 Thanks for being here. And since excitingly, we have a couple new people today, so I'll introduce myself and for those watching on recording, hold on, actually, time out. Does anyone know how to change your name on an iPad? Well, I mean, so whoever just typed that, if you can tell me what you want your name to display as, I can just manually change you. That might be even faster. I know it's like the worst feeling when you want to rename yourself and you can't figure it out. Anyway, if you type that, then I can, okay, sounds good. I can do that. All right, hang on a second. Let me do that, then I'll start over. All right, so, perfect. Excellent, all right. So I'm Mel Hauser, I use she, they pronounce and I'm the executive director here at Albrightons Belong, Vermont. And we're very excited for today's Brain Club, we're very excited for our special guest, Amanda Deekman is going to be, we're going to be just talking about stress, energy and demands, which is, you know, part of really, the big conversation we've been having all year about letting go of the brain wheels that dictate so much of our daily existence that we're not doing anyone any favors. And to try out a new approach. And for those of you who are new to Brain Club, just a little bit of introductions, ground rules, all forms of participation are okay here. As many of you have figured out already, you can have your video on or off and even if it's on, we do not expect anything of you. We certainly do not expect you to like look at the camera or sit still or whatever, move, walk, fidget, snack, have kids climbing all over you, pets, whatever. And all communication is okay here. You can unmute and shout it out. We do not like require you to raise your hand or whatever. Type in the chat box, gesture, use your emoticons, mix and match, whatever works for you. Just a word about language is that you'll hear me and maybe other people using identity first language. For example, I am autistic and that is part of my identity. So that's the way I use that word. And some other people may use other freezeology, but just wanted to name that up front in case that's new for some folks. And another part of why we get into ground rules is that because safety comes first here, in addition to affirming all aspects of identity, we really wanna respect and honor, protect one another's access needs. And we talk a lot about access needs here. Access needs being anything that any of us need to have full and meaningful participation. And so that includes that you're welcome to talk about anything you feel comfortable talking about at Brain Club. We just ask that if it's something that you personally experienced as distressing or traumatizing, we just ask you to give a content warning with the topic so that everyone else can listen with informed consent versus take a break for a minute or two till that topic's over. And we'll always type in the chat box on that topic's over. Okay, before we get into our topic, I just wanna say that today, November 15th is ABB's first birthday. And I'm really excited to spend it with you all. So we launched one year ago. Whoa. And in our first year, we've served 252 medical patients and our community programs, including Brain Club, have served 474 families and provided 32-ish, I don't really, but that might be even a little bit more than that, neuro-DEI trainings. So not bad for a startup nonprofit. And when we talk about neuro-DEI or neuro-cultural competency, I think Luna says it best. That's my Luna. Luna, who by the way, like crashed a professional meeting today. And when I referenced her, she goes, that's me, it was amazing. Anyway, so one of my most recent, thank you, Carolyn, one of my most recent neuro-cultural competency training for a group of healthcare professionals, I said, hey, Luna, what do you want me to tell the people? And without missing a beat, she says, mama, tell them there's no right way to be a person. That's my baby. So, and that's really what this year has been about. And I'm gonna play two-minute excerpt of a quick little video that we put together. We had a little virtual birthday party a few weeks ago with some of our volunteers. So I'm just gonna play two minutes of that. Happy birthday, ABB. Oops, that's not loud enough. I never quite figure out the motor plan of making this work, okay. Happy birthday, ABB. A little over a year ago, an amazing human, Mel, told me about her dream, a place where everyone could come just as they are, a safe haven that would be full of magic. And together, we dreamed up the name, All Brains Belong. When you really think about it, All Brains Belong is a pretty radical idea. The idea that we would no longer make a distinction between healthcare and the rest of life, where we would recognize that health and connection were not only related, but that connection and belonging were fundamentally required for health. Welcome to All Brains Belong, Vermont. It's kind of an interesting place because it is a doctor's office, even though it doesn't really look like a doctor's office. And it's also where people can make friends who like the same stuff that they like. And I had pretty much exhausted mainstream healthcare options or at least the mainstream healthcare options I was willing to try. And I heard this, I was sitting with this friend with Overcoffee, who was the director of the Vermont Disability Council. And she was raving about this new doctor in Montpelier who was out as autistic and starting a medical practice. I knew how to be a doctor, but like I did not know how to start a non-profit, run a non-profit, run a medical practice. But what I did know is that in order to make an impact and improve the lives of neurodivergent people, you have to change the world. So like to do anything for the neurodivergent community, you had to do everything. It's not just healthcare, it's loneliness, it's school, it's work, it's everything. Quote. So I'll post the link in the chat if anybody wants to see the rest. But I think the summary is that, when we set out to think about how do we go about having people with all types of brains feel that we belong, it's really about not having any defaults. And as you heard me say in that video, to do anything, we have to do everything because everything is not working. And it's about unlearning and reimagining what's possible. And to that end, oh, come on, there we go. To that end, our reimagining what's possible campaign launched yesterday, it's already almost 50, it's already 50% done on day two, thanks to a very generous donor. We have an opportunity to raise $50,000. So donations through the end of the year have doubled the impact and with that, we're finally ready for today's topic. So Amanda Deekman is a, oops, I'm letting in more people from the, I'm excited that there's more people coming, is a family coach and author of the soon to be released book, Low Demand Parenting. Amanda is a parent coach for families interested in the low demand life, a life where you drop demands to meet your kids and yourself with radical acceptance. And trust and joy are rediscovered this way, embracing this way of living and going low demand sets up an environment for people, families to thrive. And so what I'm gonna do is Amanda and I prerecorded a conversation. This video is going to be about 20 minutes and we'll keep the chat going so we can be interacting this whole time and then Amanda will be available for your questions and hopefully we'll have, we've got plenty of time for discussion. So here it goes. Could you just, did I click the button with the sharing of sound? Did that make noise? I don't trust myself, I'm gonna do it again. Yeah, okay. I always look to Laura Lewis to tell me if technology's working, it's kind of your role. All right, reshare, share sound. All right, here we go. Could you describe for brain club participants who are not familiar with like the paradigm of low demand, low demand parenting? Like can you describe the framework to introduce everything else we've talked about? Sure, yeah, low demand parenting is an approach instead of a set of things to do. It's a heart system as much as it is a brain system and it's an approach that reduces expectations and drops demands in order to create a trusting and connected relationship with your child. And the amazing thing about it is that this approach will change your life because we all have little children inside of us who weren't parented exactly the way we needed. And by actively creating trust and connection with your real life children, you create space to have a trusting relationship with your inner child, with your adults in your life. And it enables you to really show up in the world in a wholehearted way. So I do say like be careful dipping your toes in this because it's gonna change your life. It's a lifestyle as well, like low demand is about the rhythms of communication that can be with or without words. It's a flow back and forth of listening to your child and especially their behavioral expressions of telling you when something is too hard. Come over here, I can go in there. And then honoring too hard by dropping your hand. Oh, your foot, can you hear it? You're shaking in that moment. And then- Do we both pause? And thinking ahead, well, how can I drop this demand proactively so that instead of expecting that my child will be able to put on their own shoes? I am actively accommodating by putting on the shoes for them without ever mentioning, hey, it's time for you to put on your shoes. So it's a proactive approach as much as it is a responsive one, even though it happens in this flow of communication. And it's also a method of getting your own needs met. So as you drop demands, how can I get my needs met without issuing any demands of the people in my life? Which is actually so empowering because it turns out that we really can meet our own needs without expecting anything of anyone else. And so much of parenting is getting our needs met through our kids. So I need you to come when I call you at the playground because I want this other parent to think I'm a good parent and have an obedient child. Well, I'm a good parent, but I don't have an obedient child. And I can meet my own needs to feel like a good parent and without ever expecting you to come on I call. And that is also a transformative move because it kind of completes the cycle. It allows us to drop demands without it hurting us and without everything falling back on our shoulders. We get to meet our own needs. And that enables us to show up for our children in this trusting connected relationship. So much, so much. You know, it's interesting like I think a year ago having this kind of like, I would imagine that, you know, like many people hearing this for the first time who are in the midst of chaos, like chaos. Like this is me a year ago, like scrolling through social media and like seeing the Instagram reels of all the people being like, so like this is how you feel happily ever after. And here you feel joyful and connected. And you're like joyful and connected in my parents. They see you not understand the chaos that I'm in. Like how do you connect when you're so dysregulated and there's such a gap between your expectations of your life and reality and like zooming out. Like now I can see like that's the problem. That's the problem is like your expectations are the problem. But like when you're in it, you can't have access to your cortex to see that. So like is it just about like starting with, figuring out what your own needs are, like in bite-sized chunks, like how does somebody start when they're so dysregulated as a parent? Yeah, I would always, this is always what I say, start with the popsicle. So your kid wants to eat a popsicle and it's 4.30 and you're making dinner. And you want to say, no, you can't have a popsicle because I'm making dinner. Start by saying yes to the popsicle and giving that little bit of freedom and control to your child and then recognizing, oh, okay, my fear is that then you're not going to eat dinner and my spouse is going to say, why aren't they eating? And it's, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. But just start with one yes, one yes to a popsicle and notice your reaction. Your fear and comes up. But also look at your child's face when you say yes to the popsicle and just see, is there delight there? Is there surprise? Is there connection on their face? And, you know, joy and ease and all of that doesn't have to be macro. It can be in this one moment. I get to give you a gift of a popsicle and you look at me like I'm the single greatest parent on the face of the earth. I smile back like, hell yeah, I am. And then we move forward and that one connection point can grow into so much more. It could be, so I always say start with the popsicle but it could also be the shoes. Start with the shoes, bring them over, put them on those little feet and then walk out the door without ever having battled and just see how you feel with one battle down. One thing that you are not in opposition and see if it can grow from there. Oh, that's amazing. I think that seems like that feels like maybe something that's like maybe doable, you know, in, yeah. So Luna and I have been discussing power lately because she's five and what's modeled for her like in video games or cartoons is like power over people and like power over people feels gross to me as a PDA or like I don't want power over me and I don't want to have power over people because it's gross. So like we watched a lot of my little pony where like the messages are that the people seeking power over, they never prosper. It's the power of friendship, the power connection, the power of co-regulation, which is like, you know, like a reciprocal power. Like it's just anyway. So like we've been talking about like just like the different kinds of power and where do we get power? Because I feel like the like transformation from like, you know, like the traumatic transformation toward narcissism is like, I mean, you can start off as, you know, like, you know, you're like a little kid and everyone has power over you and you like seek out to have power over. Like you don't have power, you seek your power you want to claim your power. And like if you only know about power over you go down that train, right? And like, if you don't have connection, like, ah, anyway like what do you think about this as a concept? Yeah, I think it really aligns too with the role of punishment in relationships and how power over that the main leverage that you get if you have power over somebody is both controlling them and punishing them. And I think that like manipulating their behavior towards your good. And if they aren't aligned with that then they deserve to be hurt for their transgression. And you know, that's our world. Like we like literally live in systems built on that. And for our kids, they're trying to make sense of what happens when something is transgressed. Like what do we do when a line is broken or like within the trust like trust gets broken or connection gets severed and we make mistakes basically. And so in a power over relationship what happens around mistakes and all mistakes are punished and in a power with or a power like in a co-regulation relationship where any power doesn't even the power is in the connection. Right, totally. And because I feel like I'm like, I'm even hearing language from my five-year-old like a thing that comes out a lot when like I make a mistake and then she'll say something. Like, you know, so like she might like, you know and she'll be like, that's what you get for acts. And I'm like, where did you get? I like, I mean, there's like a lot of things she says that I'm like, damn it, that came from me. But like, I don't say that. That one doesn't come out. Maybe I think it or like maybe I don't know. I don't even know like, is it TV? Is it, I have no idea. I have no idea what like my husband or I have no idea like if somebody actually says that. But like, I think that it's just the narrative constructed from observations of the world. That's what you get for acts. As opposed to like, you know, like, we have a pediatric occupational therapist on our board who I like with love for you to meet Hannah Bloom who she talks a lot about the cycle of repair. And like, you know, so like, you know, we're all gonna transgress, we're all gonna make mistakes but like it's the repair that closes that loop. And you know, like most of us grew up in a world where there was no repair, you know, just like, you know punish, punish, punish, you know, flip your lid, which is, you know, normal to flip your lid but like, you know, no repair. Yeah, absolutely. And the repair with yourself is what I see especially for my kids that they're externalizing like, that's what you get for is what they say to themselves too. Like when they make a mistake then they're saying, well, of course your grownup is gonna ignore you or yell at you because that's what you get. You, you messed up. And this sense that they deserve punishment is really hard to repair because our world is reinforcing that. And so it's kind of like, that's the cosmic repair work is repairing that relationship with yourself where you have the capacity to say, I'm a person who makes mistakes and I'm also a person who knows how to make things right. That's our family language is we all make mistakes but we know how to make it right. And that helps us to keep coming back to repair rather than choosing what's kind of an easier path. Like punishment and isolation is, it's the dominant narrative to step outside and that is what's hard. Because like, I think a lot of people who have grown up in a paradigm of like, you do the thing when the people with power over tell you to do the thing. And like when, when like zoomed out to be like, do you see how that's setting people up for like bad dangerous things? And they're like, oh, oh, no, I never thought about that. Now I thought about that. I'm like, ah, yes. That brings up something from the parent's perspective that I think is really important. Something I call the fake drop when you fake drop a demand with your kid. It's when you, you say that you're okay with something like, sure you can eat yogurt on your bed but your energy doesn't match it. Your energy is like, oh, that right there is one of the most important things that we can do is being aware of our own fake drops. And I'll give an example of how I shifted and how important it is for this long-term stuff. So at bedtime, my oldest, he doesn't like to be touched just generally. He doesn't like any kinds of tactile. Sensation, and I would always like every night I wanted to hug and kiss him because in my mind that's the end of our bedtime routine. And we feel close and I get to like smell his hair. And so I have all of these fantasies of getting to do that but every night I would fake drop to the demand. I didn't actually touch him but I didn't feel good about it. And I would walk away like, oh, what kind of kid is gonna grow up? Like will he ever be able to be touched? And what will his partner, future partners do? And all these like big worries. And then I realized that I could flip it around and instead ask what am I teaching him? What gift am I giving him by dropping this demand? And I realized, oh, I'm teaching him that he always gets to choose how he will be touched and that people who love and respect him will respect his boundaries and that he gets to feel safe in an intimate relationship and that his preferences matter just as much as mine. And now when I leave his bed, I'm so confident in the gift I'm giving him by not hugging and kissing him that my energy matches the direct demand drop. And that opens up all of this trust and connection and it empowers him to go out into the world and advocate for himself because he knows what it feels like to be safe in a low-demand relationship. That is huge. In my house, we have this, Luna came up with this. So we know someone who has a cat named Pumpkin and it was described to Luna that Pumpkin does not like to be snuggled. And that when Pumpkin's feeling safe, Pumpkin will initiate snuggle. And so Luna will make the observation of like when her boundaries are respected and she feels safe, she will Pumpkin. And Luna Pumpkin is often, like in the morning, she'll just like, she'll snuggle up and she'll be like, I am Pumpkin. And like it just, I mean, yeah, I mean, it's everything but like it's like letting go, it's like, it's totally the fake drop. It like had to start from like a zooming out strategy you're being manipulative mom. Like that, that was the fake drop until like really like, yeah, I love the idea of reframing everything as the gift that you are giving. Can you tell us like, how do we find you? How do we connect with where you are? And you're like, tell us about like the things that you offer to the community and how people can connect with you. Yeah, fantastic. The main place I hang out online is on Instagram at lowdemandamanda, which is my favorite saying out loud is so great. When I was a little kid, I was Amanda Panda and lowdemandamanda just kind of slides right in there. And so I loved Instagram as a two way street. So it would be a real joy for me if somebody who was here on Brain Club reached out and said, I saw you and I thought this and I had this question, that would be a super joy. So please do that. And while I'm hanging out on Instagram, one of the things that I do is a low demand day in the life. So every week I throw open the curtain and say, this is what we do. And yes, I really do have no screening time boundaries with my kids. They get to use it however much they want to and here's what it looks like. And yes, they really do eat all over the house and here's how I manage that. So you can kind of see low demand in motion there. And then if people are interested in digging in and taking on more in a bite size kind of way, there are also two courses that you can take. One is like a single class and the other are little bitty videos and worksheets and good for people who like to do their own work in their own pace. And you can find links to all of that through my website which is amandadeekman.net. And then the last thing is that if you're watching this way later and maybe it's 2023, you could be looking for my book to come out called Low Demand Parenting and it's gonna be published in the summer of 2023. Thank you. Thank you so much. Is there anything else that you want to say to bring club folks before I stop recording? I just wanna say thank you for showing up and for all the ways that you are caring for your own sensitive brain body and self in the world. It's so important. I really believe that the way that we're caring for ourselves and transforming our relationships with our kids that it truly is world changing. And for all the future generations who are gifted from these little daily gifts you're giving your child, I hope you stand tall in your choices today and feel really brave. Many of the different interactions that we have all bring along, it's really like imagining the world you wish to see and just like doing it. And you're like, you have to unlearn so much but you want it to be so just try it. And it's very much like starting with the popsicle. And yeah, and like so much of like, so we have a lot of conversations about access needs and acknowledging that you get to have needs. You get to have, like access needs, anything that you need to meaningfully and fully show up in your life and acknowledging that we are always going to have conflicting access needs. And this paradigm of low-demand parenting, I think is a paradigm that allows for conflicting access needs. But what I've heard from you that I have not previously considered is the idea that when we think about access needs as a whole, it's like, what do I need from the environment that allows me to show up? And what you're saying is to try, I think what I'm hearing from you is like, maybe we can try on the idea that some of our access needs can be met without the people in the environment necessarily making any changes to afford that. Is that what you're saying? I think so. When you get down into the real details of the situation, yeah, I think the needs may need to be met by other people but we get to be creative about who we entrust with our needs and it doesn't have to be the person in the world says, oh yeah, if you need to process your day, it should be with your partner. Well, no, maybe there's a friend who's your process person at the end of the day because they can hold that need in a way that your partner can't. The need is valid and the bringing it out into the world is crucial and then you're creative about the who. And yeah, our access needs get to conflict, they get to be confusing and they get to be varying from moment to moment and what we show up to them with our creative hats on to see how can we get them met. Whoa. Oh my goodness, I love to hear from the audience around like how this message is landing, whether or not you're a parent, just like the idea of reframing so much of this, of the gifts of dropping the demand. Reading in the chat, Carolyn says, I don't have kids but I like reading about and watching content about gentle parenting. That and now Amanda's approach bring me joy and hope, so heartwarming. Yeah, and like it's so much about like so much of these, what we can think about and Amanda said this, I think at the beginning of the interview around this is so much about your relationship to yourself. And I think that there's, when you've grown up in a paradigm that is not this, it's just so much on learning to do. Hi, Carly, go for it. Okay, so I'm coming from a more experienced place, yet feeling like a more newbie than ever. So I went to the TDI Connections meeting this week and that's where I saw Mel. And I'm actually an experienced special ed teacher. I've worked with gifted students as well, because I've taught in states that have gifted programs and my son turned out to be one of those kids. And I, it wasn't until, so I left education quite a few years ago and came back and in the meantime, there was this PDA thing that has come about. And yeah, so this whole thing with the low demand lifestyle, I had to turn my camera off because I was not comfortable with just pouring out tears. Not because I have to take that very first step to let my kid have the Popsicle, because since he was born, his sugar has been in the bottom cupboard where he could decide whether he wanted it or not. That's just my natural way of parenting influenced by my incredible training in special ed. But I have been making all of these accommodations that have been masking some of his issues. And then as he goes out into, yes, cried too, yeah. And so as he's gone out into the world, all of a sudden this perfectly behaved kid is we're running into some really, really big problems. And for me, it isn't so much as the encouragement to let go of those things as it has been tonight, feeling like I have been doing the right thing. And screw everyone else. And that's just all I have to say. Okay, thank you. Absolutely, it's nothing you did wrong. You did everything right. And intuitively, I think a lot of this is about reconnecting with your intuition because when society keeps being like, do the thing and you're like, what, what, what? And you're like, you courtically override to do the thing as a parent. And then as soon as you're like, oh, now I can do the, I can parent intuitively. Like, ah, I'm so glad you're here. Mia, go for it. Yeah. Yeah, I was saying that in the chat that so often when we have conflicting access needs, so many of us are told we can't have them met because other people's needs matter more than ours. And I know that as a child, a lot of people would say to me, oh, you just need to think about other people's feelings. Or, and I like, think, well, that would be all well and good if it was two-way, but it's like they had more power and it goes back to what was being said about people who have power over us. It's like they can do, like, like what I find is that I might think that something's wrong, but it's like sometimes we're not in a position to stop people transgressing against us and like, and our boundaries. But yeah, but you know, yeah, this has, I guess I'm thinking about it because at the moment, yesterday I received some news regarding what I was saying, what I've said about how, about the hate campaign I got for trying to get my needs met with the airport. But what I found was that yesterday I got the news that my paper is being published in the British Journal for Social Work. And this is an issue that I've been silenced on so much because people have like tried to tell me that, oh, your needs are not that important or other people's needs are greater. Like the need for security is more important than your need for personal, for bodily autonomy. And it feels like now somebody's willing to listen to me. Well, that's, you know, congratulations, Mia, that's huge, right? And you know, the whole journey, right? And so it's a journey for so many people of unlearning those over rehearsal pathways that say you don't get to have needs, you don't get to have autonomy, your needs don't matter. And, you know, all of the downstream consequences of that. So just yes, yes, yes, yes. Any questions for Amanda? And as you, oh, Laura, go for it. I didn't even actually form my thought yet. So it's perfect, go for it. Sorry, I'm cutting you off, Mel. Amanda, that was so helpful to hear, and you can hear in our house right now is rocking, but the blog post that I just was like, told that one got me emotional was, how do we do this and prepare our children for the real world? And I feel like you've addressed that concern of mine in this blog post, but I just love to hear you speak more about that because I feel like it's to Carly's concern, it's like you can control in some ways a home environment and then you send them into the world where you don't have control and how do you prepare them for that environment while still setting them up to have a safe home? Yeah, it's a great, it's a really common question. It's an important question. And I think it points to so much of what makes the low-demand preparation. And I've told Mel, I'm a solo parent of three. You're welcome to join, come on in tonight. Not always, but tonight I am. So first of all, when I'm thinking about the real world, I always want to question, now what is real about that world that I want to affirm in my own family that I want to create and recreate every day in our environment? Are there parts about the real world that I never want to bring into my home? And the answer is yes, hold on. Yes, Lucky. Oh yes, you don't know how to unlock that? I don't know how to get it. I don't know either. Anybody know how to unlock the skate park? Not clicking. I don't know, but I really don't know. How we're off and restart? Oh, how we're off and restart. I don't know, I'm making that up. I actually have no idea. I flipped my leg when my technology doesn't work. Well, he's handling it well. Amazing. And if there are parts of the real world that I actively want to resist in my home, then I am also creating people who know how to resist it when they experience that reality in the world. So a big part of the reality of the world is this very harsh view of cause and effect that if you transgress, then you deserve punishment. And we all know that that system is horribly broken. And yet so many of us recreated in our household like we can toughen up our kids so that when they experience it in the world, they'll be okay. But how many of us got toughened up as kids and we were not okay? We actually needed to go through this whole process of unlearning as adults about how to be open and how to be gentle and how to be soft and how to let down our protections that we learned so young in order to protect ourselves from the ways that we were parented. One more second, I lost my thought. Okay. And then the last thing is that really my motivation in creating little people who know how to resist the real world is also that I want to change the world in my parenting that I actively think that parenting in a revolutionary way is an act of faith and a future that we don't see yet. That we can be radical parents in our tiny little world, remaking everything. And we make people who are gonna get out there and just blow the whole thing up. And that's what I want more than anything. Okay, now I'm gonna mute and help this very patient little person. Amazing. Amazing. Exactly. Yes. Nia. Yeah. I've been in quite a few on-schooling groups over the years, because although I don't have children, I've always felt very strongly that that is the way forward and that would have been what would have helped me. And one thing that I've come across is a lot of people have said, people talk about the real world and what exactly, what, so as the real world having like sitting in a room in a room, in a goes of desks sort of thing. And like, is that really the real world? And I think a lot of it does go to what exactly is the real world. And yeah, it's like the real world is what people with the most power of decided it is. And I think, and of course, when COVID happened, a lot of that was, have to change. Yeah. And so, you know, like, you know, the who defines reality, you know, who defines what is the real world? It's some, you know, it's back to power over. And when we really think about how as human beings, we're all wired for connection and co-regulation. And it's that the real world is about overriding and disrupting that natural drive for co-regulation. Hey, Stacey, go for it. Hi. So I have a question for you. So I have to go off and girl on you, Amanda. Like you are just one of our favorite people in our home and a daily inspiration for like how we can do better by our kid. And also for people that might be like having the midlife, I think I'm autistic crisis as well in their 30s. So thank you for just being you and putting yourself out there and being so vulnerable and allowing other people to benefit from that vulnerability. I just, this conversation reminded me of what I was listening to on my drive home. It's a book called Neuro Tribes and it just talks about how in like the 80s, you know, the mindset was that it's just much easier to change the behavior of the child to then to address the stigmas of society when it came to like neurodivergent behaviors and neurodivergent individuals. And I just think it's super cool. Like brain club and all that you are doing here is like trying, like you're taking on society instead of focusing on changing the child. And that's just a real 180, it's a heavy lift but it's just like, I was in a conference today this morning for like insurance and this woman had just gotten back from a big conference in San Francisco and the best talk she attended in the four day back to back to back was about neuroinclusion in the workplace. And I'm like, this is cool. Like this is what I want to hear more of. So it's just exciting and kind of to echo the sentiments in the chat to be a part of all of this like world changers for sure. Oh Stacy, that's amazing. Right, I mean, so I think the thing is, you know whether, you know, when we really kind of think about the defaults of all the major systems they're clearly not working, right? Like so, you know, not only, you know the healthcare system, you know like not working for like most people and not just neurodivergent people employment, think about all the open positions like employers across so many different industries can't recruit people or keep people in jobs because people don't want them because they're so, it's not the person it's the environment, right? Like, but when you just assume that the real world this is how this is and it's a foregone conclusion that it's all gonna be terrible. Why? But, you know, I was the kid that, you know I remember I often got the message of like get a grip on reality. You don't have a grip on reality. And I think that was my PDA. Of like, it's not like it's not that I don't understand reality it's that I refuse to accept it because it's terrible. Yeah, I agree. I think that there's a piece of suffering in each of us from reality. The reality that we were told is reality and then a part of us when we were little that believed in a different world that believed that our reality mattered too and that our inner selves were inherently right and that there was some sacred worth there that we were told, oh no, that's not reality. You know, your dreams aren't real and we shut it down. And part of this, what I see in Lodeman parents yes, Bubby, just a second. Oh yeah, we're gonna put it on. We're gonna put it on. Is that there's a child likeness that can be a kind of a reconnection with the little part of us that shut it down a long time ago and that we can kind of bring that dream back to life again. Amen to that. Carly. I think just to add another layer to this idea about how difficult our reality is I don't know if you've had a chance, Mel, to read the paper that Trevor Tebs sent out to all of us but like his basic message is that while we are squashing these neurodivergent minds we are giving up an opportunity to save the world. So there's a whole nother level to what you're doing here. That's it. You know, reframing it that way is really, really important, right? So when you are sending, when you send the message of, you know, the deficit-based message about being broken and defective, like guess what? That impacts development. Guess what? That impacts everything. I mean, just it's everything. There's a question in the chat. Amanda, I'm brand new to your work. I love what I'm hearing. I'm curious to hear more about how loaded and parenting and boundaries interact for example, my PDA son considers toothbrushing a major unpleasant demand. This is something I'm not willing to compromise on. Can you talk about this? I would love to. But first of all, my youngest has something he would like to say. He has been raising his hand. I can snap. Yes, do you wanna show off your snapping? Wow. It's amazing. I, you know, it's really cool that you practiced to make that happen. I didn't learn how to snap till I was like 32. And sometimes I can't even snap, but I lose it sometimes. So that's amazing. So low demand and boundaries, I would say this is probably my second most common question outside of like preparing them for the real world. This is great. So before I get to the toothbrushing question, which is a really helpful example to brushing. Boundaries, the first place that I teach boundaries is teaching my kids to know their own boundaries, to know the line between what's hard and what's too hard. And by teaching them to find their own boundaries, I teach them how to honor what a boundary is and what it feels like. What's this? That's a light, cause it's dark in here. I don't like it. Yeah, you can play with it. Um, the trick with teaching the concept, they're gonna have a hard time hearing, one more thing you want to say. Okay. And then they're gonna have a hard time hearing my voice over yours. So why don't you talk? You talk first and then I'll talk second. Okay. Okay, go ahead. No. Can you talk first? Okay. Then you can talk second. When... Oh, brain boundaries. Teachers have to know your boundary. Yes, teaching them the difference, teaching them that line between hard when something is hard, we're brave, we can do hard things. When something is too hard, we drop the bound, we drop the expectation. I knew you were gonna see that. So I dropped your hand. Cause you were gonna see it. Thank you. It was a dramatic illustration of the dropped boundary. So we drop the demands and we find other ways to get our core needs met. And when kids learn that, that I and for my kids, they know that when something is too hard, we always let it go. And so if I say, hey guys, this is too hard for me, then they understand, oh, then we need to let it go because it's too hard. I know they have something they need to say. Okay. We're worried about you, Mia, but we're gonna come back to you. We see your hand. Obviously. No, wait. Okay. Awesome. For tooth brushing, this is the crazy thing about demands is that they are actually cumulative in our system. We were just talking about this, I was talking about this with a client today, that we have a certain number of push-throughs in our system. A certain number of push-throughs. Then we just left. We are, oh, so we left. I guess we left. Oh, that's okay. Remember, if we're both talking at the same time, our voices are gonna get mixed up. So right now it's just me, okay? Oh, car. When we're brushing teeth and saying this is a top priority, is brushing teeth is a top priority, then you wanna drop as many other demands as you can surrounding the brush teeth experience. So every single tiny demand that has to do with brushing teeth and truly in your day so that the cumulative system is ready to hit this top priority with the full strength. And so if you've already given away all of your push-throughs in the day, you're not gonna have anything left to get up to something that's really, really hard right on that line between hard and too hard and say, I can do this. I can get through to the other side. So if you've already used it like this, that's lip gloss. If you've already, let's say you, I have a hard time brushing my teeth. This is me. If I've already used my push-throughs on like having my body touched a lot, doing the dishes and I'm almost done, then I get to brushing teeth time and I'm like, I don't have it in me. I can't do it tonight and I don't do it. It's the same for our kids. If we can honor as many of their boundaries as possible then when it gets to time to brush teeth, they're gonna have more there to honor that this is a top priority and to go as far as they can. And it's just a core principle that kids always do well when they can. So it's really just a way of saying, set them up to do well. Okay, what do you have to say? Okay, we're gonna have a phone tree. He made a homemade stuffy and he's gonna go get it and show you guys in a little bit. I love that thing. Pop in over it now. Oh, right now. Okay. All right. Linda's gonna love it so much. Yeah. Mia. Yeah. I was thinking about how a lot of people would say to me that when I don't just listen to them, when I don't just ignore my own boundaries or whatever that I don't care about other people because what I find is over the years, I found myself not caring about their needs but that's basically being because they don't care about mine. And it's like when I think of how my mental health was affected, I found myself thinking, why should I care about this society that doesn't care about me? And yet, when people sort of meet me halfway, I'm happy to meet them halfway. Like when I went to the airport and they spoke about reasonable adjustments and they were quite clear about what their boundaries were and what they couldn't do. And even though they were quite clear about what their boundaries were, it's like, I felt sort of this thing about going through that scandal was what would be considered too hard for me. And it's like, that was one thing that was like too hard whereas having the conversation was hard but it got easier when, but it's like, it got easier as we talk but it's like, for me, it's like, I was always okay to negotiate but I think what I struggled with was this very, for years, sort of there was this non-negotiable way of thinking that, oh, you're the one who needs to change your attitude. You need to take therapy. And I found myself just, because it felt so many people felt like that, I felt like the whole society thought of that a much of it and I found myself not caring about the fighting when they did that. So I actually feel apart from anything else. These people, they actually do a lot of damage to themselves because they alienate people like myself from them whereas actually, if they've been more willing to engage with me, I'd have been much more willing to engage with them and I'd have been able to do more for them and... Yes, absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. I think that there's so many people for whom that's true, right? Because when your access needs are not met, that is when you don't, I mean, safety comes first for everybody and when your limbic system does not feel safe, you are not going to have bandwidth, spoons, whatever you want to think about it to be like perspective taking and like, you don't have resources available to be like thinking about other people's needs. You're just trying to restore safety. Hey, is there a stuffy? No, that's okay. It's cool. Any other time, if you ever want to, I'd be like, love to see it because I love stuffies. Okay, so I actually need to bow out and do it. I just heard something really important from this one. Oh my gosh. No, I think it would be actually really helpful for all of these other grown-ups to hear the really big truth you just had. He said, I'm starting, can you stop doing this? I'm starting to feel like you don't care about me. And that is such an important wisdom that I just wanted to tell you that this is why I'm leaving is because it's starting to feel like I don't care about him. And that is, I always tell people in all my meetings that my kids are my top priority and that I would rather compromise another adult than compromise their connection to me. So I'm just letting you know why I'm bowing out. And thank you for all the love. It's been such an honor to be with you guys tonight. And I really meant it in the video that it would be a real gift if you would send me a message on Instagram and say hi and let me know that you were here and that you're part of all brains belong. I will tell them, thank you. Yeah, there's a message in the chat to thank my kids for sharing me. Yeah, they're pretty generous, but they notice. And actually, I think that my middle one just called the little guy away for a second to give me a chance to say goodbye to you guys. But something that I talk about with my kids a lot is that I learned all of this by listening really deeply to them, that they were my wake-up call. And I didn't know about the impact of demands on my own life until my kids got really brave and really bold about sharing with me that things were not okay and that the path that we were on was not okay with them. And so I just want to share that that I really do owe so much wisdom and learning in my life to my kids being willing. And they weren't always willing to do it in the nicest way. Like I don't want to paint a really beautiful picture. It was breakdown, it was burnout, it was extreme behavior, but that was bravery too. And sometimes we got to get loud with the people in our life to let them know. Yeah. I know that's what we have to say sometimes. So I do care about you and I'm saying goodbye to these friends so that we can spend time together, okay? Okay. All right, good night, y'all. Thank you so much. Good night. Thank you. And thank you all, everyone for being here. And we build on this conversation about re-imagining. Next week, we're gonna be talking, it's time for our monthly discussion of re-imagining employment. And we're gonna have a, I think it's going to be an asynchronous conversation with Jesse Bridges from United Way Northwest to Vermont. And we'll be continuing re-imagining and creating the world we wish to see. So thank you all so much for being here and I hope you have a great week. Bye.