 All right, I'll set the chair notes. The time is 6.02. I call this meeting of the Amazonian Board of Appeals to order My name is Steve judge as ZBA chair. I want to welcome everyone to this meeting We'll begin with the roll call of the ZBA members Steve judge is present. Mr. Craig Meadows Here, mr. Everold Henry here mr. Philip white here Miss Hilda green ball Here the quorum is present Also attending the public hearing tonight is Rob Wachilla planner for the town Christine Brestrup planning director and mr. Rob Mora building commissioner Pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021 extended by chapter 2 of the acts of 2023 This meeting will be conducted via remote means Members of the public who wish to observe the meeting may do so via zoom or by telephone No in-person attendance of members of the public will be permitted But every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately Access the proceedings in real time via technological means The zoning board of appeals is the quasi digital body that operates under the authority of chapter 40a The general laws of the commonwealth with the purpose of promoting health safety convenience and general welfare of the inhabitants of the town of Amherst In accordance with the provisions of massachusetts general laws chapter 40a An article 10 special permit granting authority of the amherst zoning bylaw this public meeting has been doing Advertised and notice thereof has been posted and mailed to parties at interest All hearings and meetings are open to the public and are recorded by town staff And may be viewed via the town of amherst youtube channel and zba webpage The procedure is as follows the petitioner presents the application to the board during the hearing Afterwards the board will ask questions for clarifications or for additional information After the board has completed its questions the board will seek public input The public speaks with the permission of the chair Remember the public wishes to speak they should so indicate by using the raised hand function on their screen Or by pressing pound nine on their phone The chair with the assistance of the staff will call upon people wishing to speak When you are recognized provide your name and address to the board for the record All questions and comments must be addressed to the board The board will normally hold public hearings with the information about the project and input from the public is gathered Followed by public meetings for each The public meeting portion is when the board deliberates and is generally not an opportunity for public comment If the board feels it has enough information and time it will decide upon the applications tonight Each petition is heard by the board is distinct and evaluated on its own merits and the board is not ruled by precedent tonight's agenda consideration of minutes from October 19th and november 2nd A public hearing on zba fy 2024-03 valley community development corporation request for a comprehensive Excuse me a comprehensive Comprehensive permit under massachusetts general laws chapter 40 b to construct 30 owned and occupied affordable residential units Located in 15 structures parking areas and 58 spaces Common areas and other site improvements on a 9.047 acre site With requested waivers from the zoning bylaws general bylaws subdivision regulations sewer water connections approvals at 2040 ball lane map 5a parcel 56 Rn neighborhood residential and rld low residential low density residential zoning districts And fc farmland conservation overlay zoning districts. This has continued from our hearing on november 2nd Following that there's general public comment period on matters before the board not before the board tonight Other business not anticipated within 48 hours and adjournments Tonight's first order of business is consideration of minutes from two two previous meetings The first is october 19th 2023 And this green bomb. I know you had some changes you'd like to see to the minutes Do you want to describe those or have they have you talked about them? They were just errors a couple words and then the rest Where rod had used initials I spelled out the word because 20 years from now somebody may not know what that is Do you have those in I've reviewed them and I have no problem with them, but Rob, do you have? Yeah, I do and I can screen share in the room. I can screen share them really quickly. Um, I'll just One second. All right. I know I wouldn't have said a hundred percent because I know better Which is fine and um I think this just this was an oversight when the minutes are being done And I think it's good that we spell out some of the the acronyms and this one Usually they call it a and r the state level, but it's also good to have this in parentheses here and then I'll make these changes accordingly Once the board approves the minutes tonight. So that's that's basically all the comments that Hilda submitted Great. Yeah, great. Good catches. Um, any other comments or suggestions for the minutes? If there's no other comments or suggestions, um, and no other discussion I'd entertain a motion that we approve the minute from the minutes of the de sep the october 19th 2023 meeting Do I have such a motion? I'll move to mr. Chair. Is there a second? Second Been moved and seconded any discussion. There's no discussion the vote occurs on approving the minutes I vote I mr. Meadows Hi, mr. Henry. Hi, mr. White. Hi, mr. Greenbaum. Hi Minutes are approved now vote is five zero The second is minutes of the november 2nd 2023 meeting again. Hilda, you had this green bomb. You had a couple of changes I don't remember they were Yeah, I also reviewed those those seem to be pretty much technical Um, but I think if you have me should share them with the board rob So actually, um, I just show them to you so she combined both both them to the same document But I'll I'll share them again just for a few seconds. So down here are the changes from the moment of the second Yeah, yeah, so this is where she you know the a and r and then um adding some words there, but that's pretty much it Um, I'm assuming there's no objection. Is there any other changes? And without objection, we'll approve the mint. Uh, they're like to entertain a motion to approve the minutes as amended by um Mr. Greenbaum, do I have such a motion? So Motion is there a second? Second. All right. It's moved and seconded I'm assuming there's no discussion The vote occurs on the motion Chair votes. I mr. Meadows. Hi Mr. Henry. Hi Ms. Greenbaum. Hi Mr. White. Hi Oh, it's five zero motion carries minutes are approved as amended um Next order of business is considered is um the application before us tonight zba fy 2020 24 dash 0 3 valley community development corporation requests for a special comprehensive permit under massachusetts general laws chapter 40 b Are there any disclosures by members of the board? if not Submissions we've received. I think just one email On november 4th from a merry cross An email in support of the project We've also received a memo from chris breaster planning our planning director detailing comments and questions From the planning board's meeting about this and I think you've all received that or it was in the In the meeting packet I think that's it isn't it rob. There's nothing else that we So, uh, the only other thing is I updated the project application report But an update is just changing a few things on one page But it has been updated accordingly and then um The materials that will be presented tonight have already been submitted to the board in their first meeting packet On the october 19th meeting So I believe the plans that we're going to see um, the board already has and are already available on the top amherst website Got it So tonight, um, our topics are architecture and many mechanical systems um Future meetings on december 7th. We're going to talk about stormwater management in stormwater infrastructure On december 21st as property management income restrictions financials The application selection process and local preference And then on january 4th waivers conditions and findings if we're able to get everything done in time for that But we can talk about schedule further, but at this point in time This is the uh, the schedule for the hearings on the 40 b um So I guess what I'd like to do is Unless there's any questions about process turn it over to the applicant To introduce who's going to speak on your behalf tonight mrs. Elan and we'll Um, please ask everybody who's going to speak identify yourself and give your address for the record Thank you, mr. Chair. Uh, good evening. My name is jessica allen. I am real estate project manager at valley community development Um tonight as we're talking about the building design and the mechanical systems with that building design I'm going to turn the majority of the present presentation over to tom chalmers Who's with austin's design cooperative at a broader world vermont? Um, and he has a presentation that he's going to walk through some information Um, and if I understand correctly, it's the preference of the board for him to go through the presentation And then the board will ask questions at the end of the presentation That's the best way to do it unless there's something that absolutely has to be clarified Someway is confusing, but okay sounds good more detailed questions than that. It's easiest if we wait till the end Sure sounds perfect. So i'm going to turn it over to tom and I believe hopefully he's got the ability to share his screen So that he can share his presentation. Awesome. Thank you. Hi everybody. I'm tom chalmers from austin design Our office is in braddle vermont. I live in dill mass and I will I think I can just share This uh, let's see you should be seeing a Does everybody see that slideshow? Yes. Okay, great um So I have a I put together a uh power point that has some kind of additional material that that is that was in the packet Just to be able to talk about Some specific details on the buildings and mechanical systems and I can send you a copy of this after So I'll start off, um, this is just a site plan which I know you're all familiar with it Here I just wanted to start off to indicate show you basically that there's four different building types there's uh a building type a and a building type b and then there's building type c and d And before we get into some details on those I just thought I would go into a little bit about how how we got there um As as I think architects are trained to make everything more complicated that needs to be so try to Start off being very simple um We had I'll just list a couple of design goals We had which is to be able to have a simple building that supports a variety in size two and three bedroom Supports variety and appearance and massing Has efficient is efficiently built Will be cheap to maintain and operate and will support passive and PV solar We start so we started out with a very simple rectangular box 20 by 30 feet the dimensions that support um Basically the basic uses that are needed on the on the ground floor plus the staircase and bedrooms above The second basic box was um More of a rectangle more of a square shape and that was to to accommodate Accessible features and clearances so with that basic box we can combine them Into we can make one and a half or Uh, we can wait one and a half two bedroom units or with a full story Two full two story three bedroom unit um In plan we came up with trying to maximize As much as possible without getting too long of building the solar frontage so we have a a um down at the bottom here we have a a I would actually let's take the middle one we have we combined a one and a half story with a two story There's a a link area in between and then A third Criteria enters which is the passive solar and the entrance from the street So and there's those don't coincide depending on which side the building is on the street So the the unit type a has a southern entrance Um and unit type b is basically the same as a except we're entering from the north and we're Exploiting the southern exposure for living areas So while the massing is similar the interior design is a little bit different and then looking at the section um in combining these we have a a The two story the link and the one story and we have the one and a half story the link and the one story And that's building d and building c is basically the same as building d Combining all these together we have we came up with 30 homes They're all duplexes. So there's 15 duplexes We're emphasizing passive solar design We have 18 two bedrooms 12 three bedrooms Four building types as I mentioned a through d The six of the homes are two bedroom on one story. So they're fully accessible All the homes are what we call visitable Which means that the doorways are wide enough for wheelchair and there's clearances to move around Each home will have its individual photovoltaic system And then there's this table here which gives square footage, which probably can't see at this level, but Um, basically The two bedroom units I mean the two bedroom homes are, you know, roughly Uh, a thousand's a little over a thousand square feet the three bedroom 1200 square feet and the accessible units are a little bigger at At the building at 2000 at about 1100 square feet for a two bedroom So just to look a little bit more detail in in building type a you can see that we have The one and a half story on the left side here the two story on the right side is a porch in between Building b is this is the the rear view of This is the north. So this is looking at the south view of building a which is also the entrance This is looking at the north view of building b which is the entrance and then the Building c and d are quite different They have a one-story Wing for the accessible unit And the difference in c and d basically is that There's a one and a half story on the left versus a two story And the two story again gives three bedroom the one and a half story gives I'm Sorry, the two story gives three bedroom. Yeah, the one and a half story gives two bedroom I get this is I'm gonna look at two floor plans just to get into a little bit detail This is building a ground floor The left side here is the Two bedroom unit, which is one and a half stories and the right side Is the three bedroom two two full stories. So they have Down at the bottom of the page would be the the main spine street They have a walks that come up. They share a common Entry area covered with a porch They have their own spaces defined by a kind of picket type fence Gives a little bit of possibility for seating on the porch or putting stuff there that's separate from your neighbor They have entry and a mudroom In the mudroom will be one of the Mechanical system elements, which will be the heat pump water heater. Otherwise it's open for storage and Coat hanging etc the red walls here the the separation between the units Behind behind the mudroom Is a storage area that's accessed from the outside Within the house. We have an open plant floor plan with a lot of light on the south side here Um, it's not equal There's obviously this has a longer exposure than this one We extend this window towards the east or west a little bit more to pick up some of this There's a living area. There's an open stair that runs up to the second floor There's an open kitchen dining area and a half bath on the ground floor that Includes a laundry Equipment and then each of the units in addition that has a rear patio door that takes them out to a private patio Um, this drawing is showing some mechanical systems in terms of what's on the exterior There'll be a walk linking these this is going to be a condenser for the mini splits inside And this is space allocated for electrical panel and For solar equipment on the second floor We come up Come up the stairs. There's a hallway that's open to the stair. This is the Two-bedroom unit one and a half story Because the roof comes down on these we have bedrooms are located on the end of the building and then there's full bath and there's closets and There is a space that can be accessed under the eaves on the side And finally they have a storage Area that Borders between the two units This one on the right side is the three-bedroom. So this has a master bedroom and two other bedrooms along the south side again bathroom storage area the master bedrooms are about 130 square feet and the Secondary bedrooms are right around 100 square feet each This is a quick early model sketch of the building Again, we have large windows on the south side. We have awnings to protect The summer sun the high summer sun from getting in and overheating the house too much those will be calibrated for size we'll be doing shading studies etc to figure out exactly how Far they should extend and how close they should be to the glass All these buildings are at grade. There's no foundation The walks will will be all Flush so that you know wheelchair can just roll right into the to the building. There's no steps Even this shows a little bit of lip, but there'll be no steps They've asphalt roofing solar panels on the roof siding Is going to be hardy Siding cement board siding and we have a number of different Materials that we're combining and various things that there's basic the most of it is this is showing clavards And then there's also some board and batten Accents to break things up We also will probably use some hardy shingles at some locations Usually on these projects we're in start. We're using hardy standard colors and not painting the siding Which the which saves considerably in cost This is more of a straight on exterior elevation You can see that in the this is the south side of building a Larger windows On the east or west side depending on how the building is oriented we include we cover and continue some of the larger windows on this smaller unit This is the north side with minimal windows and here you can see the Storage doors in the link above So building c and d i guess i'm showing you building d here The difference between c and d is is only the Whether or not the two-story unit has two bedrooms or three bedrooms This one is a three bedroom. So it's a full two story It's similar to the other units To the to building a It's on the right side here the accessible unit where we see some pretty big differences and they're mostly all have to do with You know providing clearance for a wheelchair users to move around so Come in entrance is the same you can come in there's an open plan here and then A wide hallway that comes down leads to one bedroom that is is sized For a wheelchair. There's a second smaller bedroom. There's a wide hall that comes down to a Washer dryer which also has a turning radius here And then we also include a since it's all one story. We include a utility room over here That there's a mud room which is accessible and then there's a second half bath, which is not And again building c and d are basically the same. There's some variation in where the patio is on site But otherwise it's the same On the second floor obviously over the one story. There's just roof um and the The second floor here is is is similar to the a or the b In this case, you know the storage area happens to be larger and this isn't full This looks larger than it is because it's not full ceiling height It's a roof sloping roof that so the full standing height is probably more in the middle And these are some model views This is the This is the two-story link And here's some elevations and again you can see the majority of the windows are on the south side In this in the c and the d is we we did the building is longer And so we really we have pretty equal southern orientation on the On the windows Here's just a quick diagram looking at uh woo fight. So the that The peak height is at 27 foot nine. That's pretty consistent. I think through all the buildings And presuming the average height would be at 23 foot For the highest two-story um So quick drawing probably difficult to see but these are three building sections wall sections The short one here on the left is the is the one-story piece The other middle one is the one and a half story piece And then the one on the right is the two-story piece And so basically the construction is there's a Reinforced insulated frost wall. There's an insulated slab on grade It's two by six framing Filled with cellulose and then there's one inch of rigid insulation on the exterior The floors are iJoyce second floor is The same framing and then there's roof trusses which you see here For the roof Here are a couple of building sections, which again are a little bit on the small side One thing I wanted to point out is that We're we're experimenting we're trying to Well, one of the things that's difficult in these small houses is where to locate Mechanical equipment and I'll get into that in more detail a minute, but When you have to run ductwork you really want to try to keep it Within the heated envelope and not within the exterior envelope Which would be the insulated section of this roof So we've been working with some trust manufacturers to come up with a trust design which in this case would Um Would give us space In here below the the red and would have a drop ceiling and there we could have our ERB equipment in here and run ductwork around this without and without keeping without getting into the Into the joy space into the cold air of the attic As single family homes these do not need to be or duplexes. They do not need to be sprinkler um We have working with c et to come up with an energy efficiency plan Which looks at both building envelope mechanical systems appliances Our goal is to reach Mass save electric level one. It's going to be all electric building with no fossil fuels And to do that we need to reach hers ratings These hers ratings. I think it's a 45 or less. So with the based on preliminary The preliminary design we're getting these hers ratings for the units And we can I don't know if I need to go through this in detail But it basically repeats some of the stuff I've said before about the framing um, these buildings are very tight and they will of course rely on ERV area or heat exchanger for fresh air So that's the building part and then there's a again mechanical systems a little more detail But this is where we're prescribing what standards we have to meet within the mechanical systems in order to reach the mass save level And that has to do with energy recovery for the ERV Very tight building Ducks that don't leak and that's a another if they're within the The insulated cavity that's not really an issue And then the efficiency of the heat pumps plumbing systems. Um, we have heat pump water heaters and Low flow fixtures and then all lighting fixtures will be led We use energy star appliances wherever that is applicable And then we've talked about during the site that we will have EV charging the lots So just to uh, get back into the heating a little bit. There's it's all electric. No fossil fuels Um, we're going to use air source heat pumps uh with the condenser exterior condenser and then Within the building we are looking at two different systems just depending on the size of this Building and its configuration one would be just typical mini split wall mounted mini split and the other would be a ducted A ducted system that you know distributes the air to the rooms So there's only one unit within the building, but it distributes the air for ventilations They're very buildings are very tight the Rainshoots will not be ducted to the outside and the bathroom will not have separate ducting to the outside It's all done through the ERV which recovers As much energy as possible from the exhaust air So the the ERV will be mounted in a central location in the building on the second floor above the ceiling there will be uh ducts running exhaust ducts from the both bathrooms and the kitchen and then Supply runs running to the living and sleeping rooms And then those are run continuously that's how the That's how this fresh air brought in continuously and then for the laundry Um depending on how things balance out we will either uh Vent the dryers or use non-vented condensing dryers which we have used on a few projects Um In plumbing so As we've talked about during site, you know, it's connected to town sewer. It's water service comes in um your separate water service meter at each house And the fixtures within the building will be tub showers and the ab homes rolling showers in the c&d homes And they all will have low low faucets toilets And heat pump water heaters And then for electric Uh, we've talked about some of this in the site as well, but there'll be uh Transformers on site the Parking lot the parking lots will have Their own have power Located at the mail shed That will serve Lighting for the common lighting and then each unit will have their own utility meter and their own service Um fixtures led they'll be Fire obviously fire and carbon dioxide systems in each unit um And then we'll be making provisions for cable And lastly, there'll be uh Each home will have solar mounted on the roof Their own tied into their own meter So that they their electric bill is is gets the credit for that And lastly, we do have we don't have any major community buildings as we talked about But we do have two mail sheds and cart storage Uh, one of them will include a small insulated water room So that we can have a a outdoor faucet for community garden And I think that's it for my presentation Um, I'm happy to I'll go on to the discussion Great. Ms. Allen, do you want to add anything? No I have a couple of questions and then we'll open it up to members of the board We can do a couple of rounds of questions so the The first question is in terms of the outside appearance When you you you've settled on concrete siding is that correct? Yeah And you're going to have it's going to vary between some vertical slabs and then some horizontal um Slabs but wet bag. Yeah, yeah, it's so the horizontal is is collaborates or shingles And then the vertical will be bored and batten Bored and batten. Yeah, which is all which are all products that are that are made By hardy and have consistent colors Now hardy's the name of the manufacturing. Yeah, hardy. Yeah, it's one of there are other brands But it's basically a cement siding material and you're not painting them I'm going to use the color embedded into the concrete. We're going to use the color So they're they're designed they are they come paint they're pre-painted basically and they're designed to be They they have a pre-painted finish. So they're designed to be used without an application of paint So does that we have that before I live? Does that paint then is it every 10 or 12 years it has to be painted or is this Like I think it's I think it's yeah, I think it's considerably longer It's not the kind of it. It's very unlikely to peel Yeah, and also you have it. Yeah That's going to say that's a good thing because ours is peeling here a little bit and we're about 10 12 years out. So That's a considerable savings to the Yeah, I think it is So it the epv that you talked about on the Going back to clavins versus the bored and batten You're going to use the bored and batten primarily to to lineate between the two different units in the shared space Is that the Yeah, that was one of the that was one we've done a lot of studies about, you know, different ways of combining the siding Um, and what we kind of ended up was we didn't really want to have a we wanted the buildings to read as a building Um, and we didn't want to have a kind of hodgepodge of stuff too much. So we were trying to keep it fairly simple. So Um, but it is interesting to sort of break them down So you are aware that there's kind of the two separations breaks the scale down But that was the idea. Yeah, and it breaks up sort of a monotonous Picture of not adding the same building structure as one thing but breaking up the what the duplex into two pieces Does help as well Um Color choices Have you made those or are those going to be left up to the owners or how's that going to be decided? Uh, we've not made them yet But i'm not sure that it's a discussion, but I I whether or not to be left up to the owners I think probably not it's a decision that needs to be made fairly immediately during construction, but probably before there's an owner on board to To pick the color Yeah, I think part of the thought is that you know have a you know a handful of a small palette of colors that work well together Yeah, um and compliment one another um And that you know those colors would kind of stay and remain and probably be codified in the condo docs Um, so that we don't end up with some sort of hodgepodge 30 years from now Right Exactly and that when they get when they do get painted, you know, it's painted the same color Right. Yeah Uh, and then I'll ask one more question I've got other ones, but I'll pass it on to the next some other board members So what what type of construction are you using? Are these going to be stick builds? Are they? um, you know modular or Yeah, explore different construction techniques. And is there an advantage is there a cost advantage from one to the other? So we we've been talking about this from early on and part of one of the reasons We're trying to keep this kind of rectangular thing was to leave it open the idea of doing a modular construction um My experience I haven't done a full modular project, but my understanding of it is that It's very it's pretty There's some cost benefits when you're working in a very tight site or under a really high Tight difficult labor market like in Cambridge or Boston where you can just bring in something and plop it down on the foundation It's a little bit less competitive. I think out here But it's definitely a possibility that right now they're kind of drawn as stick built buildings and That doesn't mean that they can't be uh, it can't be some modular aspects to them So certainly, you know using trusses that Is as opposed to stick framing most of it. Roof is pretty simple You the contractors you can panelize the the wall construction so that you're actually bringing You know you're framing in a factory bringing stuff off-site And you bring them on a trailer and just stand them up together The other there are other ways to potentially Um Modularized parts of the buildings there We actually have a neighbor right in Brattleboro Who is developing a kitchen and bath system that would be a basically a plug-and-play System that could be brought in but have all its the cabinets all the plumbing all right there You bring it in as a unit set it in the building and just connect it to one point So there's a big range of possibilities In the modular direction So you you're still making a decision but we haven't committed to anything that's right And there's there's got to be significant cost difference I would suspect there's significant cost differences between the different styles Uh, yeah, I think I mean I I don't I guess I would put it this way. I don't think there's a savings in going modular Okay in this kind of situation um Okay, um, I'll I'll turn it over to other members who have questions about the architecture The screenbomb you have your hand up Yes, I do I have a question about hardy board and in terms of making concrete I understand that that's a very intensive impact on the environment I'm sort of asking What what the cost benefits are in terms of the environment versus using Woodclab or it's that's my first question And when they do need to be painted can they be when and what is the lifetime? Does it last 30 years or what yeah of hardy board? So those are all great questions I don't think I can really answer them that well, but um There are There's a lot of fiber material. It's not they're not straight concrete um I don't know if you remember the old they used to have these old asbestos shingles and Yeah, I've taken a lot of them off. Yeah, me too. If you look at them wrong They they crack but um, it's it's this is a lot of fiber in addition to it's not just this You know straight cement Um, I think the biggest liability that it has is it is possible for it to absorb some moisture That's what I was wondering. Yeah, so you do need to design You need to design the system to keep it away from As much as possible It's not a problem with it's a problem if it's sitting in it or if it it splashes too heavily up on it So you want to you want to have uh it above rooftops held up, you know, six to eight inches You don't want to have it run down too close to the ground Having a water table PVC board along the ground and having it keep up is much better Um, so this it's not it it's You know, this things you can do to prevent that's its biggest liability though. I think What's the overhang? Because we've run into problems with other places with Build in the 80s that had no overhead. Yeah, I think I can't remember what we're looking at but a little Over a like a foot and a half or so over a foot. Okay It's something we're still a little bit looking at in terms of the solar shading also so But it's not yeah, we don't have no overhang Also, the buildings are fairly low. So the especially on the one story, you know, it's there's not much siding below extending the other thing you didn't mention which I've run into now because I have a new heating system And that's the electric heat is very dry on these dry cold days. Do you have humidification of the units? uh, well I think actually in these tight buildings humidity is is The main pollutant that we control for so there's a bigger issue with With controlling for high humidity and that you run your your um You run your erv basically To control for humidity i've known Place that that if if they aren't going to have it running all the time they'll run it on a humidity Humidistat so I think having the a tight building really you don't run into issues where it's quite as dry as if You didn't and i'm not sure that also electric heat is any drier than say forced air Where you're you know, actually blowing hot air around the Now I use the humidifier then and I missed it would be electric All right. Oh, I asked my two questions for now Mr. White you had your hand up next I did mr. Chair This question might actually be more for jessica so I Honestly was not very familiar with the non vented condenser type dryers that were mentioned to the presentation So I was doing some kind of researching on them while we were going to the presentation I see from what I've from everything I've seen that one of the Kind of issues with this type of dryer is particularly for our target demographic for this project Which will be first time homeowners The secondary filters for those from what i'm reading and this could all be wrong Need to be cleaned At least once a month. We all know how much dryer led to you know, it was a huge fire hazard when With the units that are going to have these non vented Dryers will there be some sort of documentation either on the dryer or included in the packet on just letting These first time homeowners Know how to properly care for appliances that they may not be familiar way that may not know how to properly service Sure. Um good question. Um, I you know my intent in my mind We haven't nailed down anything but my intent in my thought is that each homeowner will get A manual of some sort and operations and maintenance manual because I think the dryers aren't going to be the only thing These are complicated. These are complicated systems And we're we're going to have a pv system. So there's going to be a lot of maintenance of these Mechanicals that there needs to be some sort of guidebook handbook that's provided to each homeowner So that they have the information at hand Um That being said it is going to be up to the homeowner to make sure that they do change these filters and they do maintain these appliances Um, that is part of being a homeowner You know the great thing about this program is there is a requirement to do first time homebuyer training Certification that you must do in order to be an eligible purchaser So these are some of the things that are covered during a first time homebuyer class is you know, some of these just basic maintenance things that you don't think about when you're a renter because somebody else is taking care of them. So Does that answer Great. Thank you. Tom. Do you have anything you want to add? I will just add so as we try to make our buildings more energy efficient it comes with More technology and it is true that it really you know, it's same with the heat pumps You really need to clean the filters and and I I Uh We're not there's a mass save level two that is very stringent to me. We're not trying to meet that I'm hopeful that we don't need to that we can vent these dryers Without using condenser dryers Um, and still make the hers rating now We have some projects that in order to meet mass level two. We have to have condenser dryers in order to get the hers Um, and so in terms of that I'm pretty I'm hopeful that we don't use them because they are there are some they are a little finicky But regardless of whether they're not there or not. Yes, there are filters that need to be changed regularly and all this other stuff Thank you. Yeah Mr. Meadows you were next and then mr. Henry. Hope you're muted craig. Yes. Yes. I am Um, excuse me. I've got a cold so that I'd probably start coughing right in the middle. Um The I think you've got a great simple design Nice easy mechanical system, etc um I I would suggest that, uh You take a look uh with a good accountant at the differences between um The heat pump system that you're you're talking about using and ground source heat pumps This is primarily on a tax credit basis We we've been doing a lot of analysis on buildings that we're we're working at in new york city and uh comparing VRF systems very refrigerant flow systems and heat pumps and ground source heat pumps and both water and air systems And because of the tax credits that are available now The the ground source heat pumps win out every time by a significant margin Uh, you've got to talk to an accountant who is familiar with chapter 40l of the investment tax credit but um An analysis of the differential and cost May prove that you you can have a system that's even easier to operate than what you're proposing And give you better tax advantages Justice suggestion. Yep. You know valley actually is has a project where they're using ground source heat pumps in north hampton. It's it's 60 unit building so there's You know, there's a large efficiency of scale there. So there's one system that will go in and feed and and they have in the units You know each unit has has they has a heater that runs off the ground source heat pump Um, I think we we did look at this a little bit. We didn't look at the tax credit part But the cost part is quite different when you're Looking at 30 or 15 individual buildings as opposed to coming into one building and distributing it within that um, but Yeah, the other factor is who's going to get the tax credits who's going to get the uh 40 That the the tax deductions as a result of it, but uh on the basis of Even though the first cost is a lot higher They have the long-term costs are much lower Right. So I did talk to the project manager who's doing our um, our nursing home project about this after our last meeting Because I believe you brought this up at the last meeting. He's much more building technology Uh experts that I am um, and one of the comments that he brought up about the ground source and having 15 separate buildings is that I don't believe there's a way to meter That ground source heat at this point It's okay to do it into one building because you have one meter going into one building in order to do a metering system for 15 separate Structures within one project. It's not possible at this point in time They have not come up with that technology yet to to measure The source of the of the ground um energy So that was his comment when I brought this up to him after our last meeting and I just wanted to pass that on Yeah, if it was a rental or something that would make it easier because that the Management company or whatever could pay for the heat and then Any other questions mr. Meadows No Mr. Henry Thank you, mr. Chair. Um, mr. Chalmers. Did I hear correctly that um The units will be almost flush with the ground. Um, there'd be To make it more accessible Uh at the entrance is so I can um The answer is this floor slab will be flush, but the framing will be up above grade So the foundation will will will rise up above the grade before the framing starts If that's I don't know if that's what you're getting at but but at the entrance is there will be you you You'll there'll be a cut out so that you will be able to go directly in okay, and um I believe you mentioned that in the mud rooms Um, I don't know if it was all the units or some of the units That's where the water heater would be or some of the appliances. Yep. Is that correct? Yeah Are these hidden in closets or storage? well Water heating right now is the biggest bugaboo we have for all electric buildings Because in order to meet the mass-save levels, you can't use this a regular water heater regular electric Water heater has to be a condensing water heater and the condensing water heaters need to be within a larger space because they draw on air it's a air source heat pump basically and it It cools the space significantly, but it also needs so it needs some air circulation. So they can't be located in a You know, they can't be shut up in a tiny little closet basically Hey, and They it is true that there's they're a little on the noisy side So we have a door in there and we keep that, you know, kind of away from the bedroom area and away from the From the living area as much as possible But it's not possible to lock them up in a tiny little closet I mean, there could be a curtain or something but it needs to be within a room Was there any consideration to tank this water heater system? Again, the the there's no electric tank list that provides a enough hot water or b Meets any of the it's they're way too expensive to run So it would kick the the energy use would would just pop us out of the Out of the hers rating required Okay, so it has to be a heap. It has to be a heat pump. But there are The technology is changing fast But at the moment there's not a good system for having interior An efficient system for having an interior water tank and an exterior condenser the way you do for You know for the regular mini splits And that would be the great thing and it probably will be coming But right now the only ones that really do that are ones that Actually run the water outside into the condenser which And they're also meant for much larger Water use than individual individual units Are you so that I'll come back to that Going back to the this the accessibility units Is it fully accessible or is it just Entrance like no the accessible units are fully accessible So they will have their kitchens will have open, you know 34 inch high counters Open under they'll have a wall oven and a cooktop instead of the range They will have rolling showers Open lavatory no cabinet, etc. Okay and On the sitins that was being talked about Um Are these sitins able to be power washed without stripping the paint or like traditional hose items if they get dirty over time Uh, depending on how the power wash is done. They're able to be washed I wouldn't want to put it, you know on any kind of piece of wood or other material cement board anything, you know a high power wash They can be washed this this factory applied paint is better than Any paint service you could get, you know paint it onto the building. So it's really in there Okay, um I mean, those are my questions message here. Thank you good um, I had a couple more Go over again the insulation the walls and on the floor are using a foam insulation or what kind of insulation are you providing and Okay, so that on the slab there will be a rigid foam insulation Um on beneath the slab Okay, and we've been using Eps these days as opposed to xps because it's a little bit more Environmentally responsible, um and then the wall has, uh Cellulose sprayed into the cavity and then the rigid, um Eps on the outside of that applied to the studs Now Okay, you have you blow in closed cell foam and then you put no no no no cellulose not closed cellulose or your plug going cellulose Not foam. Okay, and then you put a baton over that of of um So the on the inside Yeah, so on the inside, you know, they have this netting and they apply it to the stud and then they spray cellulose into the stud cavity And then on the outside there's a there's a membrane That we apply over the plywood. It's a sticky uh breathable membrane that provides the air barrier for the building And then over that goes the rigid insulation and over that the siding Okay, um now when you stick to one inch layer I think we got this worked out so you can there's one inch of rigid and when you do that you can apply the siding directly To the foam You don't need if you're any more than one inch then you get into having to have strappings in a secondary wall kind of situation This is far beyond my this old house knowledge of Um, yeah, things change pretty quickly. Yeah, so that's that's that's mostly for my My information but that's that sounds You know impressive Um, so does that do they still talk about our values? Is that still a thing? Is there our value to what? Yeah, and that I think on that slide we that slide out from c et that I will I will send you this package has All the r values that we're trying to get I can't quite remember what it Yes, but And tell me why um, I suspect I know why I think it's probably in order to get certain subsidies But tell me why there's a hers rating and and you have to comply with that hers rating. What does that mean? who's okay, so the first that reason is that um that the energy there's a new energy code 2021 i.e ie cc And there's a stretch code applied to that which amherst is part of So those that code requires A hers rating which means there's a consultant that is Hired to do work on the preliminary design which would be that report and then during construction they certify that you're meeting the energy levels and particularly That there's a air blower door test that's performed on the building And to measure the air info the air tightness air infiltration rate And they basically do these measurements and then sort of and have a report that gets sent to the Building department, so it's it's a two thing. It's partly the building code and it's also mass save um And the mass save depending on what level you're going is somewhat more stringent than the current code That certainly used to be the case the code is certainly catching up to that though So there's both code requirements and is there a financial incentive to have To be have a higher hers rating than that's right. Yep. Is that correct? There's a higher That's what that that mass save is giving us that it's giving you some money back to meet me to those levels all right um And then I I want to go back to the non-vented dryer first. I mean maybe this I know this is probably Kind of a picky unit, but it seems the advantage of a non-vented dryer is that it puts the Heated air back into the unit, right? That's right. It's not It's not exhausting air and putting you know putting a negative pressure on the on the building and Yeah, and because if you're if you're blowing air out, you've got you've got to bring it in somewhere And if you bring it in you're gonna be Probably bringing in unheated air And is it are they it just seems to me that they're it's it's more expensive. It seems like you have more maintenance And I'm just I don't know about the you have to do the cost benefit analysis on that and I'll I'll leave you to be You to make that judgment, but it seems to me you're adding potential You know potential fire hazard with having two filters that people have to change I know how hard it is just to change one and I don't know how much I know how much benefit there is to the to the The integrity of the air integrity of the unit to have the Event going outside, but yeah, I think there I don't think there's any fire hazard because there's no It's not like a gas dryer dryer where there's a flame and it's not High heat, but I agree with you completely. It's it's kind of a if if we can Meak our hers rating In any other way, this is the last thing I would like to do because it is a piece of technology that is There's finicky. I don't I'm pretty competent. We don't need to Yeah Okay All right, other people have other questions about architecture. Um, Miss Greenbaugh Yes, I would like to ask since you just brought up about the heat from the dryer Is there a window you can open in the warmer weather? That's the first question And the second question is can you open the windows in all weather? um For example the inter seasons Not necessarily air conditioned weather. It's nice to open the windows So all all the windows are Are most practically all the windows are operable. So every space will have operable windows Even with dryers that that room You can get the heat out in the summer. Yeah You can I mean they're gonna have air conditioning as part of the heat pump, but Well, but you don't I mean we have We have, you know, typical Um, operable windows, they'll all be case windows. There'll be everywhere um So there's no we're not we're not trying to uh Achieve energy savings by reducing the window area in this in fact, we're kind of doing the opposite We're having increased window area on the south sides To bring the sun to bring the sun in they want to No other question. I had another question This and this was brought up by the planning committee one of the things that I was impressed with Was the thought of having an outdoor storage unit for just rakes and things to take care of their private yard um the planning board also brought this up What's the square footage of that? I know It's impenetrable. I know it looks it looks really small to me and yeah, I'm not it I don't think you need to have a big enough to store a lawnmower Maybe a push mower, but not a lawnmower, but just to keep stuff outside, you know the to Rakes and hoses and just work. We are working with that on that Bigger. All right. I'm trying to work. It's it's not we're still we're not gonna it's not gonna expand dramatically, but You definitely want to make it larger. It's complicated because there's habitable space over it and the way the roofs work out but And it's complicated because the door if it's if it's farther out the door banks into your heat pump or the Compressor and current waves throw all those things are there. I understand. Yeah, but I agree Well, we're we're working on trying to make this a little bit bigger because it really Looks pretty small. Yeah, and just so that there's enough room to put some Not shelves but just post so you can hang stuff otherwise It's yeah. Anyway, so you get what I'm talking about. Yeah, we definitely understand that. Yeah. All right Um, we'll see and then lastly so when we have The two-story bordering up against the one story. I think that's the d unit Yep You've got that storage space in between and you have so it's that on the second floor Is that storage there's storage but there's a floor and there's additional storage space on the second floor Internal storage space now. It's not Hight but it would be it has some height and on the two on the three bedroom on the two bedroom Which I didn't show you the c unit The I mean sorry the one and a half story Two bedroom that actually becomes a it's reconfigured a little bit and becomes a bedroom It's it's just the layout of those is a little bit different, but that that area is actually one of the bed Yeah, so then there's storage areas on the first floor the only storage they would have is that connecting area in the first Yeah, they have a little Um, I think we got them some storage in there, but I think that's actually I'm glad you have storage area They don't have a basement. They're just things you have to put some place that you don't want to have hanging out in the house And so the storage area makes you sound that's good Okay other questions regarding the architecture or the Mechanicals I guess what I'd like to do is is raise some of the issues. I know you've had this discussion with the planning board Um, they've written us a letter asking Um, that they raised some questions and I thought we just go over them briefly I'm expected you already given some thought and the first is Uh, and this was the memo from miss breastrupt that Memorialized some of the questions raised by the planning board and miss breastrupt is there if there is anything that I'm missing Or that I should emphasize more just chime in with that but one of the things is is lighting and We had a little bit of a discussion about this Before and in the last meeting where there it seems to me that you have responsibility to balance safety and Um, comfort for people which is a real concern with reducing the spreading of light and being sympathetic or or complying with sort of the The Ethic of the area of town you're in which is a little bit lower light More less less urban and more sort of A kind of ex-urban kind of feel to it. So how we just what have you decided on on the on the light and Give me the pluses and minuses of higher how you're looking at that The lighting the paths and the spine all that sure. So I think what I can say that what we propose is sort of the Maximum of what we're comfortable with as a design team Um, and as I stated in earlier meetings, we're happy to reduce that Um in ways that the board believes makes the most sense and still feels safe. So whether that's Reducing some of the lighting on the pedestrian path You know whether it's just leaving lighting in the parking areas and leaving the the path completely unlit You know, it's really I think a discussion for all of us as you as the community Um to determine what makes the most sense But make you know, we what we've presented is basically the maximum that we feel comfortable that makes sense at the site Any people have comments about lighting? I know there's some discussion in the past I mean the one thing is I I really do think that you need to have those the spines the spine road Well lit but downcast and it doesn't have to be 40 foot high, you know lights that shine all over everybody's yard but but that you're going to have a walking path down the middle of your of of this Development and Especially if it's in winter you need to have people see what's on them on the path. And I think that Downcast lighting low it doesn't have to be at a high level Very tall, but I think that's really important for both safety walking safety as well as safety of people in the area And there are ballards that are being proposed along the walking path And maybe the ballards is sufficient lighting in no additional Higher lights are needed, but I still think that we do need some some lighting in the parking area That to me feels important Again, it doesn't have to be as high of the poles I I have to go back to the lighting plan to look at the number I believe it was 14 feet is where we landed if it feels like that we can reduce that into a Smaller scale, I think that makes sense as well But again, you know without having lighting standards for us to kind of work off of from the community We're kind of trying to Come up with something that feels safe that we're trying to make it a safe Area, but we don't want to overlight it either I mean to me it's important to understand that there's wildlife corridors that are behind This property and that I don't want to have too much light that inhibits any wildlife movement So um everything is dark sky compliant. It's certified dark skyed fixtures So I think we've presented the best that we can in terms of providing the most light Again, we're happy to reduce that if that's the if that's the board's desire And lastly you're gonna have it an automatic system off on You know some kind of I suppose a solar Not a solar control, but um, it'll respond to the light when it gets dark And motion controlled as well. So they'll get a little bit brighter. Oh and motion controlled as well. Okay. Yeah Mr. Chair, so you have two hands up I see I'm gonna go to chris first because she might have a comment about this. Go ahead. Ms. Presto So I just wanted to um bring up the comment that mr Henry made last time which really struck me because I think you know, we're all used to Wanting light levels to be fairly low But mr. Henry pointed out that people who move here might be moving from Places where they may not have felt safe and that they When they move here, they want to feel safe. And so, um, he Was recommending and he could speak for himself because he's here But um, it appeared to me that he was recommending that The light levels that were proposed not be lowered in accordance with the planning boards Recommendation that he thought that people who lived here Might appreciate having a well-lit Little neighborhood, so That that is correct. Ms. Bestrup Yep There was that was the discussion last week For the last time we met Ms. Greenbaum Yes, I I was going to point out that I Objected to the design of those 14 foot lights as being much too industrial for the The more rural character of the housing and I would like to see a different number one design And secondly I have an old-fashioned lantern in my front yard with with led lights in it Downcast and that one lamp Which is probably equivalent to a 60 or 100 watt bulb? I don't know quite what it is. It's been so long when it's in there Um, it lights up my whole yard the one thing so that I don't think We need as many lights in that parking lot as people may be thinking and I wanted to Ask or make sure that there is a Motion detector to turn them off so that they're not on all night long But I I really would like to see a different design on those lights in the parking lots More domestic design other comments about lighting I just want to add excuse me. I just want to add that To what Ms. Greenbaum is saying I think changing the design does not necessarily Reduce the lighting and so that should be considered if the design is going to change Of the fixtures rather I don't think she's proposing and she can speak for herself, but I would No objections to the design to blend in with the neighborhood and the community But still advocating that the lighting is not reduced. Yeah You know with what we should I haven't studied the lighting plan What do we have that in the in the packet? Yes, it's in the original application solution. It's page eight of the site plan set Appendix a So I got c a 9 c a No So the the first attachment I believe that's was submitted with the application outside the narrative and all of the forms Oh, I like that of here e1 Uh c8 is the lighting plan. It's impossible to read at least I can't You know what I would encourage members to take a look Is at the lighting plan I I'm not going to take time now if I don't find it and go through it But I encourage you to take a look at it All right, miss breastfuck Lee Jennings of Dodson and Flinker is here in the audience and she has her hand up and I believe she Was one of the people who made the lighting design So you might want to call on her if you have a question about that That would be good. She could comment on the The what we've been talking about that would be very helpful Can you hi everyone? I'm lee Jennings with Dodson Flinker. I live in Amherst and I thought I could share with you Um the slide from our presentation that also shows the light fixtures if that would be helpful Please do Um, so the slide shows the the 12 foot Hole that goes along the central spine and then the 14 foot arm mount Which is the typical to use an arm mount at a parking lot to direct the light Over the vehicles and then the the bollards for the secondary paths And we were trying to choose a fixture that's um kind of neutral not too Historic and not too contemporary and meet the dark sky Requirements Okay, before you leave that let's just run through we've got the dark orange is the The 12 foot pole the 12 post tops. Okay, and you got those That those are dark orange. Yes, and then the lighter orange or those was the bollards the bollards, correct And then the circle with the black circle with a kind of a yellow Center is the 14 foot parking area ones correct and what is the what is the standard amount of I guess foot lights or The measurement you need to have sufficient light on the parking lot and on a on a pathway Right, so, um What do these numbers mean and what should we be shooting for right in the absence of um town standards? We went with kind of the IES recommendations Uh, which would indicate for this type of environment, which is not, you know, a mall That you would have a half a foot candle to one foot candle in parking areas And a half a foot candle in pedestrian only areas So that's what we're getting across the site With no light trespass beyond the property line So I'm looking close at this and it looks like the spine path is 0.05 correct that right and the and then the Sidewalks to into the set the homes that are set back Are also with those bollards. They're also at that level, correct right Of course, there's always slightly higher foot candles right underneath a fixture Yeah And the the lights will not go completely off at night. They'll they'll be dimmed and then when there's motion they Brighten No Although you can that it can be set You can adjust the the settings if you want to go Very very low. You can set those ranges but that could be the the amount of Of I guess Off light when they're off the amount of light that's that's can be set by the homeowner's association Time they can make that judgment. That's what they want it to be. Okay all right Nira and miss green bombs your objection is to the 14 foot You think that's too Like any of them but the little baller that I can put up with but the other two are just avoid They're not man I would say industrial I know with care contemporary or what but I would like to see something more domestic and scale That's style I'd like them to go back and look at the catalogs again I wouldn't use them even a commercial place that I owned Um, let's go on to the next issue that the planning board has raised. There was the big heat This is one that we raised as well Mr. Chairman, I'm going to interrupt you but uh, philip has his hand up too. I think he's talking about the last point It's so hard to see when you're yeah, we have the I'm sorry, mr. Mr. Henry, it's so hard to see who has their hand up with this. It's um, sorry It's mr. White philip white mr. White. All right. See how hard it is to see It's this background but the other options. Yeah, it's even worse with with your background. Okay. Yeah, all right As far as the lighting plan goes, of course, I'm very thankful for the recommendations from the planning board and of course very sensitive to making sure they're not interfering with the migratory path But ultimately where I fall on this is I'm going to have to be I think in agreement with mr. Henry in that I think We need to make sure that we're Allowing these residents in home. Excuse me. Um To feel at home and feel safe in their homes and I think this lighting. I mean, I think the lighting path is fine as it is That's my due to cents for whatever it's worth, but Got it All right vehicular traffic I mean the one question we had was can we make my question this last meeting was How do we make sure that we're not having cars running down the middle on your on your spine? Road and what you said that there's a ballard up with a removable chain That you could you could for you needed for emergency vehicles to be able to get through And I'm satisfied with that but I think the And how do you prevent Amazon trucks? I guess the question is just that You heat the chain on and only the police and the and the emergency folks can take the chain off That's got to be the way you control it, right? Yeah, I mean, I think that's the that seems to be the best Solution we were really trying to respond to fire department comments. Um, we did initially propose removable ballards and they requested that we The Removable ballards can actually take too much time for them to remove when there's in the case of emergency so there it was We were responding to their comments and requesting Mountable curbs and then at least having those two granite posts the chain can Be set up if the homeowners decide that that's what they'd like to do Or the chain can just be taken off completely and just leave the mountable curbs And we do have proposed signage as part of the packet as well that says this is for emergency vehicles only So it is going to be some some, uh, behavioral Watching that's going to need to be done by the homeowners association And it is something that will need to be addressed by them if this becomes a problem right Who would give them the tools to make the decisions if they want to make and they can correct that's just Empower that correct all right I don't have any more comments on That comment from the planning board um Next was mailbox areas I am some I'm somewhat sympathetic to a larger mailbox areas because it might be easier for people to to gather I mean that's a the mail comes in at 11 30 and you know people come out or whatever it is to come out and gather and as well as um help each other out with packages and that that kind of thing So that does make some sense to me. I'm hoping you might be looking at We can certainly look at that if that's the desire of the board What do other people think about a larger mailbox area or mail shed? More of a community area does anybody have a thought on that? I I would lean to that um, but the the other question too was um, This was considered yet that The two mailbox combined into one. So there's only one unified address. Was that looked at address and discuss the app So that hasn't changed since the last time we discussed the address. Um We do intend to change the address So we've had that conversation with town officials or in town staff. Um, it will be an address on monagu road And uh, but we haven't taken it any farther than having those initial discussions We can't do anything about it until this permit is granted So the the complexity is in order to to a and r off the existing rental home that a and r needs to be part of this permit package And Her address is 2040 ball lane. So Or 40 ball lane and all of her services her utility trash all of those services are at that address So I can't really change the address because then it kind of messes up the utility services for the rental property on the site We could also condition Later on that that be a requirement they do after the permit's been granted um In case you wanted further assurance that's going to happen Okay, thank you rock It's green bomb I think the the mailbox area is kind of small There didn't seem to be room for very many carts There are a lot of people work and go shopping at the same time on the weekend There's not going to be enough carts for people to get their groceries home Yeah I agree with most of things the planning board said Yeah, I People have a lot of stuff and those houses are very small So I mean, I think that's something you I I sense there's some support here amongst board members to Look at perhaps enlarging the The post office sheds for lack or the mail sheds for lack of a better term Okay, and that might make and there shouldn't be expensive very expensive to do that Give it a little more function um Miss Bresta So I think one of the points that the planning board was getting here was trying to get to Was that there may be some confusion on the part of people delivering mail As to which mailbox shed they should go to So they were wondering how is um Valley going to demarcate one mailbox shed versus the other in other words Does someone have to go to two mailbox sheds to get their mail every day or How are they going to sort that out? Um, so that's one of the things they were pondering Sure. I mean, I think it's it's actually probably fairly easy this this Development will have one property address and units will be assigned a letter or a number And so those letters or numbers Are um on those mailboxes. That's how I've seen it done in other condominium developments where they have You know separate mail areas for separate, uh unit configurations So, um, I think that's easy enough to solve in terms of how somebody would get their mail They would be, you know assigned The mailbox would be the same as their unit number Thank you um Unless there's any other questions about the mail shed Story sheds. We already talked about that. I think there's some desire to to make a bigger to explore the Possibility of a bigger shed possible common building Um, we had that is not something we talked about It seems like their planning board was talking about having a A location Where there might be in the future homeowners could build one I don't know why why you would need to do that now You know, I think the idea was during if if the homeowners Uh wanted to do this and if it was designated on the plan in like, you know, just a A bubble area of possible location for a common structure It's already permitted and they wouldn't have to come back to the zba in order to build that structure So I think that was sort of that it was trying to be efficient with the permitting process If that was a desire of the community to build some sort of structure, whether it's a bifidillion or a shed or whatever it may be Um, and we can certainly just discuss as a design team Where we think it makes the most sense to Locate the structure within the development and put some sort of bubble and you know Language on there that doesn't tie it to it but says, you know, possible location or location for possible Um future structure Okay all right We talked about heat pumps and mini splits Um snow storage that it was I think it was mentioned at the last Meeting that there's it looked like there wasn't very much space for snow storage Some card some parking areas We'll take up some of that snow. Have you guys given any thought to expanding the snow storage around the parking lot? No, we have not May not You have how many you have 18 how many parking spaces do you have in each of the parking lots? 15 No, they're different. Um, it's a total of 58 spaces. Is that correctly? Yeah, 58. They're right. That's right. That's right So you got 25 almost 30 spaces there That's that could be a lot of snow I think you have to look at you have to look at where that snow can be pushed More than I my preference would be to push the snow off to the side and not take up the parking spaces during the winter But um, I think you I'd ask your design team to to do that So we just also have to be cognizant of storm water regulations and where those snow storage areas are in relation to the storm water structures Um, and in relation to the wetland and wetland resource areas, so we need to be thoughtful about that Well, so let's can you come back? We're doing the storm water. I think next week Can you we don't have to give us a firm plan? But you can give us some your thinking and what? what um difficulties you have in expanding those given the storm water and the and the wetlands considerations otherwise I think they you don't look like they're sufficient But there may be reasons that they are the size they are we've talked about the maintenance the exterior an electric vehicle charging um I guess they're just saying how would they be metered and I think that would be controlled by the by the homeowners association and not Probably not maybe initially by your operation, but not long term the homeowners association. Yeah, I mean I really I feel like that it's important that not everybody in the homeowners association has to pay for the cost of charging One or two persons electric vehicles And so I really I feel like in terms of equity and fairness it makes sense to have it be a system where somebody is paying for a charge Um, and that it's not the burden of the homeowners association to pay for those charges Um, I I also think it's important to recognize that this is for the homeowners and is not a public charging station That is not the intent so you wouldn't at this point time you wouldn't be opposed to a Condition that set required a subscription or paid paid per kilowatt hour on the on the uh No, not at this time, but if that if the homeowners association again if they I want to create a different system in the future I want to make sure that they have the ability to do that without having to come back and reopen the permit so Some sort of flexibility in the language. I think would be um, beneficial or just being open to the idea that the homeowners themselves may decide, you know, 20 years from now everybody might have an electric vehicle So it might not be as big of a deal as it is now Um, it's hard to hard to know where our technology is going to be in 20 years from now. So that's true I also agree with miss allen. Mr. Judge because um in thinking about this I don't For see these homeowners immediately owning an electric vehicle Yeah, yeah yeah, and I and But for the one or two that may spreading the cost amongst all of them seems to be unfair Uh, it seems to me most fair thing would be to have if somebody is fortunate enough to have an electric vehicle They pay for their own fuel Otherwise I want I want everybody to share share their gas bills with uh with each other, right? Correct. No, it seems to me Um, mr. Jennings like you had your hand up and you took it down Did you have something you wanted to say? I was going to offer to share the the drawing that shows the snow storage But I think it's better to Wait and discuss that with the civil engineers at the next meeting. Yeah, let's do that to see if there is If we can get past or see how far we can get with more snow storage and still be in compliance with stormwater and conservation requirements, okay And just in speaking of conservation just so the board is aware We did go before the conservation commission last night to open our hearing with them Um, and that hearing has been continued to december 13th all right Do people have other board members have other questions regard for the applicant before we go to public comment On the this application Miss green ball I missed what she was saying about a hearing on december 13th So for us No, no, no, we'll be in front of the conservation commission again our hearing with com com was continued to the 13th I just wanted to keep the board um aware of our parallel permitting with another board so that you're Thank you. I missed. Thank you Great, um, if there's no other comments from board members at this time or from staff I would open it up to public comment this is an opportunity for public to comment on the On the application special permit application If you wish to do so, please use the raise hand function on your screen or press pound nine on your phone When you recognize get your name and address for the record I will try to keep your comments to about three minutes. I'll try to help you do that by Running a timer on my phone um Do we have Any comments any Right with the raised hand rob None of them seen mr. Chair. I guess with people a few more minutes or not minutes, but I guess like five more seconds to To do that, um Nope, not seeing any I don't think we have any public comment Okay I guess one the one last question I have is um, I never know how how much More detail we'll get before the before um january when we hope to Make a decision on the conference of permit in terms of the architectural drawing and the finalization of that um rob mora What how much more do you need before from them if anything? And then I know that the construction drawings with more detail later But is this sufficient or do you normally need to get more detail coming from applekinson This before final approval or a final consideration No, this is fine for this process if if the board's comfortable with it You know footprints and heights are all established and you know, that would be the parameters usually The comprehensive permit will have a set of conditions that you know Kind of set the tolerances for changes that can occur that might be considered Minor enough for me just to approve through the kind of the final construction documents and permitting process So it really is at the comfort of the board at this point So, um, I guess I'd ask Where's the art mr. Chalmers? and miss allen Would we have a palette by a january of colors for the um for the The units would we have? Maybe a more specific kind of Layout of the how the different clavards versus B board on the different units I'm just thinking about the in terms of the exterior look The drawings are pretty good. I kind of like it, but it's I know I'm putting a lot of my own Thoughts and do it what they're they look like so I'm kind of From a black and white drawing what I think it might look like so that'd be great to have some kind of color schemes or a few Colors that you're thinking of and a little bit more detail on the the exteriors But after that, I I don't think I need much more in terms of the interior of the units Just for clarification. So I think um And tom can correct me if I'm wrong, but the clavards. I mean, I think we feel like We've kind of landed on a pattern for those done. Those are we have Yeah, we did have a yeah, we went through a lot of different versions. I think But we could get into some different color schemes Just having palette. I don't you don't need to tell me that building four is going to be You know a light brown, but just give me a sense of the palettes and that of the colors that you're going to use So we got a feel for what it would look like Yeah, I think we've already pulled some color samples from the hardy plank catalogs and I've sent that to Tom and his team so we can review that and just provide you with the with the palette colors from the hardy plank catalog If that makes the most sense for you Great. Okay. Are there any other details on exteriors that you were looking for beyond the clapper design? I'm not but I think you may want to you may want to respond to the screen balms and see if there's alternate there may be one or two other ways to Structure the lights. Yeah, that's up to you. Um, but you did have some questions about the The 14 foot post and you may want to take a look at that. I don't have any other Questions, I don't know if anybody else does So my hesitation about messing with the lighting plan I mean, I'm happy to do it if it's the the majority of the board would like us to but it is an expensive Thing for our team to do it it costs us money to hire the Oh, no, I'm not I'm not talking about I'm not talking about changing the amount of What is it foot lights? Light feet what it what's what's the measurement foot candle. Thank you. All right I'm not talking about changing the foot candles. I'm talking about I think this green balm Was interested in a different kind of light pole and out of the now. I don't know if that's A different style not a different amount of dispersion of light. So that's Her thoughts and her questions. And so I was just raising that in order that You may want to let me circle. Yeah, I'll circle back with with everybody and see what we can we can come up with for other styles We may end up having to do another photo metric plan because every fixture has a different Um, different amount of light different amount of light. So it you know how we change the fixture We actually have to redo the plan. So that's why it's so and instead of having that come up at the last minute, you know Let's see how how important that is but okay give us some Don't engage in a new photo of Ochaic study until You've got some kind of feel from the board that that's really important. Those are the fixtures that they are comfortable with Okay. All right. So fixture selection first Yes, okay But I I don't want to impose additional I mean, I also don't want to have a hold up at the last meeting where we say like the lights. So got it. No, absolutely Deal with it. Yep. Yep I'm happy to do it. I just want to make sure that it's worth the time and the effort and the money to do Let's not spend the money until we decide that. All right. This green bomb Got it. Yeah, the other thing that I feel very strongly about Is that there should be a taught lot where kids can play safely Little ones and not be taught that they only place they can play is in the road They don't have to play with fire. I mentioned the road. I really feel strongly that it has to be a place set aside for kids to play that's safe And one of the reasons I'm pushing that is there were three deer in the field yesterday. And so that means Most of places those kids have are going to be where the animals are crossing and being ticks Being in the presence of ticks and I'm concerned about that and I would like them to find some place Where there can be a taught lot where kids can not have to play in the hay And you know have a place where they can ride their tricycles or whatever And not have to go to mill river I feel that they should find a place for that somewhere on the plan This green bomb is saying there's something like a bubble Something like a bubble that they talked about for the building You know an area that could be decided by the homeowners association in the future as an appropriate spot for a playground or a play equipment or As opposed to as opposed to um, creating one now with that Salt that's a fight for you that they identify an area that could be used in the future Well, I was trying to say and didn't realize you were talking at the same time That most of the family housing that we've approved in the past for rental housing Has had a taught lot Where kids can be safe and here you're not going to have grassy area you're going to have You know essentially hay fields with deer and bears taking a regular trip through For the daily meal the bear that comes to this area goes And this is from the video that they showed last year on so The bear that comes up to this area is the bear with the green tag And it calls a couple of houses past mine all the way into the quabbin And and the mountain range the whole yoke range That that's how much that bear gets around I haven't seen her yet this year, but I'm not going to say anything because I don't want her to come But they are the female bears because the male bears brains are too small and the The crawler is off. Well, that's what they said. That's what the bear guy said on the video And paul blockham and made a special point of telling me to watch them Well, I I always learn something when I have a on a zba meeting and I'm not known about male male bear brains before so Mr. Chair, can I just respond briefly to to these comments? So um, yes valley has has Provided taught lots in our rental projects where people don't have their own backyards and their own spaces in order to play And so providing a common area for people to gather is really important in a multifamily rental building in the situation we have People have their own limited use areas that are their own spaces that they have the ability to play in It's really important. I believe as part of this project is to have the homeowners have ownership Of this space and to create spaces that make sense for them Um, there are several open grassy areas that can easily be converted into play areas and play structures can be placed on them um, there's lots of opportunity to create areas for kids to play and so um We're happy to put again A bubble saying this is the potential for a common Um shared space whether it's a taut lot or a structure or whatever it may be But I know that this is important to Hilda and I and I respect her opinion on this But I would just like the board to consider that Let's allow these homeowners to build their own community and to create a community that makes sense for them Rather than having us come in and dictate sort of where things should be I think it's a more organic process And I and I think that's important to to consider that as part of this is a home ownership project not a rental project Well, I'm thinking how much it costs and they you know They have people that don't have a lot of money Rob you had your hand up Thank you, mr. Chair. Uh, so I guess One thing that was brought by the playing board that I think should be included in the plans as a future If it were to happen that this is the area where it's going to happen is definitely that community center or shared building Because that's crucial because Otherwise they would have to come back and modify this permit again in the future Which would take a long time and be costly to the homeowner association in the future it takes over So I just want to stress the importance of having that for a future meeting doesn't have to be the next meeting per se But before january definitely Okay All right, um, if there's no further comments anything from the in the e of the applicant members of the staff Uh miss brushfield I I know that laura baker, um Would like to speak she has her hand raised. She's with valley cdc Sure. Hi everyone. Can you hear me? Yeah Just give us your name and address for the record. My name is laura baker. I work at valley cdc We're located at 256 pleasant street in north hampton Just a quick comment on colors because i've done this a number of times with 40 b permits It's a little tricky to get locked into a color palette I think we can give some samples one thing that does happen in the world of hardy panels is they discontinue colors pretty routinely So, um, we may not have the exact kind of colors to choose from when it's time to pick colors So, um, I just want our group to have flexibility. We will choose extremely nice tasteful colors. I promise Um, and nice color variation, but we I think it's a mistake to lock into particular colors this early in the planning That's all. Thank you Okay, um Just know the comments I would entertain a motion that we continue this public hearing on zba 2024-03 Until december 7th at 6 o'clock Do I have a motion? So moved second second Any discussion All right, that only discussion is that that that hearing we're going to deal with stormwater management and And an infrastructure designs so basically storm water and we're going to come back with some snow And some other issues that we raised so that's what's coming up If there's no further discussion The vote occurs on the motion the chair votes aye Mr. Meadows. Hi Miss green bomb. Hi, mr. White. Hi It's five nothing vote carries The smoke matters continued until december 7th. You've got to ask mr. Henry for his vote mr. Chair Oh, you know mr. Henry you're you're I did do that because your picture wasn't up Can I get your vote? Hi mr. Chair I It's very distinctive logo, but it's not as not as just not as recognizable as your face It helps it helps my internet from not going out That's important. That's important. So I apologize mr. Henry. Thank you rob All right, the vote was fought now. It's five nothing and The motion carries next order of business is public comment on any matter not before the board tonight And so people who wish to comment on any matter That's not before the board tonight may do so now. Um, when you if you wish to comment, please So indicate by raising your hand or Pressing nine I'm seeing a mass exodus of people in the attendees The numbers dropping If there's a message here guys, but this has been happening a lot that The public comment we even ran off my better half The attendees and I texted her I said watch you leave Oh That hurts That really does hurt. Yeah. Oh goodness. Okay. All right. I see no public comments. Um That next order of business I guess is any old business and I think the only old business is or new business Excuse me is uh the schedule. Yes Can you just talk a little bit about what we got coming up on the seventh? We have this Yep, so on the seventh we have this. Let me just pull up my calendar quick. Mr. Chair. I'll have it in front of me. Um So the seventh we have the stormwater discussion. Um the week after that on the 14th We do have one public hearing scheduled. Um, the panel still has to be selected for that um, it's for a Restaurant slash nightclub type of establishment called Gabe's underground. Um, they're going into the former hazel's nightclub space at butwood walk And We anticipate this one I don't it's too early to call but It's similar to the type of use that we saw with the spoke except they're kind of doing half nightclub half restaurant And the restaurants can be operating normally throughout the day and then nightclub's kind of like a weekend thing late into the night I think the total rob correct me if i'm wrong on this. I think the total occupant number was around like 300 If not slay less than that like 280 or something like that. Uh, so not as big as the spoke which had 500 But that's going to be on the 14th um After that the 21st. I believe that as our next uh valley cdc hearing for um The various topics that I can't seem to remember fully, but you have on the schedule I got them Property management income restrictions financials application selection process and local preference a lot of the management issues Yep, exactly. Um And then on the 28th, which is a tricky time because that's between christmas and new years And i'm sure people are going to be wanting to take off that week. Uh, so far we Have received an application that might have to be heard on that specific date It's actually for a slate amendment to a comprehensive application in north amherst at the coals Um, I think it's called the mill district. Yeah, that's the name of the project. Um, sorry, that's before my time So i'm not very familiar with that project. I believe they're getting a new commercial tenant So they need to modify their permits Um, so I know it's gonna be hard to get people to serve five around the time because of the holidays So we only need three members presence For that specific Okay, so hilda is one member and then um, i'm sure as we get close to a time I'll try to find two other people or maybe enough for a full panel Who knows but that is what we have for the rest of december mr chair. Um, and then I guess one thing I recommend is that the board Um at its next meeting on the 14th Uh decide on a meeting schedule for 2024 and I could start putting that together next week when I get the time to But um, this is usually the time of year when you look at the meeting schedule Decide the dates suffice and then just decide to vote as a board to To go with those meeting dates for the next year. So I will Get started on that and then send it to everybody beforehand so you guys can give feedback Um, usually we do the second and fourth thursday of every month. That's how the zba has always done it Or at least recently since I've started but um, that's pretty much all I had mr chair And I will be sending out that um meeting schedule within the next couple weeks or so All right. Thank you rob. Can I talk to you for a minute after the meeting about the zoom on my pc? Sure, you just stay on after everybody else leaves. We can talk about it if you want to All right Okay, everybody, uh, unless there's any other questions people have issues to raise I think we're done for the evening All right, um, I'd entertain a motion that we adjourn They'll moved Is there a second? Aye Mr. Henry's seconds the motion This is not debatable and it's a roll call vote The chair votes aye. Mr. Meadows? Aye Mr. Henry? Aye Mr. White? Aye Ms. Greenbaum? Aye