 Welcome everyone this is great to be here so today We have to look here right because we don't see those lights. Okay, but you can see them. That's great So they are sorting out the keynote for tomorrow, so this is that has nothing to do with our session we want to talk today about Sociopathy and Particularly how it can be connected to Agile and we are focusing on how does it affect the hierarchy because hierarchies often are Recognized as being anti agile and So we want to show you a way how to work with an hierarchy also in an actual way my name is Utah X fine and I have worked a lot in the actual field my main focus is on tailing agile distributed agile and With that it seems to me that the more you scale the more the question arises What doesn't company has to provide in order to allow agile to flourish. So that's kind of where I'm coming from This is my buddy Have more the expertise Which seems to be a tool that agile deal with the leading between the traditional way corporations are run This is looking at seeing what we can do to add sociocracy into the mix, right and Just one more thing for our background. So as you see we have written quite a few books So John has written the book about sociocracy. That's the we the people book and then there are my books about scaling and distributed We are actually at the moment writing a book together Which is a quite a journey that we have started to take. Okay. So I guess that's good enough So so we are getting started. So that's on the one hand, excuse me The summary of the four basic principles of sociocracy, which also means it At least I think it's pretty simple It's not as complex as you might know Holacracy and maybe we do a check here who has heard of Sociocracy first Okay, who has heard about holacracy There are a few more but not so many more. Okay, that's good enough So these are the key principles, but they're at the same time also the agenda for our workshop. I Just might say that the Brian Robertson was a client of mine at one point and so Holacracy is derived from this Yeah, so sociocracy is Well, maybe the core of So if you want to look it up or look in the literature, so Okay We want to get started in that way that at your table you introduce yourself And the way we want to do this first of all you figure out Who is the person with the lowest birthday number and that person will? Facilitate so we are only looking at the birthday number. So if you your birthday is on Whatever what today like that's a March 7 then you have a higher number than somebody on June 1st for example, right? So it's only that they that count June 1st would win. Yeah, exactly June 1st would win so that's the person who facilitates and the Request of the facilitator is really only to ensure that Everyone has the possibility to speak and it attudes him or herself in a way like saying what's your name? what they are Organization you are working with and also quickly. What's your experience in terms of self? organization and decision-making in relation to Hierarchy because often hierarchies are in the way of self organization and decision-making But maybe they are not and so this is this is your task as a facilitator ensure that everyone so probably you go around Yes, the possibility to introduce him herself and we have one table. Did you pick a table? I think I'm going to see if this table would be willing to be guinea pigs Not in the middle of the room There is a Two people only maybe you join there and so I would I don't know maybe it's fine you can do a table of three the people who are back there would you be a table of three? Okay, so you are two joining this table here. I was which one Yeah, that's fine So at your table you don't need to look for the person with the lowest birthday number But by chance you have shown as your facilitator at your table, right? Okay for every other table look for the facilitator first who is the person with the lowest birthday number and you will have Seven minutes to complete the round so seven minutes only go. Yes, everybody. Okay Okay, the time is up Did everyone had a chance to introduce him herself? Yeah, okay, that's very good. So One thing that just happened was We made a decision and the decision we made was actually in two ways. The one way was Random decision it was random because he said like okay Who is the person with the lowest birthday number and by chance that was the person who facilitated, right? So it was random the other decision that you have seen here was the one here at this table Which was a very autocratic one John as your facilitator, right? No chance here So he won whatever winning means here. I don't know But so it was autocratic. So whatever what what other kinds of decision-making Possibilities come to your mind Actually, so what do you know or are aware of? What whatever two people Corporate corporate and I don't know if you can see this over there. I Guess we have to move it Autocratic and then there was somebody else saying something Democratic right democratic anything else On census if you look already what we are having here I guess you all have experienced with different with those different decision-making strategies in different settings and I guess the most extreme is between those two the autocratic which is Very fast in decision-making right, but very often. It's very slow in implementation because you don't have to buy in Very often not always and on the other hand the consensus which is very slow in decision-making But you do have the buy-in so the implementation is typically very fast So that's kind of like different extremes and if we look at the others well, maybe one about democratic because We well not all not the Americans anymore are living in that democracy. I'm sorry but well, I Would say most of us are living in a democracy so that the good thing is that first at least it sounds like Everyone has a voice, but then the other hand in the democracy the minority is at the end ignore so it's Kind of you feel like you have to say but often you don't so depending on The thing so there we want to actually now show you a different way of decision-making and the thing is called consent and So not consensus and we want to do this by using this table as an example and This table is now starting to elect a facilitator because your time is up I'm very sorry. I tell you you're you did didn't do a good job. So we need another one So that's what we are doing and I'm not sure. Do you want to have the slide? Maybe you oh It's already here. It's here. Right. Okay, so You are starting John and we are listening. I try to capture what we are seeing. Okay. Okay, so First of all the consent decision-making Means that You can live with the decision you have no paramount objection So that you're looking for acceptance not agreement This is the very you can have you can make a consent decision with your automobile It tells you it's withdrawing your consent when you suddenly feel it going bump bump bump and there's a tire flat It's not consensus decision. It says you don't go anymore We made a consent decision. I snuck it in already here I said does anybody have a problem with being the guinea pig table and there's no problem consent They didn't agree. They just said no problem with it and so we're going to use consent here and We're going to follow a methodology that allows some self-organization to happen and These are the steps up here First of all, we're going to review the role the term and the qualifications The role is to Facilitate a little tiny bit at the very end of the session The term is term limited. It's the end of this session today and the qualifications are you had to be here? not very heavy qualifications We also are looking for people who Perhaps can articulate well who have good judgment who Know how to to guide people in a way that they feel good about it So those are typically things you look for in a facilitator So we just did step one. I reviewed the the term role and qualifications step two Just to fill out a nomination form This is a nomination form. I just ripped it up from some paper. It's very easy to make them But we need one we have posted here. I Okay, I have Just I'm just showing that you don't even have to have posted you can just manufacture them very quickly So we went to the factory and we manufactured some So we have far more than we need you just need one so at this point Although you only know each other from just an opening round You still have a feel for who who you might like to have be the facilitator And you fill out the form by putting down your name and Then the word nominate and then the name of the person that you nominate you can nominate yourself You can nominate somebody else at the table Or you can pass Okay, so take a moment to fill that out actually it we really do it only at this table of as an example Yeah, yeah, but well, I don't know But we wouldn't wait for you right and thanks for checking I might have an objection And And you all right so as soon as everybody fills out their form they hand them to me Seen so far not sure if you you saw that so on the one hand they filled out the form right We so he reviewed what is the the row term qualification and then if they filled out the form Which is a blank piece of paper and now they handed it over to the facilitator so it's kind of It maybe feels first like applying Something because you have that all but it's not because you put your name on it Okay, nobody handed me a form that was folded up like this Although some people handed me kind of upside down so nobody can see we're used to secret ballots, but this is transparent So we'll find out what the secrets are now Did I try to capture what you've got here sure yeah So I'm going to go through each Each form here, and I'm going to Read the name of the person and the name that they nominated and ask them why the arguments are very important so helmet Hemhoot I The I have a lot of trouble with Indian names because there's so unfamiliar to me you nominated Mara Rondra Macaron Macaron. Okay, I can't even read the handwriting on the name. Okay, so why? Okay, so why did you nominate? Thank you Jatendra he cared for other people repeating it so And yet Sandra was the one you Yeah, right, right, that's good. Okay. Okay, I tend to a nominated Gokul Great, thank you Gokul nominated Because Because yeah That is because of his range of experience the same reason as mentioned before thank you and Rangar Ranganar Nominated Jatendra. Thank you, and I'm participating in this So I also nominated Jatendra Because he happened to be in here before anybody else and I got to shake his hand and talk with him a little bit And he seemed like a really cool guy. So that's why I nominated Jatendra Shrik Shrikisha Because He's Okay, okay, I just shortly so they all have filled in the forms I have nominated somebody they Provided a rationale my first question would be John did you nominate anyone? I did yes I nominated Jatendra So I think that's what we are missing because we have six five six so one more Okay, so we've built out the nomination form We've shared reasons and now we get to do a change round So I'm going to ask each one of you having heard the arguments do you want to change your nomination and If you do want to change then I'll ask why if you just say I Nominated so and so what I don't want to change. That's fine So let's start with you and who did you nominate? Okay, no change So I did I hear this correctly nobody changed my so the thing is sometimes at least that's what I experienced And I guess you too John is after people have given a rationale people Think differently and come up with a change. This didn't happen here, which is fine Right, so this is the same area and we still have that list Okay, so at this point typically the facilitator makes a proposal having listened to all the arguments You don't have to you can ask somebody else to make a proposal, but it seems to work best if the facilitator who's been Elected for their good judgment makes the proposal. They're not making the decision because we have to do a consent round but I'm going to get the consent round going and so I'm going to give the reasons for the proposal that I'm making and the reason I'm nominating to tendra for proposing to tendra because The reasons given worse that he seems to be very personable and knows about self-organization where some of the other Rationality for the Kendra is that you had a broad range of experience and that's not exactly focused on why you want the facilitator and So for that reason, I'm proposing to tendra and I'm now going to go in around And I'll go to tendra last. So do you have any objection to Jatendra? I don't you Jatendra Great Celebrate we made a decision so There were were some things so the thing that was for me at least that's the beginning very confusing because I learned in Facilitator school as a facilitator. I'm completely neutral and now as a circuses as well If you do an election you make a recommendation or suggestion that you put for a consent decision so it seems that this is not neutral anymore, however, it does help the process to move forward and It is always with a rationale. So it you're making that recommendation out of Specific rationale you are providing and John provided that rationale. So because of the experience of to tendra with self-organization That's the one thing then the next thing was asking the content round which is More or less what we A little bit what John talked a little bit about earlier, which was Look for acceptance not for agreement, which is maybe the most important thing by we are not looking for the best Decision ever on earth. We are looking for a decision that's helpful for us Which is good enough for now safe enough to try which is what John always Tells me which is kind of the guiding principle here And so if we would try to find out who is really at that table the absolute best facilitator Probably we would discuss that endlessly because we only know after the fact and this is true for a lot of decisions So it's really kind of yeah that way And then the other thing is If people have a paramount objection, which means well, I really can't live with that decision It's out of my range of tolerance or the other way. I personally often like to look at this Do I think that? Deciding in favor of Whatever that decision is it could be like a role that we have been talking about right now or anything else Do I think that this puts our joint risk? Joint go at risk so for example if we Work on a product and if we go that way do we risk that we cannot deliver So it's really a paramount objection. It's not just I don't like it. It's not a personal preference Right. It's more to add things that there's something for that state One one thing to add which is that an objection Often appears in your gut and not in your head And that's the key to like this is really not gonna work when you feel that twist The the Dutch word for objection carries that connotation the English word doesn't so we always have to say it includes your body As well as your mind when you're objecting It's fine. I'm going to argument it and Overvacant the bits bar Yeah, okay, that was good that you because I forgot to ask at any other question Thank you for jumping in Yeah, yeah, right, right. So what do we do if there is no objection? So I want to go first, but I know you have much more to say about that So the the one thing which is for me a really big thing is That we are not trying to convince that person Let's say John is the one who objected and so we in a different setting we would kind of try to pull him over now in a consent decision-making framework we see this as a Great possibility to improve our decision because probably we have overlooked something and this is a completely different Attitude and it is for me. Well, I've as I said, I'm from the edge of feel so not like John for me This is very closely related to the attitude we have in retrospective where we say we always assume That people did the best they could given with the knowledge they're having So we are not assuming he's objecting chess to be an opposer or to slow things down or anything But more that he's objecting in order to make Better what we are trying to achieve here. So that's the the first thing which I find is very very important And now an objection is the most valuable thing you can have in the decision-making process because it's oops Where's our blind spot? What are we not seeing and you resolve them by Trying to get to the arguments the arguments meaning The characteristics so this bottle of water has arguments I can't pour water at the bottom because of the arguments But the arguments I can unscrew the top and pour the water out So what are the arguments even if it's like I have a bad feeling about this? I will often say where anybody's about feeling well It's kind of like in here. What's triggering that and we get start getting to what we can understand and The inevitably you when you have an objection you end up thinking much better It when you're in a self-organizing circle, you're together because you have something you're trying to do a common goal and If you find out that nobody wants to do that thing that's necessary to get the goal done Then you have to say okay guys. What are we going to do about that? We have to get it done Nobody wants to do it. What do we do and then the creative thinking starts Who knows what the answer will be nothing that you thought of before So if everybody has an objection, it's like, okay, what are we gonna do? So it was the same question The customer first repeat because I think it hasn't been understood So how do you bring in ownership because a lot of times you have people in well What's called? So therefore see a circle. We will probably talk more about a team There's not everybody taking full responsibility or taking ownership. So how can you do do this and I was looking for your paper Okay, so this one yes the Fundamentally Any business most businesses these days you run across are at the basic basis autocratic Even though you might be source of self-organizing below There's shareholders who are auto crafts and they say this is what has to happen so if you implement Sociocracy completely you now have a different basis of decision-making Fundamentally in the organization that's consent and that means the very top levels Have to have feedback through double-linking because and it's in their interest because it helps them Here what's going on they might have blind spots otherwise So it's a very fundamental shift And we'll maybe go on to double-linking. Yeah Maybe that there's one one thing which I Find very strong. So which is you always go round. So everyone has to speed up Actually, I know you have my more experience But I'm very strict with like the content decision really asking everyone to say it out loud Saying like yes, I consent or no, I don't have any objection because it seems to me it makes a big difference I I don't know how many of you know that thing that we are using and retrospectives for Quite a while which is called room and voting where we say thumbs up or down or sideways So up I'm with it sideways I go with whatever has been decided and down as I will speak up and say my objection So it sounds a bit like this is content, right? but to me it seems it's different if I do a sign or if I have to speak up because once I speak up I'm more connected to what I'm saying and So now tapping of ownership if we are going around and everyone says something to that decision it seems to me that there is more ownership triggered because I Set it out loud what I think about this thing and I'm with it or not Probably doesn't answer it completely, but it's in that direction and being there as a whole person. It's very important Yeah, right So we take two more questions or should we go on quick questions? I don't know Okay, then please please so maybe you want to take a note and ask that later. Yeah Because of the hierarchy you're saying a different power You're looking for you're looking for a really good person. Yeah, I get it for a get it You're just looking to somebody who's good enough for now Save enough to drive and I want only different question add to that What's also very helpful is do you want to put and that's Offer done a lot. You want to put a timestamp to your position and the timestamp could mean just That that well in three months from now Revisit that decision or it might mean we say Straight away. This is only for an experiment and then we definitely will make a new decision So putting a timestamp to decisions just in general even if you are not using consent I think it's a very helpful thing for something like this because then you feel safer that you don't have to decide something for Eternity, right? It's good enough for now and there was a comment and then we go on So so you have regular circle or retrospective meetings. You put it back You put it on the agenda and say we need to revisit it before that Everybody can put it on the agenda. I've got a problem with this decision. Whether it's electing somebody or a policy decision Okay, let's First recap what we have seen we actually have gone through three of the four principles already So one was which we didn't capture really in detail. I said well until circusy It's called a circle. We probably an actual would call it a team. It's here called circle as semi Autonomous units meaning that as the circle or less team You have a joint goal and for that joint goal. You can make your own decision. So that's the Autonomous part Then shared decisions based on consent This is what we have seen and we saw it together actually with the example of Electing people to functions and tasks. So these were already three of the four principles So maybe you can relate now why I'm saying it's kind of simple It's not overloaded and that's what I personally like about it. So what's still open is double linking between circles and That's what we are starting right now. Do you want to go to sure You want this I'll ask you to okay. Yeah, you're the expert on it. Well, it's a really old fancy tool So we have the diagram of what here a typical hierarchical organization and the people at the top are Maybe the one who's very Light-colored there may be the shareholder who's the power behind it all it's an autocratic structure When this was invented in Holland by Gerard Endenberg a few decades ago he had taken over a Electrical engineering firm from his parents and they had set it up as an intentional management laboratory and You know Gerard Endenberg was an electronics engineer He worked for Phillips for a while and invented the flat speaker that's sitting in your cell phone And but he agreed to leave that career and continue his family's experiments So when he took over the company he looked at this diagram and said I would never design a power circuit that way You tell me that's the power diagram. I wouldn't design it that way because it has no feedback loop There's nothing in there that says okay, we're doing things But we have to inspect adapt plan and look at that arrow going from plan to do Do has no choice do has to listen to that feedback But inherently in the top-down diagram The top does not have to listen to the bottom They can say oh, I like your opinion. I like your opinion and he out now Here's my decision and there's no opportunity for the people who are putting their input in saying to say I have an objection to that decision always top down top down and you can have a Participate of management and you know, maybe I've even had top managers say to me I'm very good participative manager I give people the feeling they've had input and then I make my decision however I want it So Sociocracy says The the so there's the Interesting thing about feedback loops and that is that the feedback always occurs in a different path Then the the command structure so you see it in the water cycle you have water running down the river and You have to somehow get the water back up to the top of the mountain You don't have the water run back up the river. That doesn't work So this is like the game of rock paper scissors gravity beats mountain evaporation beats gravity and Mountain beats evaporation Because it's rain and you have a cycle so that cycle of evaporation and rain is not the path that the water comes down if you look at your your Circulatory system the red veins are carrying blood out and you don't send the blood back to the heart through the arteries You have to have a vein coming back. So it's a very natural thing but in that diagram we saw The veins the return of the power is not there so We go now to the question of go again We have the hierarchy and we add something we go along doing our work But we periodically have a retrospective or a circle meeting and that completely changes the power structure It's the engine that pumps power back up again So it's a completely separate structure. So when you have a circle meeting you have the boss there You have the workers there and everybody by consent is equal You have the same voice and We make decisions about how we operate together day by day So we're going to demonstrate. I think we have time to demonstrate Okay, so we're going to hand out little tiny dots for you to put on your badge and some of them are colored Orange and in this case the orange is standing for the the downward power the supervisors the bosses and So each table will have a a boss and the other color the the Gray is going to stand or and you'll see black there Yeah, it's going to stand for an elected representative I keep wanting to be able to point here, but I can well, I just have the Orange one so you just pick one and you put it on your badge and please make sure that at your table At least somebody is picking the black one and somebody is picking the what was the other color? I forgot they're great gray Black was gray black is gray red red of course Orange red and black Sorry, I was saying let orange stand for red and Okay, so you have the black left so what you have one complete left Yeah, well actually The question is the meaning of the stickies and actually I would say it doesn't matter right now It will matter in a second So just pick any of the stickers and put it on your badge and ensure that at your table Somebody has the black exactly for example like this very good demonstration Somebody has the black and somebody has a red one so there might be some orange ones left over Okay, okay so Does somebody does somebody understand how you get these gray people with these gray arrows going up here? well, we haven't talked yet, but We need to recap what black or gray and red means we haven't done the art in this diagram You see that there are downward arrows and there are some upward arrows and At this point there are upward arrows going to the intermediate management level The upward arrows represent what we call the double link or the elected representative So if you look in the lower left You can see that there's a happy red face the person who's the supervisor of that group day to day And there is a person gray who is an elected representative. They use the process We just use for a facilitator to elect a representative Right so this this person is responsible for carrying power back up and you'll see that in the next group up on the left is a combination of red people gray people and an orange person and When they hold a circle meeting or like a retrospective at that level of thinking the people who are in gray have Just as much right of consent as the people coming down. So you now have power going back up We get the next slide and This goes all the way up To the top of the executive Function the person who's pink there would be the CEO and you'll notice that there are There's another gray arrow going up. So this group selects one of itself somebody other than the CEO To sit on the board of directors So consent goes from the bottom to the very top Okay, if we now do that exercise first of all you need to pick your color Okay, how about if I be the one of the chief bosses, so you are red then and I am black Okay, I was going to be orange. I'd be well orange. We don't have a specific role. Okay, I'll be red So the red represents all the downward. Yeah Okay So let's start with general big circle first You lead this whatever So we are a company. Yeah, let's let's not do it that way. Let's if everybody would please stand It would be lovely to have a huge space in back here where we could be Unencumbered by the tables so It would be helpful if let's see would This table here be willing to shift over here because I we're trying to Handle some physical problems here. I'm going to come in the middle and I'm going to try to Simulate in a very rough way what I would call a general circle so the each table should have the person with the Orange dot with the red dot with the red dot. Sorry with the red dot and the person with the black dot Please shift so that you're near me So if you have to the perhaps the back table just holds out for a minute We don't have to found out try to shift over so that we have a ring in here of people with black and red dots so in essence what we have is several of these groups in the middle level all participating in a broader general circle and Tables try to stand near Your your people who have the black and the red dot and I'm going to ask you I'm going to ask you to try holding hands So that you are connected as a circle Hard with the tables. Yeah, so your circle hold hands. Yeah, each circle holds hands no The red should hold hands with the rest of the circle and the end of it at the end of that circle should be the black each team Okay, good. We have we have a circle here right now. This is together This team needs to be holding hands Okay, so it should be a closed circle a closed circle for right now Yeah, but make it a closed circle at the moment Everyone actually so everyone how you were sitting at the table so you were together a table, right? Okay, so All right, so you have closed circles your autonomous circles But now we have to have a general circle that is representing everybody And we're not we and so let's see how that works. So what I would like to do is to break the circles Where you have the red dot and the black dots so that you are so you would swing around and hold the Hand of the person who is the red dotted person here Okay, and the red dotted person come around and shift it so that the black dotted person is at the other end Okay, now you need to shift over and connect with this group So where's the red dotted person here? Okay go over there and Yeah, you need to connect with her I think And you have another problem here actually they should come over here. You should come over here. So Break it right there, okay Okay, you need to make as much of a circle as we can given these chairs because you should be standing on the table and you break Here hold hands Like and red black and red You hold hands here. Yeah, this gel engine. Okay, and you make a connection with this circle over here Red and black. Yeah, so hold her hand It's okay, it doesn't matter And you hold back over here so in a very rough way In a very rough way we have a big circle, but we have each circle pinched So the people that are closest to me I would be over here like this in the circle The people that are closest to me in the inner loop here form the general circle It's only like we see up here the black people and the red people and I'm the orange person there and So we have we have a pinched circle here So that in fact We are all one big circle So everyone is connected to everyone no matter in which team you are in or in which place in the hierarchy because of the uplink or the representative the feedback in the structure and the downlink so which is like So you have a situation it can be thousands of people in the company And yet you're all one circle you are all equal by consent But you also have the hierarchy that you need different levels of abstraction Formed by pinching the circles this circle here handles more abstract work than the side circles And this circle here means all the ones with the red and the black dots Yeah, so the red and the black dots are what we call a general circle And that can be connected upwards and upwards through many levels up to the including the board of directors And that may be the other interesting thing is if you are the one with the black dot Which is the feedback thing which goes back maybe Then this means for a decision You have the same say as the red Counterpath on that level you are part of the circle right so that's that's the real power of it It's not that only the bosses have something to say It's all the people who represent that feedback you have the same say and by consent The experience is is that sometimes people who are elected upwards will get elected upwards several levels Because people recognize their leadership and often they become the next executive Because people recognize it and sometimes you will have people who have suddenly have an idea and They'll say I want to be an extra representative and their circle will put them in the next higher circle with their special idea And there's instances where they are put up two or three or four levels and land on the board of directors And a new decision is made so the leadership can come from any direction. It's a very fluid process So that the real power in my opinion comes from Where we started we started with maybe I go back with the slides we started actually with the Classical hierarchy and that's the I think the real power It's not saying like on the one hand whatever you are having is Voltage or no hierarchies no managers which might be a nice goal But most of the companies at least I'm working with there's no way of saying well We give up on all hierarchies and managers, but they would be willing and they are they also see the need to be more Adaptive more flexible more agile and therefore they know that the hierarchy the way it is in place It's often counterproductive because things take too long for example pillar of decision is made and then Working with what's in place It's on the one hand easier than saying well forget about all that stuff You have done the last 20 years or so right then and put something else that's the pause that adaption flexibility Actuality so that's I think that the absolute power that's coming in so it's starting where companies are and not like saying Okay, that's forget about all of this and I just think it's much easier to follow that Sure What kind of decision I'm happy to hear this question because the distinction between Operational decisions and policy decisions seems to be the most challenging for people to get so you nailed it the key question You remember what you do in retrospectives? You sit back and think how did this last sprint go? Let's change it this way We need to have 20 minutes stand up meetings rather than 15 and we want to change the burn down board or whatever you decide So you're sitting back and thinking how are we working together and then for when you go to the next sprint Then you're making operations decisions every day if it's if you're In a company that's manufacturing air compressors Most of the time you are making decisions about well, do we change that this way? Do we just did somebody not show up and we have to move them around and you know change the assembly line? All those are decisions that happen day-to-day and typically if you have a supervisor that makes them they're very efficient You may get together and have a stand-up meeting in the morning. You know what's happening? But you need to spend time maybe it's every two weeks Maybe it's every four weeks to just let all that go and sit back and think together Gee, we don't like the supervisor doing that. Let's change the guidance for the supervisor now We and it's like having a parliament It's like suddenly you have only a kingdom and now you have a parliament and You you make decisions as a parliament about how are we working together? And so those policy decisions those questions about how do we work together? It's kind of like if you meditate, you know It's a time to be quiet together and you have new ideas coming up and that's where the creativity comes in So you're only going into you're only doing the upward power Periodically every three or four weeks or however long you're having retrospectives So that's does that give you a feel for the difference? In Tamil Nadu and in Kerala There's a huge Structure of neighborhood parliaments and they go up to the warden and the panchayat and so on and they're operating with sociocracy and They they very much call them parliaments. I think that kind of like explains it may be better than the word circles I like their Any other correct the timestamp comes in you should be able to pull the person back at any point when you're No, it could from the team It also can be the downward person saying I can't work with this person anybody in that circle In the upper circle can say, you know, this isn't working or in the lower circle Again also deciding on who will represent that team is done by consent, right? And by consent if I look I'm not sure If I look at this circle here, then they decide together meaning also the red guy it's a total class, right? And that guy as well and everyone else, right? So and they decide by consent if for example, this one is the right one Representing us. Yes. This is a this is a trick for everybody. It's a management and union combination It's everybody's in a circle saying how do we want to operate? Well coming from a country where unions are really strong, so I'm from Germany The the big difference that I'm seeing is That we typically don't have that at every level of extraction in the hierarchy It's more like the whole company decides on a couple of people or maybe a few more and they will be They will represent The the the workforce on the highest level, but not like on every level of the hierarchy And I think this really makes a big difference because This way the union is not involved in policy decisions on the different Abstraction levels in the hierarchy. So well, there's no now Companies they have more than three levels, right? So but but even there it would be that they would vote for somebody who would be like at the very top and Represent the the workforce and here we say like at every level At section level of the hierarchy we have a representative of The section level lower down so rather than touching at the top like this they go like this And I agree it is similar, but this is for me the biggest difference And maybe also the way a person is elected because at least in Germany It's also a democratic election, which means the minority is not heard even if they have a very good paramount We will never know why don't why don't we sit down? Yeah. Yeah Well on the other hand, you know Pitting it's the new smoking. So it's good that you had a possibility to stand for a while Yeah Okay, so the question was about compensation if you buy my book Chapter 13 There the money is Is a kind of measurement it's a kind of feedback as opposed to why you're in business It lets you know are we actually serving our customers and the trick is to Have money be a uniform measurement from the shareholders down to the lowest level So if you're putting sociocracy in completely and you're paying attention to your measurement system Then you typically won't want to have a guaranteed basic income They're not starting to talk about that out in California when they're getting worried about what to do with truck drivers when we have automated trucks Saying we might need to get in some kind of guaranteed minimum guaranteed income that lets you you know be basically okay and then building in a Variable feedback so that if you're doing well, hey everybody gets more money and if you're not Typically, you don't get a variable income until you've made up the deficit and This can be the trick is to put It on an apples to apples basis by that I mean we think of shareholders have invested money and Workers are investing labor and time If you conceptualize that the money invested by the shareholders is just coagulated labor It came from labor originally Now you have the basis of saying right when we are sharing the variable income the shareholders should get this much and The workers who put in time should get that much. You're you're splitting up something that's equal It can be if it takes some some Working with your accountants, they're crying hearing this because they've never done it before But if it depends upon the nature of the work if it's project work, it's very easy Should be able to identify how much profit that project made and have it reflected for the people that worked on the project if you're doing casework or Cost plus fixed fee then that becomes more of a challenge and you have to think how do we actually Try to get the measurement as specific as possible You're generally going to be more incentivizing the larger team, but and so it depends on every situation is a bit different How do we actually have that? You're asking about predictability in a manufacturing environment that it's nothing is very predictable anymore You end up with crowdsourcing the you know the design of your machine or whatever so If you are clinging to predictability as your source of security these days look out It's nothing is very predictable anymore wasn't your question as well like We predict that it goes into that direction like so Circus II Actually, I I would like to answer this this way what I'm seeing right now, and I guess everyone is seeing this there are a lot of Development stream Bubbling up at the moment so so Circus II actually exists since the 70s But now people are talking about it a lot and Hulacra see is around and then there's other stuff like beyond budgeting is something that addresses the same Aspects from a finance Perspective because they say well as long as you have like annual budget You will not be flexible enough to serve the market So that basically well on the one hand this gives me a great chance to advertise our full-day workshop on Saturday Because that's what we are looking at on Saturday. That's the one thing on the other hand I I Predict that it goes in that direction Just given what's happening at the moment and people are talking about this so much from different angle Times not knowing from each other So in and it's still kind of everywhere people are looking into how to make companies more Agile more in a transfer meaning flexible adaptive so they might not have heard of actual like scrumps, right? But more like flexibility or so and so I really think it goes into that direction And we have three more comments on and then here and then we really need to move on for example Robotics has just exploded you have robots that don't even have to be programmed anymore You just kind of move their arms around and there goes your manufacturing line Okay, you were first I think Because the trust is missing that that part that's part of the training You'll notice that we started out this process with everybody saying what they thought first You don't know what the boss is going to say so you can't just copy the boss and that forces your opinion out and When you're doing a circle meeting and you have different levels The there's there's specific procedures facilitation procedures We use to create the possibility that people will say no to the boss And it doesn't happen overnight If you only if you have the boss telling you this and the same boss doing that you're running power back up Do the same pipe? Well, that's actually the reason why we call that kind of A manager in a sandwich position because that's exactly what's happening. So it's kind of Has to do both ways and it's not working. That's what we are seeing and I want to move on quickly Yeah If you read chapter 13, you'll see that there's both a near-term variable and a long-range variable So you have to give both measurements Okay, I think we should Yeah, excellent question and comment for moving on actually because that's the Direction I want to head to because it's an actual conference and so maybe we should also talk a little bit about actuality so What I have here on the slide is copied directly from the scrumguides.org which is The well, that's the title of it from us was expected service to the organization So to the organization not to the team, right? So it's really that excerpt where it only focus what should discover muscle to fall the Organization and then it says here I'm reading this now leading and coaching the organization in its crumb adoption learning scrum implementation within the organization helping employees and stakeholders Understand in an X crumb and empirical product development to be very honest. I have never seen that And the reason is I Believe that the scrum master is not embedded in the structure So it's not that feedback loop, but you are just saying well, wouldn't that be a good fit? I think yes, actually that would be a good fit and only if you have the scrum master as the representative of the team the scrum master can stop working on these things that The scrum guide is expecting here and as long as the scrum master is not part of the hierarchy It's just almost impossible to serve in this way And so for example if I were a scrum master that was embedded in the circle structure I might very well say I have a paramount objection to this personnel rating system because it's damaging it And here's why and they would get it right up on the table to look at Which is a great possibility to also ask you what else can you see? So this was a great way of Applying it so maybe using a scrum master as the feedback structure in the hierarchy But what else do you see? Oh? maybe That's true And so it's outside the hierarchy actually my my way of looking at something like this And now this brings me back to the theme of the day, which is Agility at scale so Also, if you think of all those communities of practice So you have the architects from the different teams which has to cooperate in some way And so they form this community of practice a great way of coming up with a decision Who would be the best architect from our? circle is By using that kind of election right so and then it also means well We really trust and respect that person that That's really the person who can make the best decisions for us right so also this is a great Application now not really embedded in the classical Organizational hierarchy because it's something else the communities of practice, but still it is a very helpful way of Really using that which can be actually be used even without Well telling your company new we now have to go a sociocratic way Yeah, which might be a really huge step, but coming up with who is representing us at which Community of practice you can do it right away Monday So very good example anything else Yeah, start small. Yeah, exactly. So I would also say it's not necessarily easy, but starting small for example with what we just said Also using ever once in a while consent decision Maybe in the retrospectives maybe in other meetings and often what I see then is that this is spreading people Copying it because they find it valuable for example going around and hearing all the opinions and figuring that the decisions are really better and the buy-in is much bigger so No, it's not easy but you can you can stop at a I would think you can stop everywhere and That's the thing that I really like about that It is simple enough to get started and you might It might take you a long time till you get anywhere close to this right because it goes all the way up to the shareholder Right, but the biggest problem is training Nobody has been trained in this the best place to start training is in a like secular third grade And so that it just becomes part of the way you operate. So you are constantly bringing new people in Or you'll expand get to a higher level and you have to train train train because it's new concept And I guess training is meant at least that's how I translate it for me is till it Second nature and it's really part of the culture So it doesn't have to be like formal training, but more training so it's really in the mind Well similar to what we are talking about In general, but it takes time to really settle Organizations that I've helped implement will end up with somebody who is responsible when you orient the new employee coming in You make sure that they understand what these circle meetings are all about for example We take a last question Yes, so and you're saying they are actual already Well, of course, I can't answer it and the main answer is it depends a lot on the size I think of the company and it also depends a lot on Well, I just wanted to say that the age of the company which isn't true which What I mean more is that existing culture So if you think of any kind of startup, they're very close probably and they're open to new experiments anyway Right, but if you are looking at the company, well my home country like Siemens Well, they are huge and they're exists for a long time and there is the country chest in there And it's well they they might be able to change it here and there, but till like whole Siemens would have changed I took a company of an agile programming company Two visits about total of about three months to make it go the whole way that they were ready to go Well in the other thing that I'm reading about culture shifts that people say it's more like 10 to 20 years But again, I think it depends very much on the context. So that's why You're really running out of time as well, so that's the summary. So it's the four Principles that we hope you have experienced all of them and I guess That's it, right? We want to put in one more ad for for Saturday one more ad for Saturday So Saturday full-day workshop and it's not so surrogacy only it's also so surrogacy But we are also looking at those other streams like beyond battery thing for example and Open space flesh open sauce and those ideas and how they all fit together So, thank you very much and try the rest of the conference. Thank you