 If you change the typology of dining into a set of tools where you can experience food and connect with stories, then you have the power to create starting points for people to connect with the stories and tell it to others. And then we have a collective story for a better future. Jasper Utik Tenkate is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas, brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Jasper is an artist and designer, a true creative founder of Creative Chef Studio, 15 years in the food business and six years as an artist. This wonderful creative chef studio is a multi-disciplinary art and design studio. From his studio, he and his team create experiences that evolve around artwork, design objects, and stories that are often but not necessarily linked with food. Experiential recipes use ingredients like biotech, physics, coding, music, philosophy, product design, biodiversity, fashion, graphics, painting, and all kinds of other disciplines that you could imagine. He says each of his experiences are a true performance, they are experiential recipes that are served in space and time all over the world. His studio is also specialized in creative art direction, product development, and marketing strategies for company, and he has worked for companies like Nike, Reebok, Google, Bright Food, Shanghai Bass, BASF, Rabobank, Abner Moreau, and many, many more. Besides that, Jasper is a good friend of mine. We met at, yeah. Yes. Welcome to the show, Jasper. Thank you, Mark. We actually first met at an event in Copenhagen in Denmark called Lafayetteur from another mutual friend of ours, Nils Müller, and Trend One, and we both were speaking there and we were both kind of experiencing the event and we both participated and kind of got the short end of the stick. We both participated in this event for climate kick, for EIT, the European Institute of Technology, around food, framing food for the future, what it looks like, and it was a workshop that took a substantial amount of our time and input and thoughts. While the rest of Lafayetteur were kind of out eating and cruising on a boat and having fun and experiencing different things in the city, so we got the short end of the stick. But that's how we met and we just hit it off and I'm so glad that you've been able to come and be a part of the show and talk to me today. Thank you and welcome. Thank you, Mark. Thank you. You have been doing this for a long time so you have background as a musician you play a couple of instruments, a keyboard was moved out of the way before we started the podcast and you enjoy music and kind of that entertainment experience and all you do, but you're a true artist and creative and all you do. You've been dealing with food experience and design for quite some time, but there's a strong underlying tone of sustainability, environment, plant protein, kind of healthy food, clean food. And you grow a lot of your own food. And so my, my big question is, we've just experienced a shit storm of craziness this last 12 plus months. How is all that experience and what you've been working on been for your design studio the creative chef studio been for you personally has growing your own food giving you a little bit more resilience during this time how have you weathered this crazy time Yeah, it's a good question. I think I think it's it's it's a good era for for my studio to really focus more on the things I think that are important in my work. So, I think it's really important to reconnect with with with the topics so I'm focused on so it gave me a lot of time to think and to plan ahead for the future. And I think it's also an era that's that that's that gave momentum for change. So that's, I think it's a really good thing. Because for me, I was working on the topic of sustainability, how can we grow foods to make the world a little bit better how, how, how should we do things in the future. And I think this crazy time created a stage for those ideas. So that's, that's the thing that is really good about it. On the other hand, I'm a busy guy, and I like to do stuff so. Yeah, it's it's it's a dual kind of thing I miss going out and cook for people and create experiences because that's what's now on a flat level. But overall, I think for for the main purpose I do my stuff make the world a little bit better. I think it's a good thing for humanity to experience some hardship. Did you realize that the way you've structured your life, not only your studio your business but you grow some of your own food some of the things you had the ability now to kind of be more at home reconnect do some do some other things as well in your studio. But that that gave you a little bit more resilience or time to say hey you know the, I have been on the right way for a long time that this is a better way to live and model and, although it has come has been a difficult time for all and we've kind of missed that social thing you found some really creative ways to reconnect with people one of them I'm going to mention before you answer the question. As you sent me a wonderful food box of food food experience, and it was through the mail and if it wasn't for and I have to kind of be a little mad at what if it wasn't for the Dutch post messing up my address and their slow delivery times. The food experience would have been absolutely seamless and it was, even when I got the package it was fabulous and enjoyed every bit of it. That you found some other creative ways to still share that food experience that creativity with people. And then what we did is when we got the box, we got jumped on zoom and we cooked in front of each other and ate the food and and drank over zoom in front of each other and it wasn't just me it was a bunch of bunch of our friends and acquaintances from La Futura and Niels and so you've done that among many other things so there's a museum project and some others tell us a little bit about that and and try to answer that question the best I best he can. It's good to measure because of some hardship or different times, you have to act. So for me it's important to bring over my story to bring out the story of a better world. How can we eat in the future. We will be more balanced with with ecosystem the world so indeed I came with with those boxes so so I created these boxes I also sent them to schools and other things in Holland to yeah to really interact with people and cook together a future meal and to have each ingredient is connected with with with with with I think hopeful innovations like insects seaweed. What should we eat. So all those things I combined them and I think it gave me a light in my head that I can reach more people if I do it in this way so that that's a good that's a very good thing. And I believe it's going to stay here also so I found a new way to tell my story, not only on exhibitions or live analog experiences but also in a way that we can connect with people through the computer and send food to them so they can really enjoy and experience the future of food. So that was a good thing. And yeah and that's that's that brings me also to my my other project the museum of taste I was we were talking about it earlier, and I think that's the base the foundation of this new way of connecting with people. So I'm working together with a gardener in a near my studio, and we created a museum like experience in a garden and what we do is when there's no covid we ask people to come over to the garden to the museum of taste. And what we do there we grow foods in an old fashioned way just on the land with no greenhouses but in the piece of garden and we grow old varieties of vegetables and all those vegetables are planted and the seeds are from seed bank from the Wageningen University. And the seeds are dating back to 1850. So we have an old carrot from 1893. We have a few old cucumbers we have all kinds of varieties of apples beetroot and they're literally time. Yeah, like it goes back in taste you can taste the past. And the idea behind it that what was when you ask people what color has a cucumber or kids, everybody says green. And I started thinking that's a that's a strange thing because there are a lot more varieties so we grow also all kinds of colors of cucumbers in that museum of taste. And that was the idea to create a museum like garden where people could come and experience the stories of old varieties. They can taste it and when they taste it and experience those stories of other crops that are not in the supermarket. Then then they understand how it works people lost a little bit of the connection with with with with varieties with with with all the possibilities of vegetables and other and biodiversity. So that was a way I think to connect people with a story that will bring the world also to a next level in the sense of when you taste potential possibilities. When you taste biodiversity, people connect with it they will understand it when you only hear it. Then they maybe you'll talk to somebody else but when you actually taste it, then then you'll be more interested and you'll be wanting more of that so that's a project and people here about it, I bring them to the table in the end and in the end they taste it. But the thing is I only reached in a year. I only reached like 100 people who experience it. And sometimes I'm I was at a big exhibition somewhere and I had a small tasting. But I always work with local stuff so I was never able to really do that but but this is this era now is for me. Yeah I can I can send a package to you. I can share the story of all those plants and all those great seeds and all those future possibilities, and then I can reach a bigger audience so that's a really good thing I think and as we were mentioning about creating experiences, talking to people that that's that's that's part of a bigger thing it's we are you me we are creating a collective story for a better world. So I think that's a that's a good thing. And this era brought us more potential reach of our stories man. Yeah, I think it's fabulous so not only do you kind of take everybody on a time war per journey back back to all you can almost say back to the future given them a trip back in history, but then bringing it into the future and say you know there's so many varieties. I've been fortunate enough to taste some of these historical props that you're talking about and in species, not only when you cooked for me but before. I think it is absolutely fabulous that you're reconnecting people with other species of foods kind of giving them a new look at the world of food you're being creative and in the process you really show them that there's flavor and taste and that taste of history can come back and it's pretty pretty amazing it's a good good meal good flavors things that you can do with that. And you have this innate knack to to do that to connect people with experiences around food and creativity to make it fun. There's another project you worked on where it's for the people who are blind do I can't see something, but they can have an art and food experience at the same time, even though they can't see it and it's kind of, it's, it's beyond, you know, dining in the dark or you know this eating in the dark but it's, it's an experience that you've, you've received some resonance and before can you tell us a little bit about that and how, how that works and what you've, you've reached there and then then I want to kind of touch before I move on. You say only you've only reached about 100 people in this last crazy pandemic time, but I believe some of those people can help you achieve that critical mass where they, they have connections to another 100 people or another and they tell me the experiences that you create and that it will really create a big movement. I believe that's one why we're here today but also that I've seen that in the past with your work works has really far reaching potential. Thanks. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can tell you so so the project you were talking about it started out as taste the Dutch masters, it was a project for a museum in the Netherlands in the Hague, the Mauritshaus it's called, and what I actually did was, it was a, it was an exhibition of all 17th century still life paintings by all Dutch master painters and they asked, they asked me, can you think of something and what I did I recreated one, I copied one as a 3D version so it's like a, it's like a black box with a it shows like a, it's like a painting and I put the food in and when I was there, a group of visitors came and I told the story about the food which were in it and the background of the painting and the perspectives and they had a blind person with them with that scene. And she was there and she thought well, I'm here with these guys maybe they can tell me something about the paintings but the guy didn't expected that he would actually feel and taste a work of art so in one second you saw him experiencing this work, touching, feeling everything and that moment I realized this is a way blind people can experience art, they cannot see it because art is mainly a visual thing for people but I can tell them a story and while feeling he can understand the reason why it's a beautiful painting or the stories behind it so that brought me to think of a new project and we're now a few years later and I'm bringing this project to the Central Museum in Utrecht and we're going to do a show, it's called the blind spot and what we actually did we created the same experience but now we enhanced the project with materials so blind people can feel shadow and they can eat, they can hear an audio tour but we also invite people who can see to experience this work and be blind for them and in that way they will interact with art in a new way through other senses and at the same moment they will understand more how it will be, how it is if you cannot see really good and so we bring together two worlds so I think what we did in the end we serve inclusivity right, we bring together worlds who didn't connect really well on the level of art and now we bring them together through art and through food and storytelling we give understanding for each other so I think that's the power of experience, the power of food, the power of storytelling and it's a nice project so I'm really looking forward to doing that that's so great, thank you for telling us about that the other thing my listeners don't know is you have your own cookbook, your own book it's called creative chef how to create a mind-blowing food experience it's also sold out we've got to get on the publisher to get more sent out and print but it's a fabulous pack with recipes, stories, tips, tricks and to turn your dinner into just an amazing experience you have children of your own and I don't know if that was any inspiration for the book or how it came, can you tell us a little bit besides you being creative, besides your music and the way you design and have these experiences what led you to get into this and how did you birth this baby? yeah I think it was a process I cooked a long time when I was young I wanted to be a painter or an artist or a drummer but my parents said you have to go to university so I went to university and then during my studies I started cooking and I found a stage in cooking so that was my creative output and after a few years I started my own cater company I found the cooking studio entrepreneurial adventures and then in the end when I was working for all my clients the artist in me came up and I wanted to stretch the typology of dining why are we always sitting down and we always do the same stuff, I think things become more exciting when you twist a little notch here, when you have a different perspective, when you perceive the act of dining in a different way and I started doing a little thing like adding a notebook or serving a poem I did small stuff and people were really excited about it and then after a while I ended up with well maybe there's something in it, what do we do when we go to eat? we're experiencing a moment in space and time so I started thinking a lot about what do we want when we have an experience we want to have a stage for our own stories, we want to connect with stories of others, we want to share stories so what things can I come up with to nudge people to do that so I came up with a set of ideas to make the food experience better or more inspirational so I came up with usual things like we can add music, we can add sense, we can add information in different ways and it grew to a bigger idea and in the end it turned out in a book about how can you use these topics to create a better way of or a better way to experience food and I think experiencing food is very, very important the book is really nice and fun but there's an idea behind it because I want to reach as many people as possible when you experience food in a different way, I talked earlier about it then you will remember the experience and when you say something or bring something to the table at that moment in space and time which is actually a good thing for the world or for educational purposes or maybe marketing purposes then you have the perfect recipe for story retelling so I think I found out that while doing it, making the book it became my tool kit for bringing over stories and in the end I think while we're sitting here now there are a lot of problems in the world we have to fix those problems and I think we as a human being all have opinions and all those opinions make it, I think it feels for me that it's really slow the progress because we have all those opinions and ideas and there's a money idea behind it but when you are able to create experiences to create a direction of a story I call those collective stories then we will go in the right way so that's the idea behind it and those experiences are for me starting points for people to connect with that story and I hope to send them in the right direction so a long story short this book was for me to show that if you change the typology of dining into a set of tools where you can experience food and connect with stories then you have the power to create starting points for people to connect with the stories and tell it to others and then we have a collective story for a better future so that's the idea behind it, it's like a combination of behavioural design connected with food and a little bit of purpose I love that and it's a wonderful book and I'll put the link to it in the show notes and description so that people can get out there and get that and push your publisher to get some more out there for sure I want to kind of touch on a sensitive subject and see how you've experienced this during this crazy time so you originally was a drummer right, you started out drumming in a band or just yourself or tell us a little bit about that yeah drumming in a band, I make music so I have a band, jazz band, pop band, I make my own music so it's like a semi-professional super hobby great great great but I have a lot of creatives who are also artists and musicians and talents out there and this around the world and during this time they've really been hit hard you know there's no more clubs, there's no more events, there's no more concerts in most places, I mean there are some places Taiwan have had baseball and sporting events and things and it kind of came out faster than others but for the majority most of us have been locked down in this and you know some have moved to online you know this online couch jam sessions and online sessions and things it's just not the same it's a little bit different and so those who solely earn their bread and butter or earn their keep through music and creative ways and bands are singing, singer songs and songwriters for the majority have been hit pretty hard you know and this and they're like how how am I going to pay my bills how am I going to do this before I was kind of squeaking out before but then I know others not just like you another good friend of mine is Ava Karitich and and have many others who who are performers and artists and musicians that have been pretty well equipped because they had the climate environment they kind of knew where we were going what things were on the horizon they knew that you know and they had this diverse palette of tools and things that there are things where they could still integrate music and their creativity and be part of that but do it in a different way so that they could still survive and probably not maybe not as good as they used to but to get through this time have you seen that as well with your friends and and others who kind of that that was their soul soul life kind of concerts hotels bars you know clubs whatever doing records whatever and and what have you seen and and is there is there a learning lesson from that a better model or a way to help them to transition and get through or or what are we seeing in the whole creative field. Yeah, period. Yeah it's good but very very hard question maybe because I think this era shows us that we were not that we're not on the right track so all kinds of levels food wise economy how does how it works everything so but in the end the people who bring stories into life memories the musicians the artists and the people who who who come up with the recipes of the food and not not the big companies who who sell it the chefs they were all I think those people are one of the most important people in the world because they provide people with meaning. So that so they provide the content people learn about later on so when you have an art class you learn about artists you learn about musicians but and all those people also scientists scientists they come up with ideas creative ideas and this era shows that the system is not good. In a way that that that the those people who provide our stories they end up being miserable because what should we do. What should we do. It's kind of hard so I see a lot of people struggling coming up with new ideas but it yeah it doesn't work now so they end up being hit hard and I always and I think they are one of the most important people also to facilitate inspire people to to to design a new way of doing things so I think creativity is now the a little bit the creative the old creative world is like a victim of this era, but the good thing is that creative people are able to come up with good ideas and they can step outside of the boxes and they are also able to show resilience and to come up with new ideas and I think it's now a little bit of a bad time, but we'll be back. And yeah, I don't think there is a future without creatives I don't think there's a future without music and artists and those who inspire us in different ways, regardless of what format at what size and how famous they are. They, everyone has a role to play in a part to play and creating just a different movement and vision of the world and and you know that goes back to the, the common I made to you, you know you said during this time you only really been able to prepare, you know about reach about 100 people with this experience and I believe that there's a strong percentage of those 100 people that are really going to spread the message and that experience that they had that will create a ripple effect of critical mass to reach thousands and and numerous people so don't ever give up and it's kind of it's kind of like this, this bow and arrow you know you pull back the bow to the arrow go but during that time you're pulling it back it just feels like you're going nowhere there's you know all the energy spend and pulling it back and it's kind of this pause. But the minute you let that that that go boy the momentum to take off the critical masses there and I see that the work you're doing that you're continuing to do is just really going to multiply and explode and I guess that's also a message to not just to my listeners but to those creatives and artists and musicians who are listening. Don't give up, we need you we need your songs we need your messages we need your music we we need your creativity and your art to really catapult us into a new era a new epoch of not just sustainability but a new ecological connection with a symbiotic earth with our earth and and that we are all earthlings and we're all we're all crew members and navigators on this spaceship Earth none of us are passengers I mean they're they're kind of as a short period when you're a baby and when before you pass away when you're maybe having trouble walking and things and you all you have is certain facilities where you have the right to be a passenger for a certain period of time and you give the ability to other human beings to kind of help to realize that they are also crew members on this earth they're helping the babies and helping the elderly to to make that transition and in that learning the importance of life and earthlings that we're all on the spaceship Earth. I really want to move into some some harder questions for you and get into some removing bias and sense making. I know your opinionated I know you have some strong feelings on the world and ecology, but you feel like you're a global citizen and and how would you feel about a world with the removal of borders nations divisions of humanity one from another. Tell us your thoughts and feelings on that. Yeah, so that's that's also progress but I think the thing is the best thing is would be if there were no borders, if we could all agree with each other. And if we can believe in certain values of progress, which are not based upon economics but based on balancing out with the ecosystem, I think that's that that's an important thing. And those topics are are really hard because humanity. Yeah, we are conditioned to get recognition to be seen to to leather. Yeah, so we all have these this. So it's that that's a hard thing and I think when you think of progress or how we can we make the world a little bit better. It's a really hard thing. And so so my P and would be that we should stop stop having borders. So we can, we can speed up things between countries, we should start learning kids about a healthier food pattern. We should start. We should stop spending our times on on what I call bullshit jobs, but we should grow our own foods. All those things what what are the most important things in life it's it's water, and it's food. I think we should get rid of all the BS and and focus with each other towards a better way of living and and and but yeah you know, as I do it's really hard to do to do that so the only tool I have now as a person is to yeah to facilitate moments where I can tell my story so people will talk that same little story to others. That's what it is. And I see a lot of problems because yeah they're all. Yeah, I think in Europe, you see some sparks of young people who are were beginning to let go of the old values of I can remember all days where it was really important to have a big car. So so I think that's a good step that we're that the youth nowadays say well I don't want a car. I can begin. We can have a car with all the people's in the streets, we can share it. So that's a, that's a good sign. But yeah, I mentioned something that you said that that I know that it's a difficult thing what what what specifically do you mean is a politically difficult thing is that a country based difficult thing. I mean, what, why, what do you what are you seeing as the difficult thing about it or what are your, your thoughts and opinion of why, why it's difficult. Is it, and maybe I'll lead you a little bit. Is it the human condition. Yeah, yeah, it is because people in China, they are conditioned in a different way. And they see things differently than that you and me do. And we, you and me, we also are seeing things different. But the old way of dealing with that is that that people will say, you are not right. I am right. And I will prove it, and I will give money to to scientists will prove that I am right. And, and there are people who talk about those ideas, and they earn money with it. So you have all these kind of small stories, which are based actually on economy to get your own story as the one that is the best. There are a lot of small politics of evolves and there are borders and their companies, etc. So it's a really hard diffuse story. So, and I think when we want to speed up all the problems we have and solve those climate change problems, and then we have to agree more. I think agreeing with each other takes a lot of time because of the conditioning of people and the money, the money stuff. I think it would be very interesting not to focus on the details, but set a moonshot goal for the future, what we want to reach and work together and and and try to get everybody to talk a little bit the same story. And with the yes or the no, this is right or this is wrong, but with with the direction. That's what I was talking earlier about a collective story. So I believe what you do mark with this podcast, you, you facilitate a collective story. You are part of it creating it. Me too, and other people also who are very interested in this, in this, in this topic. And if we do our work really good kids, younger, younger kids will hear hear about it, and the direction of humanity will change in the right one. And what the right one is, I can, I can say, maybe that's what we feel as humankind. Okay, we know it's getting warmer. We feel it. And we know there's something wrong so we have to do something. And the old ways of our things, how now like you have to agree with each other and make our point that takes too much time. I appreciate you letting me put you on the spot so I, I hope be with all your knowledge creative knowledge and as a wonderful chef and person who grows his own food and kind of has that strong connection to not only organic but regenerative thinking and seed banking and old types of species. I've asked you to contribute a piece to my book menu be I hope I can lock you down to actually do that and, and be along the journey with us and give your views of your perspective and your experience and stories that that help shape this global narrative on global food reform that can really be a resilient change for humanity to shape the food of not just the food of the future, but how we produce and live within our safe operating spaces of our planetary boundaries in a, in a healthy and a very wonderful way that the taste is there that it's wonderful but it's also healing humanities health and solving our global grand challenges I really hope that I have you along for that journey because it's, it's one that's important for for humanity here your version and your, your aspect on that as well. Thanks yeah you're right Mark. Let's make things a little bit better. Let's tell our stories. And also the listeners talk about this it's important when you, when you tell somebody your neighbor about I have this idea about a better future. Tell your idea. It's about the idea that we have to work on a better future that's the important idea. So you spread the word. You have mentioned that breathing food and water is the basic needs of humanity it's mass it's at the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. You know I'm a sustainable development goal advocate always wear my pin. I talk about it quite a bit. All 17 stgs are tied to agriculture seafood food and beverage industries and the basic needs of humanity there are, they're not for cities for countries for governments or corporations. It's about humanity to meet the basic needs of humanity, because all 17 stgs are tied to food, and how we produce anything on this earth and it really starts with our biodiversity and our biosphere. I want to caveat that because I want to know, do you think there is an earth shot a moonshot you mentioned moonshot earlier, a global plan for the future do you think that there's a roadmap. Is it the Green New Deal is that the donut economics is that the circular economy. What one is it and is there some kind of a plan to take us anywhere in the future that you've heard about or that you know about, or one that you're looking towards. Yeah, yeah. It's also a big question mark because it's going to tie together but when I, yeah. I like to tell solutions to people that may go are not possible, because it gets into their imagination they start thinking and that's I think what we should do. All those things that are there the donut economy, the sg is they're important to lead the way. And I have also my own idea my utopian idea which I, which I, which will be working on together with the future food city. But the idea behind that that that there's a world 200 years from now, where everything is sold. And humanity is complete in in balance with with with with spaceship earth. Everything works together and everybody is creative and we make music and it's a good world. I think the most important thing of that world is that the food itself and the stuff we work with the materials, the woods, but also water. Those are the new currencies that's the new money. So I think the biggest problem is, is that food and water became products we could sell. And we started using those products and using those those things to create a world where everything is in one place and the rest isn't in any other place. So I think money is the biggest problem. Yeah, basically you're saying that we turned food and our basic needs into commodity. Yeah, we turned it not only into money but we started to gamble against it turned it into commodity and trading and investing it and you know trading grain here trading rice there trading. So basically basic needs and then local local farmers and food producers said, oh it's, I can make more money producing food from the Netherlands for Germany than I can for people in the Netherlands locally or I can make more money to produce food, you know for if I'm Australia produce me be from cattle or vice versa, then actually taking care of this local this very local economy first and community these community food webs that then we think about after we've taken care of our own infrastructure our own economies our own community that we didn't kind of think about the rest of the cities and countries around us as citizens. I think that's that's exactly what I mean it's it's also I'm a co owner of a chocolate factory, and we do it. We say the right way, but that's our story. Okay, it's. It is way more expensive than than the big, the big companies, but you can also you could also say as humanity. Is it necessary for us Europeans that we eat chocolate. Maybe it's it's it's it's it's makes more sense for a balanced out world if well when it's Christmas we celebrate and then we eat a little bit of chocolate. And it becomes a really special moment and memory. And for the rest of the year we don't need chocolate. The same goes for all the kinds of products that are made with with, well let's say, Dutch tomatoes. I'm from the Netherlands we have a very big way of a very big industry of tomatoes. And I think, well, is it necessary to sell those all around the world well it's good for the Netherlands. We have a very wealthy country and our kids are happy with good education. But what we're doing we are selling a lot of tomatoes to other countries with all with all problems with for climate change etc. But that gives us a lot of money so we can educate our kids, but we educate them to live sustainable etc but it makes no sense so I think we should think about that how are we doing things. And what you were talking about more local foods would be very nice and think about what we really need. If you step into the supermarket in a Western country. I think it's ridiculous that can that we can choose between, well, 16 brands of peanut butter, or yeah, why is that we only need one, and we don't need to eat peanut butter all day long. You know what I mean. We should shift as humanity towards a more self producing. Yeah, how do you say it. Yeah, if you grow 10% of my of my yearly food stuff as a family, myself, and I trade with with with with with gardens from the neighborhood. Yeah, I think it's a better way you, you, you provide food for each other, you connect with each other. You agree on more with each other because you need each other. And, and, and, yeah, I think that's important. That's the power of, of humanity is not about earning money with those stories, you know what I mean. Yeah, I really do. And I appreciate you kind of diving into my hard questions for for for that and the big topic obviously the hardest question I have for you today is actually the burning question. WTF and yeah we've been saying what the fuck quite a bit over these last 12 months but it's not the question that's not the burning question the burning question is what's the futures. And I want to know for you for your studio for what you do what's the futures what's your vision where do you see us going, where do you see us need to go. Do you have a plan do you have a direction of where you're going to be here five nine years from now 2030 2050. You mean all of myself in my studio right. What's the futures for you I mean do you have a plan can you share it with me. Yeah, I have a plan and the plan is I want to connect with as many people as possible. And I do that with a project called the future food city. I told a little bit about it before and I want to work together with, with people like you and other who are interested and to set a series of experiences, which we will showcase at exhibitions at schools. To get connected with the audience and invite the audience to come and live in that future food city, a digital city where they become citizens of the future of a better world. If that works out in the coming years, then then will be providing like a moonshot for for human for humanity. That's where one we want to go, not a moon, not a moonshot for one company, or for for Jasper for Mark, but a new shot for all of us, created by all of us that's what my vision will be for the future of a better world and also for my, for myself as a person I've accomplished my dream I think if I can make that happening that that would be really cool. And then, if I can also show it in a museum. Because that's that that was my, the reason why I started creative chef studio show foods and bring it to the museum. Then I'm very happy. Sometimes you have to start in a museum or designed or an experience a display a gallery somehow so that people can visualize that whether it's digital online or offline so they can first say, What does that look like what you know and some of the books you know Dixon is one of the first people to do this, the vertical garden concept to using a sky rise buildings to as food, food buildings and growing your food and vertically and these buildings. And I think you need to sometimes first start creative designed artwork in 3D and digital or in museums and galleries things so that people can envision that because of what we see on TV there's a lot of dystopian what we see in media is a lot very dystopian it doesn't show us a bright optimistic future how the future would work and how it could work and so, because we don't have that vision. We also have a little bit of trouble creating architecture engineering designing moving forward to achieve that because we don't have a lot of visualization whereas when you and I kind of come from the sci fi star track and those things where we saw these crazy things of the future, but we could kind of engineer and try to achieve most of those 3D printing and technologies and things to reach that most of those have come in pretty come pretty far along but there's not a lot of things currently right now that show us what possibly that better sustainable future would look like or that future food city. I'm excited to work with you on it matter of fact tomorrow we have a little meeting about it so I'm excited to work and hear more and see how we can move forward with this I think you're on on the right track for sure and excited you bet I'm excited to change the world with you on that and I think you're a lot of other people are really in alignment with you as well. There's this big thing and I don't know if you want to get into it or not or if you've put a lot of thought into it. We touched briefly on this human condition that you know there's there's thousands of people and they're kind of seem to be moving in the same direction for a better planet. But they're all kind of doing their own thing they're doing their project here and their project there, or, especially around climate activism there's a lot of people doing climate activism, but they're not really collaborating it's their project it's their thing and they're almost fighting against each other, I mean, you know, and, and it's this human condition why are, why are we fighting against each other, why are we not collaborating and being creative together and cooperating together instead it's my project my way the highway type of a deal. Now, what are your thoughts on, and I break it down to what are your thoughts on this neo liberalism this neo Darwinism, natural selection, only the strong survive survival of the fittest severe competition. Everybody else just, you know, it's all about me and it's the core. What you're saying it's, it's exactly the main problem of humankind humanity. It's what I'm doing at this moment, you give me a stage to tell me something about that about a project I came up with the future food city. I want people to know about it, and I take the stage and I tell everybody it's the best idea and you should participate. And then in the end I earn a little bit of money with it. And when somebody else else comes with an idea, then then it becomes a threat. And that's exactly the essence of the problem we are facing the threat of not being given a stage as a person, because everybody thinks he or she has a good idea. In fact, we all have good ideas but the ones that shout a lot like me at this moment. They come a little bit above other opinions and then, yeah, some people follow that idea or some people say, I don't like it. But that's exactly the points. I think, and that's to redirect it to the future food city. That's the idea behind it, because when you create something where everybody can shout out and tell about their good idea, but when it's in a good frame. We are having progress, but you are telling me it's also money that's making it difficult. Because you talk about those social development goals, I talk about future food, and I do that because it gives me a good feeling. I'm doing something good, and I earn money with it. But when there are a lot of people doing what I do, I earn less money. So it's really interesting for people to come up with new ideas new direction because of the money money system. Maybe we should. Yeah, that's a big problem. And I don't know, I don't know what the, what the exact answer is, maybe we should stop having money. Yeah, decentralized new system, new economic model one that is much different than we're used to. It's kind of, it's not a extractive economy it's not a capitalistic economy it's a one that works for everyone and it's more in line with ecological economics and decentralized and secure it's a trustless system. That leads me to my next question you've kind of already answered it before but I want to frame it in a different way to see if you can succinctly kind of tell us your version of your thing, I appreciate you going into the future food and in your visions of that. But what does a world that works for everyone look like for you. I think it's not possible. Maybe when humanity isn't there anymore. But okay, that's a that's a that's a bad one maybe now it's a it's a hard one. A rule that works for everybody. Well I think we can, we can make it better in a way that we are more, but we were more in balance with the world and everybody has good education. We have less people on planet. We grow our own foods. We're not busy with with with money. We respect each other. We see each other also and we respect the people with disabilities. We hear each other we learn in schools, not only to do math and to learn to read but we also learn to to get along with each other, we learn about food how to grow your food, maybe a little bit go back to the older ways of doing stuff, maybe to the many useful times. But then on a tech level, I think that's a that's a better way of doing things. I think it's interesting because, you know, the way you start out you say, I'm not sure it's possible right. Yeah, that that's that's this neo Darwinism that's that neoliberalism it's severe competition natural selection survival of the fittest. It's a strong survive and it's this this that we're against each other but we we we started out our conversation we're all on the same spaceship earth we're all earthlings. We're all crew members there's no passengers. We're all homo sapiens. There's nobody dropped off here from the spaceship Netherlands or spaceship Germany or spaceship USA. We're all dropped off here through stardust star stuff we crawled out of the primordial soup elements of basic elements of life from this earth, and all of a sudden we're now fighting against each other there. We're dispelled at disproven neoliberalism neo Darwinism it doesn't fucking exist I'm sorry it's formed three times on this podcast so far, but it just doesn't exist. What we've learned through science through math through through history of our planet is that our earth was formed through these basic elements and we crawled out of this primordial soup through bacteria through micro organisms. The only way we went from a single celled organism to a nucleated cell organism and involved into the human beings that we are now is through cooperation collaboration that those things work in harmony ones waste is another one's food and vice versa this whole symbiosis of how life in our earth really works is so important to understand, but yet we have this human connect condition that divides us from one another. I mean, there's some wonderful things like Carl Sagan said that if someone were to visit from outer space from another planet, and look at the earth they say why are we all fighting against each other, aren't you all the same species all brothers and sisters distant why are you fighting against each other and I really strongly and optimistic, and I guess maybe in some regards naive, but I believe there is a way for the entire world to work with each other that there is a plan and a way for for us all to have a system that is for everyone that no one is poor or hungry or different. I agree, but that there's also something like as a human kind also find it hard to do stuff. If there is no nothing to fight for you know what I mean I always have this is the things I remember those are the problems that I solved. So I'm proud if I if I solve the problem. So, as human beings we need so called problems to to to feel alive to to get stuff stuff done. So, I believe I understand what you're saying but we need as humanity to work together, not fight each other. And maybe the problem we have to fight for is this problem climate change. Maybe it's, it actually is a good thing in Darwinistic thinking that it unites us people to work on it. We have a few problems left that that that there's money and not we cannot reach everybody and some people aren't busy with the topic of we were talking about a couple of minutes. Or they learn other stuff. Maybe that's the key when we start to have a common educational system. Every kid in the world learns the same stuff. And from from from a from a from a perspective that is a building perspective to get connected with earth. Again, maybe that's a good, a good way of seeing things when when a kid in China learns about to grow food and trading with his neighbors that when he comes to Germany or the United States, everybody understands him or her. And then you get, yeah, then then we know what we should do but we need a problem. I think there are always be problems or things that we can solve. I just don't believe that they need to be against each other. Yeah, we need to limit other people's growth or or development. The thing that you mentioned I see as I really think about the future quite a lot I think about how what solutions and innovations and and I would love to see something, whether it's formulated as learning or education or development for humanity to to move forward as this real time update of collective intelligence and what I mean by that is that maybe it's once a day maybe it's once a week that we take the collective intelligence or learning from humanity. And everyone receives that we're all have that I mean right now we get it through books and movies and reading and and and you know media and different places we get up from word of mouth you and I speaking you know back. I was growing up you know these firesides I was with my grandparents or my my parents would be camping or be around these fireside type of chats where tell stories and kind of what happened in the past and you get this this on the ground local collective intelligence and indigenous wisdoms that you could apply and adds to your collective intelligence for for further right now we're got a lot of fake news a lot of misinformation and we're repeating a lot of the same make mistakes we made back in the 30s and made back in the 30s and made back in history, we're not learning we're not getting better we're not being more efficient we're not doing with these problems. I mean in 2000 2000. There was Al Gore's problem with the dimple chat on the voting against George Bush Jr. And then again with the inauguration with the Oompa Oompa the orange guy that thank God he didn't win that we had another inaugurate another voting problem, you know, issues. What the fuck I mean, here's the force swear word I'm sorry guys I, I don't know I just get so how hard is it to figure out a voting thing and when you've experienced it before you know with something else. Are we gonna find we're going to just keep repeating those mistakes are we maybe. Maybe this era now is a big big problem for humanity. And it brings us together for a short moment of time in a good direction to solve this problem. Humanity will be a little bit better off with with with with the good climate and we are safe and we start to grow our foods differently, but then you went humanity needs a new problem. So there will be always will be problems to solve. Yeah, so yeah. I think we can solve them faster and that with collective intelligence, but enough of my tangents this was really about you and I have three last questions for you. They're selfish they're for my audience I want my listeners to hear this message these messages from you. If there was one message you could depart to my listeners that has the as a sustainable takeaway that has the power to change their lives. What would that be your message. Believe in a better world. And communicate it. If you do that, then you start to be behave differently. And so so spread the world, the word believe in a better world. Tell them tell to your neighbors to get your kids around it. Just communicate. Maybe a simple one but I think that's the first step we need to do starts communicating a positive, hopeful future and communicate it to everybody. You might have already answered this but what should young innovators in your field be thinking about if they're looking for ways to make real impact so I guess that's creatives and artists and chefs and people who kind of like and do the same things that you're doing, but they want to make a real impact they want to move forward what should they be thinking about. They shouldn't be thinking thinking about money. They should be thinking about getting getting their innovative projects based upon more and more local vision so look around your look around you not not not think about how to sell it overseas everywhere you start small and make it really good. And see what value it has to offer, not only the money value but the value for for planet Earth. So maybe they should define what value is for their companies and say okay. I'm having a bank account. One is for the money to make it happen. And the other one is a bank account account with for progress for better worlds, something like that I think that that's the most important thing they should have in their purpose of a company. I love it. I love it. Yeah, I had a doctor professor Mohammed Eunice from Grameen Bank and a world of three zeros on the podcast and he said very similar thing he said, you know it should really be about social business social progress and how can we make the world a better place better than we found it and has nothing to do with money, but the money tends to come the rewards and benefits tend to come there throughout history we've seen numerous people out there who have had no incentive for money, but they're gone down in our history books for having big impacts on our world and you know whether it's Mother Teresa or whether it's Gandhi, and many many many others you know I don't. Yeah, creatives. Everybody remembers who Mozart is, but nobody remembers who was the bank CEO of the bank in that the time you know, exactly. So, yeah, and then the last question is really what have you experienced or learned in your professional journey so far that you would have loved to know from the start. It would be that I came more in contact with the idea that people have a different perception on things. When you're young you think your way is the way everybody thinks. I learned to learn that lesson a little bit earlier because if I understand that I started much earlier with designing my projects the way I'm doing it now. I used to tell the story. I wanted to tell and I wanted to be the best, and I wanted to be the smartest etc so I struggled. I would have known earlier that everybody has their own perception, their own look at things, then I would have used that information to include other people's stories and use my own story to communicate a topic. Yeah, work together more. I think if I knew that more earlier in my life. Then I would be, but yeah, on the other hand, I learned a lot also. Great. Jasper, my creative friend and creative chef. Thank you for letting us inside of your ideas today. And it's been wonderful to have you on the podcast and hope to see you live in person very soon and we'll talk again tomorrow but thanks for being on the show. Mark, thank you. Keep it going. I will. Thank you. Talk to you later. Bye bye.