are like a malfunction in a piece of machinery, right? It doesn't mean anything It's just something's broken But actually what I learned is when you look at the the very strong scientific evidence for the much broader way of thinking about this Actually, I can't think of depression is largely not a malfunction. It's a signal. It's telling you something everyone watching your shows that knows They've got natural physical needs obviously you need food You need water you need shelter you need clean air, but those things away from you being real trouble real fast But there's equally strong evidence that all human beings have natural psychological needs You need to feel you belong you need to feel your life has meaning and purpose You need to feel that people see you and value you you need to feel you've got a future that makes sense And this culture we built is good at lots of things. I'm glad to be alive in 2019 Sure, but we've been getting less and less good at meeting these deep underlying Psychological needs for people and it's not the only thing that's going on, but I think it's there's good evidence It's the key reason why this crisis keeps rising Year after year and if we want to stop that and reverse it We've got to deal with these deep unmet psychological needs and that can sound a bit fancy, but there are very practical ways to do that I'm happy to tell you about I'm good before you do that. I'm good friends with I mean, I'm Steven Allege agent He's a linguist actually I think he does that he would call that more of a hobby although he's a better linguist than any linguist I know he's a nutritionist really and he works in Developing countries, but he studies the languages and learns that he becomes fluent in these languages and he was well It was in some cultures where you know being diagnosed with depression That wouldn't be something that they even understood and in some cultures and languages they try to preserve themselves as much as they can if they want medical help they then need to Stop speaking their own language because they need to speak to the people the language of the people who are coming in to give Them help and it's a rough a transition. So he's he was with a group of people who By any practical measure are deeply depressed in a lot of ways because their needs psychologically in some ways, but mostly Physically medically speaking aren't being met, but there are reasons why They didn't want any of the help anyway, these are people not diagnosed with depression But yet they are deeply depressed in many ways. How how did you tinker with that line where I'll give you an example That goes to a really one of things that really because I found a lot of this Very hard to absorb when you have a story about your pain Even if it's not working very well in that story wasn't the story. I was told wasn't working very well for me At least you feel like you know where you are Yeah, and there's a very painful I found a very painful moment of adjustment when I realized I actually That story I've been told was very simplistic and I needed to acknowledge a more complex range of Causes and find different solutions that I found very difficult One of the people who really helped me to understand it was an amazing South African psychiatrist called Dr. Derek Summerfield Who told me about something so Dr. Summerfield happened to be in Cambodia in 2001 When they first introduced chemical antidepressants for people in that country and The local doctors the Cambodians had never heard of these drugs. They're like, what are they? So he explained and they said to him, oh, we don't need them. We've already got anti-depressants And he was like, what do you mean? He thought they were going to talk about some kind of herbal remedy like St. John's War or Jinko Baloba or something instead They told him about a member of their community So there was a farmer who lived in one of the places where they were the doctors Who worked in the rice fields and one day he stood on a landmine left over by the war with the United States And he got his leg blown off. So they gave him an artificial limb and He stood, you know, after a little while he goes back to work in the rice fields, but Apparently it's really painful to work under water when you've got an artificial limb I'm guessing it was pretty traumatic to go back to the field where you got blown up The guy started to cry all day. He didn't want to get out of bed. He developed classic depression That's when the Cambodians said to Dr. Summerfield. Well, this is when we gave him an anti-depressant and Dr. Summerfield said well What? They explained that they went and sat with him They listened to him They realized that his pain made sense That it wasn't just some malfunction in his brain that had causes in his life And one of them figured, you know, if we bought this guy a cow he could become a dairy farmer He wouldn't be in this position that was screwing him up so much So they bought him a cow within a couple of weeks his crying stopped within a month His depression was gone. They said to Dr. Summerfield. So you see doctor that cow that was an anti-depressant That's what you mean, right? Now if you've been raised to think about depression the way we have that sounds like a bad joke I went to my doctor for an anti-depressant. She gave me a cow. Give me a cow. Yeah But what those Cambodian doctors knew intuitively is what the leading medical body in the world The World Health Organization has been trying to tell us for years. Your pain makes sense If you're depressed, if you're anxious, you're not a machine with broken parts You're in the main a human being with unmet needs and what you need is love and practical help To get those deeper needs met this couldn't it's like there couldn't be anything more practical or common sense Do you think that? I'm interested to know more about those doctors and that They were in fact doctors that thought of that solution a social solution It seems like it's not the bailiwick to to give some sort of a social prescription to something. Should it be though? Well, I'll give you an example of it one of the great heroes of my book Lost Connections is an amazing man Who really has been absorbing these insights into Western medicine. His name is yeah He's great. He's called Dr. Sam Everington and he is a doctor general practitioner in East London where I'm from as you can tell from my weird Downton Abbey accent where I live for a long time and So Sam was just treating ordinary patients like any normal doctor And he was really uncomfortable because he had a lot of the patients coming to him with depression and anxiety and like me He's not opposed to chemical anti-depressants. So they have some role to play But he could see a couple of things firstly The people who were coming to him were depressed and anxious for perfectly understandable reasons like they were really lonely also He could see that most of the people who's giving chemical anti-depressants to Got a bit of relief but remained basically depressed So he started thinking well, what what can we do here? One day a patient came to see him called Lisa Cunningham Who I got to know well later who'd been shut away in her home with just terrible depression and anxiety for seven years and Sam said to Lisa don't worry. I'll carry on giving you these drugs But I'm also going to prescribe something else There was an area behind the suite of doctors offices that was just like scrub land where dogs would go and mess Right and Sam said to Lisa what I'd like you to do is come and turn out a couple of times a week I'm going to come to because I've been pretty anxious We're going to meet on this scrub land. What I'd like you to do We're going to meet with a group of other depressed and anxious people and Together we're going to figure out saying to do together So we won't be lonely and we won't feel that life is meaningless The first time the group met Lisa was literally physically sick with anxiety. She just couldn't bear it But the group starts talking and they're like, okay, what can we do? These are inner-city East London people They don't know anything about gardening. They're like, okay. Why don't we why don't we learn about gardening? Why don't we turn this into a garden? They started to watch YouTube videos. They started to read books They started to get their fingers in the soil. They started to learn the rhythms of the seasons There's a lot of evidence that exposures the natural world. It's a really powerful antidepressant But they started to do something even more important They started to form a tribe. They started to form a group. They started to care about each other if one didn't show up Everyone else would be like, hey, are you okay? Do you need any help? The way Lisa put it to me as the garden began to bloom We began to bloom. There was a study in Norway of a very similar program They found it was more than twice as effective as chemical antidepressants. I Think for a kind of obvious reason, right? It was dealing with some of the reasons why they were depressed and anxious in the first place And this is something I saw All over the world from Sydney to San Francisco to Sao Paulo the best strategies for dealing with depression and anxiety Are the ones that deal with the reasons why we feel this way in the first place? But to get to that you have to explain to people. You're not crazy to feel this way You're not weak. It's this is not a sign of madness Actually, this is this is you are reacting perfectly understandably To a culture that doesn't meet your needs, you know the Bengali writer Krishnamurti said it's no sign of good health To be well adjusted to a sick society How do we get out of our own way? I mean, it's like There are a couple different reasons why I think we're in our own way on one hand. It's become Labels in and of themselves about why we're having difficulty and especially medical ones have almost have become so ubiquitous that on one hand It's you have a sense that you are unique and on the other your group Your tribe that you may want to form and that's what you're missing has made up of other people who are ostensibly uniquely sick and then on the other hand we are in a really individualistic Society that seems like we can't take a step forward in terms of making sense of how to form social groups that Would make us well and thrive Yeah, I can give you a kind of fancy abstract answer But I actually think the best answer comes from a group of people that I got to know in the course of writing lost connections You know, obviously I learned a lot from doctors and scientists and the whole process around the book I think people who taught me most were these people are not doctors and scientists at all I'll just tell you the story of who they were so in the summer of 2011 a Turkish-German woman in Berlin called Nuria Cengiz Climbed out of her wheelchair and put a sign in her window The sign said she was on the ground floor and the sign said something like I got a notice saying I'm going to be evicted From my home next Thursday, so on Wednesday night. I'm gonna kill myself And Nuria lived in a big anonymous housing project in Berlin like an anonymous housing project anywhere here in the US When no one really knew each other it was actually been a very poor. It's called Cotty this neighborhood very poor neighborhood It basically only three groups of people who lived there recent Muslim immigrants like this woman Nuria Gay men and punk squatters and as you can imagine these three groups did not get along and no one really knew anyone So people are walking past Nuria's window. They see the sign and they're like, oh, they start to knock on the door They're like, do you need any help and Nuria just said screw you. I don't want any help and shut the door in their faces So people start talking and this is a housing project where rents have been going up for everyone, right? So lots of people were being evicted lots people identified with Nuria and and they're talking they're like Well, we can't leave this woman to kill herself. But what no newer what they're like, what do we do? And and they start talking and one of them just had an idea There's a big thoroughfare that goes through this housing project through Cotty into the center of Berlin And one of them just said, you know, if on Saturday we blocked the road for a day and we protested You know the media will probably come and cover it. There'll be a bit of a fast They'll probably let this woman stay in our home. Why don't why don't we try it? There might even be a bit of pressure to keep our rents down, right? So it gets to the Saturday and they block the road. They block the street And Nuria's like I'm going to kill myself. I might as well let them push me into the middle of the road They will Nuria out and the media come and she does these slightly bemused interviews and lots of people Talk about how they're really worried about their rents going up And then it gets to the end of the day It's a bit of a new story in Berlin that day it gets to the end of the day and the police are like Okay, everyone. You've had your fun and take it down But The people who live in Cotty are like well hang on You haven't told Nuria. She gets to stay Actually, we want a rent freeze for our entire housing project when we get that Then we'll take this down But of course they knew the minute they left the barricade the little makeshift barricade they've made The police would just come and tear it down and that would be that So one of my favorite people at Cotty a person called Tanya Gardner who wears She's one of the punk squatters. She wears tiny little mini skirts even in Berlin winter. She's quite hardcore And she had an idea She explained to everyone that in her apartment she had a klaxon, you know those things that make really loud noises at soccer matches So she went and got it and said okay. Here's what we're going to do We're going to drop a timetable to man this barricade We're going to man it 24 hours a day until we've got what we want Um, if the police come to take it down let off the klaxon And we'll all come down from our apartments and stop them. We're going to get what we want, right? So people start signing up to man this barricade people who had never met and would never have met quite unlikely pairings So Tanya in her tiny little mini skirt was paired with Nuria. Who's a very religious muslim in the full hijab I think they got I remember right. They got the thursday night shift, right? and The first few times they sit there together It's super awkward. They're like we've got nothing to talk about What could we can have less in common? the nights pass And they start talking and they discovered they in fact had something incredibly powerful in common um Nuria had come to berlin when she was 16 years old from a village in turkey She already had two babies And she was meant to earn enough money in berlin to send back for a husband so he could come and join her So she worked unbelievably hard in those first 18 months in berlin And then she got word from home that her husband had died Sitting there in the cold in cotty. She told Tanya something she'd never told anyone in germany She'd always told people that her husband had died of a heart attack In fact, he he died of tuberculosis, which was seen as a kind of shameful disease of poverty That's when Tanya started to talk about something she rarely talked about she she She um She'd come to cotty when she was 15. She'd been thrown out by her middle class family She found her way to cotty as she lives in one of the punk squats and she got pregnant really quickly They both realized that they had in fact been children with children of their own in this place They they didn't understand they realized they were incredibly similar These pairings were happening all over cotty of people who were realizing how similar they were Directly opposite cotty. There's a gay club called zood block Which is run by a man. I love called rickard stein It's quite a hardcore gay club to give you a sense of what it's like The previous place that rickard owned was called cafe anal And when they when this this this club at zood block had opened about Two years before these protests began and as you can imagine, there's a lot of very religious muslims in this neighborhood Some people have smashed the windows. They've been people have been really annoyed about it When the protests began zood block gave all of their furniture to the protest And supported it in all sorts of ways and after it been going on for about three months They started to say, you know, you guys could have all your meetings in our club We'll give you free drink. We'll give you free food just come and even the kind of progressives at cotty were like We're not going to get these very religious muslim immigrants to come and have meetings Underneath posters for gay sex acts so obscene. I can't describe them on the mont television, right? Um, it did start to happen as as one of the muslim german women there put it to me We all realized we had to take these small steps to understand each other After the protests have been going on for a full year and that barricade had been there the whole time One day a guy turned up at cotty called tungkai who was in his early fifties He'd been living homeless and it's pretty clear when you meet tungkai. He's got some kind of cognitive Um difficulties But he had this amazing energy about him. He started volunteering to help And by this time the barricade they'd built was because a lot of them are construction workers Literally a permanent structure in the middle of the street, right with a roof and everything And after a little while everyone liked tungkai they said to him, you know, you should we don't want you to be homeless You should come and live in this thing we've built, right? So tungkai went to live in that that that little building they'd made and he became a much loved part of the cotty protest And after he'd been there for about nine months one day the police came They would do this every now and then to like inspect And they were looking around and and tungkai doesn't like it when people argue He he thought the police were arguing so he went to try to hug one of the police officers And they thought he was attacking them So they arrested him That was when it was discovered that tungkai have been Tungkai had been detained in a psychiatric hospital for 20 years He'd escaped one day. He'd been living on the streets for a few months and found his way to cotty So they took him back to the psychiatric hospital right the other side of berlin And he was put back literally in a padded cell And at which point the entire cotty protest movement Turned into a kind of free tungkai movement right they descend on this psychiatric hospital And these psychiatrists these german psychiatrists are like What is this they've got this person they've had shut away for 20 years and suddenly they have these Women in hijabs these very camp gay men and these punks Demanding his release and they're completely baffled but I remember Uli Hartman one of the protesters saying to them Yeah, but You don't love him He doesn't belong with you We love him. He belongs with us Many things happened at cotty. They got tungkai back. It took a while, but he lives there still They got a rent freeze for their entire housing project They then launched a referendum initiative to get rents held down across berlin It got the largest number of written signatures in the history of the city of berlin, but I remember the last time I saw Nuria She said to me, you know, look, it's great. I got to stay in my neighborhood. I'm really glad But I gained so much more than that I was surrounded by these incredible people all along and I would never have known And did you feel like you were like burning man or like a music festival or something like that? It sounds like organically a burning man that that That endures much longer, right and and and to me With a distinct purpose Yeah, I think so. I remember thinking You know when tungkai was thinking about tungkai being taken away thinking how many of us if someone carried us away would have Like a whole movement of people saying no, we look after this person, right? We love and value this person and I remember one of the turkish-german women um There neremen tanker her name is said to me That when she grew up in turkey she grew up in a village, right and she called her whole village home and then She came to live in in the western world and she learned that what we're meant to call home is just our four walls And then she said this whole movement happened And I started to think of this whole place and all these people as my home And she said she realized in some sense in this culture. We are homeless, right? You have a need for a home and the the concept of home We have is too small to cramped to narrow to meet the need we have to belong And I remember tanya Who'd been one of the people who'd started all this seeing with her outside to block that gay club one day and her saying to me you know When you when you can't say the word she said when you feel like crap and you're all alone Um, and you're home. You think there's something wrong with you But what we did is we came out of our corner crying And we started to fight And we realized we were surrounded by people who felt the same way And to me I think this is the best answer to your question Which is you can do a kind of fancy abstract question talk about individualism and I'm very happy to talk about all of that But to me the most important thing is that well if you're feeling this way if you're feeling this lack of Your psychological needs being met Just remember you are surrounded by people who feel the same way and it takes someone like nuria unintentionally in nuria's case to start that Just to sound the alarm signal and explain to people You know let let out the distress signal and people heard it and met it And I think you can tell I love these people in kotty, but in many ways, they're not exceptional They're completely random people who just happen to live on a housing project, right? And had the courage to to stand up and I think um This this hunger my book is called lost connections because I feel we have lost our connections to some of the most profound and important things in life and We need a process of reconnection and home building So the only thing and there's lots of other things I talk about in the book obviously It's just a small part of it, but but I do think we The the one good thing about the crisis we're in massively rising depression massively rising anxiety Massively rising addiction something you and I have both done a lot of work on and you do amazing work on And and and I would argue a rising political crisis The there's many things going on with all of them, of course, but I think something that connects all of them Is this deep disconnection From the things that really matter in life And and and we can answer those needs We can rebuild them and I go through lots of practical things that we can do as individuals as communities and as a society But I think it has to start with building a more accurate map of why we're in such pain in the first place with a minute left I'm gonna ask you because it takes much more than a minute to answer, but we'll do our best Maybe specific to vermont too since that's where we are Which is probably a great microcosm for the rest of the us in a lot of ways We have rural areas people who have difficulty accessing kinds of resources they might need We have a quote-unquote urban area, but sort of like a college town where it seems that people have plenty of resources But maybe psychologically lost The story you explained it reminds me of people who might say that in order to gain social cohesion to So people come out of the woodwork with the skills that they have to bear for a situation We needed some sort of a tragedy happening, but I don't think that's right. I don't think you need Yes, I see that from tragedy comes this sort of this sort of social glue coming together people Wanting to be something bigger than themselves But it sounds like there are probably more subtle ways to do it. I don't know if you have a yeah We're in the tragedy one in three middle-aged women in this country It's having to drug themselves to get through the day with a chemical antidepressant just to get through the day And there's loads more who are really distressed to are not taking those drugs The tragedy's happened. We can have a debate about do you need a tragedy or not? But we're in the middle of the tragedy, right? So I'd ask you at the end of romeo and julia Do we need a tragedy? Well, yet somehow our spider senses aren't Completely activated tingling but not completely activated like partly because we have told These very simplistic Diversionary stories not that there's no truth in the some truth in them But if what we've done is you've got this enormous amount of distress in the society We've just said to everyone. Oh, it's just a problem in each individual's brain Right, right that you can see how that it's not the intention of people who say it of course Who are decent people, but that diverts us away from seeing this is not a crisis in each isolated individual This is a crisis in the way we're living In the society and we have to deal with it at that level And there's loads of practical things we can do to do that People want to hear more about you your books and all of your writing and your work. How do you find you? If you go to www.johan for november H-a-r-i dot com or the lost connections dot com or chasing the screen dot com you can see where to follow me on social media and Where you can get my book and my audiobook or that I was asked in the interview recently At the end they're like, what's your twitter? What's your facebook? And then they're like, what's your snapchat? And I was like, I am a 40 year old man Right, I will go a long way to get my message out I will I do not have a snapchat and you should be very suspicious of any 40 year old Who does exactly like they should automatically be preemptively arrested, but um, but yeah, so anyway, that's what you'll confide out about me Thank you so much. We've had like two hours before to talk on that and it never feels like enough time So 30 minutes is completely unserious. Thank you for everything you do is that you did brilliant work. Thank you so much Thank you very much. Thanks for coming to vermont. Thank you to cctv channel 17 and the howard center where you on will be speaking tomorrow Unfortunately, you're probably listening or watching after he's already spoken But of course you can find lost connections and chasing the scream and find bookstores everywhere. Thanks