 All the way from a fresh off the stage of another very successful ad color show, we flew them in last night. I'm really, really thankful that they're here. We're honored that they're here to grace this stage. Having a conversation with, having a fireside conversation is the Chief Diversity Officer of Omnicom and also the founder of Ad Club, Tiffany Warren, in conversation with the new CMO of Endeavor, Bozoma St. John. Give him a round of applause. You can keep clapping. Yes, we're not at our seats yet. Thank you. Clearly, I like drama and theater. Correct. So yeah, we just found out that it just says keynote in the agenda. So technically, we can talk about anything. Oh, girl, good. Yeah. Let's talk about whatever we want. But we won't scare the organizers. We'll talk about what we're here to talk about, which is brands and crisis. You guys have come from many different places to hear this conversation with Boz. And I'm honored to sit here with her. Are we just finished? I feel like we're on a tour. Yes, we are. She just finished hosting the 12th annual Ad Color Awards. And she, yeah, give it up. Which was founded by Tiffany R. Warren. She had a couple of firsts there. The first to have, at least, was it five outfit changes? I mean, you know, I like to get dressed. Yeah, like four or five outfit changes. She was the first to come out on the stage to African drummers. Yeah, because African. Yeah. She was like calling the spirits into the room. The ancestors needed to be in the room. Yes. Yes. But I want to publicly thank you for doing an amazing job. So let's get started since we have a short amount of time. But today we're talking about brands and crisis. And we both know a little bit of something about that, particularly in my day job, in terms of working with clients on sometimes their brands and crisis, particularly around diversity and inclusion. And Boz can certainly talk about some of the experiences she had. And we talked about, particularly the title of this conversation. It feels like, at least on a day-to-day basis, we're holding our breath, waiting for something to happen. So how is that sort of holding your breath feeling, particularly in the role that you have, and as it relates to the brands that you've worked with over the years? Yeah. Well, I think this is, you know, this is a really important conversation for us to be having, especially as marketers and advertising executives and professionals that we are creating the conversations, we're creating the narrative that is happening in our world constantly in big ways and in small ways. And if we are in control of those narratives and we're reflecting culture, then it's important for us to pay attention to when culture shifts or moves or, you know, the temperature goes up. I don't think any of us in here are unaware that something has happened in our culture. You know, we are reacting a little more viscerally, maybe with more anger. We have less empathy. And so as we talk to our consumers and our audiences, we have to be not just aware of that, but be prepared for that. You know, gone are the days where you could have a marketing campaign that was 18 months ahead of time and know that everything was going to be fine when you launched it. Anybody out here still have 18 months? Yeah, do you guys have that one time anymore? Okay, because if you do, you should probably leave and go change that right now. So for me, it's a really important conversation to have because it's not just about being in crisis, but how do you prepare? You know, think about it like the human body. You know, it's like some of us eat better than maybe we would have when we were 20 something. Yeah. Lord knows I needed to. Or you exercise or, you know, you figure out a way for self care or something. Because you know that as you're aging and progressing that you need to take care of your body in a better way. Well, why don't we look at our brands that way? You know, our brands are essentially like humans, you know, and that lots of things happen. And so why would we wait until something actually detrimental happens? Why are we not being prepared and getting ready for that inevitable thing? Yeah, you said you use inevitable. So you're saying in the sense of almost like an athlete and you need to be in training for what's going to happen. Absolutely. Yeah, because don't think that it's not going to happen to you. You know, this is this is the challenge that we're also in that even in this environment where we are constantly sometimes attacked, right, by what is happening in our greater culture, that we think, oh, well, let's just point the finger. Yeah, you know, it's like they did a bad thing. Shame on them. Yeah. You know, but the truth of the matter is that we are all vulnerable. Every brand is vulnerable. Now we know that there is some real importance to having representation, not just in our boardrooms, but also in our ranks, you know, at every level, every level. Well, there's this theory that, you know, when you see a brand in crisis, it's because, you know, if you look at the team, it's a it's I don't know if it's an urban myth, but it's a theory that people like to work with that. It's a crisis of talent versus crisis of creativity, that they didn't have the right people in the room to raise their hand and say, you know, I don't think you should put that out there because this is what's going to happen. Or the person was too junior or less empowered to speak up to have you seen that? Oh, yes, but it's a combination of all those things. You know, it's like not having the right talent who are empowered to contribute, because like you could, yeah, of course, you could have a body in the room, but if they're not empowered to actually say something, yeah, then how's that going to help you? Yeah. It's also yeah, being unprepared for that moment, you know, pointing and saying, Oh, well, we we are perfect. We have we have an utopia in our in our rooms. Yeah. Therefore, we would never, it would never, it could never. And that's simply untrue. So we've had we have to make sure that, yes, we are representing, right, with the right types of people in the room across diverse experiences, that we have the preparation, knowing that something is coming again. You know, it's like, I hate to be done done done done done done something is coming. You know, so be prepared. But also it actually, and this is where it's like, you know, for us in the room in this very wonderfully intimate conversation, it helps on the other side to because when that thing inevitably happens to have already had not just plans in place, but action in place, actually does give you some allowances, you know, with the audience, right? Because knowing that Oh, well, this brand or this company has been doing the right thing time and time and time and time and time again. But this one little slip up, but they're going to get right back on it is a much easier conversation and much easier repair than sitting waiting for something to happen thinking you're perfect. I mean, it's you brought up a point about empathy. And so therefore, let's look at it from a brand standpoint, do they or should they have empathy or concern when it comes to or even a responsibility to the consumers, you look at the recent Nike work. I mean, that just didn't appear that was probably two years in the making. They prepared for all the inevitable inevitabilities and the backlash and, you know, the things that were going to come from the left and right about what they're doing. So it looks like Nike had a responsibility to consumers, but also to the people they put in the ads to make sure, you know, they obviously show them in the best light. In general, do you think they they should have that responsibility to their consumers? Yes, I think brands absolutely should have the responsibility, because honestly, again, we've our culture has changed in the way that we talk to our audiences and how involved they are in our businesses. And so we in turn have a responsibility to reflect the time, you know, and to take a position. And I think again, you know, back in the day, this is only like 15 years ago, but way back in the olden days, yeah, we would look at, you know, our brands as sort of cement blocks, you know, you couldn't see past the wall. And now our audiences require that they see through it, that there's transparency. I know it's like a buzzword, but transparency can become very painful, especially when you're in a company where there are differing opinions in that boardroom. You know, I don't take that Nike work, like simply, you know, at face value. I know the kind of battles it must have taken. And probably still, right. And probably, you know, even even with, you know, great numbers that they're seeing now, you know, the the first moments when that stock took a dip. Yeah. Oh, Lord, you imagine. Yeah. Yeah. Someone said, someone said stocks represent sort of at Agheller, actually, that stocks represent sort of old school. So it took a dip, but sales represent the people. So, you know, when you're looking at taking chances as a brand, you know, obviously people reference stock price Yeah. But then look at the sales that went up about 31%. So looking at it in that sort of, you know, structure, where it's the people versus old school, or old street, Wall Street. I thought that was a very interesting way of putting it. The people spoke. Yes. And the other dimension, which is social sentiment, you know, I don't think we can discount that, especially today, where if we're talking about brands, we're talking about advertising, and we're talking about creating a narrative, we have to pay attention to all of those buttons. Now, that's fast. You know, that's that you're going to feel the reaction immediately, right? You're going to hear from specific people right now. Yeah. And so to me, it's like, well, if we're looking for the long-term health of our brands, especially if we're going to face any type of crisis, well, how can you create the trust and conversation with the audiences today, so that again, should that happen, we have a something to fall back on, you know, a conversation that's already trusted. And, you know, fans of Nike, whether they were current purchasers, future purchases or lapsed, showed up, showed up in a big way. I mean, it's been a long time since I've seen advertising retweeted or on, hell, I put on my own Instagram. I haven't worked for the brand. I was like, yeah, Nike, you know what I mean? And it's been a long time since I've seen advertising go viral in that way. So, you know, we have CMOs, we have a lot of marketing folks in the audience. And I think about this all the time, if we want to stick with the sports analogy or Nike, but you know, what kind of dream team would you build, particularly, you know, in a war room when a crisis happens? I mean, I'm going to put myself on the team because I do think that, you know, the CDO needs to be in the room to translate some things. But who else would you put in the room besides just the account team and, you know... Well, listen, I mean, yeah, a whole bunch of badasses who I put in the room. You know what I'm saying? Folks who ain't afraid. But you're right. No, actually, you know, I know it's like sort of a joke, but not really. The CDO absolutely needs to be in the room. You know, and again, not in name only. Correct. Someone who can actually... Oh, I'm never in a room in name only. I want to talk about you because I know you could talk. Oh, sorry. No, I mean, it's really critical. You know, I'll give you a real life example. You know, now I'm the CMO at Endeavour, which part of Endeavour is Endeavour Global Marketing, which is an agency-like group of people who advise and work with different brands. We recently started working with Papa Johns. Shout out to Victoria Russell. I see her. She's the Chief of Diversity and Inclusion. And when we were going to have the conversation about whether or not we would take on that business, for those of you who don't know, there's been a recent crisis at Papa Johns. And if you don't know that, again, please leave the room and just go do some research. You know what I'm saying? You don't need to be sitting here. You need to be doing some work. But anyway, when we went in to talk to the team, of course, the CEO, Steve Ritchie, the new CEO, was going to be in the room, the head of marketing, the head of tech. You know, there were a lot of people that were going to be sitting around the room. But what I asked about was whether or not the Chief of Diversity was going to be in the room, specifically Victoria. Because, to me, you can't even begin this conversation without having someone like her in the room. It doesn't exist. But I think it gets caught up in crisis management without looking at it holistically. Because when it comes down to it, you can attack the creative problem. But there's a systemic company issue as well. So having those individuals in the room are really... Yes. Because that's what I mean by the preparation. You know, this is not just a marketing and advertising issue. This is a cultural issue. And so what is happening with the people on the team? What's happening with the environment in which people are working? You know, without someone in that seat and in HR, there is no way to have a real productive conversation about how to move forward. You know, there's no way for us to create messages for the outside world if the inside is hurting. You know, if it's not right, so that you can't reflect anything positive when there's negativity running throughout the building. Because it's turning out the same issue. Oh, absolutely. It will keep happening. And so to me, it was really a combination of, yes, the internal and the external. And if I can't take a minute, I mean, I think this is really important, especially for all of us in this room right now, who are, again, we're all part of the same community. Even though we may work on different brands and some of them competitive, it's really important that we support each other. You know, not in just some superficial, you know, la, la, la, yes, kumbaya type of way. You know, it's like, Victoria, can you raise your hand, please, girl? Thank you. There she is right there. You know, please don't let her leave here without you saying something positive to her or giving her a piece of advice or something that will enable her to do her job better. Because honestly, again, it's like if we're in this and we're going to make sure that our brands and our business and our industry is healthy, we need to be able to support each other. And so if there's a crisis that happens at any of our brands that we know of that are strong, you know, companies that we want to see succeed, then let's reach out. You know, there are people there. You know, it's not just a brand. And so how do we help our people? So let's get into the fun stuff. Tell me about, we talked a little bit about Nike, but and you can protect the innocent or you can name names. But tell me about the companies that you think are doing it really well. Like have done it well. Or have done a mea culpa well. Like, they've come out of a crisis really well. Because to your point, you know, sometimes you just have to admit that you made a mistake. And then sometimes you see where it's covered up or whatever. But who's done a mea culpa really well? Yeah. Well, most recently, I think Starbucks has done a really great job. You know, their crisis was was, you know, probably our all of our worst nightmare, right? Where it's like, there is someone who does not embody the values of the company, but who is face to face with your customer every day, you know, who took action in a way that was negative, you know, it was embarrassing to the company. I happen to like Howard Schultz a lot. And I know that, you know, at least our interactions have not been reflective of the way that his employee reacted to the black men that were in his in his store. And Ross, who, you know, is raising two black boys. Yeah, you know, that she wouldn't want her sons in one of their stores and have the cops called on them. And so I thought that their reaction was really positive in that, you know, to shut down all of their stores, right? Even for one day costs about $50 million. Yeah. You know, if we think about what that means, you know, it's like, there are a lot of people who, you know, a lot of criticism I saw, which said, oh, well, you know, it's just one day, one day is not enough. And I was like, word? I mean, obviously, most people haven't been through one day diversity and inclusion training. Okay. It takes a lot. It takes a lot. Yeah. And I was like, yes, even one day, one day, I challenge all of us to shut down for one day to pay attention to this. That's how important that was. Yeah. You know, it's like, one day seems like, oh, well, there's 365 days when they do 200 days, you know, and it's like, I'm sorry, what, you know, but when you translate that into money, yeah, you know, it's like, if we were to invest $50 million in anything, in anything, but actually what came out of that too, which is a probably little known is that the two women who filmed that interaction actually went on to start a not-for-profit that actually helps bring people together from different sides. They wanted to bridge, you know, allies with people of color. And it's a remarkable story. And so much goodness has come out of that one act. So, you know, even from a corporate level, great, but for a society level, we now have an organization that's going to fight to bring people together, which is really cool. Incredible. Yeah. So yeah, so I thought that was really good. So that's your number one. Yeah. You know, we have a few more minutes, like seven, just to be exact. You know, for me, I mean, I think about brands who don't embrace this, and they stand in fear. Now, you have, and we've had conversations about how fear immobilizes you, particularly, and we've known each other for a long time. We've been through inaugurations, and I can just go down the list of all the stuff we've been through. And sometimes fear runs through, you know, our lives in our career and how we approach things. And, you know, it's a thing you overcome all the time. What happens when you, I mean, you can kind of tell when a brand stands in fear. What are your sort of, what's your advice for brands who stand in fear who don't stand up for something? Yeah, well, I mean, you said you said it really well that, you know, fear immobilizes us. And at the beginning, we talked about holding your breath. You know, I wanted us to try a little exercise, okay? On the count of three, we're all going to hold our breath, okay? It's not a hard exercise, guys. I know it's early, but, okay? One, two, three. It's starting to hurt. What happens to your body when you're holding your breath, my heart is like beating. Okay, we got to get, okay, we got to do some cardio. I love you, though. I feel like I'm so ashamed about you. I've taken care of you this whole panel and you throw shame. You know what? I care about you, though. Oh, the gloves are off. Okay. Okay. See, what happened was, I really care about you, though. You know what? I care about your health. You know what I'm saying? Because you can hold your breath for 20 seconds. Anyway, my point is, it's a crisis. It's a crisis. It's true. But that's exactly it. It is that, you know, what happens to your body when you cannot breathe, you know, when you hold your breath or your underwater and you are holding it is that every part of your body starts going into survival mode, you know? Blood rushes from your brain. It goes to the core, you know, to keep you alive, right? But the challenge is that that's essentially what's happening to our companies too, is that everyone is holding their breath, waiting for that crisis and waiting for something to happen. And we're not using our brains and our limbs, you know, to help figure out how to make those situations better. You know, to prepare for that. It's like, yeah, if you're going to go scuba diving, you're going to get in a tank. You know, you're not just going to hold your breath and jump into that deep water. So why is it that we're not doing that in our companies? You know, why are we not being prepared for that deep water? Deep water is coming. Jaws is out there. So I mean, in the last few minutes, I think the question really is, is how do we normalize this behavior? Because when we were preparing for this, they were using words like courage and brave. And when things are not normalized, we think it's courageous and it's brave. So when do we get to a point where it's not brave or courageous for a brand to react the way they do in crisis and or even be well prepared for it? How do we normalize it? Well, I think that's, you know, it's interesting because the way that you normalize things is by literally talking about it, doing it, right? It doesn't feel like a strange act once you are doing it. You know, it's like anything else. It's like, if you get practice, you feel much more confident in the action. And that's the way to normalize it. You know, I don't want this conversation to come off sounding like doom and gloom. Although I use the Jaws music and I made reference to deep water and sharks. And you had us hold our breath. I sure did. And I need a cardio workout. Oh my God. But it's really enough lifting conversation. It is very, in the last two minutes, it's really up there. I want you to leave here feeling uplifted, you know, because it is true though that, you know, this, what can be a really negative experience and, you know, situation in our brands and our companies can actually be a way to bring us together. You know, how much more you know, tied are we once we are all fighting towards the same goal of changing our situation. You know, and again, if we do it over and over and over and over and over again before that moment happens, we are much better prepared. And that happens at all levels. Again, it's like, you know, who's in the room? Yeah, you need your CDO in the room. You know, we need, yes, we do need the marketers in the room. We need our press people in the room. We need the CEO in the room. And actually probably, you know, a young junior person. Yes. Those eyes and ears to kind of point out things that they may not be thinking of. Absolutely. I think another piece of it too, and we heard it this weekend, when it comes to the concept of privilege, you know, you have to spend your privilege, don't hoard it. But I think brands have to spend the privilege of being a brand, you know, the consumers are buying your products are essentially creating your mystique and taking care of you if you are human. And so I think brands have to do a better job at spending their privilege and not just on, you know, corporate social responsibility efforts, but really truly think about the consumer and how to change society because it's not being done in government. And so we as corporations have a responsibility and brands have a responsibility to put good in the world. I'm so glad you brought up CSR because that's a really important point too. You know, that that's not just like, you know, the folks sort of on the side who don't get the attention. You know, it's like, oh yeah, y'all nice work, you know, pat them on the head and then keep moving. You know, it's a really important part. By the way, it can be great marketing. Yeah. And great advertising as a platform. Warby Parker, by the way, does a great job of that, you know, and that CSR is a core part of how they communicate out into the world. And so we can all do that. Yeah, and be mindful, you know, because you can, it's so funny, I was joking with Victoria, I'm like, you can sell pizza and still be responsible. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like, those two things don't have to be exclusive. Love pizza. It's true. We all love pizza. Love pizza. According to you, I can't eat it. Should love people. Well, no. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Well, we'll talk about that. We'll talk about that sideline. So any final words about brand activism and just branding? Yeah. Yeah. I just, I, again, I just want to remind all of us that you know, the brands that we represent or that we work for, aren't, they don't live without us. You know, that people make up the brands. And sometimes we forget that. And that we then have the power to change the conversations, to empower new narratives, you know, to create a world in which we want to be in as corny as that sounds. But that we are really empowered to do that. And by the way, we should be looking at ourselves. I'm talking about the individual, you know, that if you are sitting thinking, I've got it perfectly right. I'm super liberal. I'm, you know, I hate everything that is not, you know, I'm not racist. Right. Here's the thing. You know, I make this joke all the time about diversity inclusion. I hope you'll appreciate it. I hope so too. Okay. Because if you, if you don't, this is definitely going to go all sideways. Okay. But you know, it's like, it's the same thing that I, that I see when we talk about, you know, bringing more people in to our companies who are diverse backgrounds and people are like, oh, but, you know, we can't, the pipeline, the pipeline, you know, I'm like, well, when something happens in the world and there's, you know, some racially motivated issue, or like, well, I'm not racist. I got black friends. I'm like, well, then where are your black friends when you have a pipeline issue? Where are those people? You know, go get the black friends, bring them in, you know, hire them. I don't understand where your black friends are at when you've got job openings, you know? So, but the truth is that like, if we all are looking internally and we're looking at ourselves as a way to actually change, because we are not perfect, and so we should figure out the way to try and not just make ourselves better, but then in turn, our companies, our environments better. I think we'll end on that. Thank you, Bose. Thank you. Thank you so much.