 Good morning, those in Hawaii afternoon or evening, those elsewhere. Thanks so much for joining us on Think Tech Hawaii for another difficult conversation to make good trouble with David Larson, chair of the ABA section of dispute resolution and professor at Mitchell Hamlin School of Law and Jeff Portnoy, leading constitutional and First Amendment lawyer, adjunct professor at the University of Hawaii Law School and one of our leading legal rights and public commentators, especially on First Amendment rights and other pressing legal issues. Well, folks, think what's on everybody's minds today is we have another tragedy in Valde, Texas. Nineteen children, two adults have died. Jeff, your thoughts, what concerns you about this? Wow, I mean, obviously, the fact that within 10 days, we've had another mass shooting, this time another school, little kids, lives snuffed out, some 18 year old kid able to get a rifle and ammunition, a vest, somehow make his way into the school. I mean, we've just, as Yogi Beres said, in a much more friendly environment, it's deja vu all over again. There's just something wrong with this country. I mean, this doesn't happen anywhere else. Certainly not as frequent. I mean, it happened once in Norway, happened once in, you know, country X and Y. It happens here, almost on a weekly basis, that there's gun violence and mass killings. And yet this country, the elected officials in this country refuse to try to address the problem, blaming it on mental health. Other than the fact that anybody can get a gun, almost anybody in this country, depending upon what state you're in, you can carry a gun. I was telling you folks before we got on the air that I saw this morning, whether it was a tweet or an Instagram from Governor Abbott a few weeks ago, bemoaning the fact that Texas had fallen behind California in gun permits and people carrying guns and urging the residents of Texas to take back first place. You heard Ted Cruz this morning, blaming the Democrats and the media for politicizing this. You see 50 Republican senators refusing to address the issue. And look, I understand the Second Amendment, although it's been perverted, and by the way, wait for the Supreme Court in the next three weeks to make it easier to carry a gun. That's a given. So, you know, you have to work within those confines, but the inability to make it more difficult for people like this killer to get a gun without interfering with the rights of people, you know, to have a gun if they think it's necessary. So it's a long answer, Chuck. And it's just another sad morning in America. No, I appreciate it. You've covered a lot of aspects and a very thoughtful one. David, your thoughts? Oh, yeah, I can talk as a starter. I've just continued to be so discouraged and disappointed by the dishonesty of it all. You know, there are millions of people and many elected leaders who believe that gun ownership is more important than the innocent lives. And that's just to own it because that's what that's the decision that you've made and you keep standing behind that decision and refusing to limit gun ownership. So first off, just own it. Don't come to a situation like this and offer your grief and thoughts and prayers when you're refusing to enact gun control legislation. When you, what we know, when you look at the Brady data about who's accepting NRA donations that you're accepting at least a million dollars a year, if not more. Mitt Romney talked about how terrible this grief was. And then it was pointed out that he has accepted over $13 million from the NRA. So, you know, you can't separate that. If you're taking NRA money, which promotes the distribution and dissemination of guns, this is what's going to happen. And you can't somehow come back and say, I'm very sorry, I feel out of grief. When you're responsible for this, you have to own it. And this hypocrisy and dishonesty about there's kind of no connection between the platform and policies that I'm supporting and what's happening in America is just, it's just dishonest. You know, we focus on what happened yesterday and what happened ten days ago. But the truth of the matter is there isn't a more violent country in the world. I'm talking about Africa and, you know, places where they're revolutionaries and, you know, then the United States. I mean, CNN runs kind of a scoreboard every week of the number of people who were killed in gun violence just in a regular week. In Chicago, it's like six to ten a night on the weekend. I mean, it's an unbelievable situation. So, yeah, I mean, you know, something like yesterday happens and everybody is mourning for, you know, 48 hours. But the truth of the matter is there's something and gun rights legislation is just a part of it. There's just something systemically wrong with America. I mean, I'm sorry, you know, not in Hawaii and, you know, maybe not in, you know, other a few other states. But when you have, you know, what's happening in our major cities and what's happening in places like Texas, which encourage gun ownership, it's sad. I mean, you know, I'm not trying to stop hunters in Montana, although I don't believe in it. But somehow they consider that sport that they go out and shoot something that has no way of defending themselves. That sport, isn't it? Just go out and kill a deer or, you know, a bear, you know, because it makes you, gives you an adrenaline rush. But, you know, I guess the framers had in mind that everybody should have a gun so they could go out and kill their neighbor when they passed the Second Amendment rather than defend themselves against an invasion from a foreign power. And well, you know, the problem is, as Jeff is saying, is that it's just been normalized. Somehow we've gone to the point where we think that this is this is the ordinary way of life, that this is just as normal as going to the grocery store and getting groceries that every day and it happens in the Twin Cities, too. Every day there's somebody shot and often somebody killed. And and now it's just been been rootenized. And we've come to the come to believe that this is this is normal life. And I think, as Jeff was pointing out, it is it isn't normal life and isn't normal life around the world. And you can go into other countries where you do not have this happening. And there's there's really no reason to tolerate it here. Well, we know that countries with far more restrictive gun access and ownership laws have far, far lower rates of gun violence. The number of incidents this year was indicated to be two hundred and twelve. That's more than one a day so far. So are there only two choices, one being more restrictions on gun access and ownership and use and the other being increasing policing and enforcement and restriction on access to facilities, schools, churches, concerts, public places. Well, you know, we're supposed to be in a free society. You know, some of us of our age. Remember when. You could walk into a school without going through a metal detector without having security guards on every floor. You could go to a concert without having to go through a medical detector or a ball game. The country is sick. I mean, let's just face it. And what kind of democracy is it? What kind of freedom of movement do we have? Look at the airports, what you have to do to get on a plane. Now, you know, I know that's allegedly because of foreign terrorism, but we know that it's more than that. It's someone's going to bring a gun on a plane. You know, I remember this is 20 years ago. I went back to my high school for the day. I went back to where I was born and raised, and I just wanted to go back to the high school and I was shocked at the security. And this is in a middle class neighborhood in Long Island, New York at the security. Twenty years ago, I could not get into the high school without passing with showing my identification, passing a security guard and going through a medical detector. I'm not talking about some inner city school in Chicago, and that's 20 years ago. So, you know, David's right. We've come to accept this as the new normal. And it's it's sad. So what are the answers? I'm certainly not smart enough to know what it is. But I think, you know, you got to somehow figure out how to limit the ability of 18 year old distressed individuals to get a long rifle and ammunition. That seems to me not to be that hard to do if you have the will to do it without infringing on the neighbor who wants to keep a gun in their home under locked and key for security. I got it, particularly in the environment. You know, I'm cold bear last evening. They had the prime minister of New Zealand and they had an incident there. And he is asking her, what did you do? And she said, well, you know, we felt as elected leaders. We had to take action and we had to remove guns. And that's what we did. We bought guns back. We destroyed guns. You know, we felt it was incumbent on us us to do that. The idea that we can we can control the situation by greater law enforcement and being more vigilant. That's hopeless. There's there's so much unpredictability in terms of who's going to commit the next offense and where they're going to get the gun. You're never going to be successful at that. So I think you have to go to the other extreme and say that. And it's not extreme. You go to the other solution and say that we've got to start to remove the guns. There's just too many guns. They're too they're too readily available. They're easy to acquire. That's the choice we have to make. But you know, David, you know, we do talk about the law a little bit on the show. And as I just said, just wait a couple of weeks till the Supreme Court comes out overturning the New York ban on carrying concealed weapons, etc. You know, even if there were states or the federal government, which will never happen, that would try to pass some kind of some kind of legislation. It is being the courts in a second and with four hundred federalist society, federal judges, I don't give it much hope as long as the Second Amendment is going to be interpreted in a way that I just don't understand, but I'm not a judge. So that's another impediment that even if there was the legislative will, which there isn't nationally and there is in some states and some cities, I don't give it much hope. You know, that that amendment is. It's been perversely interpreted and it's about ready to be perversely interpreted once more. Well, you know, we've got we've got very active and determined activists in support of the Second Amendment. And I suppose the the call now is to be even more determined and active in terms of opposing that that that aggressive liberal interpretation of that amendment to to make people accountable to call them out to you know, to point out, I'm not sure everybody knows who's getting NRA dollars and how many dollars they're getting and to make that public circulate that information. I agree with Jeff that that is troubling to think about why what can we do that's going to be effective? I don't want to default to doing nothing because I want to try to do something. So I think that that that kind of outing the people that are supporting this legislation either actively or behind the legislative doors with their votes, I think is an important step. So people know who's who's who's permitting this kind of distribution of arms. I think that's something we can do. But again, it goes back to voting for the people that are going to take action to try and prevent this happening. And we know who that is in each campaign. When I was up to getting people out to vote and making sure that the people who will protect their children and protect us get elected. So we know that community interests, so especially public health and safety, have taken major, major hits over the last few years. And there's they have been politicized. Is there anything other than electing people who will make different laws and policies for more protection against gun violence that's going to change the direction here? Yeah, I mean, I'll let David go first. Yeah, that's a hard question. Now, you know, Jeff, Jeff mentioned something in the beginning now in a week later, you know, which is true. He says, you know, and maybe it was before we started recording. He said, you know, this happened in a week later. Well, we'll just go back to normal. And that kind of has been our pattern. You know, there'll be an outpouring of grief and regret for a brief period of time. And then we kind of go back to what it was. So so one thing we I guess can try and do is is to fight that tendency to forget what just happened and go back to the way things were and thinking it's not going to happen again, knowing it's going to happen again to try and keep this on the forefront and be a little more active about that instead of moving on and turning to the next story to not let this go away. And that's, you know, that's different than electing the people that will pass legislation support gun control legislation, for example. But that's more something we can do individually and independently to not let this fall by the wayside and keep it a point of discussion and keep pushing it forward. And we can do that individually. You know, in the last 10 days that we haven't discussed this, but three minority groups were targeted. Blacks in Buffalo, Asians in California and Hispanics now in the school. There's been very little discussion about that. That's even a more worrisome. Aspect to this whole worrisome thing. This is what America is turning into. Yeah, you know, it's kind of interesting because most of the murders are race on race. The statistics will show you that meant much of it gang related. But the last three incidents, that's worrisome. That's worrisome. Now, you know, you can walk into a supermarket that's not in an African American neighborhood. And we've seen that where you can shoot up a bunch of white kids in Connecticut, you know, or a bunch of white kids in Parkland, Florida. But the last three clearly have a racial motive. Two have been established. And I'm sure we'll find out tomorrow or the next day that this one was equally racially motivated. And that that point has to be highlighted that that some of the violence that we're seeing can be traced back to this whole discussion, discussion, advocacy about white supremacy. The idea that whites are losing control of the destiny of the United States. We've got to reclaim it. This whole idea of replacement theory. We've got to fight it, you know, no holes barred. The end justifies the mean, the means. Yeah, I think I think. Trying to deconstruct these things, this whole idea of Christian nationalism, this idea that we were created as a Christian nation and that's slipping away from us. And that is the most critical thing in our lives. And it's more critical than democracy. And if in an effort to preserve that Christian heritage, we have to overturn elections, that's OK, because our Christian heritage is more important than than anything and democratic principles. I think we've got to. I think we've got to hit these ideas head on, discuss them, be transparent about them and rebut them. And and that's on, I guess, all of us to to to to to to be active in making these points and distinctions and point out, as Jeffrey just did, about the what happened in Buffalo that clearly was racially motivated and not pretend that there were that it's a random act. Well, we've seen the election results in the last week. And although some people are encouraged that, you know, some of the really crazy people didn't win. I'm not all that encouraged because some of the crazy people and I mean crazy one, I mean, Marjorie Green, who's completely loony and dangerous. One, the Republican nominee for governor of Pennsylvania is I don't even know what to say, certifiably insane. Yeah, you know, Cawthorne lost in North Carolina, which I guess is good and Kemp won in Georgia, which I guess is good. You know, these are people that say not that they're they don't believe the election was stolen, but they're moving on from it. I guess that's a good thing that that's a good thing. You know, the results are mixed in these primaries on the Republican side. But, you know, there were a tremendous number of Republicans who voted in the Pennsylvania primary. I heard the other day, it was like a couple of hundred thousand more than I've ever voted. And look who they nominated. I mean, look who they nominated for senator in Georgia, Herschel Walker. I mean, you know, I mean, it's it's beyond me. Did anybody look into his background other than he was a football star in college? You know, and so what it says, David and Chuck, and we've talked about this since I've been doing this show. And this is the scariest thing to me. If you want to talk about scary. Forty percent of the country is crazy. I mean, I'm sorry, just crazy. And, you know, it's 40. That's it's it's not that far away from 50. And I think we're going to find on November 2nd. Bad things. If we think things are bad now, wait till the Republicans maybe take both houses of Congress and more state legislatures. It's a, you know, yeah, we have inflated. You look, you could criticize the president and the Democrats in all kinds of ways. And one of our esteemed colleagues who's not on with us right now, they're saying a pox on everybody. But the point is there's some. You know, some opportunity to stop these crazies from taking over, but they're getting close. Yeah, I mean, I can only hope. And I do believe, particularly in Pennsylvania, given the extreme positions that Mastriana was taking and he's saying things like, you know, I have no hesitation in overturning an election. I believe that voting, you know, he says, I'm going to repeal all voter registrations. We're going to start over. Everybody's going to have to re-register. You're going to have to be a white Christian to be eligible. Basically, that's the hope. And I'm going to appoint a secretary of state who believes just like I do, that, you know, that the goal is to return to a Christian nation and we won't hesitate to intervene in elections if we don't feel it's going that way. So, you know, my hope is that. I don't want to be so pessimistic and cynical that that most people won't see that. I think that this is dangerous and bad and that when it comes to the actual election, they won't vote for this person. That's that's that's the short term. That's that's my hope. If that if that isn't true yet, then this nation is in serious trouble because it means we've abandoned democracy and that that, you know, elections aren't going to matter anymore. You know, we're not going to be able to believe that people were able to articulate their voice. We've become another kind of a country. And you're right on the mark. And so what we're seeing is the normalization of violence, the normalization of racism and white supremacy, the normalization of literally unrestricted gun access on a practical level and the combination of those things plus the vocal politicization of and support for them, all combining to encourage you don't need that many. Jeff is exactly right. You don't need that many of the 40 percent to engage in this kind of dangerous, destructive lethal conduct and to get away with it. And now the danger is that 40 percent is energized. So, you know, if if 80 percent of the 40 percent come out and vote and only 60 percent of the 60 percent come out and vote, you know, that that former group is going to be successful. And, you know, so one way or another, we have to make sure that that people are energized to come out and vote in spite of it being a little more difficult than it's been in the past. You know, there's no question that state legislators are trying to suppress the vote. They're making it harder to do the hours of voting, the availability of voting locations. All of that is getting harder. And you kind of can't can't succumb to that. And you have to understand what the cost will be if you do. You know, and I don't have an answer, but I don't need to look to New Zealand, which obviously is a country that many people would like to live in. Just cross the border from where you are, David, compare Canada and the United States as it relates to gun violence, gun ownership. Just just look at Canada. I mean, you know, you don't have to go to a different culture, a different continent. You just have to go over the bridge in Windsor or whatever. You know, and and whatever the bridge is from Minnesota. And why? What is it? No, Canada is not perfect. I mean, there's a lot coming about the way they treated the Aboriginal people, et cetera, et cetera. But I'm just looking at gun violence. Have they had, you know, a couple of incidents? Sure. But why? What's the difference? I don't have an answer. Just a question. Yeah, well, you know, guns have been glorified in our country. You know, the whole history of the the Wild West and gunslingers and I mean, you know, part of our mythology. And, you know, that's that's true. Now, that doesn't mean that that has to be sustained and reinforced, but but I do think our culture our culture has embraced that kind of independent assertion of rights and almost glorified it. We've done it in cinema. We've done it, you know, in our in our storytelling. So, yeah, it's deeply embedded in our culture in ways. I'm not sure it is in in Canada, for instance. But my guess is that lots of people in Calgary have guns. That my guess is that almost everybody in Calgary has guns. I just that's my guess from having been there. But I don't remember the last time somebody shot up a school in Calgary. I mean, there's a systemic problem that is not understood, addressed. I don't know the answer. It's just scary. And we're out of time for today. Thank you both so much. On that note, on that optimistic note. But we need to think about and commit to a different model. For all of us. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for coming to think tech Hawaii. Come back. We'll see you in a couple of weeks. Take good care. Be well, be safe and be thought. Thank you so much for watching think tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at think tech Hawaii.com Mahalo.