 Hello, I'm Leigh Ann George, Coordinator of the Spec Survey Program at the Association of Research Libraries, and I'd like to thank you all for joining us for this Spec Survey Webcast. Today, we'll hear about the results of the survey on accessibility and universal design. These results have been published in Spec Kit 358, which is freely available at publications.arl.org. Before we begin, there are just a few announcements. First, everyone but the presenters has been muted to cut down on background noise, so if you are part of a group today, feel free to speak among yourselves. We do want you to join the conversation, though, by typing questions in the chat box in the lower left corner of your screen. At the end of the presentation, I'll read the questions aloud and then the presenters will answer them. This webcast is being recorded, and we will send registrants the slides and a link to the recording in about a week. Now, let me introduce our presenters from Boston College. Margaret Cohen is Head Librarian, Educational Initiatives and Research Services. And Carly Spina is Head Librarian for Assessment and Outreach. Just this hashtag you see in the lower right corner of your screen, ARL Spec Kit 358, to continue the conversation with us on Twitter. And now, let me turn the presentation over to Margaret. Hi, everybody, and welcome. Carly and I are both very happy to be here and present what we found out by doing our Spec Kit. The Spec Kit we did on accessibility and universal design was really an update from the Spec Kit 321 that was done in December of 2010, where they were looking at services for users with disabilities. And we know that there's continuing importance in this area. Recent data indicates that at least 20% of the adult population would have an accessibility issue and at least 11% of unsgraduates coming. So we know there's a growing number of students and staff. And really, there's a changing landscape for the legal requirements. So we thought it would be appropriate to do something eight years after the previous work had been done. We also know that there's new research on diverse learning and the changing landscape and thinking about how all libraries are meeting the needs of users and staff and what those best practices are. So we, in addition to accessibility, decided to also include the universal design component as well and ask some questions on that. While we were thinking about designing the survey and we were doing it, we used the previous Spec Kit as kind of a template to think of some of the questions and were asked before. But we also wanted to make sure that we include the definitions. And so at the beginning of the survey that you might have taken, we wanted to see and clearly lay out what we were defining as accessibility standards. And so we did any legal standard in your jurisdiction, such as the Americans with Disabilities Act and our policy set forth by your parent institution. So we used that kind of as the standard. And then we also, for assisted technology, when we asked questions about that, we defined that as any item, piece of equipment, or product system, whether required commercially, off the shelf, modified or customized that is used to increase, maintain, or improve the functional capabilities of individuals with disabilities. And so we were able to take that from the Sifted Technology Act of 1998 and use that as a definition. And lastly, we also defined universal design. And that came from the Center of Excellence in Universal Design. It is the design and composition of an environment so that it can be accessed, understood, and used to the great extent possible by all people regardless of their age, size, ability, or disability. So we started off by making those definitions. And then lastly, I should say, we added in the National Center on Universal Design for Learning and the definition as being when you add the piece for learning as a set of principles for curriculum development that give all individuals equal opportunities to learn. So we added those questions and we wanted to make sure that we asked and looked at all spaces and services to make a more inclusive environment for all. And so for the survey demographics, we surveyed all 125 institutions. We had 67 respondents, which came out to be a 54% response rate. And you can see the survey ran from January 2nd to February 6th. We also did note, and I didn't put this on a slide, but we also did note that we used the term first when we wrote the survey that we used the term persons with disabilities throughout the survey rather than disabled person in order to be consistent with previous ARL, the ARL Web Accessibility Toolkit. And so we wanted to define that as well. So one of the areas we looked at would be staff assistance. And so we asked the respondents to indicate which of the following services your library staff provides for users with disabilities. And so you can see that we certainly, libraries will retrieve books and materials from the stacks, search the catalog, that they would help with access to the facility, study rooms, rest rooms. They would copy, scan, and print materials. And you can see the percentages to the right on that slide. And they would demonstrate the use of specific technology. Where there was less, of course, assistance was anybody that brought in personal equipment for use in the library. What was interesting also about this question was that we did find that almost all library patrons would approach a service desk and ask for assistance, or they would make a request through another campus office. And so that became important when we thought about what some of the recommendations might be for, specifically for training, and making sure the folks at service desk are trained properly. And then we also asked about accommodations for library staff, and what are people looking for, and what would be accommodations that we would provide. And so, of course, adjustable furniture, where 88, it was 58 respondents, or 88%. And then for technology and hardware, it came out to be about 76%. Flexible schedules, that came out as if people asked for it, that would most likely create one if it was needed. Office space and lighting, or a little bit less accommodations for library staff. I think less frequently asked for, although noted in some of the comments, would be lactation space, sign language interpreters, and then ergonomic support, such as foot rest or wrist support, or power-assisted doors, were mentioned, but not mentioned enough to give it a percentage, but in the comments section. One of the questions that we did ask, one we were very interested in, is when you're doing recruiting and when you're doing interviewing, how do you, what is asked for, what do you help with there? Here we found that typically, when people are doing recruiting and interview, they rely on the candidates to request something. And I think that there's an opportunity here to think about how we could be more proactive on that. But what some of the things that people might ask our recruits might ask for would be sign language interpreters. Someone mentioned holding events in accessible spaces, so making sure that when you interview somebody, the space is actually accessible. Providing interview questions in advance, that came up. Providing dietary restrictions, arranging for transportation, even if you're giving a tour around campus, making sure that you may want to ask about that. What was interesting, there was a comment. We net have never had requests for accommodations, and that was the part where we thought perhaps being a little bit more proactive. And we largely rely on self-disclosure. All came up in some of the comments. And there was one quote that we really liked, and that was, we're not aware of fulfilling any accommodations during a recruiting process, so we would be happy to do so, which raises the question of how we communicate our willingness to do this. So thank you for making us consider this. And I think that we felt that that would be really rather than waiting for the candidate to inform us, maybe being a bit more proactive in finding out, you know, where the following accommodations we can make, and being more proactive in that regard. So that's kind of the beginning of some of the things in the survey. I'm going to turn it over to Carly now. We're going to go on with some of the other things that we found out. All right. So we next looked at library facilities, and we particularly were interested in what we found out about where assisted technology is available. As we all know, many patrons have very strong feelings about where they prefer to work and what sort of work environment they might like, and certain spaces in our library might get busier than others. So it was interesting to see where it was that were offering these assisted technologies for people who might need them. We found that just under a majority, so about 44, I believe, was percent of people said that they offered them a general workstation, but it was significantly lower for other types of spaces. So about 30% offered it in quiet and separate spaces, which means that it all had a lot of libraries. People with disabilities don't have the opportunity to self-select as wanting to work in a quiet space. Even lower than that, just over 20% was single person spaces. So we found that really, if you wanted that more private or quiet space, many facilities didn't offer that if you also needed specialized assisted technologies. And finally, we found that only 10% of respondents offered specialized carols that would include assisted technologies. So it's interesting when we think about whether or not we're providing accessible spaces. I think a lot of times we figure, well, we have these tools available, but it's important to also take a step back and think about, well, where do we have them available and how does this compare to where we have other workstations and how does this compare to the different types of environments that a person might want to use? Then we sort of go a little deeper into the technology side of things to look at what software hardware and other technologies libraries are offering. And this was something that was really interesting to compare to some other surveys that have been done, both the previous spec kit and also other organizations. And we started with text magnification. And we found that the two very dominant players in this field are Adobe Acrobat and Zoom Text with some institutions even offering both at seams. And this is an important, I think, example of knowing what tools that you might have for other purposes offer useful features for accessibility, since Adobe Acrobat is something many libraries have for other users, may not have or identify themselves as having disabilities, but knowing that you can also use assisted technologies and important things to keep in mind. And then we looked at what screen reader technology libraries were offering. And we found that JAWS remains the dominant offering. Now, this is particularly interesting if you follow screen readers because there has been a lot of development in this area. For example, VoiceOver is offered on all Apple and iOS devices natively. So that's one that's starting to become more popular, particularly with people who want to be able to use it on their mobile device and then continue over. NVDA is a tool that is very well developed and is completely free, but maybe doesn't have quite the market share in part because people don't know about it. But it was interesting to me to see that only about 10% of respondents were using NVDA given the fact that it is something that you can freely install. It's open source, but it's well enough developed that it doesn't require that much support. So if I had to make a prediction on getting it over time, this would continue to change with JAWS being less dominant. And I have included a slide here sort of to back up that theory. This is a comparison to the results for the 2017 survey of screen reader users that WebAIM does. They do one every few years and it's always a fascinating insight. So if you work in this area, I would recommend looking at it. It's not entirely people with disabilities who respond. They also survey people who don't identify as having a disability, but work in the accessibility field and therefore use screen readers professionally often for testing purposes. So that is maybe a little bit of a limitation in knowing how our patrons with disabilities might look at this. But as you can see here, JAWS is still dominant. I've seen most surveys that I've seen. But NVDA and VoiceOver are significantly ahead of ZoomText. And going back to the previous slide for a moment, you'll see that narrator and read please aren't even really appearing in the survey. And ZoomText is only with a small percentage of users. So it's something to keep in mind if you are creating or updating workspaces and you're wondering what sorts of screen readers you might want to invest time and money in. It's good to know that there are these options that are less expensive that you might be able to do training and outreach around if you can't afford to put JAWS on every device. And then we look at scanning systems. This information was also interesting to me because the dominant one here, like quite a lot actually, was well more than double either of the others, is Kurzweil. And it was interesting to me that people aren't relying as much on OCR on the patron-facing side of their scanning system. And then we just wanted to highlight some of the information that we got about coordinating and publicizing services. So over 70% of the libraries that responded coordinate services with an ADA officer or coordinator somewhere on their campus. So this is something where the vast majority of libraries are building partnerships with experts elsewhere on campus. But even given that, about half of the libraries that responded have a library coordinator or liaison or even a dedicated staff member to assist users and coordinate services. And we didn't want to read you all the different job titles of the people who do this work, but if you refer back to the spec kit that is available on the website or in print, it has a wealth of information if you're interested in learning more about how other libraries present this information. Because a lot of libraries submitted the job title or even descriptions about these people. And I think that this is something where we saw a fair amount of growth over time. This is a role that is becoming more and more popular, particularly at larger institutions. But as the number of patrons and disabilities increased and as there's more focus on this due to legal requirements and just needs of the community, there really has been an increase in the amount of staffing in this area as well. But when it comes to the actual legal matters and interpreting the law, 88% of libraries reported that that would be done by someone in a central campus office, either an ADA officer or the disability coordinator. So while a lot of libraries are seeking to hire someone who can help actually make things accessible and publicize that information, they aren't necessarily taking on the legal piece of it. So it's not something where you need to feel like, oh, if we hire someone, then we're going to be on the hook to make these legal determinations. At most campuses, it's standard for that to go through a centralized piece of the campus or institution. And finally, there was a big piece about publicity because over 90% advertised services on the library website or through campus offices that support people with disabilities. And we thought this was interesting for a couple of reasons. First of all, we thought it was significant that people are partnering across campus on this work, and that makes a lot of sense to do outreach to people who might not realize what the library can offer them despite their disability. But it was also something to keep in mind when you say that you offer information on your website, we'll be looking in a few minutes, and there's a lot more information in the spec kit about web accessibility. But that definitely brings up questions about, well, are you going to be able to be assured that people have access to this publicity if you have issues with accessibility on your library website or other online... your other online appearance. Okay, so then we talked about training for those who are service providers. How do staff know what they should be doing, how these tools work, those sorts of things. By far, the number one approach to this is webinar attendance. So a lot of libraries are investing in having staff attend webinars, and they want to make sure that they get the training through these sort of short-term webinar-style trainings rather than larger training sessions. Some staff also attend conferences specifically related to accessibility or just general library conferences that include an accessibility element. Some do offer hands-on training that's run by somebody within the library. And for assistant devices and technology, most rely on the manuals, which is also interesting since it has a whole other piece about how you're going to keep track of that information and make sure that it's available when a question comes if a question is going to come in extremely infrequently. And then, of course, an important question for libraries that are trying to figure out how to best serve patrons with disabilities and staff with disabilities is how are they going to be able to fund this? And so we wanted to see sort of where most people are getting their funding. So on this chart, we've broken it down for software and hardware where this comes from. And what we found is that most comes from the library operating budget with another significant chunk coming from library IT. But a significant portion, particularly for software, does come from Central ADA compliance offices or the Central IT. So it seems as though software is more generally possible to fund through a central organization whereas hardware generally falls to the library itself. And then we looked at, as I've foreshadowed before, accessibility of a library's online presence and how often do people check that. And what we found was that for really all of the different types of online presence that you might have, the vast majority of libraries are checking only sporadically. With a not insignificant number, never checking anything other than their library website. So this is something to think about, I think particularly in connection with that piece we said more about how you're publicizing what you have. If you're not confident of the accessibility of the various elements of your online presence, it's important to think about how you might do outreach and how you might reach patrons who might have difficulty using those. I think that this also really showed some areas where we still have some blind spots about checking our accessibility. We saw that many libraries only sporadically check whether or not video captions are available, which is something that's been a lot in the news in the last few years for libraries and higher ed institutions and really all public institutions, public-facing institutions, not even just government-funded. And we're seeing that not many are checking the library's social media presence, for example, which is an important outreach tool and an important way to connect with patrons for a lot of institutions. And we also found that many aren't necessarily checking handouts and presentations that they're creating to make sure that those are also accessible. And that can be really important, especially if you post those online after the fact. That's a way for a student to interact with your materials to attend your presentation if they weren't able to attend at the time. And that's something that we really aren't doing that much work it looks like to make sure that those are accessible. And so then I just wanted to briefly start talking about universal design, which Margaret defined earlier. So this is really an area that's been growing in importance in a lot of different fields for the last several decades, and it's really sort of emerged in libraries. In the last five or so years, I would say, as an area of focus, an area of great deal of interest, particularly as people are doing for universal design less on a learning side, I think, when people are doing redesigns of spaces. And we found that 55% of respondents indicated that their staff had received training in universal design and universal design for learning principles such as going to conferences, classes, symposia, those sorts of things. But nevertheless, considering universal design principles during projects remains inconsistent. And universal design for learning is not common in library instructional settings. While it might be something that people think about when they're doing architectural redesigns, it's not necessarily something that they're focused on when they're designing their instructional materials and curricula. And respondents said that they only sometimes incorporate these principles into their daily work. So it seems that while it has been emerging, it's not necessarily something where it's completely reached the point where it's universally used at libraries. We did find that video tutorials was where it was most often incorporated, but less so in the in-person training sessions. And then we wanted to just end by talking a little bit about some best practices that we felt emerged from, not just the numbers that we pulled, but also a lot of the comments that people submitted to us. So I'm going to pass over to Margaret for a few of those. Thanks, Carly. So we know that because the primary contact for a user when they come in the library is the service desk, we know that there needs to be good service desk training for both staff and for students. On everything related to anything from book retrieval to scanning, to copying, to anything that a patron might ask for, any kind of service, any kind of resource. And there's probably a lot more we can do in that area for training our own staff to understand that and to understand that they are the primary contact when a patron comes into the library. We also found, as a best practice, would be to develop strong relationships across campus and to really collaborate often. And that it tends to be to cross all the areas on a campus, and if you can have those relationships and those collaborations, that it really makes you're able to really meet some more of the needs for accessibility. Carly mentioned the website and the library website and the fact that it's not often checked for accessibility. This became really important when we looked at how services are advertised because in libraries we tend to put everything up on our webpage and we advertise there. But we also know if the library website is inaccessible or not being checked often that we're relying on that to advertise our services. And so we know that we would probably want to think a little bit more broadly and expand where we advertise services to perhaps social media, using displays, using newsletters. We also found that a lot don't talk about the services that the library has in orientation, both in undergraduate and graduate student orientation, but we could be a lot better off and we could do a lot better in mentioning during the orientation. And Carly also mentioned thinking about handouts. When you do a handout or you post a handout, making sure that that is accessible as well. And then when recruiting candidates, consider what you provide the candidates. And so consider the way you've always done it and maybe think a little bit differently and would you provide the questions ahead of time? Would that help a candidate? Would you talk about transportation options? Do you need anything we would like to give you a tour? Are there things that you might need for that? Asking about dietary restrictions when you're setting up the day for a candidate to come in. And I think we found that, someone might have mentioned this in one of their comments, that when you do that, it says to the candidate, we care about accessibility and it's important to us. And that just simply making a few changes in how you do things really does send a message. Okay, and then I'm going to talk about just the last few best practices we identified. I mentioned this before, but try to think about how you can offer a mix of spaces and or flexible spaces, including both opportunities for individual and group study that are accessible. What we found from the responses I mentioned was that a lot of libraries have all of their accessible technology in a single type of space and that might impede opportunities for collaboration. Are your group study rooms accessible, for example? And also, it might mean that people have to study in an environment that doesn't work best for them. A patron with a disability should just as much be able to choose to study in a quiet area or a private area as can other patrons. Be proactive and consider what you're not doing and think about how you can identify and respond to unmet needs. I think a lot of times it seemed as though we're waiting to respond to requests, whether that was a patron walking up to a desk or a job candidate saying, I need this. What we would recommend is instead trying to be proactive and trying to add to your checklist of how you do things, thinking about accessibility and building that into the initial process rather than simply saying, oh, now I see a problem and I'm going to try to go back and retroactively fix it, which is always going to be more difficult and often more expensive. And consider what assistive technologies and other tools and devices you can lend. And this can be helpful to a lot of different patrons, not even people with disabilities necessarily. For example, one respondent's comment that struck both of us is that they lend out lights and so that if somebody has low vision and needs more light. And that seems great, but it also seems like something that if students knew about it, they might well check them out or dimly lit area, even if they didn't have a disability and didn't identify somebody who was disabled. So that's something to just consider about, what are the little things that you can loan out that might really help your patrons in a lot of different ways. And so that's the end of our prepared remarks. And we wanted to just throw it open now for questions and discussion to see if anybody had anything they wanted to hear more about. Thank you, Carly and Margaret. And let me reiterate, we do welcome your questions. So enter the conversation by typing those questions in the chat box in the lower left corner of your screen. And while you are getting organized to send us your questions, I'll start with one here. So what did you find most interesting in the results, maybe the most surprising compared to the previous survey on disability services? I think, this is Margaret, I think that, well, one of the things, I don't know, an interesting, probably not surprising would be kind of that importance of staff training. And we often think in our life, where we are, we have both a mixture of staff and students working at any particular service point. And just an understanding of both legal requirements and understanding of services and understanding of what we have. And I think that that importance can't be stressed enough. And it's very easy in time, you hire a student and they come and they go, but really that importance of proactively in going out and making sure that they're trained and have a really good understanding. I think that was one thing for me. The other thing for me that struck me as so simple is making sure during orientation that we mentioned accessibility or making sure what some of the services are that we offer. We mentioned so many things during undergraduate orientation and just making sure that we do that consistently. And again, I think part of that is just to send the message. This is what we have. We care about this issue and reach out and if you know we're there and there are things that we do have that can help. And Quisis, I see we are getting some other questions. For me, I think I was interested in the recruiting piece of it because we talk a lot about wanting a diverse population to work in libraries and wanting to increase diversity in hiring. And so I find it interesting to hear what other libraries are doing and to think about how we can change the hiring process to be more accessible built in so that you're not expecting someone to feel comfortable saying it would be difficult for me to climb all these stairs on a campus tour. But instead for everyone whether they have a visible disability or not, you're simply offering seamlessly whether we can use the elevator or you're making sure that the presentation is given on an accessible stage or something like that so that we can make it more accessible and less of putting the burden on someone who's already nervous about getting a job and interviewing it feels like they have to be the perfect candidate so they don't feel like they have to then ask for accommodation. So I think some questions are here. So I think maybe we can throw it open to those. Yes, Eric has sort of a follow-up to what Margaret was saying. He asks, does anyone have suggested resources for helping students with training specifically with software like JAWS or ZoomText? I guess there are two ways I can see this. I'm not sure if you're referring to students with disabilities who are using these or if you're referring to student workers who might get questions at a service point. So a little bit to each I guess. Both of which are pretty much the same. These tools have pretty good of student workers. Okay, so I would say lean on the documentation that they have online. Usually they have pretty good documentation even if you don't necessarily see it on their website. Check WebAIM which we referenced earlier in the presentation it's W-E-B-A-I-M and that's something that really has a lot, it's a company that puts out a lot of accessibility information and they have training modules and additional documentation for a lot of these. And then also it's activating it's going to be something that you forget if you don't use it for a while. So make sure that it's available on one of the staff computers in a space and give people time to try it out. Try to do a demo of it if you ever have an opportunity to work with a patron as a disability to do any testing like of your website. Ask them if they're okay with recording that so people can watch the video and see it in action. And this is another good place to try to partner on campus. There might be other groups on campus that offer JAWS training or support that might be able to also help with that as well. Sarah had a follow-up question on Carly's comments for the recruiters, recruitees. She's interested in the idea of sharing questions before the interview. But how would you handle that? Sure. Here on our campus we oftentimes have a list of questions that we're going to, specifically if we're doing like a phone interview. So we oftentimes would have a list of questions that we were going to ask somebody and if it was a committee each person would ask the same question to the three different candidates. So I think when you think about sharing the questions before I think it's just being consistent in sending here are the questions that we would like to ask. And so if you're going sharing it consistently with everybody in a timeframe like three days before you're going to telephone interview them or three days before they come to campus. I don't think that it cuts down on follow-up questions that you might have but I think it levels the playing field and gives people an idea for their own learning when we think about universal design being able to have those questions ahead of time and do some kind of preparation or being able to read them ahead of time. Peter has a question. If you have any thoughts on how libraries and their parent institutions can collaborate on accessibility more broadly so that we're not all doing this on our own? Sure. Well, a quick plug for an ARL toolkit. They have an accessibility toolkit that is a great example of a bunch of people coming together and working on creating a resource so that everyone doesn't have to reinvent the wheel and it's a really useful resource. Beyond that, I don't know if there's an active group right now that still works on that so I can't speak to that but if you're looking for more ongoing work I would say there are two different approaches you can take either. If you're a member of a professional organization you might look and see if they have divisions that are related to this. So, for example, there are opportunities within, I know for FACTS, DLF, and ALA and many of the ALA subdivisions to work on accessibility efforts that are meant to benefit libraries generally. A lot of consortiums also have interest groups for these sorts of things or you could start one. And I think also you can look locally because these are issues that hit a lot of organizations beyond just libraries. So there are often in local areas need-up groups and interest groups for organizations that or people who are working on accessibility issues and that can also be a resource if you're not as involved in library professional organization. And finally, if you're online on a lot of different services and you follow the A11Y hashtag it can be a great resource. So it's just hashtag and then the letter A and then numeral one, numeral one, Y. And that's an accessibility hashtag that's used across a lot of different places and can be a good starting point if you want to share questions with people or find out what's going on in you and the world. Melinda has a question about making equipment available. She says, when you offer patron services that might appeal to any patron, such as low light areas or noise cancellation headphones, how can you manage these to make sure that people with disabilities actually have access to them? One of the things we do where I'm in a curriculum library and we mend out iPads that have voice stream and the noise canceling headphones and things like that. One of the things we've done is we've set up different circulation policies. So we might have six of something and four of them can circulate. Two are kept in course reserve and can only stay within the library. So we've kind of tried to set up different policies to try to make sure that we have it available when somebody comes in. And so you may want to think about what would that look like if you had some that were allowed to be checked out for longer or shorter or you kept one specifically reserved for someone that was accommodation eligible. So you might want to think about doing something like that. But to Carly's point when she was talking about the folks that were lending out the lights, I mean they're very well could be somebody that doesn't have a disability that just wants to borrow that because they like that part of the library and just need more light. So I think making sure that for them they have the opportunity to check it out as well with somebody else. Another piece of that is that you might be able to give patrons who have gone through a process to be recognized as someone with a disability. Often that would be to do a campus office to have a note in their account that would give them a separate loan period for it as well. So they might be able to override the fact that it's a course reserve and take it with them because of what they have on their account. Or they might be able to check things out for much, much longer than somebody else and that's the way to make sure they have consistent access to what they need. Julia has a comment here more than a question that you might respond to. She writes on our campus, yes, on our campus we have an active discussion about the challenges that inaccessible PDFs post to students who are visually impaired or blind. In my experience, this is the primary format exchange during interlibrary loan and they're also a popular choice for electronic articles from databases and reserves. We're pursuing training to make PDFs accessible and to offer formats where possible and I believe the discussion of this format could benefit other libraries as well. Yes, PDFs can be a huge problem as much as they are useful for a lot of people they can cause a lot of accessibility issues. In terms of the reserves piece, I always advise people to try to make it their policy to first see if there's a way that they can link to the material. This is beneficial for a lot of reasons even beyond accessibility. You need to sort of sell it to your institution. It's better for copyright purposes. It's better for assessment purposes. You can track all those times somebody uses it and get a better sense of usage of databases. But finally, it's better for accessibility because a lot of databases now, not all to be sure, but a lot do have accessibility built into the database. So if you can link directly to the database that can be better than just downloading a PDF. To your point about trying to learn how to make PDFs more accessible, it can be tricky but there are a lot of tools out there for it and a lot of them now are included right within Adobe Acrobat and if you're interested in more information on that, I did a webinar a while ago for the Library Publishing Coalition LPC I think that's their name on this topic. This was last December and they have that posted for free for anyone, even non-members on their website. So you could take a look at that and see some of the tools that are available for making PDFs more accessible. We have time for one more question and Winona has one about adaptive software. She's interested in your comparison of JAWS popularity in the libraries who answered this survey and that NVDA in the non-library environments and wonder if you know if this is because IT or network security or computer login protocols may prevent NVDA from being installed more broadly in libraries. And then wonder if you know guidelines or good practice resources for implementing assistive technologies in libraries? So taking the second question first about guidelines I don't know that there are many out there and I think that would be a place to collaborate with other groups on campus that can help you to interpret whatever the legal requirements of your jurisdiction might be as well as having a better sense of the needs of people on your specific campus. With respect to the adaptive software question I don't know how many data about why JAWS remains more dominant in libraries but if I had to guess I would say it's because JAWS was initially more dominant and it is still fairly dominant in the marketplace and so people installed it and now they just continue to update it and that's where their staff might also have a bit more experience. The problem is it's just so expensive that oftentimes that limits how many stations we're able to have that are accessible in libraries. So I'm not for sure advocating or getting rid of JAWS because it is still dominant in the marketplace but it is worth exploring how you can offer other solutions as well. And I think, for example, if you have any Mac stations you have voiceover. Patrons may just not know that you have voiceover and your staff may not know it. So some of it's just training and outreach to say, hey, if you need an accessible computer you can use any of our Mac computers. They all have voiceover. And then with respect to NVDA if budget is the real issue preventing you from offering the number of accessible workstations you want it's something to explore. I know that open-source software can be tricky from a security standpoint for some organizations but at this point it's pretty well established one so I think it might be worth exploring if you're really coming up to a budget crunch and that's preventing you from making your spaces more accessible. Well thank you Carly and Margaret and thank all of you for joining us today to discuss the results of the Accessibility and Universal Design Spec Survey and a reminder you will receive the slides and a link to the recording in about a week. Thank you.