 hello hello oh we don't yeah just a minute you look very red okay now we're really very uh much better hi hi um thank you for taking a short time with us um we were we read uh really carefully the link you sent to us so most of our questions are actually answered in those links i mean parts of our questions but uh we still have some so we we are happy to escape with you um we are a super public the place where you where you came last time in paris and yeah well we have a great memory about those things and actually we are about to move in another a new place a new building like a a civic hall a civic hall um that the municipality of paris is giving to us so it's quite exciting um we'll see how it goes yeah i was asked to to be on the advisory committee actually for the new civic hall but i cannot really travel to paris so i had to say no but i i know the plan uh so so when are you moving um we are moving actually now wow that's great we have to we have to launch the new place uh in january probably so it means that we we have to work from now to december and the place is only for a year so it's really short so we have to to be quite quick to move if not it doesn't worth it but you know how it is sometimes things are temporary and then it does last a bit longer and if it's really for a year with the municipality should um give us another place in another space in another i mean just after this which is actually better so let's see wow let's see how it goes we'll see we'll see yeah so um we will be uh this conversation will be on the record and uh at your preference we can publish either the text transcript as you have read or the video or both um i think we can decide after the the conversation if it's okay with you can i can i ask you a question like what what software do you use for the transcript it's brilliant oh okay it's actually not software it's a web service it's called casting words casting words okay so um yeah it's i think it's only half automated it's casting words dot com yeah okay so you can see my white board right it's good yeah okay yeah definitely great so um we prepared some question that we didn't read in your interviews but maybe actually uh we missed something so sorry if uh if there is sorry if you want to answer this question um so most our first question about uh concretely the tools that you are using uh while working civil servants like do you use uh uh the special tools do you think it's did you find that difficult because uh yes some of the civil servants must not be really used to are you think only open source tools um well this kind of question okay sure um yeah i actually on pd's website we have a uh a page just for the tools um but uh i think we refer to tools uh both software tools uh and also process tools yeah and and it's it's quite different that the two of it um the software tools we use mostly the open source um suite called sandstorm okay dot i o and and sandstorm is this um secure self-hosted completely open source tool that i also mentioned in uh new desi day uh it's it's a combination of uh slack clone a trailer clone a google doc clone a google spreadsheet clone um like like everything that that one can use during team collaboration uh so it's a productivity uh suite that everybody can just add to it and because it's open source um the pd's team uh pd is that's my office uh also wrote our own apps on top of the sandstorm um platform such as the hack folder which uh people use as a collaborative hack folder which is a collaborative uh bookmarking tool uh and we also wrote uh i think it's called bendone or something it's it's a it's a way for people to order lunch together okay uh and the main advantage of that over the quick survey form or whatever is that it provides uh tallying and also a place to upload the uh photo of the menu of the restaurants that's being ordered and things like that so so you see it's very practical tools um that we're introducing as the software collaboration it's um meant to be what we call in the flow of work meaning um people don't use these tools to fulfill some other um process it's uh designed so they fit into the existing process just as a smarter alternative a collaborative alternative to existing tools and because of that it requires very little training um to use the um collaborative um lunchbox ordering tool um you just have to you know use type form or google forms before because the ui is exactly the same uh the same goes for collaborative writing spreadsheets chat rooms and and whatever right so so because of that um it doesn't really require special training so we also don't meet much resistance because we designed so that they look like their desktop counterparts or their um online sauce counterparts that's that's one part of it and um for the process we also use uh process specific tools and here we don't necessarily use only open source for example we very heavily use uh goodnotes okay which is this app that i'm using now to communicate with you uh and then it is not open source by any means uh but but it's we don't have very good open source alternatives and because we're not modifying and distributing it anyway so we see um smaller motivation uh to to innovate on the software part of this but we introduce um goodnotes as a way uh to promote facilitation uh collaborative note taking uh more focused um discussion during meetings and things like that so that's one and during meetings uh and large town halls we also use slido which is again not open source um a way for people to um enter q and a uh enter questions uh during the talk and yeah usually when there's thousands of people um when when people hold the microphone like for forever uh it really uh diminishes people's ability to to talk but uh now uh using slido we were able to see for example one question or one statement that has hundreds of likes and if i answer one of them because it's sorted by order i answer essentially a hundred people's questions so it's a much better use of people's time um when using things this way and uh you you you you have you made a talk in paris uh where you present the your case about uh social housing in taiwan yes right so that that's what what it was used yes okay yeah uh right and uh we also use real-time board uh which is again not open source um and i think this is really key because it it um puts the note taking the post it notes um into somewhere that many people can collaborate online so it's like a a smart whiteboard and we use it specifically to do uh service design in the sense that um we get people's ideas in through for example e petition and then we have designed a form to make those e petition uh sentiments into the factual the feeling and the suggestion part but then we draw a tree that makes uh the real-time board apparent in the sense that it distills people's arguments into this kind of service design diagrams that people can add on without losing focus and then we print it so people have a conversation around it i can show you some examples um just a second um it's it's all in chinese but i think it's still possible to see the general form of it um okay let's see if this screen sharing works um all right right so um can you see my browser window now we still have we we have good notes okay uh like oh yeah okay great right so this is a um a typical um meeting where we have a five thousand people petition and then the participation officers or ministries agree to work on it and this particular one is called lemon cars which is you know cars that was manufactured poorly and but it was not discovered until a few weeks into driving and people would like to return it and we don't have that kind of law here currently it's mostly individual contracts that covers only you 30 days of warranty and it's worded poorly and so on right so first we gather the stakeholders including the ministries of economy transport consumer protection as well as the private sector as well as inviting the proposal of the petition as well as the five counter signature people who responded first and then we use this real-time board to separate into the questions the problem statements the feelings the suggestions um factual information responses so that people can very easily see the policy map everything that's related to to this and this is the final form at the beginning the orange parts are not that many and so basically we get people into this five-hour meetings on a friday every friday to collaboratively fill in this policy map so we can settle on what's the best question to ask at this moment and then work on ideation development together with all the stakeholders and every Monday we just take it to the prime minister and other ministers up without portfolio and so usually we mix them together so that even though there's like two people from the same organization they ends up becoming different groups and every group work on one aspect of their problem and you can see that the real-time board is actually printed out in in the handouts so that people can look at the paper and use real posted notes to add the parts that they want to add and we in real time transcribe it back to the online counterpart and so there's a lot of online offline interaction this way and so by the presentation time people just have this idea development form which is then again real-time transcribing to online parts for the people who are watching the livestream or the slido to have input so this is a pretty sophisticated offline online collaboration that we're practicing every week so that's how we use real-time board we also use virtual reality a little bit but it's more experimental so the everyday tools the process tools are just the three I think that's answer to your question yeah yeah it does and it might look silly because I know in Taiwan you are more I mean generally more um numeric friendly than in French friends but we have often this problem in our program is um we have like the service that is in charge of security or safety for the network and internet in the administration yes and this service doesn't allow us to use some tools for example first of French administration using Google map is not possible this kind of from the workplace this kind of problem or here yeah if it's pertaining to to national security of course that's another matter but because by definition I don't even touch national security so it's less of a problem also because we host the core tools the sandstorm tools ourselves so you can see that one of the first thing that I did was to ask the same people as you mentioned the department of cyber security to commission a security review a penetration testing of the sandstorm platform and because the sandstorm platform is also a security product it's not just a productivity product it's also makes it much harder to attack those individual programs so once the department of cyber security did the audit of the sandstorm platform itself it is less worried about the specific applications that we run on the platform because the platform itself is hardened it protects against the the intrusion so I think it's essential that we have this this security hardened platform underneath the the individual applications which all may have security problems but they are mitigated by the underlying platform and also another question that might or might not be relevant for your context in France usually if for example an administration wants to create a new public service probably she the administration will make a really expensive contract a public procurement with an external developer and you see the person writing the public procurement they are the person in charge of the policy they are not really technical as usually what they are they are asking something like a little bit I don't know they they are asking for I don't know an app for example but they don't know what they want but they still have to explain everything in the public procurement and usually it's a big contractor like a big company or that will that will do the the app and so usually the the app in the end will not really be exactly what it was supposed to be at the beginning just as a yeah so do you have this kind of big contractor the administration is working with them or are you developing internally or well yeah we do have this kind of procurement but one of the work we're doing is that we're we're separating the back end which is the function itself storage cybersecurity and the front end which is actually the way that it reaches people like through a website or through a bot or through a app or whatever right and as well as the the experience itself the design and I think it is important that we can use tools for example we just adopted the open API three standard what we call the OAS as a national standard and this means that during the procurement all the units all the organizations even though they may not know the technical details they can demand that for all the parts that interfaces with other systems the back end developers must offer not just human readable functions but for all those functions it must also offer machine readable APIs and their APIs need to be produced in a way that conforms to the open API standard which means it's not proprietary it doesn't use proprietary extensions and also we change the procurement regulations so that any organization can demand this at little or zero cost meaning that the the bidder cannot use this as a reason to charge a lot of money to add the the open API support and I think what this means that it is what we call a decoupled architecture for for example one very concrete example is the text filing software Taiwan's text filing software was this kind of monolithic procurement as you said and it was required to be cross-platform so they use Java Applet for Mac and Linux but Java Applet is actually deprecated by Oracle so it makes a very bad user experience because you have to skip a lot of security warnings and also downgrade Java and then whatever just to get the text file system to run while the windows people can just file it in 10 minutes so it is obviously not digital equality so once one of the participation offices brought it to our attention what we did is that we restructured the procurement so that the original contract only covered the back end parts and for the HTML5 actual cross-platform part that is the front end and it also runs on a cloud and like automated elastic cloud and this part is contractually separate from the back end and they so that they can be done by different vendors or even many different vendors because maybe one wants to make one for specific needs so what this means that it opens the the gate for many different front ends without worrying about cybersecurity issues right and then we ask the petitioners on the e-petition system who are themselves experienced designers and ordinary people who just want a better text filing experience to run workshops to redo the flow of the experience and again this team is completely unrelated to the other two teams they have produced a what we call a service design a user journey right blueprints and other artifacts and then we take those artifacts and ask the one of the front end bidders saying you know whether you can just incorporate it into next year's design and this part doesn't really touch the back end at all so so what what I'm saying is that maybe it's it's not possible to completely make the organization aware of all the different disciplines involved by using open api and other service design methods we were able to decouple them into smaller contracts and each one has a different development methodology that can involve the user from the very beginning while the back end one doesn't really need to change or to rewrite them so much yeah okay that's really interesting because in France we we have this kind of specialty of for example for health for health insurance national health insurance they wanted to make a new platform and more mostly internally but it takes ages and millions of euros and in the end they didn't even manage to make it because of back end problems so yeah um it's really interesting what you just said but like so that's for example what was exactly your role uh when you suggest to other administration to use this process of what you say the decoupled yeah yeah yeah is it like a note that you will give to other administration is it a training right how do you communicate with them that's a that's a great question um so mostly we provide suggestions uh we don't uh issue orders uh but uh suggestions take um the form of uh templates so the idea is that uh the the public servant doesn't really need to know anything but if they know that for example they want to involve uh early stage user participation um then we provide them with examples um that correspond to their situation for example um just a second um right for example this is the the um agile rfp and then uh we have provided links that um corresponds it to the part that actually have used agile rfp so they can compare whether this suits their need or not and uh we also make very public the cases that we actually did uh as pedas um for the general public so that once the general public knows about it it's possible for the public servant as part of the general public to go back to their units saying can we do something like that for example um we integrated um the the two national disaster response uh agencies one has a map view and one has um a lot of data into this shared uh map based view and but this is entirely uh transparent the all the meeting logs and everything is is online so people can know exactly how we made the decisions and when we when we made it and another case is um again with the decouple architecture a data driven architecture is a national dashboard on the vegetable and fruit prices because people will speculate on those prices after a typhoon or something uh but now we try to make it entirely transparent whether the import export um the the stockage and things like that are all published and again this is done in the open meaning that the data providers from the agricultural agency from the local markets from the weather bureau and so on they they become aware of this the possibility of doing these kind of things and so they can write their own proposals saying okay we want to do things this way because it lowers everybody's risk overall and share the the highlights so that's the basic idea it's not so much as telling all the ministry that you have to do this but to make two or three really prominent cases visible and make very transparent what are the decisions involved and provide templates to every step that's the basic idea okay and uh on your everyday work uh your team uh with exactly what kind what's um with uh who are you working in in each uh administration is it with uh like the top direction is it with uh some people working on specific projects is it um a mix of uh all of that like what do you like where are you right we are so that you had some in each administration you have someone dedicated to that that's right we have uh two different uh networks the pita's team itself is actually already very dynamic because i'm a anarchist as everybody knows i don't give commands so everybody who worked with me are actually volunteers so aside from me and the two like assistants that that came with me uh everybody else are actually coming from some other agency and volunteer to to work in pita's so for example um our core legal person is actually from the national communication agency and the ministry of culture and the ministry of the council of of agriculture and uh the ministry of finance so this is are the initial teams and then we are joined by um a lot of uh additional people from the national development council the uh one of the the more respected uh previously a director of information department uh and um many other people as well from the the triple i the institute of information industries so it's very interesting because then uh around this time i asked um all the different ministries to form a participation officer network so the p o network uh now we have a we are going to have a regulation about it is that in each of the 32 ministries like a lot i can't draw that many they select one two like three or more people uh who directly report to their cio's and our cio's are either secretary general or deputy ministers of that ministry so um the pros they join a chat room uh they join the sandstorm collaboration platform just like the the other pita's people and we add to it um five people six now one from each of the um institutes in the in the triple i in the information industry institute so they are mostly people who can actually write software but on the other hand also participate in the um national policy making information industries and so throwing some filmmakers and random occupiers uh we and artists and designers um so so that's how the network looks like so um it is about 22 people here about 20 people here about six people here about 50 people now here and and um basically we just run weekly uh lunch together uh and the people in the p o network anyone can raise any issue uh as agenda for us to talk about and we meet with p o's um deputy ministers every quarter to review how the open government thing is is doing and the triple i people here serve as a kind of hit team to to solve any information issues because usually when there's some issues that requires timely resolve resolution you can't really have um a contract so this is like a in-house coding team um that can very quickly within you know one day or two day code up a a system from scratch just to to solve some issue that really needs to be solved so it's a rapid response team for the participation offices and the pita's team mostly just work on whatever they want to work on it's entirely um anarchistic within pita's but usually we also play the supporting role of if one of the p o say you know i want to run a participation um text file and software about we don't have designers here one of the designer from pita's will just randomly join the ministry of finance on that team for for a couple weeks just to get things bootstrapped so so there's a really good two-way relationship between those teams as well so so it's as you can see very organic and loosely coupled but so far it's been working pretty well cool um i don't know if you have other question lilas but maybe what we what we thought would be nice if you if you have still a little bit of time of course to explain to you a little bit more why we are doing this interview today of course in which project and maybe have just uh like an insight some insights and maybe some advice for the participants of our project that we would just describe do you want to to describe the do you feel like describing the project or do you want to do it and just yeah anything to it maybe you can start okay um so what we are doing tomorrow i mean it's not tomorrow it's the day after tomorrow actually uh and the day after the day after tomorrow is we we will gather 15 persons coming from different really different backgrounds so there are civil servants from city level county level national level and also people from private private organization and NGOs and like a bunch of people working on numeric designers sorry yeah lila is designer so designer developers and so our project is about trying to imagine collectively the future of administration so that's a foresight project called les éclairs and so it's one day and a half workshop all together and so the aim is to to imagine some scenarios for the future of the administration and then second time in a second time we will uh at la vente city imagine we will work on those scenarios and then we will prototype some of the ideas at least one of the ideas that was developed during the workshop and try it in different administrations so it's uh on both uh we have both uh legs we have one really blur foresight scenarios for administration in five to ten years and also really uh concrete prototype that we want to try uh like in a month so it's it's like something we have done three times for now on different topics and it's working really well because we think that foresight only is a little bit too blurry and but we need it to imagine things that are like really new or not not happening for the moment or not like yeah to imagine new stuff and so the topic of the workshop we will do tomorrow it's um how do you translate that actually i don't know digital project frugal do you say frugal uh no i'm checking for the transcription i mean translation of the word actually um yeah that's frugal so it's uh how do you say numeric digital digital uh digital administrative project with a frugal point of view frugal do you understand frugal yeah yeah like like a shoe string budget right yeah that's not yeah that's kind of a play on the word that we we because for us it's it's more on i when we say frugal we think more environmental problems yeah let's see that some of the administration can obviously like see also what you just mentioned like less budget so it's a way to play on those words because we don't want to make an administration with less budget that's not what i think but it's often what we hear so um and i don't know for us it looks a little bit like taiwan is already the administration of the future in a sense it's i guess we could do we could begin the the workshop that's just a documentary about how is it working in taiwan it looks like crazy for french administration well we're not too far in the future we're just a few hours in the future um like um so anyway i think i think frugal is a is a really good um angle because um in taiwan of course we see we say also things like um circular or sustainable design um and and i think it's a very good angle to to focus people's um energy on on the digital because uh in too too many times when people think about digital they think about something additional uh to paper they think about something that's um very shell business like but uh i think in the end um digital digitalization of administration um should not be just you know five different agencies and each replacing the paper or face-to-face workflow with online counterparts because that means if the user want to access the service she or he also have to visit five different websites it's just you know the websites instead of uh offices but but i think um digitalization has they promise to really simplify the working environment of public servants and i think that's the the core message of why i call myself a public servant of public servant because instead of telling public servants what what they need to do i always ask uh how can i help to simplify your work and i think that's um a really powerful um simplifying work a really powerful strategy to introduce digital because um it means something that's worth learning right because it if it actually increases their work uh it's not worth learning from their perspective even if increase citizen satisfaction there is nothing in it for the civil servants themselves but uh to to introduce digital design they really have the potential to not just simplify the the user experience but also eliminate redundant or unneeded work uh from the civil servants themselves or even automate them away so um of course by by this year people are asking um is the minister trying to use ai to to make us you know jobless or uh to to take civil servants out of the loop and i always say no what i'm trying to do is to increase your working condition so basically anything that can be replaced by a machine gets done by a machine but that means that human beings are are now listening and are now making value judgments and these things cannot really uh be replaced so i think simplifying work um is a really good driving value if you're you're uh having the frugal um angle because nobody will argue for complicating uh civil service yeah that's true um maybe i don't know we thought i don't know if that's ring something for you but we thought maybe you could just uh since the conversation is recorded and will be published in a way or the other we thought maybe we if you have some basic advice uh for civil servants lost in in french today administration like how what what kind of uh mindsets and posture or um or yeah advice can you give to can you give to them so they don't give up and try to imagine the administration of the future i mean frugal digital administration well sure uh i think what what the work uh all of us are are doing now is essentially rebuilding trust among people right among all the different sectors and and trust as we know is a a relational concept meaning that it doesn't really exist only on one end or the other it really takes um a reciprocal um relationship but i think uh there is every reason for the citizen to to mistrust the government and uh i think it's mostly not because the government has done anything wrong but because of the you know social media and uh a new generation of digital technologies that makes the civil society much closer to each other for example the ngo's or the designer developers they can get um gatherings like uh the github the other meetups and everything that the new generation of technology really brings people like really really close together and uh once people are this close and sometimes i think unhealthily so um because the emotions and subconscious also overlap but in in any case they feel like really close to each other and and once uh this kind of feeling permeate um it suddenly feels like the distance between uh the civil servants and the citizens are are very large a large distance um we see that over the world but it actually has not changed at all right it's just the people have a different way to to organize with each other so um i usually have two uh messages to say here the first is that the civil servants can also use the same kind of tools uh to build solidarity across ministries and uh in the administration itself and uh basically cultivate a a very digitized solidarity to demand the uh national government to offer working conditions that doesn't treat them as machines or paper pushers but actually improve their their workforce so that's the first thing and the second thing is that because trust is bi-directional um if we can let the ngo's and uh individual contributors see that we are willing to trust people first then eventually they will trust back because that's just how human nature uh works but it doesn't work the the other way around we cannot say you know we should uh do nothing and have the citizen trust us that would be fascism right so i think we really what we really need is to to um conditionlessly uh trust the the public and whether it's through radical transparency or whether it's through open data or through open policy making or through this kind of imagined scenarios of foresight all this is basically saying you know we we trust you to to not be mobs to not disrupt the public administration but actually bring something that we have no thought of to the table and i think just this posture of trusting um is already making the public service much closer to the to the people because people the ngo's designer developers are know this kind of conditionless trust we've been like working that on the open internet culture for decades now so once civil servants adopt this posture they will be seen as like authentic uh allies in this project to make everybody trust each other more uh and not as you know faceless people serving in the civil service so first to to organize using the same tools internally and second to trust people uh externally that's i think the two messages okay nice um i don't know if you have a other question maybe i have just one last but it's not really directly related to okay but it's uh more general context about how are things going how things in taiwan like uh ho ho is your um how do you say government going is it like yeah we're we're doing well um the the approval rating of our administration is at uh historical high um we have a new prime minister that's the main reason uh but um it was he was selected and the handoff was um coordinated by the previous prime minister so again a very peaceful handoff and i think um one of the focus um at the moment is to um to make this kind of uh deliberative or participative process even less expensive uh than before so uh during 2015 when we did the uber case it was like a one shot case it's really expensive we put lots of hours into it what we're doing now uh is to regularize this so we can run it weekly and there's a standard operation process and everything uh and the ministries stop seeing uh so this is what we call mainstreaming uh of participation right uh because previously they see it as something they have to do extra work but now it's just something that happens every friday right and then it just takes them to say a a afternoon's time to prepare because people have so much experience uh dozens like there's more than 20 different collaboration uh strategies we've run now and because every single one involves more than 5 000 people so the whole society is aware of it so taiwan is 2.3 million people um and i think that four million um is um sorry 23 million people and i think uh i think four million uh people are now on the the joint platform the participation platform which is a really good penetration rate and that means that generally people trust the government to talk about things um seriously if they bring people to the platform and that happens very predictably and so what mainstreaming does i think is to it lowers the the fear uncertainty and doubt um because the uncertainty about the process was the main reason why um people don't adopt this kind of process in the first place or doesn't adopt digital tools in the first process because they were not certain um that the risk will be worse it was the trouble uh but because of the mainstreaming now the people can say you know the digital minister just does it every friday um there's much less uncertainty and the fear over risk taking is also much lower because um instead of risk instead of blame avoiding and credit seeking i adopted the reverse strategy i'm blame seeking and credit avoiding meaning that uh if a public servant decide to run this process it's the experimental process they can always justify it saying you know um it's the digital minister during experiment so so peter's uh just absorbs the uh the risk if it goes wrong it's it's all Audrey's fault basically but but if it uh but it goes well um then the attribution the credit is actually to the um not just the ministry but actually to the public civil servant the career public civil servant themselves because using radical transparent records everybody can see who is the one that actually proposed this wonderful uh idea so using this um strategy we see a lot of public servants now um proposing creative ideas that maybe have only 20 chance of succeeding and then peter's collaboratively make it a higher chance of succeeding but the the the motivation is there because they know that if it works it's their credit and it doesn't work it's it's Audrey's fault so i think it is a really important um atmosphere to to make this happen so we resolve many regional cases this way also and we we're actually going to the most rural areas and even offshore islands and try to get people into this kind of deliberative meetings without learning any digital tools because it's the meeting itself being digitized using what we call ambient computing um rather than having the people going to a website or whatever so so that's our current situation we're now being handed uh more and more challenging cases uh the i think end of this month we will finally meet the um uh the workers solidarity struggle union who argue for uh for seven more national holidays um so that was the classic case i remember when i had a uh interview with Amelia she said that that's one of the classic cases that there's just no compromise it's a either or thing um but but we we believe there is still room for ideation and for creative solutions so so we'll we'll find out whether it actually works or not end of this month and next month we will also go to one of the the only public national park for marine uh species in in taiwan uh and where people again argues for uh putting a ban on fishing in an area uh in exchange for more uh diversity and and better diving and other tourism um inputs and and again this is a classical environmentalist versus uh local livelihood debate that many people think is a either or but we still think there is room for creative solutions so we're we're being handed more challenging cases in the past few months but that also means a career public servants trust uh this message more because previously they were more um inclined to just suggest cases that involves the only digital issues or things like that because they know there's less to lose but the fact that they are now willing to vote this kind of cases meaning also that they feel more confident in this kind of method so that's how it's working here okay super nice super nice thank you i don't know if you have some question but first i think we have a lot to yeah to think and well it's it's no it's really nice to to to have this conversation i miss paris a lot that's the only thing i have to say uh and i look forward to to visit either in flesch or as a robot um to the new place yeah for sure if you come to paris please uh please come to visit either in our old place either in our new place all right so uh that's all i have um wow it's in our time really nice so yeah so are you comfortable with me just publishing the the video or yeah for me it's okay and i think our video is really blur anyway so it's true it's true okay so i'll publish the video and i'll also make a transcript um so that's if that's okay with you um and we can just edit it over the next 10 days or so all right so so best luck on your on your uh gathering i'm sorry can you send us the link the link of the the video and and the transcript once it's done of course yeah thank you thank you so much okay thank you so much have a good day have a good day bye bye