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Well, very well, thank you. First of all, thanks for coming on the show, Terry. No problem. You're the leading, one of the leading polygraph experts in the UK. One of the reasons why you're on a show today is because you're the man who gave Luke McShow and his mum the polygraph test, which both passed with flying colours. But there's also a lot of skeptics asking questions why the courts can't use them and you can't release people from prison. You can lie on them and believe if you're that much of a social path and believe your own lies, you can trick them. So today's the kind of give your side of things and let you have your say. So first of all, Terry, how did that all begin for you? How did you get into being one of the leading experts in the UK? I don't actually like the word expert to be perfectly fair because I think we're always learning. So you can't be at the top of the game. You have to do updated training. And obviously I was one of the original three people in the UK to be trained in America with polygraph. So it's just through my experience of 14 years that I'm probably more well known and I do a lot of high profile cases. Who came to you first to do the polygraph with Luke McShow? I think it was the Daily Mail, a newspaper in Scotland that contacted me and they asked me if I would be prepared to test Corrine Mitchell over the issue of her son. At that point I had no knowledge or didn't... I obviously seen it on the TV at some point but I didn't have any other knowledge of that and I agreed that I would test virtually anybody under the right conditions to see if they've... Yeah, because it's such a high profile case. Luke McShow has been protesting his innocence for the last 16 years and the reason why I've been shedding light on it is because one of the reasons is the polygraph test. He asked Luke McShow three questions. You also asked him each question three times and you did the same with his mum and they both passed. Some people are calling Luke a social path and they say the lie detectors can be cheated. Guys like Ted Bundy's names we're getting through into the mix because he passed a lie detector. Can you explain that a bit? Well obviously I can't explain the whole detail of people like Ted Bundy but Ted Bundy was a sociopath psychologically unbalanced and in factual he should never have been tested. We have to be very careful about who we test and if somebody has psychological issues with their sociopathic, psychologically unbalanced split personalities we cannot test them because who are you testing? You're not testing if you like the norm of a person. So he was a diagnosed sociopath Ted Bundy? Well he's been diagnosed with having many split personalities he's got different personalities in the way he's, the way his mind works and he cannot be possibly of a normal sense in his head because of some of the crimes that he's committed. And Luke McShow he wasn't diagnosed with any mental health or social path or he wasn't, he was fine to do the tests? One of the first tests, one of the first requirements for myself when I go into a place like a prison or somebody who has a high profile test is I want to know especially if they're in prison have they gone through any psychological evaluations and if they are then deemed to have psychological problems then I refuse the test because you cannot test them. When Luke was doing his test he had his eyes closed a lot of people are saying he had his eyes closed because he was concentrating to fill the test. Why was he sitting with his eyes closed? Well considering that during his test there was myself, Luke, his paralegal and one guard standing out behind myself Luke was actually looking directly at that person who was actually from Luke's perspective they were pulling faces at him so I suggested to him that he closed his eyes which is in actual fact a good thing to do anyway on a polygraph test. Before you ask the serious questions do you ask shorter questions like because Corrine said are you sitting on a chair just to kind of make things accurate? We ask 11 questions so you're asking three relevant questions that was pertinent to the issue that he had then we ask three comparison questions which are what we call them probable lies we have a different system as well now called directed lie but at that time I used a probable lie so I asked him questions that he could have failed but we don't score then he's getting asked some known truths like are you sitting in a chair is your name Luke, that type of question they just give us an average baseline and then there are two irrelevant questions which are just questions that we ask to introduce the whole issue to it what is accurate as a polygraph test? Well under the American Polygraph Association Metadata Information they put there a polygraph test between 90 to 95% it all depends on circumstances it will depend on the person it depends on the type of questions Accuracy is measured really if the test is conducted correctly asking direct specific questions that are pertinent to that case How easy is it to basically lie to a lie how hard is it for a liar to pass a lie detector? Well in my opinion being a professional examiner you cannot pass the test if you are of sound mind then you cannot pass the test by lying on the test we have certain criteria and there are certain conditions which they have to abide by one will be like movement it's one of our biggest enemies so I use a movement sensor which they sit on there are also hand pads, feet pads what they can do I didn't have those during that time but they're not requirement anyway but the seat pad is an absolute requirement to have Yeah because I never used to have the seat pad because I put a clip of Luke's polygraph test on my Twitter and one of the questions you asked was did he stab Joda Jones which he said no which he passed and people had us obviously you're going to get people who are both sides believe in it, don't believe in it one of the questions was how do you stop a subject from flexing the anal sphincter what is the anal sphincter? Well it's a muscle in the anus which we would say that don't squeeze your bottom together what it comes down to is it isn't just about the sphincter muscle in the older analogue instruments there was no movement sensors so some people would try and train themselves on them where the examiner had to observe them very carefully to make sure that they were not moving twitching, moving fingers, arms, muscles but it was very difficult because in an analogue instrument you're constantly making changes on the instrument itself and it's all manual you're using a pencil, you're marking the charts you're marking everything so it was quite a workload with an analogue instrument because you've got the thing for the seat now that you should meet earlier well this is all computerised polygraph now so this pad the pad that you see in front of you is a typical type of movement sensor that you would sit on what it comes down to for me I give instructions to each person I want you to sit perfectly still once the blood pressure cuff is inflated sit perfectly still and do not move it's very difficult many people complain and say I can't sit still and then I give them a choice you can either sit still or if you cannot sit still there's no point in doing the test so court cases you can't use like the polygraph test in court do you think there will be anything in the future that maybe this can start happening the reasons that I've been given from home office officials over many years we've been trying to get recognised more in courts etc is that it is subjective the results are subjective by each examiner they can be quality controlled by other examiners by government examiners if they wish to go down that route this is the main reason that they give for not using it it shouldn't be used as an absolute it should be used as a tool so if you have four suspects and you polygraph them all and two pass and two fail then use the ones that fail that test to continue with a thorough investigation courts really shouldn't be that afraid of it because in a lot of cases and one in question is Lukes there is no evidence that Lukes committed this crime as far as I've seen nobody has produced a single piece of evidence to me to say that Lukes was involved in the murder of Jodie Jones could Lukes have trained himself to pass this test well there are lots of people that say that you can meditate when you ask a question on the test they have to answer immediately they have been through the questions several times because there's no secrets or surprises so they have to answer the questions immediately now if somebody is meditating somebody is thinking lots of people tell me that if I think bad thoughts if I think of something more horrific than what I'm being asked questions about that will override the function of the test but what I say to them is if you can do that you can possibly be thinking of something to what I'm asking you and answer immediately then there's something completely wrong because it doesn't work like that you have to answer immediately on the test first two people to be lying on the same case and both passing what's the odds or the chances of that happening well that is dependent is that using two separate examiners yeah no the ones the same as yourself having chlorine and having look on the polygraph if both were lying and both passing how big a percentage would that be for both I wouldn't even like to calculate that possibility because I take each case as it comes I have nothing to gain from passing somebody especially for such a horrific murder I'm horrified at what happened and that could be my family, that could be my friends family could be anybody there so it's not for me to be in judgement of whether that person I want to get that person off because they seem a nice person I don't have a figure to give you about two people passing or failing a test without good reason so from your on point of view for look passing do you think he killed Jody Jones absolutely not and Corrine Mitchell do you feel as if she was involved in some way from this case to help her son absolutely not because again I'm always trying to sit in the fence with this because it's such a touchy subject and erm but for this was one of the reasons because of the polygraph results have you ever made a mistake not to my knowledge I've not been sued and I've been doing this for 14 years I've not been sued it's just challenged me to take me to court or any other reason usually when a person fails a test we do what I do a post test interview with that person because if you can then get a confession from that person and it is an interview by the way it's not an interrogation but erm that will be standard practice in every single fail that somebody has and you've had any presence before and of your pedophiles and murderers before yes I have and now I've done this in Scotland and Wales and Wales because it's high profile cases also and when people fail what do they do with their results within a prison that's entirely up to that person they do sign a consent form now when they're incarcerated then I often get them most times I get that person to give me consent to give one of their family, friends a lawyer or somebody else that information because they shouldn't be able to hide that information because for pedophiles we spoke earlier and some of the polygraph tests work for them getting released from prisons is that correct no they don't take a polygraph test to get out of prison under the National Offender Management Scheme where they do PSOT testing the person is going to be released anyway and that goes through obviously with their probation they are usually just tested on their licence conditions so once they come out of prison they have a set of licence agreements that they've arranged with it and they will be tested on those alone they're not being tested on the original crime that's already been judged and they've already been sentenced for that and they've been tested for the stuff that they're on licence for yes and that might be about using internet contacting people around schools but contacting other people who may also be into pedophilia etc etc and if they fail that do they go back to prison I believe that on the rules change slightly all the time but I believe that they have to fail too and then they could most likely go back to prison so why is that help those cases but yet not others that's a question I'm baffled with myself because it's I wouldn't say it's a double standard what I would say is if you're able to return a prisoner back to prison for failing their licence conditions which they could do if even drink drivers it can be for anything but particularly with polygraph I think that the police should be allowed to use them for investigative purposes and I think that would be a great tool for them to use and it would save a great deal of time money and effort as the polygraph are they progressing more as well getting higher percentages becoming more accurate not particularly the accuracy is already very high I mean we get a lot of people a lot of clients say 100% the only thing that's 100% is that we're all going to die one day it used to be death and taxes but a lot of people evade taxes as well today but I think the accuracy is as high as it can be in lots of terms see for the privacy in Luke's case as well and the prison should have got more privacy when they done the polygraph test the issue with it's done in a legal room so it's not done in open visiting room and there was glass panels around this room also no there was only Luke there was no glass panels at the side that were people were in it was only the viewing thing which is a good thing, you need a guard I mean nobody knows what a prisoner, not talking about Luke a prisoner in particular may do or not do especially when they're given the information from myself because I do tell them their result because that's a requirement for me but it wasn't really for that particular person to be making faces at Luke to cause any problems do you do the do you do how quickly do you get your results you can have the results within 10-15 minutes you're scoring the entire time you're there I also review the charts several times before I proffer the result to the person so what is wired up then when you're doing a polygraph is it heart rate, sweat you're using a blood pressure cuff and at that time you can use an arm cuff which is a simple cuff that the doctor uses but back in 2012 Lafayette also brought out a thumb cuff which is less pressure on the body and it takes away a lot of the stress from the arm and it was perfectly okay to use it was later I think it was around 2015 that it was recommended that we don't just use that on its own but it's all about the tracing at the end of the day excuse me if you've got a good tracing from the blood pressure then there's no reason why you shouldn't use it but that's measuring relative blood pressure pulse rate and blood volume and then we use two pneumographs which are convoluted pieces of tubing that go across the chest for the thoracic breathing and one across the stomach and that's measuring from the diaphragm they're just the convoluted tubing so as you breathe in and out they move marginally it changes the pressure inside and the volume of air inside and gives you a reading for their respiration so if you're lying, does it polygraph what is every one of them trigger? they all figure there is two finger plates which will go on their two fingers of their right hand which are picking up electrical dermal activity from the sweat gland they're a very important part so they're all fairly weighted they're not equally weighted but you need to have all functions working to make sure that you're using how was Luke before he got his polygraph test? I only met him I've only met Luke once and that was on the day we had a conversation for about an hour I think it was about an hour and ten minutes what I wanted, I already had a big background about the case but I wanted to hear it from Luke's own perspective so he gave me a run through of his day what was happening during that day and all of the events that run up to that day where he went out looking for and he mentioned about his dog which was a hunting dog etc etc so he went through the entire day with me and then I obviously asked him questions whether he was involved or not can you look at people through body language also and think just guessing who's guilty and who's not guilty you should never even try to do that you can use micro expressions from the face that's not my job to do that that's for like an investigation or just doing an investigative interview you can use those tactics but that way if you're making an assessment on the person then you're now corrupting your results that you've got so don't look for any other information just use the polygraph results a lot of, so when you're is there a lot of telltale scenes though for people who are innocent are there a lot more camera are there a lot more fidgeting that even many innocent most innocent people are probably more terrified because one of the factors which I actually introduced to them during the interview is is that they're always fearful of something this is the unknown for a person who's never taken a polygraph before it's a lot of them say it's pseudo-science there are lots of skeptics there is more information on the internet about why not to take a test which is about the positive side but that's for that person to have researched before they get to me I always introduce to a person that they have to think about me am I do I take a position where I don't like the look of them where I think they're guilty of something but I try to I have a discussion about that because I want to dispel that from them because I am the unknown they've never met me before and they've put their trust in what I'm doing because if you were innocent obviously you're going to be scared with some questions and thinking if you're thinking that you did that could that potentially affect it? No as it just all goes down to heartbeat, stuff, anything in my opinion can you actually believe in that you did do that? not just in polygraph but in life I don't believe that you can talk yourself in to doing anything if you know that you've stolen if you've committed a murder you've committed a sexual offence it doesn't matter what it is you know if you've done it one of the issues that we have is say a habitual thief for instance if I can give you this example but a habitual thief who steals every day then what's the point in asking them about do you have a steal or did you steal this? you've got to target the actual thing that you're there therefore you can rely on stealing but if they've stolen a laptop or something of value then you can target on that item to focus them because otherwise stealing is just an everyday job for them but so you have to target with something specific whereas in Luke's case hopefully Luke has never killed anybody ever but if you killed somebody before you would have to then use everything else so you've got to focus that question can you obviously look to try to get his retrial which I think he deserves could you forward your results on to anyone? my results including the video was sanctioned by shots prison it's quite unusual to be able to video in a prison it was one of the first times I've ever been allowed to but I asked for permission I signed a confidentiality report from the prison not to release it to anybody without their permission which I then complied with that I then got a letter from the prison to say that I could release it to his lawyer and then their lawyer should put it on YouTube if Luke is innocent then it's potentially one of the biggest mascaras justice in the UK to get sent down for a murder charge that he didn't do but again I'm not a lawyer I'm not a lawyer I'm just here to kind of shed light on it and show some facts because I believe people are starting to look at it differently including myself when I it was Joe Steele who was on the show and he spoke about this case and when he mentioned Luke I kind of had a feeling that why did they say that a child killer, what I know you look is what I believed in the papers and then once you actually start looking into it once you actually start looking at the evidence you start to realise that there was no if this goes to a retrial then there's nothing that they actually convict Luke of a murder so it's horrific to think and understand that from Jodie Jones's family it's horrific that they've lost her daughter but it's also horrific for Corrine if her son's innocent and he's in there for the last 16 years fighting for his life. Going forward for yourself Terry where do you see the polygraph tests coming into play in quotes maybe in the next 5 years or so? Unofficially and I have to say unofficially because nobody official from the government will give us information but unofficially I am sort of aware that the police may start to expand the coverage of polygraph into other areas which I think will be a great idea and I have spoken to several senior police officers in the past and I think they should be using it for criminal activity people trafficking even on refugees of some description when they have no papers but make sure that they are genuine because today you can use polygraph for a whole host of issues it's impossible to believe that we still have slavery in the UK and it would be a good tool to use on a subject to find out whether they are telling the truth Is there any cases for you Terry that you would like to work on with the polygraph test? Is there any people you would like to have on it to ask them questions? I've already done several very high profile cases which have been going on before Luke and some of those have gone into the European Court because of the way that they have been used there are several cases and most of those have no evidence for that person and I find it impossible to believe that a person can be incarcerated for life when they have not committed a crime and I always try to put it into the perspective of that could be you or me false allegation no evidence but a jury convicts you on what's being said in a courtroom and also trial by the media plays a big part as well trial by media is a horrendous thing to happen because especially even with men today as well the man is named immediately but the girl is not even when it's section of abuse and those things are high profile every day and if this was the United States they would probably polygraph both of those people they'd polygraph the alleged perpetrator if he passes they'd polygraph the accuser and nobody wants to re-victimize and that's the biggest issue of all nobody wants to re-victimize a victim of anything but sometimes if a false allegation is made then that person needs to be in question how much do they use the polygraph in the USA the federal government use it for all federal employees private practice has got some restrictions on pre-employment screening etc but it's used widely there are sort of 5-6 thousand examiners in the United States how long do you need to train to be to understand the test the initial training is 11 weeks it doesn't sound a lot but it's actually a 16 week course it's very intense course you don't get any chances of retaking exams and tests so if you can't keep up and you fail then you go but it's very expensive you've got to do it in the United States because I believe that's the best place to do it it's been there for 98 years see I'm all for the polygraph test because obviously it's not 100% accurate as people say but for using it there's got to be a high percentage and give you a rough idea for stuff like maybe priests people who work in schools people who's working with children to give them a test and see because I believe there's more pedophilia is on the rise and there's a lot more people going to prison for it I think it'd be a good idea for certain jobs to people getting put under a polygraph test do you believe that also? I do believe in that there are CRB checks and then the DBS checks that they have now for certain jobs but there are people that get through those because if you don't have a criminal record then you are issued with one straight away and yet there is a huge tendency here within the church not just within the catholics there's all sorts of churches and the way that the religious are working with the pedophilia and child abuse and then there's all the school clubs scouts and see cadets and I mention in these particularly because I've dealt with all of them where people are accused and some of those are false allegations schools one of the very first tests I did 14 years ago was on a head teacher who was accused because he refused to allow I'm not going to say where it was or anything but he refused to allow the girls and boys to wear jewellery in a school as a new head and then all these allegations came out about him he passed his test he passed all the investigation but he still couldn't resume his career because mud sticks it can be sad as well even if they're not guilty there's people still believe that it was guilty it's got a place it's okay having that place but we need the authorities to actually go along with that and even if they're using their own probation service, police officers whatever they wish to use then that's fine but abuse in this country and serious crime in my opinion isn't being addressed correctly people getting off with technicalities from serious criminal activity and then there are the innocent people that are being convicted because the jury said so and I think that sometimes the juries need to be better selected for certain cases for sexual cases financial cases and if you use that, I think that method might be better yeah for juries to be more maybe professional and more professional and aware of that type of issue yeah definitely because obviously when Corine did the test it's more peace of mind for herself as well and more peace of mind that it's not like I told you so but it's to say the fingers have been pointed for so long if you look at also the Madeline McCann case the Madeline McCann case where people have constantly pointed the fingers to Madeline's parents do you think it'd be a good idea for them to do a polygraph test to basically look enough stop pointing fingers I wouldn't offer them a polygraph test but if you look at and I don't take too much notice of newspapers but a headline on the some newspaper a few years ago was from Madeline McCann's mother who stated I will do a polygraph test if the police ask me now at that period the police did not use it that's over four years ago the police now do use polygraph so why not take away the smear and take a polygraph test both with her and Jerry McCann take this and if they can pass that test then the smears have to stop because that's where it all comes into it so it's not about what I believe in one way or another I have no knowledge about most of that case and all the evidence is very obscured anyway but in my opinion as an examiner somebody they should take that test for such a high profile case and they're still looking into it and it's again no matter what you're doing people are always going to judge but because that's such high profile people have called out for that so many times and it's not their place to say because if they did fail it will say it's not 100% anyway well it's also the case that they've had a great deal of public money and still only two weeks ago they got another bunch of money from public money to further that case so spending a few hundred quid and a polygraph test why not do it and clear yourself and clear the air completely for that person but then I would say that because I'm in polygraph but if I was ever accused of a serious criminal act I'll take a polygraph test every day of the week because I don't want that slur on me and can you video your poly... your video would look mixed but can you video any polygraph test that you do also? it's advisable to video virtually every test especially with anybody with a sexual crime they get videoed who can use the footage? can the person who's getting tested use the footage okay? that's... if they've got a lawyer but you don't really want to give it to that person because you don't know what's going to happen and if a family member got hold of it and they didn't like that person they could abuse it and put it on and there are a lot of tests on YouTube and other social media sites it's just being careful about what you do but primarily serious cases you need to be videoing that because if they make a confession then you need to be able to hand that to the right authorities so have you got the right store the police that came and spoke to you about say someone came to you for a test did the test and the police found out do you have the legal right to speak to the police? are you contracted to say nothing? there is a confidentiality agreement between myself and a client however and I have done this several times if the police ask me for information I do request that I comply with the law and I ask them to get a court order and then I will willingly give over all of that information because I have to protect obviously myself and my business from just handing information over so sometimes a court right over supersedes someone else's rights on a serious case so why do you believe there is so many skeptics towards it when there is so much proof also that you have provided that they do work it's hard to trick you can't really fail it if you study it if you were to study the test Terry if you were to set your mind on it to fail to believe that you could pass how long would that take to trick it I guess you can trick polygraph tests is that a myth I don't know I think it's a myth because a person if there was a highly trained special forces guy who was under interrogation most times you see you mustn't have anybody harmed so if somebody came in if they have captured a special forces guy and they have already now beaten the guy up roughed him up he can't take a polygraph test anyway they have to come to you what I call clean so you have to see that person right all that person has got to do is make movements it's not about training your mind personally I don't think that anybody can alter their blood pressure their respiration to that sense you can meditate if you want to but that takes time to meditate and you haven't got that luxury in answering questions you've got five minutes to answer eleven questions with a gap in the middle of them but you've got to answer them immediately so if now you're getting a five second gap between me asking the question and them answering that's already given a reaction because there's a thought process they should know the answer so you can answer yes, no immediately so people that don't comply with that have obviously got something to hide you get people who fake that they're asleep but of course when we're reading their charts and looking at their charts you can see that they're wide awake you can see that the tracings are perfectly okay because near in a modern task with a computerized we actually don't look at the subject I had them they had their back to me I don't need to see them I want them to focus on nothing I want them to look straight ahead and see virtually nothing otherwise they're searching your face for information and searching for things that you're doing so there isn't a way of doing this and I've done a lot of research that I think that a competent professional examiner would easily see through somebody using tactics they're called counter measures do you feel as if you're constantly justifying because there's so many skeptics out there do you feel I'm a skeptic in lots of things I'm a skeptic for lots of different things that go on around the world people talk about aliens people talk about gods people talk about all sorts of things I'm a skeptic as well everybody is about something even about our phone service you know you're skeptical they say even your broadband which I had a conversation yesterday they telling me I have 100 meg and actually I'm looking at 30 so you're always skeptical about something with polygraph it is a very to understand the majority of people that do not like things like polygraph or have something bad to say about it usually don't want to take one so if you I mean if you go into even a basic relationship one and somebody doesn't want to take the test they will say I don't believe in that you know that's all that would have been me 10 years ago so you're always going to find somebody's going to have a reason not to do a test if they were in for a theft today but they didn't steal anything from their employer but five years ago they stole something from that same employer it's going to show up because it's associated because one of the questions if you've ever stolen from your employer so they may not be afraid about what they're here for today but they might be afraid about something they've done previously and so they want people will be skeptical about doing the test maybe they've got some skeletons that it could get through up in their face and say well I don't believe in a test I've said it for years I'm not in business to convince people and I'm not a salesman I don't convince people if they come to me or phone me and ask me about doing a polygraph test I tell them what I expect from them no alcohol, no drugs they've got to be in good condition no domestic violence they have to want to come to see me and I'm not going to sell it to them I give them a cost and I give them a time and appointment they can either make that appointment or they can go and think about it and not come at all or go with somebody else so if I was drunk or full of drugs could that jeopardize the test? absolutely could it make you trick the test or is it just it's not about tricking the test one of the first things I look at including yourself and I met you in the car park is a habit, I look at eye dilation so if you've got you're out in the sunlight and if you had huge dilation my first question, if you were coming for a test my first question when you come in the office would be do you have an eye problem and if you said no I've got perfectly in my eyes I'd go ok I'd ask you why your eyes are dilated in the sunlight why are they like that and if you can't give me a reasonable answer and say that you have a defect or you've just taken eye drops and things I'm not going to test you so there's lots of things that you have to think about if somebody comes in smelling of alcohol I don't test them it isn't that alcohol, one drink is going to affect the test but if you fail that person they're going to use that to say the test is void I've had a drink, I've taken some drugs they have to sign a consent form I go through a medical history with them I go through whether they've been taking drugs and stuff for 48 hours I go through a whole procedure and they sign that when I finish the test I do get people say I forgot to tell you I took a diazipam and things like that if they've taken diazipam you're going to see it on their chart you're going to see the lower end of the blood pressure so all they're doing is now looking for an excuse to get out of that test it's given me a better understanding because a lot of people the way you've put it has there's a lot of skeptics no matter what in life everything's a I'm skeptical of everything everything's I can spirits it to me unless I see it more in eyes unless I do it myself but for people looking in I think it will give people a better understanding because it's not just a case where you stick wires on people and ask them questions there's a whole procedure that comes with it prior to the test about things to see if they're telling lies they're telling the truth I think it's a great thing Terry I genuinely do, I think it's a good thing yes, people might say it's not 100% but it still gives you a root and an angle that you can look at and question it more and get into more detail would you ever do a live debate? I actually offered a live debate after Luke's test I had Sky News call me to do an interview and a couple of others and they told me that there were two eminent psychologists in Scotland who questioned my test and said that Luke was meditating Luke was in a trance Luke was doing all these things it's all speculation and if you read the newspaper or from the paper that they published it in I challenged both of those psychologists to a live TV debate of which they were anonymous by the way of which they declined if they're going to decline it they shouldn't make a comment in the first place that's my opinion I'm standing by Luke's test I feel dreadfully sorry for Jodie's family it's a dreadful thing to have happened to her family but all I would say is Luke did not do this and he is a victim as well I see it I stand by him 100% in everything and I always have done I'm fair play at you for that because this is your job and it's what you believe in for how can people get in contact with you Terry if they ever want to work with you in the future because I think a lot more people I don't think it's used enough in Scotland but now I think once you see this a lot more questions will be asked if you can give answers it can help other victims it's actually used in Scotland quite a lot I've never seen that I've actually personally visited at least 10 prisons in Scotland then because the precedent was set but then there was a right across the great of the United Kingdom it was actually every time you applied because you have to apply to go into a prison and it can take a few weeks it can take a couple of months you have to write and get all the permissions but they stopped me going in for different reasons it could be a security alert and it then became untenable to go forward it's going back probably 5 years ago I assisted the Scottish Prison Service to streamline the entry to go into Scottish prisons with all the information we had a lot of communications lots of letters and emails back and forth and this was supposed to help streamline the whole issue to get people to be able to take a test from the day that that was finished we never got into another prison for whatever reason and I don't know why people should not have anything to fear the authorities should not fear anything the authorities use polygraph and they've been using polygraph since I believe the 1950s even they used them in GCHQ and Cheltenham back in the 80s and they had a debate in parliament about the results all about spies so they've been using it and it's a double standard in some ways that if you can use it for one thing it should be available to everybody but not abused so you can't keep saying I'm going to do a polygraph test because I didn't steal a screwdriver out of B&Qs or something like that there are other DIY places but the whole point of it is if somebody is accused of a very serious crime involving other people especially children and their victims and they are victims and less proven then you should use every single tool in the box to assist that person and if they fail it then they have no one to blame but themselves and that way it justifies what they've been given in court for the authorities you can be a nuisance then because if they're getting convictions of people who are victims and who are only convicted and that sheds light on it then you've got to question the people who worked on the case you have to question an awful lot of things where this is not having a I believe in the grand prosecution service but I also believe that they get cases wrong sometimes they jump why would a CPS jump into a case that they have no evidence to back it up and that's what our system used to be you're innocent until proven guilty provide that information and then you are then you would be released you're free there's an awful lot of people who today commit a serious crime and they let it out on bail and then they skip bail you know we've got a high profile one now with this speedboat guy why would he be on bail if he's up on a manslaughter or a murder charge but that's our system today we don't have the resources in my opinion we don't spend enough on prisons we don't spend enough on policing we have a desperate shortage of police in the whole country Great Britain we have a desperate shortage of police the money is around but it's being used on other things we need to be protected with our military with our policing and our justice system needs to be robust and in my opinion and it is only my opinion that it's falling apart so for the Jeremy Keio thing as well Terry they closed the show down do you think the way they obviously didn't work on the show but do you think the way they were using the test because some of their guests looked intoxicated they didn't look mentally stable and that's me just judging from appearance but they don't look as if they're using the test in the correct way do you think it was the right idea to close that show down I watched the Dispatches program yesterday I looked it on catch up TV because I was told about it I was actually asked to make a comment on that show by the producers of Dispatches I don't know what they do on that show what I can tell you is that the examiners that they use are professional polygraph examiners one of them trained in exactly the same place as myself as far as I'm aware they do correct polygraph tests but some of those tests are not done on that day they're done a week before so it's not just coming from a test they're intoxicated on that show perhaps that's a later date I mean the person who gave the information on that Dispatches program to say he saw beer and alcohol being passed around and he's supposed to be a producer why not be open and why not show his face and give his name because he's anonymous well the whole point of it is that's it but the people that are being shocked for this now Jeremy Cole in the way he conducts himself on his show it's not a show that I watch whether it should be closed down or not there's plenty of other entertainments of a similar nature we go back to Jerry Springer show which was the origin of these things but as far as I'm aware the polygraph tests on that show are being done professionally and correctly and how many times have they been sued for not doing them correctly and a lot of people came out on that show and said that this happened, that happened when I was on there and a lady on there said I'd already signed the contract so we had to go through with it well what contract you just don't have to take part you know you can walk out of that it's a TV show this isn't a court so I believe there's they're always going to get people that are have been let down in some way it's not something that I would like to get involved in not at all I believe that ITV the way they've reacted wanted to end that show that's my personal opinion because it was too quick they haven't shut down Love Island and yet two people committed suicide and they're still running it and I heard that they said that they're not using the polygraph on Love Island anymore they have never used a polygraph on Love Island and Ebay it's a little gadget that they put on the chest and things like that they are not proper polygraphs and it's going back to people abuse polygraph by saying that this is polygraph so voice stress analysis is not polygraph but it gets that same title but that's not good for you for a professional in the field for people to be using them and then using that as a professional basically saying it's a professional polygraph they're probably sitting there drunk as well they're probably intoxicated from the night before it's difficult for some of these professionals yourself to see that and people are jumping on that because the majority of Britain watch Love Island not me please there's a great deal of audience for this type of show and it obviously brings in money sales if they're going to do something on it then they did the same with Big Brother they used lie detectors on there they were not lie detectors they were using the same type of gadget that you can buy I think they cost about 80 quid or something like that so if you're going to do something do it properly make it a bit more authentic but of course nothing is authentic on those types of shows they're good entertainment for the people that want to see them I don't mind what people have that's personal choice I think that the the crew of people on that Jeremy Cole show are being vilified over Innuendo and sort of people that have failed tests I mean the people that I've failed on a test I actually got abused in Stastard Airport some years ago just by a man walking over to me and calling me some very nasty names and it wasn't until I kept looking at him and looking at him and he walked off and I realised that I probably had done a test with him about four or five years ago and failed him and I still to this day I can't remember much about it but he just said you ruined my life and that was it so people are disgruntled but that's the only one I've ever had the only one you're going to get that in your line of work because a lot of people who are on a Jeremy Cole show is well denied it's not true I get a lot of complaints I've had people phone up even only a couple of weeks ago somebody's phoned me and said I've just done a polygraph test on the Jeremy Cole show and I failed and I want a new test and I said listen I don't retest I said it's unprofessional to go and do that because if they've been done a proper test I say if you've got an argument then go back to the producers of the show while you're phoning somebody you've picked out a phone book listen to what they're saying but you still don't know if that's fact because none of that information is going to come back and I've written to in my earlier days I wrote to the Jeremy Cole show and said this person claims that this and this happened you don't get a response so there's no comment it's a waste of my energy and time so if someone does a test with you Terry and they fail they won't get another one I would not do another test if somebody wanted another one would you do that also? I wouldn't retest somebody if you retest them and you can't use the same questions anyway because you shouldn't do that but if you retest them that means you don't believe your first one stand by what you do if they want to go to somewhere else and get another test that's fine they can do that but professionally what we would do is if somebody came to me for a test a month ago with this person and I want to know who it was I don't really care about the result but I would like to know who it is professional courtesy I would ring that examiner and say this client of yours has requested I do a second test do you have any objections and why would they want a second test if they said I don't want you to do it that's it, it's finished and that's professional courtesy how hard is it for you Terry to do those tests for people who's wrongly convicted and not get emotionally attached after it you try not to be emotionally attached which I don't in lots of ways I think it's I think it might be me as a person but you cannot form that attachment and I don't also speculate for that person I'll do this interview with you today but I'm giving you facts about Luke Mitchell's case the facts of it who might have done it and those type of things because that's not my job I'll stand by my tests every single day of the week pass or fail many people fail tests but that's their business and I have to be professional enough to tell them and I tell them face to face sometimes they don't want me to have a post test interview and sometimes they do but if I can get them to sit in that seat a little bit longer you often then get a disclosure and a confession not many times it might be 10% of the time but it makes it more satisfying to know that they now realise they've been caught How can people get in contact with you Terry? I have a website which they can contact me through that it's got several phone numbers on my email address etc Just Terry Modellins from Polygraph Services you can find me on Google you can research me find out who I am I talk to people on the phone I've talked to a lot of people out of having a test you often get a especially a young couple I've been together three months and they say I need to have a test my boyfriend doesn't trust me and I just say throw him away and get a new one after that somebody's got a long term relationship and there's a problem then you can try and try and help them out with that Personally I like criminal cases I like to do difficult cases and I will take them and not shy away I wouldn't turn down a job because it's high profile Is this a specific case that you would like to work on and ask questions? Want a polygraph test? I don't hunt for work I don't look around and say I do know that some examiners are phoning up people and saying why doesn't he do a polygraph test that's okay if they get that that's fine but if you're going to do that you need to do it for free because you shouldn't be bandying your services around looking for money if you are I think there's a problem but when you're asked to do a job then you price it correctly and you can't do that job but I would stand by and some jobs I would do for free if I felt that there was injustice and I hate injustice Yeah same I think but listen to your story Terry you put the shiders out a lot of people people would be terrified because a lot of people have did things that they're scared to do even the high profile names that's why maybe they don't agree with polygraph tests because if they could put under it there's a possibility they could fail including myself if I was to put under it with my ex-girlfriends I would be saying you're a fraud and you're a liar there's a lot of shit they don't work because they fear that I maybe had in the past but for anybody that's maybe want closure or want answers contact Terry because what he's doing is unbelievable and if you listen to the facts and look at his cases it's a great thing and hopefully it can get you as more in the future to help more people who've been wrongly convicted and more people who can give peace of mind to maybe the mainstream media who've painted a different picture of them because best let's sell papers but going forward for the future Terry and coming on the show today and telling your story and I really appreciate it and I wish you all the best for the future Thank you Jim Is there anything you'd like to finish up on or all I would say is that I mean if you want to prove your innocence make sure you are innocent because you're not going to pass a polygraph test using a professional examiner and be able to blag your way through to pass the test it's not going to happen so if you've done something wrong you take the test be prepared for the result Yeah thanks Terry No problem, thank you very much