 So welcome everyone. This meeting is now being recorded. My name is Angela and I work for the town of Amherst. This recording will get uploaded to our town of Amherst YouTube channel in the near future. And at this point I will turn it over to the chair of the Jones library building design subcommittee. Christine Gray Mullins. Hello to all. I'm opening the design subcommittee meeting today is Thursday, January 19th at 430. And this is sort of a dual meeting so I will turn it over to the chair of the Jones library building committee. Thank you Christine. So I want to convene the jail BC meeting. I'll ask you all to signify your presence vocally. Christine. Yeah. Thank you Alex. Sharon. Here. George. Here. Paul. Yes. Sean. Yeah. And Austin is Austin. It's here. We are joined by our good colleagues from FAA and from colliers. And is there a quorum? Do we need to do anything about the equity subcommittee? I'm not seeing a quorum. Okay. So I'm on second here. No, wait, I'm wrong. I see a quorum now. The equity. So they need to convene their meeting. Okay. Sharon, who would you like me to bring into the room? Yeah, I got, I got the three. And now we would ask for a mean as the chair of the equity justice and inclusion subcommittee. To call her committee to order. So that. Hi. So that's all I have to say. You'll have to take attendance. Okay. Let's see who do we have. Okay. Calling the equity just subcommittee to order. I just want to make sure that everyone here is pre can be heard. Ginny Hamilton. Present. Walter Lloyd. And far. I mean, I'm present. Thank you. Terrific. Thank you all. Thanks to everybody for. Attending. We're going to do, this is a little different than we would normally do because we have two sets of minutes, I believe. So I'm going to ask first for a motion to approve the minutes of the. Building committee from January 5th, Angie. For those minutes in the packet. I don't think they were. I don't see them. So. We're not going to, we're not going to do them because they're not in the packet. So the next item Christine is for you to. To do as chair of the design subcommittee. I don't believe those minutes are in the packet. There are minutes from. 830 from the design subcommittee. I have not received them and I don't see them. Well, in the. On the town website. In the packet. Okay. Well, we'll, we'll leave it for the next time then. Sounds great. All right. Thank you so much, Christine. Sure. Next item. Is a report from the town manager. Mr. Backelman. Nothing to report. Very efficient. Okay. Finance update. Sean. Yeah, thank you, Austin. So been working with Craig to. Get a few consultants moving forward. We've given the okay for the FF and a consultant to move forward. Right. Working with FAA. And we just received proposals yesterday. A couple of days ago for commissioning consultant. And so we're still processing those. Great. I think we did the, we did the budget. Review at the last meeting. So I think that's it for finance update today. Unless Craig, you have anything you want to. All right. Terrific. Thank you very, thank you very much. Craig to you. Thank you. Awesome. May I share my screen? Fine with me. If you are, is that enabled Angie? Getting the message disabled participant screen sharing. And it's got to be you. There we go. Thank you. So to start things off. Take a, we'll give you a quick update on the schedule here. Zoom in so you can see it better. All right. So. We are at present at this red line, which indicates we are. Solidly in design development. That's a four month exercise and we're two thirds of the way through the first month. As discussed at the last meeting, the graphic indicating the period of impact. Of community input, we've extended that out and they're showing that now through the first half of design development. So that will continue through the end of February approximately. That's all for the schedule. Are there any questions? I'll pause for a moment. See if there's any questions about the schedule. Hearing none. I will move on. Let's see. Okay. So. Today, the design team has a number of items that they're going to share with us. And ask for feedback. But I want to start off with something that everyone I think is familiar with, but I just, it's very important. So I want to state it again that. For this project, you know, One of the driving factors is going to be the cost. The cost is always going to be in people's minds. It's always going to be a factor in the decision making process. So a number of the items that final Alexander is going to present tonight. They're going to represent or they're, they think, think that that represents. In their opinion. The. Option that gives the biggest benefit for the money. So that's sort of an opening idea, opening thought. The other thing I wanted to address is something that shows up on our. Agenda, but it's not ready for ready today. Let's see where is that. So they're going to talk about real quick about the VE list, get clarification on a couple of items. Talk about sustainability. The restrooms item is one that. Where we need to postpone until next week. January 26th. So what, you know, this body had asked for a study. For more open gender inclusive toilet room. Within the footprint of the previously approved layout. So that's something that will be presented next week. So without further ado, I'd like to turn over the. I'm going to turn it over to the next slide. And then I'm going to turn it over to the next slide. And then I'm going to turn the screen as well as the floor to find gold Alexander to bring us through. The items they prepared. And there are a couple that I have some input on. So what I'll do is I'll just. Pop my hand up when. When I see we've come across those. Terrific. Thanks. Ellen. Hi, everybody. Thank you for joining us. Yes. Thanks. Thanks for inviting us. Hopefully it's. Not snowing where you are. It's not snowing here yet. So I'm going to turn it over to the next slide. And then I'm going to turn it over to the next slide. Great. Great. Great job. Introing what we're going to talk about. And I'll, and just means going to take us through the slides. So just mean, I'll hand it over to you. And during just beans. Presentation. Let us know if you have any questions on the, on the way through. Great. Thanks. Thanks. I'm great. I right now, I can't share my screen. It says that it's still disabled. For me. Thank you. So as Craig mentioned, I think we'll be passing the baton a little bit. During this presentation, but we have a few items that we want to check in on and get confirmation on before, or as we proceed into DD. And so the first topic will be the sustainability goals that we touched base on a few years back and in several meetings with you folks. And so we'll just sort of quickly run through them. And anyone can stop me at any time if, if you need to, but we're going to start with the first goal, which was the UI goal. And we had, if everybody recalls, we had a baseline UI of 34 approximately. And that was for the design as had been submitted to the CLC. And that is without any of the additional ECMs that had been requested to be studied from all of you. So with that said, we took those ECMs. We had gotten approval to move forward with five ECMs, which are listed here with those additional ECMs. We were going to reduce the UI to approximately 29. Those ECMs are listed here as lighting controls, HVAC occupancy controls, HVAC demand ventilation controls, blood load controls, and photovoltaics. These are the five ECMs that we assume that we're moving forward with to wrap up the DDs. The one ECM we do want to touch base on, which I think Craig is probably going to chime in on and I see his hand is raised there, is the photovoltaic. We want to talk a little bit about that one. So Craig, you can feel free to jump in on this. Thanks, Josephine. And we may have talked about this in the past, but I'll refresh everyone's memory. So there are a couple of ways to obtain photovoltaic panels for this project. One option is for the library to buy them outright. I include it in the documents that we're going to be putting together and have the contractor purchase them. That does represent an upfront cost, which as we know with our budget challenges, that is not necessarily the best option. So you can buy them outright upfront costs and also maintenance costs over time. That would be something you have to work into the operational budget. Another popular way to get them is the building will be constructed to be PV ready, photovoltaic ready. And final Alexander can talk a little bit more about those details. But the prime concept is that once construction is complete or towards the end of construction, the library can engage a photovoltaic leasing company. And that leasing company will, this is sort of what you can do for your home as well. The leasing company will install and maintain the system after this project construction is done. And the benefit in the library benefits from that solar power, but without bearing the costs of installation and maintenance. So, given where we are, perhaps that latter option is, is better. But if the library does want to own the system outright, then Jones, you know, you know, you know, find gold Alexander's cost estimator had, had pegged that cost for the 10 kilowatt system. Between 45 and $50,000. So that's something that could be added in. But as mentioned before, we'll need something sort of taken out to kind of balance it off. I see Sean's got his hand up. Yeah, Sean. Craig, we could still choose to own the system, but do it after the project's concluded. Yeah. I mean, there's a, there's a benefit from including it now, or should we just plan to do it all after and look at that, make sure it's ready to go. Right. I think if the money were available, you say in the DD cost estimate, you know, that is something that we could look into. But assuming that. Our tight budget is going to continue. Yeah, either funding afterwards with other monies or, or doing one of these lease options. I think that's a good idea. I think that's a good idea. I think that's a good idea. Maybe the project's best path forward. Sharon. Yeah, I want to know if, so we, we've signed a memorandum of understanding with mass save. Depending on. What are EUI will be. Not only once it's built, but a year afterwards. And then we get rebates and I, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if those rebates pay for its pay, pay this $50,000. I don't want to not have the panels, whether we own or lease, if it's going to negate that opportunity. Very good point. So the. What, what the town or library has signed with. Ever source or massive is not binding. So that was just sort of an early estimate and then they'll, that'll be sort of confirmed later on down the line. And yes, you're right. The money won't become available until the very end of the project. Once the library has demonstrated that it has taken action on all the things that it, it promised and an audit is performed. In either. If I recall correctly, and maybe Josephine, you can, you can back me up. I don't know. The UI delta between having the onsite power generation and not. Was somewhat small. So that 10 kilowatt system. Is only providing. I think 1% of your peak energy use. And so it's. I guess we'd have to look into what the difference in UI is and what the difference between the two. The difference between the two. The difference between the two. And then a difference between the two. And the difference between the two. So that was a, that was like in our, in the rebate. We're incentive. And sort of make, make a value decision. Christina. Yeah, it's just building on that. So. I see the 29.1. And what is the number that we really want to be above? And what kind of commit won't do? We have to have with the solar to. Make sure we're not. Missing something. So I don't have that. My fingertips. My recollection of. I'm looking back to my notes from the ever source meeting. Want me to. Here. Chime in. Alex. Oh, I would check. I want to get Alex in, please. Alex. That's okay. Cause I think Josephine might be saying it and, and the ever source meeting is perhaps different than the information that I have, which is the chart that you guys put together. So the, so the photo will takes reduced it by 0.64. That was. The estimate at least, but I don't know what changed in the meetings with ever source. So if there's more current information. Thank you. Josephine. And that is correct. We had a 0.64 and that was for the amount of panels that we were showing at that. At that moment with. The array that we had developed, which was I think 10 kilowatt. It, I think the original goal, someone had asked about the UI and I think you guys were between 25 and 30. So. We landed at 29 with these PCMs. And I want to say that the mass save. There was a tier one and a tier two and. Was 30. The goal. In other words, we, we meet it at 29.1. Correct. Yeah. So I was looking back at my notes and it matches what Sharon was just saying. So that if you're, if you have an EUI lower than 30, then the construction incentive is $2 a square foot. So keep, so it looks like keeping the EUI below 30, the, the eventual final EUI. That is. A good target. Alex. Yeah, I just want to echo something that Todd Holland on our sustainability committee has said a couple of times that, you know, our EUI goals are, are, are good, but actual usage of electricity in the building. And so if our target is 30, you know, and we're at 29 solar panels, we're going to have a small impact, but at the end of the day, you know, meeting that goal of 29 30 is going to come down to actual use. In the building. So I don't. Again, I don't know enough to know that whether it's 0.64, having it solar ready, as opposed to putting the panels on, it's going to make that big a difference as much as how we actually use things. Well, once we get into building. And I know that Todd Holland and Sarah Draper are both in the audience. So if at some point you want their actual expertise, just letting you know they're out there. All right. So Josephine and Ellen, it would be very helpful if you would remind us by framing what it is that we're actually now trying to accomplish with this. So you are presenting this for. What purpose. Ellen, feel free to jump in, but to confirm that this is what we are moving forward with for DD. Okay. So this is a confirmation. This is what the plan is. You want us to say, yes, go ahead with this. Is that correct? That's correct. Okay. So I think it would be very helpful to go through this. And then to see if Todd or Sarah, whoever else is here could actually comment on this. That would I think be very helpful. So why don't you go through the rest of this on the sustainability goals. Right. So moving on to the next one, which was on site renewables. That sort of brings us back to the PV panels. We are currently assuming that we would be moving forward with that. I think the offsite renewables was sort of table, but that's something we can, we can discuss to towards the end of this. The elimination of fossil fuels was next, but I think that was an easy one because we decided we're all electric. And so that one seemed to be a pretty easy one across the board during our meetings previously. Next would be low embodied carbon materials. And this one is going to require a little bit more discussion because this introduces the CLT into the design. One other item that we'll be pursuing through DD is looking, you know, starting to look at materials that also have low embodied carbon. So it'll be an ongoing discussion, but or an ongoing research for us. But tonight we want to get into the CLT discussion a little bit. Further, which we will in a minute. Going to the next page. The last sustainability goal was the old building life cycle assessment. And this will be updated. We don't have the exact date of when we will be doing that, but it will be run again during the DD. And that's with the Tally software that we have. So we're going to look at the whole building design again. And the materials. So. Let's back to the CLT. If you want to talk about the goals. We'll go back to this, go back to the CLT. Okay. So. And Josephine, we should just remind folks that the CLT, where we ended up the last time we talked about this in detail, was that it's a hybrid system. Because of the nature of the building. That's correct. And, and so hybrid can mean a lot of things. Yes. What we wanted to do tonight was sort of clarify what we're looking at currently what our structural engineer is actually looking at right now. Things could shift a little bit, but the general feel of where CLT will be introduced in the addition is something we wanted to run by everyone tonight. So we wanted to make sure that everybody's on the same page when we say hybrid and what that actually means. So we have a set of plans to sort of run through. And, and we sort of color coded it to. Introduce, you know, different color for steel and different color for wood. So everybody can sort of get a feel of, of how things are going to start to lay out. In addition. So what we've done here is color code. The steel and blue and the CLT in a reddish, orange tone. And this is not to scale. So don't be afraid when you see very large columns. Introduced here, but we are showing the blue as the columns, beams and slab. So what this means basically is that we have. We have a lot of columns at the garden level, which we're in right now. When you look up, you would see. Steel beams. And steel structure, steel and concrete. The columns would be still at this level. So everything at the ground level. Would be a steel and concrete system. And Josephine with the design, we will probably end up covering. The entire amount of that with. Steelings and that kind of thing. But I think the general just is that. This whole level. Is a traditional steel in concrete. Moving up to. The next level. This would be level one that you're standing up. So the first floor. At grade. And. You're seeing a mix here. You're seeing a mix here. You're seeing a mix here. You're seeing a mix here. And so you're seeing the slab highlighted in that red. Orange tone. And that's because if you were looking up at level one. You would be seeing the CLT. Because from here out from here on up. The horizontal. Structure will be. CLT. So you would see wood at the ceiling. And a lot of the beams. And a lot of the wood. And a lot of the wood. And a lot of the wood. And a lot of the wood. As well. And same with the columns. The red squares that you see would be glue lands. So the introduction of steel here. Is. For a couple of reasons, but. The building. Needs lateral support. So the easiest way. The most cost effective way is really doing it. Steel. And. This is why they are introducing. Steel. And the locations of where you're seeing them. Again, they are still really looking. This is a big picture. They're still designing. But this is where they're at the moment introducing steel at this first floor level. Josephine, I see that Sean might have a question. Sean. Yeah. Thank you, awesome. Josephine, you don't have to do it now. Obviously, but maybe later. Could you show us a picture of what. A combination of steel and CLT looks like. What it would look like. Yes. Yeah. Actually, we do have some images. Perfect. Yeah. Just to keep in mind too, is that even though we do have steel columns here, we could wrap them in wood. To, you know, emphasize the feel that. But there is CLT, you know, surrounding the space. We don't necessarily have to. Expose the steel. We can hide it if you don't want that look. It's, but it's. Structurally, this is how it's being. Introduced right now into the structure. So. Going up to the second floor. But do you want to talk about the back wing, Josephine? Oh, sure. Yep. So. Let's go back. Sorry. We'll slow. So the back wing, they're introducing more steel for. Again. Moment connections. And not introducing a variation of. What could be a more complicated system. If it was all CLT. So they are introducing more steel in this back. In addition here. So they're keeping horizontal a CLT. But introducing steel columns and beans. Again, also because of the lateral movement. As well. Could you just say, I'm sorry, Ellen, that, that may mean a lot to people that doesn't, to me exactly bilateral movement. Could you just tell me what you mean? So it means really movement side to side, right? Is because at some point. There's a prediction we're going to have a earthquake in all of our buildings have to come up to a certain level of an earthquake code. And that's what we mean by lateral movement. In this, the addition is essentially independent of the existing building. So it has to withstand that on its own. I see. Okay. Thank you. And then, and so to add to that, these. Lateral systems are. We're not structural engineers, but they're, they have to remain in structural steel. To, to keep that. That connection, you know, it's like a moment connection. Yeah. And so if they, if they don't, then it can become there. The structural system can become quite complex. And of course, more costly. So, and as Craig said that early on, this is the, this is the hybrid and it's the most. Economical. But buildable, right? That we, we're getting a, well, we're getting CLT. And I think one of the. Main things we were thinking about is we're getting CLT in, in a very public area. If you could point to that, Josephine, as you come in and pass the, the CERC desk, that, that's big and open and it's all CLT. So that's where we are with this. And as Josephine said, we're still looking at this, but we, but the, when we say hybrid, that means so many things to so many different people. That's why we're going through this. It may feel a little tedious, but I think we want you folks to understand what we're doing and why. Moving up to the second floor, it's somewhat similar. Again, a mix of wooden steel, a little bit more wood at this level. But again, you know, they've got some steel coming across here for again, that lateral component. But they're able to introduce a little bit more wood in this level. And the same holds true with the back here is that they're keeping the steel, the beams and columns as steel. So we can go on to some images. Sharon, I see you have a question. I just a question about that back. You said that. So it's steel. I understand on the first floor why it's got to be the steel. But can this not be the wood? Not at this, not in this design. We would have to go back and recalculate everything. But one thing we should show you just when David sent it in our teams chat, a really nice image of steel with CLT. Can you bring that up? I can give me one second. There's two websites, I think. It's the first one. And keep in mind, the other part of this, not to complicate things is all of our, when we have CLT, we're going to be exposing. To expose the CLT, the conduits for electrical, we're going to be exposing ductwork. We're going to be exposing sprinkler lines. Can you see that on my page now? Yes, just fine. Maybe you want to zoom in a little bit. So this was one thing. And there's another one too. Yeah, this is, I thought was a good one. That shows how the main frame of this structure is steel. And then we have the combo with CLT. But you know what Sharon, to you, I'm sorry, Austin, but we can, we can ask again, we are told this is, this is the best we have at the moment. And if we do, I don't even know if we have an option to change it without kicking up this cost substantially, but we can ask that. No, don't, you know, you've answered my question. Good enough. Thank you. Alex, let me ask a question before, if I may. So, Ellen, I had this naive impression that this whole building was going to be CLT. Correct. So, and I'm just trying to understand this, the, the kind of evolution, maybe I was wrong to have that imagining, but that was my imagining is, is the evolution to this hybrid design driven by some code requirements. You have to have steel here and you give, is it driven by cost as a driven by design. I mean, kind of why are we, why are we here as opposed to my imagining of it CLT everywhere. And just being, you can chime in, but I will say it's not, it's not designed in the perfect world. Austin, we would have it all would, if we would. Right. So it's partly it's the code requirement from, in terms of the, as I mentioned, the lateral load that is a code requirement. Okay. How it, and that's why we're bringing this up and you're reinforcing the facts. Good thing we did bring it up now because we didn't want everybody to be surprised when they walk in the library. And Josephine, do you recall the, the, and it was spent a little while, the progression on this. Well, I think the main thing is the structural calculations and looking at the whole building as a whole and, you know, seismic and, and, you know, now that the structural engineers looking in depth. I mean, of course it can always be done, but it's more I think cost associated than it is even code. Code of course is required because of, you know, lateral loads. But I think they can meet them, but I think some, sometimes it can get quite complex. So I don't know to what extent I mean we can check in with, with RSE and try to get a better understanding of how complex it would be. But my understanding is that it was, it was a cost from a cost standpoint. And the cost factor would be the, if it was all my understanding is Austin, if it's all with. Wood connections where we need these lateral connections, it gets quite complicated and expensive. It's just not connecting the two. It's more gusset plates and that kind of thing. But I think we can follow we absolutely will follow up with with Jennifer again from our structural engineer. Okay. Alex. I mean, perhaps you're already going to do this Austin, but my guess is that Todd and Sarah probably have some questions that you might all benefit from. So I'm sure my, my hope was just to get this whole presentation done and then, then to bring them in if that's okay. Yeah, fine by me. I just didn't know if they had specific questions here. And so you wanted them here or you just want them all at the end. My hope was just to show the whole thing and then to bring them in and I can ask questions any part of it. That's, if that's all right. Yeah, Josephine Ellen. Okay, so yeah, these were just some more images. But that webpage actually was quite indicative of, you know, what you would be seeing with a stale and CLT structure. So that will get sort of close up the sustainability goals and then we have some value engineering items. Yeah, so let's, let's, let's see if Sarah or Todd there. And if they want to be brought in, that would be terrific Todd is in Sarah want to be brought in. Todd, do you have any questions or comments on any of this or Sarah. Sure. I can go. Yes, please. Thank you. Thank you. I think that was the hybrid, the pictures of the steel frame and the CLT. When the building's actually finished. I'm used to seeing a spray applied fireproofing on the steel is that something like that would would be the final look of that once the building is done. I don't think the still needs to be rated on this building but we'll just double check. I don't have that. We did the code so long ago. I don't think we will. But if it was, if it was with five, if we needed fireproofing, we have the option to cover it. And that's probably what we would do just to keep it protected from being knocked off. It looks. The black steel looks nice in those pictures, but it's a little different when it's that gray cellulose. Yeah, agree. I think my main question is just do we know yet what impact this hybrid version versus a fully wood version is going to have on the full, the full embodied carbon footprint of the building. I mean that's, if I'm going to be boring, that's all I care about. No, yeah, we don't have, we wouldn't know that until we ran the report. Yeah, right. And that report wouldn't happen till that that update wouldn't happen till the end of DD. I think we'd have to look at when we could run the best time to run it. You know, all of the elements have to just be in place in the model for us to run it so it wouldn't have to be the end. But we want to make sure that a lot of it's in there before we, before we actually do it so that way we get something that's pretty, you know, pretty close to accurate moving forward. That's really challenging because it's sort of like we won't know the impact of the decision until you make we make the decision and I don't know how to operate in that space but maybe I don't have to. Well, it may be, it may be that we have to, we have to see if we can do it earlier but the, the question is, is, you know, if, if, if the committee said, you guys are, your mission is to make it all wood. I can't that will impact the cost. Absolutely. I can't tell you how much. So if we, if we can do a little side study with Craig and his team to figure that out. But we do know just think do you mind bringing the plan back up this was helpful. And David thank you for sending that to us. The plan one thing in it. And this is probably off the table with you guys if you go yeah so that back wing. If we went to all steel and metal deck and concrete that'd be a decent savings. So, there may be and I don't can't don't quote me on this. If there may be a trade off that if we could get more steel back in the back wing, we may have more flexibility in the front. But we this that would be a separate little study that that we could do. But what we have and I think Craig mentioned it it's the most cost effective approach. As we stand here today, unless we can, you know, get figure out other ways to reduce costs are there. But one of the, like having the low carbon materials, you know, some of that is yet to be explored like some of those material choices that might happen later in design. How much do you feel is still on the table for like down the road decisions that may still help save carbon because I, from my experience the structural piece is the biggest piece but yeah, every project is different. And just being that's that you know that what we're what we're so design development we're picking finishes we're picking exterior materials, we're picking mechanical systems. So those we we've settled on mechanical because we're all electric, which is where we are. I don't I can't answer that without thinking about it in more detail. I don't know if you can chime in just being. It's tough, I agree. You know, we can definitely shoot for, you know, as many materials as we can to, you know, reduce that number, but without having those settled and running the report, it would be so hard to, to have an idea of like how much we would be saving or, you know, right, how much we would actually need to, you know, go back to, you know, the number that we were at previously, assuming that we were, we would be at a little bit higher up a number. So it's really tough right now to just mean running the tally is not it's involved. It's not a quick. It is and that's why I wanted all the, all the big ticket items to sort of be in the model before we did that because I, I think it's it's somewhat of a big production and takes a bit of time so we just want the model to be as up to date as possible to get something, you know, pretty accurate. Again, I want to come back to, I think the question Sarah raised because I'm, I'm a little, I'm a little confused. So you are asking us to sign off on this without you or us knowing what the quote cost is to embody to the effort to reduce embodied carbon. Just fine. Let me just ask the question to just being just being without digging up the tally model. Where did that. What did that include I don't recall. We would have to take that up it was I don't, I can't say what percentage was covered for as CLT in the space, we'd have to look and see how much of it was CLT because we always had hybrid as we mentioned we just don't know what the percentages were so we would have to dig that up to compare. Right, and we do have that data but we don't it's not at our fingertips but it we did. So the model was set on a hybrid system. So we, it was never calculated as what everywhere, because we couldn't do it. We couldn't do it. Yes on the structure at that point. But is the, is the model calculated on this distribution of steel and would we would have what just means we'll have to double check Austin we ran that model like four years. Yeah, yeah, I know it's totally that is totally fine. And then the question, and I see Chris riddle is there and I'll just one, one more thing before calling on Chris, and then this question of cost, and it's, I understand that this is more cost effective but I wonder, is there any way to translate that into, you know, an order of magnitude. That's what I had, I mentioned that maybe not clearly, Austin is we can talk to work with Craig, make a couple of calls to our structural folks and see what we can come up with for sure. Okay, thank you so much. So Chris riddle, if he could be brought in Chris. Hear me. There you go. Yes, thank you. I simply want to call everybody's attention to the fact that there exists two buildings that are 100% COT in town, the Hitchcock Center and the current center. And it's not like the Hampshire College or the Hitchcock Center are very wealthy clients. There was a tight budget for both of those projects. I really much like to see it with a number for something that it's entirely entirely COT. That's all I have to say. Thank you Chris. Ellen. Joseph. Do you want us to respond to that. Well, you're the rising intonation of your voice suggests that you would not like to but no I will I'm happy. I didn't want to jump in where I wasn't supposed to Austin. Yeah, we're happy. You know what, as I said, well, we can work with Craig, Craig chime in. I mean, we could work and do what folks are asking. Yes. Yeah. And is that a go ahead quick. Yes. And so, right now, or for the rest of the project, you guys have two cost estimates one that the design team's hired one that the town is hired directly. So, not as far as I know, neither of them are contracted for this study so we can. So the first step would be like, Hey, fellas, you know, to do this study, give us a quick proposal. I'm sure it won't be a lot of money but it's something that we'll have to ask them to get a proposal and go through it. I think, you know, it's, it's an unequivocal fact that an all timber building is going to be more expensive than all steel building and then a hybrid is kind of in between them. So we know that switch going to all mass timber is going to be more expensive. And, you know, given the budget challenges we have this, it may prove to be a study that is academic only but doesn't, you know, in the end, doesn't really change anything. And I won't ask the same question again more costly by an order of what that's the just that's the question that once without knowing that thing. Yeah, it's a little it's just a little hard. We take it. I take it that you don't have those information at hand. So I see Christine and then and then Sarah. Christine. Yeah, Josephine if you could just sort of explain a little bit, because I think we have a lot of different ceilings going on here like we're mostly focused on this area right now but how would the transitioning go from say like adult reading area, you know what's on that ceiling, and then we have the ceiling with a lot of more wood, and then the backs deal with the CLT. So what, you know, would there be wood finishes at all like can we afford that in in some of these other ceilings or do we just go to the acoustical tile, like, what happens. So, when you when you say other do you mean in the existing way. Yeah, yeah. So, we can certainly talk about finishes in these spaces, but we do, I do believe in Craig feel free to chime in but the I think wood ceilings was the eat out so yeah so we wouldn't be looking at wood ceilings in these spaces. Can I just chime in one of the things this brings up the historicness of the existing Christine I what we would typically do on an existing building, if possible we would keep the existing ceilings as much as possible right in their plaster. Well, if we couldn't save the ceilings because we're doing too much work in there, we would go back with some with another gypsy link. So would essentially look the same so that's. So what our design thought is the existing building ceilings and walls will look as much like they do today, and when we're done. Right so we're saving as much of that historic fabric as absolutely possible. I don't know if that helps answer you. That's great so where there's plaster or you know smooth what people see that is what you try to put back in some areas where they just had too much Conrad to eat you might have to like in offices. I don't know if that's his past physical ceiling. Because we have to take into account the occupants right so in an in an office that may make better sense to put an acoustic ceiling in there, you know for noise so we do evaluate what kind of space, kind of noise. So, and we call it back of house, being the office space would probably be acoustic tile if we have to replace the ceiling. Okay, so we have a lot of ceilings going on. Yes. Thank you. I was having a perfectly great conversation with myself. Sarah. Okay, I couldn't tell if I lost my sound or you know it was me. Okay. It's not another question I just wanted to make this statement again, because otherwise all of this conversation about embodied carbon and wood versus steel and concrete begins to sound really pedantic, but just like the reason that I'm harping and others might be harping is, you know, part of the original decision making a few years ago when we were brought on as sustainability committee was is doing something like our big question was is doing something better than doing nothing or is doing something better than some potential alternative, and a big driving factor in the yes behind that decision was, we can do it without kind of blowing the carbon budget out of the water so that that's why I'm being annoying about this. And I'm not necessarily speaking to the design team here because I know you guys know that but not everyone was like in those conversations however many years ago when we were talking about this. So I just wanted to put that to the room like that's why we're, we're worried about what these design decisions, what their impact will have on them body carbon because that was part of the go no go. Right but in though. Sarah we the at the end of that those conversations we had it was a hybrid system. So it was those discussions was not all wood. So the, I think in Austin you, you had a good question is what we're asking you guys for. It's really, this is for us informational, we're showing you where we are right. And I think these are all good questions. And I think we, you know, our mission is just to go back and have a couple of conversations with our structural engineer and see what we can do. If we can reduce the steel and where we can reduce it. And I guess I would be curious, and maybe Craig, you can yell at me if you want but do we, would we ever consider doing the rear wing, all in steel and in metal deck and getting more wood in the main section. If that's an all, if that's an option. Craig do you want to speak some words of wisdom. So, so I, this is not in response to what Ellen just said but something we were talking about three minutes ago, and that was the order of magnitude for the cost so we have to point to data points. The first one is sort of industry wide so a number of months over the summer I attended a training seminar for was actually geared for cost estimators. I was going to weasel my way in there. And what they, you know, it was hosted by Woodworks, which is an expert in the industry. They do engineering design support for wood structures. And that was the question on everyone's mind, what is the cost difference and they said they were kind of cute about it they're like well depends on the details this and that. So there's a lot of factors that go into it but they said in general. So the traditional concrete and steel construction versus glue lamb and clt is $7 per square foot less expensive. So just plugging that into the size of our building that's over $300,000 difference, and that is for all stealing concrete versus all mass timber. Another data point we have is for this project and on our value engineering list, the cost estimators looked at putting in steel frame and metal deck, instead of the timber throughout the building. And that was a $450,000 difference in their opinion. So. So yeah so some some big numbers we're talking. Can you repeat that. Craig so if we went with all steel and metal deck and concrete it would be a savings. Right, a 450,000, which, because that was out of step with the goals of the project. Yes. You know back at the end of schematic design that one those were taken off the tables and I know we do want as much wood as we can get. Okay. So, Alex. I guess I just want to. I think the thing that I'm not 100% clear on is so when we did the whole building life cycle analysis and we came up with the, you know, the carbon load. It was based on a hybrid and I guess the piece that I'm missing is. Again, how much this differs from, where is where is the balance short concrete versus clt from where we, whatever we base the numbers on when we did the analysis like do we have a sense of, we're talking 20% more steel than we did are we talking. Like, I guess that's part of the understand. I think I, I, Alex I'd love to tell you this is exactly what we based it on. Right. This is, this is in the ballpark but I don't want to. I don't want to say that and be incorrect. So if we will double check that right we and we probably should have done it before this meeting, we weren't thinking that but it's a good question and we have to go back and check the tally. And we can do that in the next few days. Okay. So that also I think just to get the could someone take down the diagram for one sec. I think that to get the sequence. Right, what you were talking about before Craig with going back and somebody's going to have to do more work and it's going to cost us more money that getting the answer to the question that Alex just raised would be a preliminary to that. So if you come back and you say well we've had to add 40% more steel or something that's different than if you come back and you say there's, there's no difference between what we had and what it is now. And I think that that getting clarity on that would be very helpful. And again I'm going to say what I think many people might have understood and I did as well which is this is going to be cross laminated timber. So the idea that it was a hybrid from the time that we were talking about it. I think we need as much clarity about that's what it was and this doesn't change it this changes it by just a little. Before we go off and bid other things I think finding that out would be a good thing to do. Okay, so any other questions now about the sustainability piece. And again I appreciate I just want to restate this is for informational purposes. Okay, so if there are no other questions about the sustainability piece then can we go to the value engineering piece and talk about bringing back the sort to through. Absolutely. Okay. Let me share my screen. As I'm sure Craig cringes right. Okay, so we have three items on that value engineering list that we sort of pulled out of praise. Lovely list that he had drawn up last year. And so the next item of course the CLT the next one was on the side to through. Yeah, Josephine can I just let me just jump in why we're asking this again, right because we know what Austin's going to say we already talked about this, but what if we're at the point of no return in the drawings, if we were right now, there's no sawtooth. Anybody to say that's correct, or that's wrong, but I'll go ahead just. No, I think that's exactly where we are. It's a complicated system. And there's been a little bit of back and forth since the discussions that we all had last year, regarding the sawtooth through. And so we want to make sure we're all in the same thinking the same thing and in the same place with where we're working with that piece of the design. Alex. And Craig I'm I think beating Craig to the punch so we had proposed changing slate to synthetic slate, and at the time that we made the decision about the sawtooth roof we didn't know the savings and so the conversation was. Once we know the savings doesn't come back and come back and consider, you know, a partial or limited. I guess, from my perspective. Once I know the answer to this CLT question that might inform the thought like if we have an extra sort of savings that we can use, should we be using it towards the CLT or should we be using it for the sawtooth and that's out there. Thank you Alex Craig. Thank you Austin. So, with the roof. There are a number of factors that are all sort of in play. As we all remember we were we removed the sawtooth feature in order to reduce the cost. As Alex correctly just recalled for us, the, you know, moving from a real slate replacement roof to a synthetic slate replacement roof does save somewhere in the order of $300,000. So at the time we said okay well maybe we do go back to the sawtooth. However, in talking with find Alexander. We are, we know that the project is counting on the historic tax credit. Right. We, we don't, I don't think anyone can say for certain, whether going to synthetic slate does not jeopardize that tax credit. So, because we can't say for certain, we, you know, so we, I think we all understand that Amherst historic based on their precedents will be okay with the synthetic, but that tax credit, perhaps is not we've been told is a very competitive thing, and sort of the more you do the better. So we are concerned about counting on those savings. If later we find out that to get your tax credit, you're needed real slate roof. So we're a little uneasy about plowing that money into sort of the, the new additions roof. The other things that sort of factor in is while we have taken out the sawtooth elements. We do still have a in the design and in the cost estimate along skylight sort of right down the spine of the addition. MBLC has been very vocal about their displeasure with skylights. So the, so another option is a light monitor, which is sort of similar to a sawtooth light monitor but different geometry so that the glasses vertical. So that's sort of a factor as well like getting natural light in so there's a benefit to getting natural light and perhaps instead of skylight we're doing a light monitor. The other thing that kind of weighs in so now we're balancing all these factors is we're talking about the photo tech group panels. Once we had the sawtooth roof there was not a whole lot of space physical space for the PV panels. Now that those are gone and we have a lot more flat roof. We actually open up the opportunity for instead of 10 kilowatt PV array, perhaps a larger PV array. So they're in there all interconnected to historic tax credit, you know, construction budget, getting natural daylight in MBLCs aversion to skylights and availability of open flat roof for PV array. So it's it's a multi headed decision so I just wanted to put all those complications out there so we can start sorting through them. So again, I just want to make sure I understand so this is confirm the approach. So this is you want us not just to be informed but you want us to say yes from as you go into further design development work. You should be confident of these assumptions is that right. That's correct. Yeah. So I just speak for myself as the, as I recall, it was a pretty clear decision about not going forward with the sort to sort tooth roof. And there was some as Alex pointed out some possibility that we talk about maybe fewer of these sort of roof design. But at this point, unless someone tells me differently, I don't know why we would revisit it at this point. But someone may feel strongly they want to revisit it. I, I, I love them but I lost so I'm not saying that we should revisit them. Sharon. I feel like based on everything that Craig just said that we should not revisit it. Yeah. So does anybody on this one think that there's anything that we need to say about revisiting the sort to roof. I'm hoping that you'll, that you'll distribute to each of us a little model based on the original design so I can keep the sort to roof on my desk but for this purpose I think we should go on to the next item. Great. Thank you, Austin. So, the next and last item was just what we are going to be doing with the existing windows and the original structure. We, it's highlighted in the the list that get issued. I don't think it was fully clear to us which direction to go in with those and whether we're replacing the windows or not. Craig. So the, the current cost estimates include replacing the windows so this committee did not opt to grab the savings potential savings of keeping the existing windows. Sharon. Can you tell me, so I love I'm going to put George on the spot I'd love for George to talk about the condition of our existing windows because they're not great I sit next to them and I swear. Yeah, it's not good but how much if we did cut it what if we left the windows alone how much are we talking about saving. It was 170,000. But as a as a corollary to that I question whether or not we can have a high performance building with an EUI sub 30 with existing windows. George, and I think part of part of that conversation was, what would it cost to restore the original windows to make them more efficient and I think that's why we are taking it off the table to leave the original windows here. And the answer that was repairing windows will in the cost of this experience cost the same as replacing them when all said and done. So again I'm just going to pose it in the same way. Is there any inclination to revisit this decision to confirm that we will be replacing the existing windows. Okay. Paul. Are there any historic tax considerations for this. Craig. I think not because it'll be replaced with something that looks historic, and that is lots of precedent for that. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Okay, any other questions now about the window issue. Okay. So, great. Thanks to FAA for the work and for the work that you will do and the work that you have done. We'll look forward to hearing back from you on this question about the steel versus wood issue. Craig, something else from you. Nope, that's all I've got. Right. So there was something in this packet proposal for interior design services. Craig. Yes, actually, thank you bring that up. So that is, that would be a consultant to the design team. Let's see. I think it was $102,000. So a very reasonable fee for the services they'll be providing. The first couple phases something that was important to the town was limiting the exposure on cost and so the first couple phases I think only total $17,000. A low commitment. But then by the end of the project, you know, the full cost will be 102,000. But yeah, so this is it's, it's got my recommendation for, you know, approval. Paul and Sean have, we've talked about it with them. They're comfortable with it. They're comfortable with the design team moving forward. And so the next step is the design team will take that proposal and put it into a request, an additional services request, something that the town can review and sign to make it official. So does anybody have any questions about this proposal for interior design services that was included in the packet. So one thing that wasn't clear to me I'm sorry maybe it is in the proposed fees it says programming schematic design $17,000. That gets us through to October and then design development. How does that. I just don't have your chart in front of me how does that kind of sequence in with the whole design development. Great question. So the interior design. They have their own schematic design phase and their own design development phase and so it lags behind the architectural schematic design design development. So those are activities that haven't started yet so Ellen and Josephine can probably speak to it with more accuracy than I can but basically the schematic design for Staphora will be running in order to allow with the design development and construction documentation by the does by the architects. Yeah. Yeah, Josephine did you want to say anything else about that terms of the sequencing of the work. No, I think that's that makes it clear. Okay. So, Sean and Paul do you need anything from the committee do you need an endorsement of recommendation. So, if the committee wants to indicate approval for it now when we do get that request for additional services we can move forward with it. Or we can wait till we actually have it if the committee wants to see it first so we could either ways probably better to wait till we actually have it. Great. Great. Thank, thank, thanks so much. All right Craig anything else. No sir. Thank you as always. The next item is a report from the design subcommittee. Christine. Nothing to report. Thank you, Alex from outreach. So, as everybody knows, I think the survey closed for the bathroom design. We received actually got one more in so 212 surveys about 60 of them were handwritten surveys and the rest were electronic. And I forwarded a link to everyone in the committee so you can review the results. Also a link that we can put publicly if we want again I just it's however people want to people want to put it as part of the meat whatever people want to do it's available. And then if people want to see the information in a different way just let me know and I can try to formulate it differently but it was, I think I think 212 people was a pretty good one. And yeah, so happy to have heard from the public a lot, a lot of good feedback actually a lot of thoughtful feedback which I was super appreciative people really really took it seriously and thought about what was important to that so I appreciate everybody who responded in the public. Yeah, I thought the results were very, very, very helpful. So Jenny. Thanks Austin and I'm not sure if this is the right time for this I know that we're not. And with my equity subcommittee had on I know we're not talking today more in detail about the garden level bathrooms. However, at our recent subcommittee meeting we were talking about bathrooms as a whole in the building and I wanted to at least raise that question knowing that designs are moving quickly. So having that discussion and looking at the garden level primarily. We brought up the idea of accessibility in the stalls and the room for people using whether it be a mechanical wheelchair having an assistant in there with them, so on and so forth. So we started looking through the plans and other levels of the building it was unclear whether the single unit bathrooms on every floor were fully accessible in the current design. So wanted to raise that because that would be the desire and but didn't know. I don't know how to read architectural design so just wanted to bring it up as as part of that conversation. Greg, do you have anything you want to I do not know offhand and perhaps the design team can take a look at their drawings and by you know for the meeting next week. Right. Speak to that. But we have just been we have that as a quick answer. Yes, all the other bathrooms are accessible. Absolutely. Great. Okay, thank you so much. Thank you. Appreciate you confirming that. Okay, Alex again, anything else from outreach. So I do want to just say a extraordinary and special word of thanks to Alex and the outreach committee the survey thing is phenomenal and Alex is both a magician and a very, very attuned member of the community in terms of making sure that all voices get heard so I thank you for putting together this survey. Okay, I have no correspondence that I know of no topics not anticipated within 48 hours. We have I think I see 11 attendees if any member of the public which is to comment if they would raise their virtual hand. Okay, I see no member of the public. Thanks to comment or speak. I want to thank the 11 attendees for for for attending. I want to thank you for all of you good work this afternoon and I think we can stand adjourned online. I just want to make sure do we need the adjournment of the design committee and then the equity subcommittee Angie. Okay, so let's do it in the following order so equity subcommittee how about you adjourn equity subcommittee is adjourned. Thank you Austin. Thanks to the equity subcommittee for joining this meeting Christine design subcommittee. We are adjourned. And the jail BC is adjourned see all soon stay well everybody. Thank you. Bye bye.