 Shadul of the constitution. We have issues. Now we have COVID and you can see the counties really struggled. If you remember the updates by CS Mutai while we began, some counties were even doing only one ICU bed. Even when the money came for COVID, the counties were still complaining that they only got 5% of the shares and majority was retained by the national government. When you look at agriculture, which is the backbone of our society, it's almost semi-devolved. All the agricultural extension officers are maintained in the national government. If you look at even the budget, because for me, I say, Hillary, you will put your money where your mouth is. If you look at the division of revenue stalemate whereby roughly the counties are fighting for roughly 345 billion versus the national government which is having 3 trillion. So you can still see that there is a big stalemate yet to descend. Even the committee that was constituted as a tenth attempt to put an end to the stalemate, they said that we are at our end. So for me, I see when I look at the constitution in terms of devolution, yes, we are happy we have devolution but can more be done. Yes, a lot more can be done. You just mentioned of the stalemate that is ongoing in the Senate about the formula of sharing the revenues and I remember the speaker for Senate Ken Lusaka in one of the local stages he was saying, we are complaining it has been 9 post-portment and adjournment. They could be even 20 because the matter is as serious as it could be and it should be as serious for sharing the revenue. Now speaking of which, we have the health having been devolved to counties and we have had our nurses and our doctors striking every now and then. Was it a miss or it was a hit? For me, health has been an extreme miss and I'll quote my governor, Modominjoke, once he was elected 2017 he actually said that health should go back to the national government but it's not a walk in the park because these are things in the constitution and it would require amendments to deal with the issue. I'll give an example of, you mentioned nurses and doctors, I'll give an example of teachers. If you look at teachers, teachers have the teacher service commission which is an almost national body that caters for the interest of teachers but now doctors and nurses have been left in limbo. They have the KMPDU, they are still in limbo because who exactly are you negotiating with? We know when you see Sosion there is an exact structure and pattern under which he is going to negotiate for the teachers but when you look at nurses and doctors some are under the payroll of the county government which means they are left to negotiate sometimes with the council of governors, sometimes with the national government that is the CS. Sos there is that limbo in the organization of the structures when they look at nurses and doctors however in such a critical time they should not strike and the saddest thing about the strike by nurses and doctors is not just a matter of finances, a matter of being paid apart from that they are complaining about issues of PPEs, they are the ones who are on the frontline, they feel that they are risking their lives so if it was only a matter of maybe resources would say ah maybe we don't have enough money maybe but now you're looking on the wake of which kovid fans have also disappeared, doctors nurses are not being paid well, they are working extra hours, they are the essential services and especially the situation whereby they don't have enough PPEs I mean that is if I was one of them I'd definitely be leading the strike. That's quite true now with the 2010 constitution there were formulations of commissions about around seven of them and I want us to look at those that are close to the person we're speaking of about the land commission which came at a time when the land crisis has been a big problem to Kenyans and the BBI according to the makers it will come to solve the problem at this point do you think 10 years down the line the land commission has been able to settle the disputes that have been there we've been seeing title deeds being issued but of course we also have the displaced persons we have people who have no homes yet we have a commission constituted by the our own constitution to give a background of the constitution of Kenya 2010 the constitution was if you remember was necessitated by a crisis the 207 post-election violence that made it right for us to have a new constitution if you remember 205 we had the wako draft that wako bombast draft that did not see the light of day but when we had the crisis in 207 it created the conditions necessary to have a new constitution there was ethnic divisions which necessitated even devolution to come to place and we know the issues of land are a waiting matter they are a community matter and they get to the heart of the people for me even the issuing of title deeds and even handling of IDPs it's still not a walk in the park until we're able to remove the emotive issues in land I don't think we will benefit I'd like to give an example of the Kenyatta's family trust and land whereby land does not belong to a specific person but is held is held by the family yes you have access this is your land you can build but you cannot sell the land is managed is managed commercially whereby you can plot or even the case of Delmonte whereby you can do your pineapples you can do basically I'm talking about productivity so for me I feel like Kenyans need to move away as much as we have that cultural attachment to land we need to move away from that that deep attachment that will not even make land productive a case example Hila Renda will give you as an individual your family if you have land and everybody is given a piece of land and you build this one builds this one builds it just looks chaotic but if you have one family home and the rest of the land is used to productive use maybe you put Zara or you put the traditional way of kavili yes if you do that for me I feel that land will be more productive but the moment you do title deeds we've even seen cases whereby young people are given title deeds and they disappear they go to Mombasa then they come back and they want still to be given a piece of land yet they were already given their own piece of land so for me understand and then the case of of course IDPs is different and I'm glad most of them have been sorted as far as I know and I hope they will be able to reclaim their life and start on a new foot okay on a light no do you think the bbi will be addressing that particular issue because it is in the report I think it will but when I look at the bbi I see that most of the recommendations will need actually an act of parliament and I had Baba say that reggae will continue in September from what I get a referendum is if you remember the other referendum it was a yes and no question so I don't see matters of land arising and you'll be asked about land specifically it will be a yes or no question that will be framed do we move do you want money to the county government to improve from 15 percent to 45 percent then it's a yes or no question do you want the position of a prime minister or the office of the opposition leader to be funded it will be more of a yes or no question but for matters of land that can be handled by nlc that can be handled by the ministry of lands whereby they can draft bills that are that are in line with the bbi report and they they can go through policy through the executive and they can be through also through the legislature and then also the ministry's department and agencies the mds can now implement some of those reforms but a case of it going straight to the referendum no a case of it being adopted by an act of parliament definitely yes all right let's move to a different commision this one has has had a whole of its own shares in regards to human rights i'm speaking about the national police we've had cases of police brutality we have had cases of how our police are being treated they pay being told they will come back to live with the civilians now and there has been a lot of issues we saw the airport being formed and we have seen our police being disciplined and of course we've also seen them being given new uniforms as in the whole department has changed but to this end the police state in our country do you think it is at a better point moving forward um when i when i look at the commissions in the constitution i i admire the intent of the others of the constitution but for me i feel like uh like something like police police reforms and ipowa and it's like you're trying to change the forest but the monkeys are still the same so for me i feel like without proper adequate police reforms for example if you look at how our policemen are trained in kigancho and other areas it's still the same it's still the same drilling it's still the same do you have 32 set of teeth are you tall do you have a gap can you run how fast can you run we've not moved to our section whereby we are looking also at intelligence and things of that nature so for me i feel like yes we can have all these commissions but for us to cure the ill in police brutality we need to to really reform how they are being trained that's training and development we need better pay we need more educated police force that can be able to impact effectively if you remember when the president was was issuing the kafu and saying you should not be outside by seven or nine kenyans were asking i'm not interested if you remember i'm not interested yes i'm not interested in what i understood i know what i understood but i'm interested in what the police understood if you remember the case of likoni whereby citizens of the country had to wait for the ferry it was at six it's not the kafu is at seven it was at six and there was tear gas lobster and you would even see what's up videos of police prepping because you know they've been kwa kwa kambi they've been kwa kambi and now they are ready to use rungus and this external forces so for me i think there needs to be that change in mind mindset that shift in attitude for us to move forward and i wonder in the curriculum whether being taught to run whether being taught to use guns and i hear the training is about six months my question is are they taught about mental health are they taught about emotional intelligence because by the time i meet you i would say the kafu at nine i should know maybe some women are pregnant maybe does not show i should be able to have emotional intelligence to be able to tell for me i believe if the nis can be trained as well as they have you know me and you know you can't even tell someone who's nis and they're implanted everywhere if the nis can be trained as well as they are trained then also the police can be trained so having commissions is a good thing having the likes of a ipua is a good thing to monitor that but if you don't change the road from inside out the road cannot come from outside in and also for me instead of top down approach whereby you have ipua mandating how police should behave going to the bottom i believe it should be from the bottom up i believe that kind of an approach just shifting the managerial skills and training and development will go a long way because as hilary you're also taught how to conduct yourself in your profession same way i believe that can be impacted in keganjo true now ten years down the line the judiciary uh people and majority of persons have been seeing it the judiciary has been an impediment to the success of winning against corruption uh even the cases of police brutality or anything that concerns uh human rights now do you think the judiciary is trying to balance between power and responsibility uh for me this is such a weighty matter and uh the the lawyers themselves say justice delayed is justice denied and i feel like judiciary has been a thon in the flesh against the fight against corruption because if you look at even sirisia mp lusike how many years from two or seven the main scandal happened in two or seven yes we are glad the judiciary the dpp they are doing their work but ah how many years later we have to wait yet you know justice denied is justice even is like where will i get this money where where will i because you already used the money long time ago you even thought you'd never be caught so for me okay the judiciary is trying but i feel like where we are now there is a lot of cry cry baby zim whereby there is complaint for example uh the judicial service commission the the list of 40 judges that should have been sent by the president we are like okay if this 40 judges are saying what what could change i mean what could change and some of the fundamental question you're asking even in terms of the cj maraga um he had five months five months for him for us to have a new cj i think now it's even less where we are we i think it's two now it's two we are we are fishing for a new cj i mean what is the legacy what is the because when i remember mutunga from the get go there was a lot of fire there was a lot of changes even changes in atta there was a difference what is the legacy you nullify the elections most of the people will remember him yes yes of course he'll be remembered for africa and kenya being one of the first cases for nullifying the election and costing the president to go for a second term but in terms of reforms in the judiciary even when kovid came the judiciary was first one of the first departments or organizations to fully close shop you would see the transition to digital and you remember havi in fact i'm i'm happy that lsk cha nelson havi has been very articulate and seeing these issues and seeing that we are even doing the cases um online using zoom but judges have not been empowered they don't know how to use this zoom they don't know it's a process so for me i feel like the judiciary has a lot more to offer and i hope uh they recommended i've seen some people in twitter saying justice mombi the likes um i hope they'll be able to bring change because at the end leadership also comes from the top so for me i feel that the judiciary has been a thon in the flesh and even to the executive because some of the things for example if you remember the huduma number now people are asking what was the point of them the huduma number civil society went to court prevented huduma number but when you think about it critically hilary especially in the wake of kovid if the government hid your data through huduma number you are asked how many children do you have do you have a spouse can you imagine even in terms of uh um contact tracing it would have been good and when you look at the usa they have they have the social numbers and the social numbers even enables you to get a food stamp so now we we we refuse the huduma number yet right now government now has to rely on the office of the president through the dccs the pcs to be able to get the list of people who needs help and and i understand they've been getting about uh four thousand per month but imagine the case whereby if we had this huduma number things would have been easy all the data would have been aggregated nsf nyhf but now we have a backlog so some of the cases that have been stopped or some of the things that have been prevented from being done they they don't make sense they don't make sense at all i'm glad you brought the issue of huduma number and it's not in the public domain i'm sure the people don't know who stopped it or what happened majority say gaveli to cheza because they do not know what happened because actually i think we need um is it called public education something because people do not follow up why things have happened or what has gone on now before we go to another uh commission i you've mentioned of uh nelson hafi and there's something he said during this uh period where he said that the constitution is a great inconvenience to the political class is an inconvenience to the political class that is the problem is not the chair but the person who occupies the chair we cannot trust the current political class with amendment of the constitution two years to a general election implement to implement the constitution i think he's trying to talk about the bbi that it has brought a naprol uh we're not talking about the bbi here uh there's a lot of issues around it but now things have been happening and actually let's move to the parliament okay uh we saw the page a few months ago was it me over june there was a page trying to cleanse maybe because of the bbi or something the interest of the persons there but do you think do the parliament should be independent from the committees of uh of health or anything else the committees that are there and the whole house should be independent do you think the current house we have under this constitution they have been uh they have been misusing and abusing the powers they have all in the name of pleasing our leader um i think asking the question of whether uh the legislature is independent is quite a tricky one because number one when you look at members of parliament and senate and senators they are brought uh forced by parties and these parties if you remember the likes of um mili sentomanga when they were subjected to a disciplinary committee they were out here doing what they want until a disciplinary committee was formed and they were asked come the likes of aishwa juma aishwa juma who are doing everything they want then they they forget that they were nominated by political parties to be able to run and win elections so in terms of independence it's very tricky because actually political parties have demanded to reconstitute committees anytime they feel like um for me i feel like political parties must be empowered according to the political parties act and they must whip uh members who do not um fall in line especially because political parties are vehicles to ascending to power number one number two these vehicles of ascending to powers have a specific direction where they want to go whether it is a good or a bad direction is another directive but political parties must put their their foot down so for me when i saw the changes in committees and the reshuffling and irumukangata taking uh shape was was was some of the people represented for leadership the best i'd say no but did political parties exercise their rights yes they did end in in in good faith and if this was happened more it was happening more frequently i'd be scared but now it's uh about one two two one and a half years to the elections that's okay but if this was a weekly affair that you mess up i mean some of the if you remember someone like murkomen had gone on offense for so many times he had been given chances and chances and chances and chances to toe the party line and he did not toe the party line so for him to be to be removed from senate majority leader and to be given a chair of a committee i think for me it's perfectly in order but the only disadvantage is now the quality of debates in parliament because if someone is ill suited i mean when i looked at the division of riven new bill even when you look at standing orders sakaja would wake up on standing orders and say madam speaker if it's kamaru's handling and saying kamaru cannot handle you members of parliament cannot just stand or senators cannot just stand on standing orders and they are they are not quoting the standing orders so you would notice there is some sort of lethargy like you are not you you are not in the know about the standing orders of but you would notice um what would they call it amacha you notice this form of amacha and this would now would make people like murkomen shine on twitter and the likes because they understood what was going on i think people like um kangata just woke up in the middle and middle of the night and they're like wow now you've been given this position and yet you do not understand the niti gritis so i think this is also a lesson for any young leader any young person out there who wants to be a member of parliament or senate there's no shortcut read one day you might wake up and you're the senate majority leader and you don't understand the procedures on how things are going so for me uh with parliament i also think though this is one of the weakest parliament we've ever had it's not even me who saved jb muturi himself um the speaker for the national assembly you've seen numerous interview by lusaka and you think it's not my fault that we have a week yeah it's not my fault that we have um a week senate i can only give the direction but at the end of the day and if you remember the previous parliament i believe this is the 12th parliament if you remember the 11th parliament the 10th parliament we had very fiery leaders so now to see the likes of uh sakaja sakaja mutulakilonzo junior emerging as the brain yes being the youthful leaders and emerging as the brains people who've now been able to step out of their political parties and say look this is my political party decision one shilling one one man one vote but is it fair to the person in turkana is it fair to the person in samburu is it fair to the whole uh to the whole republicans uh in general and they're like no so you see these are the new orangos the orangos now are taking the back seat and the new orangos are kina sakaja kina mutulakilonzo junior so you see people who've been able to be objective have been able to to step up um also if you remember the outside of deputy speaker former deputy speaker kezure kandike yes and you would see uh the interviews and you would see that people are really struggling to remove him because they see his fit for the job i'm telling you today will not be going for the 10th discussion on division of revenue bill if lusaka had kandike on his team i'm telling you for a fact and you can see when the type of quality debates he brings to the floor we we have uh majority and minority leaders who can't vote now uh i want to marry the parliament and the commission of uh salaries because they they've been working like uh the the src say something the parliament comes with something especially when they are passing bills uh to amend the pay the increase the pay or the other uh last month they were they were working on their pension for people who worked for like many years ago now do you think the src has been able to weather the storms from the parliament i think that's um almost an impossible task because um i believe uh salaries and remuneration commissions will stick to uh public servants uh because once parliament establish its own uh so we have the parliamentary service commission and then we have the public service commission the salaries and remuneration commission can work with psc but the parliamentary service commission is a very strong institution and i'm glad it was formed because it was it was to separate and to give independence to parliament so salaries and remuneration commission it's very difficult for them to harmonize and when i looked at the debate on pension i was so shocked that that debate can pass so fast yet counties are suffering waiting for the division of revenue bill and it's very unfair especially because the the uh the amounts they're asking for they wanted to be backdated so the taxpayer is really suffering so for me i think that salaries and remuneration commission is weak and um when i when i look at the commissions in fact there was there's also the commission on revenue allocation i mean these commissions are there but first of all remember even the chairs of these commissions are are even um uh swan in swan in by the president's by the president himself so you can imagine they are still under there by the executive because if as a as a job commission has to go to the president yes even i bc as a commission so when you look at all these commissions they still atone in the flesh and you know if you're independent hillary if i'm an independent woman i do not need to go out here keep on claiming you will just see automatically how i walk how i talk it will mean i'm independent so first of all the communication the commission starting with independent down i bc down actually i want us to go to i bc it should be independent and the same case happens to the ecc these are the departments to fight corruption and the other one is for elections but it so happens they are never independent was it a hit or miss for our for our constitution to have such what's the problem i think it's a perfect hit the problem is implementation and interference by the executive and also to some extent interference by the judiciary and that's why you ask the previous question uh is what's the the problem with the judiciary is it doing good is it doing bad for example when you look at i bc you remember the stalemate kina koni kata kina nani the commissioners who resigned and then now we have a situation whereby the commission is according to the constitution improperly improperly constituted what has the judiciary said about it and these are court cases we are just in some sort of stalemate that it's okay which is very dangerous two years to the general election so you wonder the bbi if it goes to your referendum yes so look at it this is so there is the two years to the general election there is a legacy uh which should be should be maintained there is a deputy who is on a full campaign run there is a former prime minister who wants to do rege and the bbi and now you wonder so i'm not confused opposition yes i'm not confused in fact masakaro is famous for saying that the ruling party is in bed with the opposition so you don't even know in parliament who's the opposition who's the ruling party so in that means of confusion and there are people who thrive in confusion i mean and even when you look at the paks if you remember isakasan uh when when he resigned we had to pay him 200 million so it's a loss for us whether our fulache bukati stays or he doesn't stay or everybody has to go home because if their contract says five years it has to end it has to end and if it doesn't you have to give them a golden handshake and pay them beforehand so you you don't even know is it good if he stays and we just pay him for staying around the office or if he goes because you're paying him either way whether he stays they will oversee another election let's move to the cabinet secretaries this constitution came about with changing the format of the ministries we have the technocrats other than the politicians now do you think it has been a good idea so far i would say it has not been a good idea so far because if you look the track record of the css during kibaki's time and now you can't compare the quality you can't compare the project if you look at gdp kenya's gdp growth rate during kibaki's time and during uhuru's time it's i mean it is saddening if you look at debt public debt ratio are still the same thing so for me i believe we need to go back to a system the technocrats have not shown value for their money in fact we are happier if the technocrats remain in their good positions and we need members in fact the problems happening in parliament is because if you look at it this way hila re there is no real connection now between parliament and the executive you know whereby kitambo upper upper a cs used to sit in parliament used to be a member of a constituency and could not miss eight executive sittings so now in a cs a cs for health or when matiani appears before parliamentary committee this is a demi god you can see the way even like the media was restricted when matiani had gone to be questioned this is a demi god but if this day was a member of parliament who you would see every day would not miss eight consecutive sessions unless uh by exclusive permission and by writing to the speaker you are pia so member to parliament to member of parliament kimu kimuya to keraito if you if you remember the drift so for me i believe um cs must be drawn from parliament it was a way better deal there was more better relationship between the parliament parliament and the executive as opposed to now whereby even the president remember the president was also a member of parliament who was frequent who was frequent in um in parliament remember even the leader of official opposition and that's why parliament the even debates then were stronger because reila was in parliament now reila is influencing policy from from afa saying achilo aiko go and say this james orango go and say this but when he was in parliament himself things could move right now you could see a clear yes or no they couldn't they also would not be a stalemate on division of revenue so let's draw css from members of parliament or from senate because they have a more a more wide portfolio they understand the legislature bit and they also then understand the executive bit so they are better managers and if you look at track record of css who are once members of parliament today we still speak of them pita keneth is not governor of nerobi pita keneth is not holding any position we still remember him keraito morongi is now governor miru kunti we still talk to him regarding the constitutional affairs all right before we look at the comments what people are saying on social media i i want to bring an argument i heard about the css being the technocrats vis-a-vis the being the member of parliament in terms of service delivery kitambom tu al kwa akio akiofa services based on my people will not vote me in if i don't do this now do you think the services have gone down because you're trying to decentralize everything i'd say yes the services have gone down because you don't have a mandate a particular mandate to to the people if you had a particular mandate to the people if you knew that i'd have to go back to the people of meru and ask them to vote me in then i would be more deliberate in my efforts and in uh in bringing money that's that's one angolo at of it and which i support then the other the devils advocate they say now that i have no specific portfolio and want to develop uh kenya if you remember the google balloons they began in baringo which means i would develop kenya if i'm a cs i will not care where i come from and i'm gonna offer if i come from coast or north eastern i don't care i'm gonna issue service delivery because anyway after all i'm not going to ask for votes so i'm gonna be genuine in offering of services but then if you look at that there is a lot of scatter scatter in terms of um what exactly have you done but you know if you are cs and you would come back and it's even true i believe for the people of like baringo who see someone like sorry elgeo marakwa to see someone murkomen as former sml and they would ask there was a sunny sml lakini umetulete anini you you get that kind of thinking so css are not subject to that but then it's the same thing because they are not accountable to anyone but the president that allows them to do what they want which disadvantages the cities and so for me watake paliament all right let's hear what people are saying and i would like you to weigh into some of these comments we have victor marcia he's saying a lot of changes are needed to be done to the constitution example is health services education water and roads should be taken to national government because most county government are so weak and most corrupt who will speak about corruption being devolved and then we have i use continues to say alego say i fully present as usual from alego say i thank you so much see the same person okay something else uh no need to revisit in state government should be focused on economy growth until the country becomes stable this is philly johns minor uh let's get someone else uh vincent sigo sigo el keeps chir chir from nandi county uh olesos keben okay thank you so much for watching whereu paul thank you for watching i isak that's total waste of resources at the bottom line choose wisely okay the constitution or the leaders okay good morning watching live and direct out and then again in kisama kuni county thank you so much for watching august in kefia jeras keeping a teach from chirota kio emc morning my opinion is that current constitution has no problem no need to mutilation so you in kama nasima your referendum kai the bbi kai uh all right i think i've made i i i read those now this one who says a lot of changes needs to be done to the constitution do you think corruption was among services or the components that were devolved we have seen uh the three w's that is one but i was the first one i had waigoro and white itu and now we have sanco uh which uh we're waiting on the case to what would go on we don't know we'll see the results now do you think devolution was as well devolved corruption i mean yes that's like yeah i believe that corruption was devolved because even as much as we are fighting even for more money to the counties i mean there is a lot more than begs the eye if you look at the auditor general report you will be flabbergasted there are limits to which uh for example like the limits to which uh county governor should pay should spend but they are wasting money uh there is if you look at in terms of appointments in terms of appointments is a lot of nepotism people people who are being um given jobs when they are not qualified so you can imagine the impact on quality service delivery if you look at the intervals between mcs in fact that's when you see the true colors if you remember the waigoro case when the it was the mcs versus the governor they they were in fact people were happy with the kov when covid came and they are like now nobody is traveling because you remember the amounts 10 million traveling to a b c d you're asking so you traveled what did you bring to the people in benchmarking and benchmarking especially mcs loved to go to rwanda every now and then benchmarking and when you come to nerobi nerobi still as dirty as ever yet you wonder what they are going to do in rwanda especially kigali the cleanest city in africa so uh for me i believe that corruption was devolved and it will explain the reason why people with track record massive big track record the national government want to go back to county government what do they want to do to manage a bigger portfolio of money to to have um more of their people at the pockets and of course to to even when you look at the awarding of tenders i mean it is it is crazy you remember sakaja introduced the agpo agpo bill whereby 30 of the tender should go to young young people youth people with disability that is still when you when you look at the audit when you look at what the auditor general has to say young people have not benefited from the tender so yeah it's devolved corruption it's still the same uh the same werewolves in sheep's clothing yes all right now as we wind up how big or small is the gap between the promises in the constitution and the deliverables i believe that's a question on implementation uh the constitution and say is perfect but kwa ground vituni different in specific regard to that uh we are not we are for some reason we are unable to implement the constitution if you look at the chapter on integrity some of these governors would not even should be here if you look at where you go sorry to say if you look at the track record of nyas look at the track record you look at where it is we had grievous uh scandalous past sonko himself if you remember he gave us the story where he was at shimola tewa as a prisoner so you wonder how does ecc because for you to to be a civil servant and for you to be in a position of political leadership you must get clearance from the five institutions ecc certificate of good conduct and you remember and you remember like for the certificate of good conduct quote in quote kibisho had refused to give sonko the certificate of good conduct sonko went and stayed in jubilee house for two weeks crying with goons if you remember properly and he was given the certificate of good conduct yet you wonder what good conduct so it's like these uh institutions have just put them as a rubber stump we have even the issue of kia re you must have kia re clearance yet we know the members of palia methoof run businesses and they are in massive um tax grievance they are not paying taxes at all at all so uh i believe the chapter of integrity is quite perfect but when it comes to implementations things are very different and who is supposed to interpret the constitution for us it's the judiciary so when i say that the i i feel like the judiciary has performed below pa the judiciary has performed below pa we we have under the judiciary we have other uh helping uh bodies like the dci and the dpp as far as corruption is of concern do you think they have done enough because the cases go to court and then you hear there is no enough evidence what are you telling us for me i believe the dpp is doing quite a good job i just uh i know for you to be convicted it has to be beyond a reasonable doubt and the dpp has of course to bring uh cases of significant magnitude but i still feel like i still the courts have failed us but in terms of dpp we all know everybody can tell that uh things are different and we are in the right track but the courts uh the judiciary has to up its socks all right final comment as you tell us whether we need to to amend the constitution or not uh my final comment would be when it comes to the referendum it will be is or no question it will not be bulky to it will not be as reading the whole book on the constitution it will be it will come to a question of yes and no and the the final statement will be so obvious as i told you for example do you want the increment of uh allocations to county government from 15 percent to perhaps 40 percent or should the leader of official opposition be funded by the taxpayer or do we need a position of prime minister deputy prime minister are things of that nature and most probably your answer will be yes because if you look at the specific clause the positions of prime minister and deputy prime minister we know kenyans kunam tuetum tuetum tuetum when we create an inclusive government i believe that it's better when everybody is on board for example my ideal creation will be someone from luya for example mudavadi or wetangula let the luya nation decide one of them maybe someone from central someone from northeastern are more of inclusive government that one i would support but if it comes to things like regional governments that have seen being being pro uh by being supported by current governors yes uh i i don't think i that one i can support because the taxpayer is really suffering you can imagine the pinch of the taxpayers regional government to sustain people in government who you would find have not even performed as governors in the first place exactly thank you so much Anita for finding time for us and trying to put things into perspective as far as the 2010 constitution is of concern 10 years down the line we've seen your comments we've seen your reactions and i'm hoping moving forward things will change whether the constitution will be amended remains to be seen with baba saying rege must continue and we have other factions who say rege will stop we will wait and see what happens in next thank you so much for coming and back home thank you so much for keeping us company she has been my guest Anita Kirote governance consultant and political analyst i'll be coming up next with an interview or a discussion on mental health and wellness keep it y254 and why in the morning um there ever hilae good morning why 254 imagine jei