 story with John Wahey on tech Hawaii. We thank you to our viewers. Because of you, we are having a part two of the show we had last week, which was dealing with heroes, rescues, rascals, and dust. And here we are again. We got another interesting evening for you. And with that, the moderator for this afternoon is going to be Colin Moore again, the director, I guess, of public policy at the University of Hawaii, which is a kind of interesting title, especially relating to the University of Hawaii. But that's maybe another show. We have Richard Bereka, the dean of political commentators in the state of Hawaii. He's been around long enough to earn the title. And we have with us Chuck Treatman, who is the, I guess he's the communications, policy guru or some sort of event. So here we are for ordinary people talking about the people who made contemporary Hawaii. With that Colin, the show is yours. All right, thank you governor for this chance to have an encore performance for all of us here. We got so many responses, so many people that names that were suggested to us so we didn't have a time to get to on the last show. So we're gonna try to start at the beginning actually. We decided that's the only way we can really keep a handle on this and move forward. And with that, we're gonna start at the very beginning with William Quinn, who was the last territorial governor and the first governor of the state of Hawaii. And Richard, I know you had a story about Bill Quinn and let's just start there. What were your reactions? When did you meet him? Well, actually it was an unhappy day for him because he had just been told he was leaving as the president of Dole Company. He had had his time in the office as the first governor of Hawaii. He was Republican. And when I met him, I had to go over to the Dole Company, Dole Plant Pineapple Company office. And he was very cordial to talk about what he'd done and what had happened. And I really didn't get a chance to talk a lot about him and his history as a governor. He was the first governor, he was a Republican because before that he had been appointed by, I believe it was Eisenhower as the last appointed governor and then the first one who win in an election. He was not able to carry on for a second term. He got into a lot of fights with his lieutenant governor and it just never worked out. And it's something that happens and it's a good lesson to at least... Yeah, he was the first governor that got challenged by his lieutenant governor and it's the first governor in the state of Hawaii, Jimmy K. Aloha. Remember good old Jimmy K. Aloha, he was the mayor of the big island and it was a really interesting character because they divided the party and not only did they divide it, they made it possible that fight between the two made it possible for a bird to get elected. What I remember about Quinn was that he used to campaign. I remember I was in intermediate school and he was campaigning. I think it was what he called secondary or something. And he used to sing Danny Boy. So he was singing Danny Boy before Enoi sang Danny Boy. And he would go out there and he would sing Danny Boy and everybody used to sing in those days which means I'd never have gotten elected myself. Yeah, Danny Boy, Jimmy K. Aloha, whatever. Oh, Quinn, he lost the election, he did something. He wanted to solve the housing problem in Hawaii and he created something called the second mahele. And his idea of solving the housing crisis in Hawaii was to give a homestead out state land except calling him that program, the second mahele, upset Jimmy K. Aloha in constant direction. It's been a loaded word to start talking about this is the great mahele, this is not the great mahele. Best to stay away from that. So that takes us into Burns, I guess, huh? That's right, it takes us into Burns and another Republican since we were just talking about a Republican is Hiram Fong, too. So, but let's start with Burns. Richard, Chuck? You know, he, I knew Burns as the governor. I was at the University of Hawaii going to school and I remember with the Kaleo, we interviewed him on, of what? Of course, housing, the housing, this was the student housing crisis at the time. Bachman Hall had just happened, the big invasion of Bachman Hall and then after that, they were, who was to sit in out in the lawn for a week at Bachman Hall and Burns was going to attempt to solve it. He didn't solve it, but he met with the students. But Burns was a strange politician. I don't think they make them like him anymore. I remember him sitting on the podium at a big speech at the state Capitol and not once ever saying hello to the audience or actually even greeting the audience there. So he was, he could just care about what he was going to talk about and that was it and didn't really have to make any friends to do it. What do you think allowed him to get away with that? You know, he was also called not to his face, but the great white father because he had helped organize the new democratic party. And from time during World War II and had so much, so many people had aloha for him for what he had done regarding Japanese-Americans and World War II and the problems that were ensuing there. So he was able to walk across many different lines that way. You know, you couldn't talk about Burns though without bringing up his nemesis, which was Tom Gill. Exactly, that's just where I was gonna go. Yeah, and Tom Gill was sort of, I guess he was progressive of that day, you know? And it was a strange democratic party because you had all these characters in it. And Gill was, when I was entering politics, Burns was the, I didn't know Burns, so we called him the great stone face, Richard. Those of us at the Gill side of the lecture. But, you know, the trouble, Gill was exact was very intellectual. In fact, he used to give these speeches and he was so cerebral sometimes that most people, you know, couldn't relate to him any more than they could relate to a guy who didn't go around shaking hands. That's a strange time. Well, I recall he was a head of his time. Gill would start out his campaign speech by insulting everyone for being dumb enough to come to his speech and paying good money to do it. So I said, you know, he's probably not gonna do too well. Well, he did as well as he could. There was a cynical humor to Tom Gill's speeches. He was funny. He was very funny actually. I think that the difference between Tom Gill and Governor Burns in terms of how they were successful is that Burns had these remarkable people behind him and around him who were working for him all the time. What Tom Gill had was sort of the intelligentsia which is sporadic in how much they help you. But Burns had coalesced the American Japanese population and anybody who had a civil injustice against them, people like Mike Tokunaga came back from the war and would work from the back of the room every single day that John Burns had to do anything and then after that George Ariyoshi. And it was people like Tokunaga who really carried the ball for these leaders and spread the word and did the kind of grassroots work that liberal intellectuals could never accomplish. By the way, that split between Gill and Burns, the sort of a liberal intellectual and the more hardcore populist. It stayed in the party for decades after Burns and Gill were gone. Let me ask you. It's interesting though that, well, in addition to guys like Mike Tokunaga, you had like Dan Aoki and all these 442 guys. But, and I remember seeing, being in one of the early Democratic Party Convention that we would be there with the Gillites, with the people that are making noise and so forth and having Dan Aoki walk and we take a vote and we are the majority in the room. And then Dan Aoki would walk in and dump a bunch of, you know, votes on paper what do you call those, and they would win. I mean, it was like, whoop, whoop, whoop, you know, where's the democracy in this? But it was a very fun time. Let me ask you about another behind the scenes person who my understanding was very significant in Burns's win in that 1970 race, which is Bob Oshiro. Well, Bob Oshiro was one of the people I picked as a hero. And he was a campaign strategist for Burns and then more for Ariyoshi and then for John Wahey. They called him the Wizard of Wahiwa. He built organizations and grassroots across the state, a network that was iron willed. Oshiro had a way of being almost a self-acclaimed martyr. He would push the campaign and push the campaign but nobody was ever working harder than Bob Oshiro. When George Ariyoshi was behind in his primary election, in walked Bob and he said to the troops, he said, we have to do the big thing. We have to fill up Aloha Stadium. 50,000 people are gonna come with a few days to go before the election. And there was anti-Momi men and there was Sister Correa. And they were going, yeah, we are gonna make 50,000 bentos to do it. And I mean, that was the kind of guy he was, but he was a genius. And well, I could tell you a lot of stories about Bob Oshiro, but there were some amazing legislators during that time as well. And they saw the split and so did the party. They were always this kind of the gill burns factions in the party, but when the chips were down and it was against the Republican, people came together. But, you know, some of the interesting legislators of that time was not people like Nadal Yoshinaga. You know, I mean, Nadal probably was one of the people really responsible for much of the progressive legislation that Hawaii passed in those days. He was probably, even he was ways and means chairman in the state Senate. He's the only ways and means chairman that ever sent the budget back to the university of Hawaii and demanded that they increase the amount that they were asking. I mean, this is the kind of people that existed. And then he also in 1962, ran for Congress ostensibly. He really wasn't, but he ran as an anti-Vietnam War candidate. And so he got all these young people and then the same effort that Richard was describing when they would sit in at the university of Hawaii. He got all the young people to come and see him at the legislature and then started hiring people like David Hageno and a bunch of others that still, you know, rabble rows today. But he brought him in and sort of adopted him and, you know, he's just so we can keep naming Latarious person. His first committee clerk was a guy named Harold Matsumoto, which got to be infamous as his life went on. But anyway, these are, and Richard, do you know Elmut Kavadi? Nadell, he was a power in his own right and was able to do amazing things with legislation. I remember once he had the budget all wrapped up and then he also wanted to put in a tax bill. There was an increase to the excise tax bill and he refused to signed, I do not concur on the budget bill that he had drafted just so they could throw it into chaos and he would have another chance to get at it and get the jackbirds wanted excise tax increase in. It was a chaotic two days and nights at the legislature for that session, it was back in the 70s. But it was all Nadell's chess mastery that put that off. I mean, how do you have the committee chairman signing? I do not concur on the ways and means legislation, but he was able to do that. One other thing that I wanted to say about Nadell that people don't appreciate today was that he was a tremendous creator of other politicians. He sponsored so many people in the legislature or recruited people just almost from the street where he said, why don't you run? Why don't you run for office? If you run, I'll help you, you know? And he would do that. He was in a kind of class that way because they weren't people you would think that were gonna be typical. They weren't 442 members. They weren't those kind of guys or women. But he did have a great interest in building the Democratic Party that way that other parts of the party could learn from. And on the whole side, you had somebody like Elma Cavalio. You remember Elma? I mean, I'm sure Richard and Chuck. Actually, I never covered Cavalio. So that's one point you're gonna have to handle that one. Did you go Elma, Chuck? Yeah, somewhat, somewhat. And he was chair of the Democratic Party for a while too. He was crafty. I didn't really know him personally though, Governor. I tell you what, I tell you one of the things. Well, he was another very strong legislator and leader. But one of the more interesting things that I don't know very many people know is that when the protect Cajolavi O'Hana, we're protesting the bombing of Cajolavi. And in the early beginnings, they were looked upon as sort of a radical group out there somewhere. And all of a sudden, one of the military bombs fell on Elma Cavalio's backyard. And you mentioned that somebody screwed up. And Elma became a member of the protect Cajolavi O'Hana. And all of a sudden, he was gathering politicians and everything was going on. It was a really interesting time. He was mayor of Maui and somehow living in, I think it was K.H. And they made a mistake and dropped the, it didn't explode, it was a dud, but nevertheless, it fell into effect. It was some interesting time. The 70s, the 60s and 70s, real carrot. Let me ask you about another very famous case that happened at this time around Vietnam, which is the Tom Hamilton president of the University of Hawaii and the Oliver Lee tenure case. I know that had ramifications well beyond the university. Did you recall the effect, the long-term effects of that? You know, I think that Oliver Lee and the protests at the University of Hawaii were at that time, front page news for at least six months and then a year and an ongoing and ongoing and then go to court to get arrested, to come out. The university was much more lively in terms of protests and demonstrations then. And Tom Hamilton had to do a really yeoman's job trying to hold all the sides together because at the same time, the university was just starting to take off as a major academic center, not just for Hawaii, not just for the state, but for the whole Pacific basin. It's now it's an important institution across the entire Pacific. And it was just back in the late 60s and 70s that started and the Oliver Lee controversies that were about who exactly was going to control the University of Hawaii were there. And it was because of whether or not Oliver Lee, who was a, I'm not sure it was card carrying, but he was a fervent communist at the time and was preaching something that a certain amount of students cared for, but the faculty had a hard time endorsing that kind of thing. So it was a difficult time, but also very controversial. Which leads us to, if I might, the late 60s and the 70s, what was going on at the University of Hawaii and one of the real great heroes of Hawaii, I think of contemporary high of all time. And that was Richard Kosaki and his wife, Mildred, and the effort to go from just trade vocational schools to community colleges. This was a drive that Richard led later on, Joyce Sonoda, famous people in Hawaii educational circles who opened up the doors and created not just workforce training, but to look at the future and shape what kind of manpower, people power was going to be needed and addressing. And Richard and Mildred were extraordinary leaders and thinkers as the governor, why he knows they were, he was also an expert on Asian Pacific affairs and helped to found the East West center. So during that period of full man, there was this quiet guy, AJA fellow who had actually born and raised in Waikiki around the Waikiki area who took Hawaii to extraordinary places. Today there are something like 30,000 people every day that are benefiting from the community college services. Governor, he was a favorite of yours, was he not? Oh yeah, he sure he was. And yeah, and I think you went pretty clear there. The university actually spun off a lot of things because talking about, see Richard was, Kosaki was sort of the, it gave a lot of intellectual credence to some of the protests and some of the things going on as well as he was working inside. But the protests on the Oliver Lee in the war also led to protests against Kalama Valley and the developments that were happening around the state at that time. It led to the Waihone Waikani, all the land movement started in it and it led to something called our history, our way, which was, I remember the, you should see some of the bank vice presidents today that, well, they're retired now, who are involved with this Kokua Hawaii and ethnic history of politics. And it's funny, it's just amazing, but the University of Hawaii did all of that. And we get through the, on the political side, what's interesting is that also feeds into the political side. Now, when Ariyoshi becomes governor, the opposition to Ariyoshi within the party continues to be the Gilei. Richard Wong, Vicky Wong, Ben Kaetano, Neil Amber Kromby were all on the other side of the political spectrum. And you had been the more stable people on one side, but both political factions were very much attuned to using the intellectual power that they found at the University, whether it was Dick Kosaki, who did a lot, Yukio Naito, who essentially drafted the workers compensation type legislation. Joan Hayes, I think it was Joan Hayes. Joan Hayes was probably the mother of the right, the choice, choice bill to abortion. They're all coming out of this intellectual milieu that as we're building this great university, I mean, the seventies and the eighties really, maybe up through the nineties, but especially the seventies was a very stimulating, intellectually stimulating kind of Hawaii. I mean, we weren't, there was, I think that's the best time when we most saw what they call cloak and gown sort of pulling together. I think what we saw in the seventies was, and it was almost biblical in the fight that went on between the Gil people and the Burns people. You can almost, maybe now it's finally gone on to two different things. It may be a different, maybe a sovereignty issue, maybe as fiercely held as, but the Burns, Burns skill factions were, as you mentioned, Governor, was just something that people kept saying, yes, that's it. Well, that's a person's a Burns person, or that person's a Gil person. I mean, it was a way you classified people totally. But you know, Hawaii had a way of mixing things up, even back then. I mean, one of the Gil people that I knew very well was Alvin Shim. I think that we went and some of the people out there might go, Photoshop will unfortunately just pass the way of his dad. Alvin Shim was a very big labor leader in, but he was a Gil person. And the units were also sort of split between Gil and Burns and so forth. But what was interesting was that Alvin not only had as a law partner for Gil, he also had as a law partner, David McClellan, who was a very strong Burns backer. So, you know, Hawaii was a small place, but that shouldn't, I think it shouldn't lessen the fact that these people had very strong beliefs and they carried their politics off. Burns was probably closer, closer to what we used to call Bishop Street. And Gil may have been a little bit closer to the University of Hawaii. They both split the union. Well, it used to be the big divide in the unions was where the ILWU was going. That was the union of all power at the time in the 70s, probably 60s and 70s. And the ILWU made members of the legislature or would totally ignore them and that would be the end of them. But that was the major, major union at the time. One of the interesting things about the ILWU through many, many years is that they never as a union made political contribution. They never gave politicians money. What they gave politicians, which was even more frightening was manpower and they would work and they would get people elected. Now, what happened in the 70s, that kind of brought things maybe is a little bit farther down the road, was in the 19, early 1970s, Hawaii recognized public workers and started signing contracts. So the HGEA, UPW, in fact, the teachers union, the teachers union had a strike very early. And so here we are in a blue state and a union state. And I remember around 72, 73, there was a teacher strike in Hawaii. And the teachers union was, there was a fight between two different unions, the AFL, CIO union, and then the, I don't remember what it was, but it was two different unions. And all of that created another bunch of union leaders who started to rival the ILWU, which is the HGEA, UPW. And we start getting into people like David Trask, who, you know, countering his cousin, who was a public trust at ILWU. I mean, Richard, you were in the thick of it. So collective bargaining is such a taken for granted piece of political and labor history in Hawaii, but compared to so many states on the mainland, it's unheard of. So when I talked to friends on the mainland, involved in politics, and I talk about the unions in Hawaii, and the right and power of public workers in unions, a lot of people in, you know, states like Texas or Missouri or more conservative places, they don't understand it at all. It doesn't at all equate with their understanding of political power structures. So it's an interesting action that Hawaii has that's different from other places. How did folks at the federal level, do you think affected state level politics? I mean, I'll just ask you about two big figures we've never mentioned. Of course, Danny Noe, Spark Motsanaga, what role did they play in state level politics? Obviously, Danny Noe was a huge figure in all this. Spark Motsanaga was well-respected, but he wasn't politically really all that powerful. But as the Gil and Arioshi combats kind of waned, and there was a little bit of a power vacuum in step Danny Noe and full blast. And people who know how the way Noe worked, he had lots of circles of friends. He had maybe hundreds of circles of friends with the very, very closest people being in the first circle, but everybody thought they were part of the gang. And Noe had specific plans that he thought federally should be applied to each of the counties. And he moved in with the notion that powers are neutral term and it's how you use it that's good or bad and he was gonna use it for good. And he did, he didn't do so well when he got involved with local political affairs. He got his toes burned a few times on that. But he stayed big and got more and more powerful and he, I mean, and his inner circle of friends were included Walter Dodd, in particular, Jeff Watanabe, Walter of course, was the chairman and CEO of First Hawaiian, Jeff Watanabe a powerful lawyer in town. They were the guys who were in the inside circle and they could do a lot in the public and private sectors to make things happen. I don't wanna make it sound too clandestine. I think what Dan and these guys did was mostly good, but it was its own power block and it operated differently than the old Oshiro-Aryoshi Burns thing. It had to do more with the circles it created and getting things done than it did with political races. They're very different. Yeah, I think that what Danny, which I don't think maybe, you know, the historians don't appreciate as much is how proud, you know, Danny and I at various times made people in Hawaii. And as the years went on, he did get stronger, stronger. I mean, you know, he's obviously a lot more powerful in 1990 or in 2000 than he was in 1970. But in 1968, I remember being on the mainland trying to be, you know, see the crowds in Chicago at the Chicago Democratic Convention without actually getting involved. You know, it was exciting for a boy from Hawaii to just be there. And then all of a sudden, Enoi gets on the stage and he gives this fantastic, in my opinion, speech. And what I wanted to do was run all over Chicago telling everybody, that's my Senate. That's my Senate, you know. And then, you know, I mean, the only other time I started acting that crazy was when Hawaii had a basketball team called the Baptist Five. And they were starting to win foot of basketball game against top rated mainland team. And it was exciting. And then to watch Danny Noy very calmly adjudicate, beat the commission on Watergate every day. And he won over an entire generation with three words, what a liar. Yeah, you know, so this is what he did. Alderman Erlichman was up there. And of course, he was giving the Nixon spoof. And Enoi pretended that he thought the mic was dead. He put his hand in the shield and he went, what a liar. And he won over an entire generation of Americans who said, who is, you know, who's that guy? I want to be like that guy. None of this is to, you know, depreciate Sparky. Sparky was a very interesting character himself because what Sparky used to do was anybody from Hawaii that popped up in Washington, he would take him to lunch. And then you get to eat these navy bean soup that they were cooking in the Senate cafeteria. Three lunches a day. I understand that Sparky would hold. Yeah, and Enoi again, what do you do? Lunch would be three different lunches he would go to. It was amazing. My uncle, you know, there's guys from the ordinary people saving up to go to Washington DC on some kind of tour. And then they get invited to go have lunch with Sparky at the Capitol. And, you know, they would vote for him every time. I mean, he may not have been as electric as Enoi, but believe me, he was just as popular with the local poppers. He was also, he was very, he was very good inside. Patsy Ming, who once told me of all those men out there and she was including Enoi and Burns and all of them, of all those, and she had run against Sparky and lost. Of all those men out there, the one that's a real gentleman and good heart is Sparky Matsunaga. And I think that came across with everybody who met him. He was eminently decent and very local. Yeah, and, you know, and turning back home, I don't know, talking about ladies who might be interesting, coming out of the guild faction and surviving was a young lieutenant governor named Jean King and a state and a senator, you know, and Chuck. Yeah, I was gonna say Chuck worked for her. Chuck was plucked from the bay. I won't tell my story too much, except to say that myself and a guy named Lloyd Nakova who had helped Jean run on the big on for lieutenant governor, both got phone calls, but to our surprise, I had no thought of leaving Hilo from Jean King when she got first got elected and said, I need a couple of young bright guys to come down here. And I wondered why she was calling us, especially Lloyd. But anyway, yeah, we both came down to work for Jean and did for four years. And she was a really classic lady who unfortunately just could not stand, you know, working for Governor Yoshi. That's a whole nother thing. And so she ran against him and lost. But she was- I would say that Jean King could give last lessons, college lessons on how to take the lieutenant governorship and make it into a important thing. She would take the, being LG and bring it, bring it to the dinner table almost. I mean, she was so able to forget about the intellectual side of what are you going to do with the codifying laws and stuff like that that the lieutenant governor does. She was able to make it really a living breathing office and people should study that. People who are now going to be lieutenant governor in the future should take a lesson from how Jean King did that. We ran weekly brown bag lunches where anybody could come in, sit down and talk about whatever they wanted for an hour and a half with her. And she was sort of like, I don't know, dick cabbett. She just run the whole thing. She was both spiritually and physically a beautiful person. And well, she succeeded a senator and a judge from the big island called Nelson Doyle, who was another Gil person. You see, there's this kind of thing. Arayoshi's up there as governor and then all these lieutenant governors that Gil, some Gil people. And Nelson, we had a real, and then he just disappeared. He ran for, I think for, he ran against Frank Bosley. There, of course, we talked about Bosley, but you know, Bosley was special. Well, you remember what Nelson Doyle said about Frank, right? That he was a pathological liar. Nelson was a great speaker, by the way. He was a great stump speaker. I saw him on the digon when I lived there. He was a short man, but a sturdy man. And he could get up there and belt one out, like Ethel Merman. He was a terrific speaker and a proud local opinion. You know, all of this sort of takes place all simultaneously with all the people in Hawaii meeting at the Constitutional Convention. And one of the great people at the convention, I think, was Bill Bady. And one of the more interesting things about Bill Bady was that Bill Bady was the emphasis of anything that I thought politically Democrats stand for. He was the plantation manager, he's the guy who could live at the big White House when everybody else lived at the plantation. And he turned out to be one of the great gentlemen of Hawaii, I have to tell you, personally. Personally, I loved the guy. But we started out by completely, by me opposing everything that he was doing. And that's it. How did he win you over? You know, just by being himself. And then he was president of the Con Con and obviously I was a delegate. But he also won me over by spending time letting us know that business may not be all bad. You know, you didn't always have to have a red book in your left hand and nothing in your right. You could kind of balance the whole thing. But he was a real proven hero from World War II and he was a natural gentleman. And he was just connected from the get-go. And he chaired Governor, he chaired John Y. Hayes' first campaign to run for governor. And I'll tell you a story that when the Honolulu Advertiser with about six weeks to go came out with a Jerry Keer poll that had Governor Y. Hayes 36 points behind Ceceptel and the Patsy Minky even further behind. We had to do something that day, the day that poll came out. And Bill Patey decided what we should do is hold a press conference down at the headquarters. And we would have a hibachi there and he would take the poll and roll it into little balls and say, this is what this poll is good for and light it up and start the hibachi. And I didn't know that. Oh yeah, it was on television, it was really cool. And the thing John that was really remarkable is after that, I mean, I think because people thought the advertiser was just against you, if you had 50 people as your headquarters that first night after the poll, there were a hundred the second night and 200 the third night. But somehow Bill and you and others, well, Shiro were able to turn this sense of there's somebody against us into an electrifying experience for everybody. You know, there was a kind of a group of these Kamahaina type, Bill Patey, Fred Trotter, Dudley Pratt, there was a number, there was a cadre of- Henry Walker. Henry Walker in the business world. All of who were Kamahaina, in some sense, you know, the heirs of the overthrow. Why were they genial as they might have been? Why were they then able to affect legislation at the legislature but unable to then go on and talk and not be able to make the Republicans any sort of power in the state of Hawaii? Well, I think for one thing, a lot of them got rid of their Republican card. You know, especially in the 1980s and so forth. Prior to that, as you remember, Republicans for a long time, even after the Democrats got the majority at the legislature, Republicans remained politically viable. They had a good portion of the, you know, they had enough members in the House of the Senate to make a difference. I mean, that's why Dickie Wong was able, for example, to make a coalition. And essentially with five Democrats run the Senate. But after a while, they just started moving over. You know, Hiram Fong, I'm trying to think, Hiram Fong was the first, was one of our first senators. Yeah, there was another, the other senator was the guy named Orin Long, who was appointed governor. But Hiram Fong was able to become a Republican who all the unions endorse. But more importantly, I think the issues that the Republicans had, they were very local. I mean, they were Hawaii first people. So in that sense, there was a kind of a coalition building. But as the years went on, they just sort of, their bodies sort of drifted away from them. You know, one person, if we're gonna talk about Republicans who I think is one of the most underrated heroes in Hawaii, it said, is Pat Sike. You know, she never gets enough credit for this, but she was the person who actually taught George Bush into stopping the bombing of Kaho'olavi. Correct. It was after that had actually happened that the Congress passed the bill to, you know, harmonize it. But it was Pat Sike who did that. And she, you know, and then you had Republicans, well, people who played with the Republican Party, I think. Like Frank Foster, Frank Foster moved party. But nobody actually considered him anything but Frank Foster. Richard, I just want to say one thing about what happened with business and the Republicans. I think if you look at that business oligarchy that sort of existed after the big five, but was still around in the 60s and 70s, I think that oligarchy, the wheels were starting to wobble on that thing just systemically. At the same time, the Democrats were coming into power. Democrats like Burns, Ariyoshi, and why, hey, and most of these business guys, though they weren't really strong Republicans, they leaned ahead Republican inclinations, but they found that they could get some of what they wanted to get done with the local Democratic leaders, you know, sort of individually as opposed to a unit. And they fell into that. I think that they were a little bit co-opted by Democratic leadership, but also the power of business was lost somewhere around 1970, as far as there being one unit, it was becoming an international operation and you just didn't have this, except for Walter Dodds and a few others, you didn't have the real strong leadership. That's right, it seems to me that it was, the power was completely diluted, especially when all the hotels were owned by mainland or international groups. There was no real local business control of Hawaii and the Republicans locally were unable to tap any other source. It's an interesting thing, because the Republicans now what are left to keep saying that, well, you know, it's all because it's the fault of the Democrats. No, it's not, it's the fault of the Republicans. And there are gonna be some people who friends of mine who will suggest that maybe it's the other way around, maybe the Republicans left it to Democrats. But there was a time that really the new guy on the block, whether the heritage was from the big five or from the Democratic party, the new guys on the block came to an accommodation with each other and they sort of started to look at things in a kind of a Hawaii way. So you can see like, Kenny Brown, for example, he played a real strong role there. Kenny Brown, getting these guys sort of get together. I mean, where was Stuart Ho? Stuart Ho, we talked about Walter Dodds. Walter was actually kind of the younger generation coming up, but Stuart Ho, which was his father was one of the first big time Democratic developers in Hawaii, all of a sudden can get together with a Johnny Ballinger, who was up from coming, probably Republican background, but they were more interested in getting things done. So I think that what people may not have realized some day somebody might write a book about it is how close knit the establishment in Hawaii, on some respect, work. When a Tommy Trask who ran the ILW could call his cousin who ran the HGA, who could call a fellow Hawaiian, there are three of them right there called Johnny Ballinger and called Colin Cannon, called Cameron and the banks and labor unions would get together and say, you know what, I think we ought to make sure that when this 1978 Constitutional Convention comes along, we shouldn't have initially a referendum to recall. They didn't call it us. I mean, we were already headed in that direction, but they were starting to do things like that. The closest thing we have like that today might be what you see with the Hawaii Executive Council, where people started getting business, labor and everybody together. But back then it was the boys calling the boys, you know, and seeing one half. Well, initiative and referendum were, by their very definition were uncontrollable and that's why there was something that different groups of good old boys would did not want and why there were such a thing that was not going to fly at the Constitutional Convention. It was just too unpredictable. Yeah, and the convention itself also created a number of leaders that popped out of it, you know, Jeremy Harris, Jeremy Harris, yeah, you know, Carol Fultonaga, Tom O'Connor, you know, all of these people came out of the convention. But Jeremy... Oh, go ahead, gentlemen. No, I was going to say Jeremy was a special case because he was actually from Kauai and then he moved to Honolulu to work for Frank Bossy and he ended up being there here. He couldn't get elected in Kauai, but he got elected in Honolulu. We only have about six minutes left and I want to ask you about two characters that we haven't talked about who have very big personalities and politics in this state and that's Ben Cayetano and Neil Abercrombie. Where did they fit into this, you know, into the factions you were discussing earlier and how did their brands emerge because they both had very distinctive brands, I think? Well, from my point of view, I guess if you wanted to like, charge their political genealogy, they wouldn't have been on the guilt side, but I don't know if any of them actually campaigned for genealogy or did anything here, but they came in under that faction because they were with Dickey Hall and they all got together with Dickey. But Ben, you know, Ben was always Ben. I don't know him as any different. Go ahead, Rich. I was going to say that I think history is going to be very kind to Ben Cayetano because he was able to move so many different things. For instance, when the star bulletin was going to be closed, it was Ben Cayetano who was able to tell the Attorney General to sue and to keep the star bulletin around so that it could be revived and then bought by David Black in Canada, which is a major thing. It was going to be a one newspaper town with the one editorial voice and it's now a one newspaper town with a bifurcated editorial voice between the advertiser and the star bulletin groups in it. I think that Ben Cayetano is going to also did a lot in other areas including Bishop of State. It was his instrumentality that pushed forward the lawsuits in Bishop of State and that he's going to have a good biography, I think. And Neil, Neil has his own story to tell too. You know, Neil was, we often give a lot of credit to Danny Noy as he deserved it and he deserved it, well, he deserved it. But a lot of things that Danny did in Washington would not have been possible without the support that Neil provided. I mean, one of the key things, for example, when Dan Akaka who was a senator for a long time introduced the bill on native Hawaiian federal recognition, he was never able to get it out of the Senate. Neil got it out of the House three times including when there was Republican leadership. So, which is the reason why I begged him not to run for government, you know, don't want to stick around. You're going to, one of these days we're going to get the majority back again and you're going to become a very powerful chairman. And, you know, I tell you one thing Dan, Neil did when he was governor, which I think had lasting impact on Hawaii, was the people that he appointed to the Supreme Court. I think that with people, the court became the most, I don't know where we put it on the spectrum, but became the most progressive after since Richardson, since C.J. Richardson with people like Mike Wilson and other colleagues. So, I think there won't, Christian's going to be kind of- Well, and Neil, Neil, let's not forget that Neil really went totally all out on the line for a same-sex marriage. And it made, there was a special session for it. Many of us got to go to the signing, we were so proud of him. And I mean, for all you want to say about Neil, if he had a belief, he lived it. And you could always sense that around him. Oh, and since you're talking about same-sex marriage, I don't want to miss out and not mention Justice Levinson, who I appointed, who wrote the decision that changed the marriage, you know, and just so we can equalize some of this progressives. I think it's his birthday today, Steve Robinson. Who really is- Steve Robinson, yeah. Well, good. So anyway, we haven't mentioned any duds. We haven't. Well, this is our last chance. We have a minute. So, Governor, I'll turn it over to you. Are there any duds we didn't cover? Steve Cobb. Steve Cobb, in my opinion, you know, because he always associated himself with good government. And at the end, that whole thing blew up, you know. You got to rest in it. I don't. Just to chime in real quickly, it's beyond duds. It's a disaster. But the Kealohas, Catherine and Louie, and the besmirching of the public trust by them, they were both in high places. They were both in high places. They were a wonderful Hawaii Honolulu couple, and they drove it into the ground and made a mess of it all and shame on them. Well, that is our time for today on our encore performance of Heroes, Rastals and Duds. Thank you all for being here on a talk story with John Waihe. I was happy to be the guest host, and I've learned an enormous amount over the last hour. So thanks for sharing all these terrific stories. On Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at thinktecawaii.com. Mahalo.