 Welcome to Hawaii, the state of clean energy. Our guest today is Rachel James. Thank you for coming here, Rachel. And I'm Maria Tomei. I'm guest hosting while Jay, both Jay and Sharon are off doing other things. So thank you for coming, Rachel. And I'd like to talk to you today about what we were talking about before, you know, envisioning our communities, envisioning our energy and, you know, how people are involved or could be involved or should they be involved with what we do with energy in Hawaii. Many exciting things. Well, first, thank you for allowing me to be here. It's a topic I care very much about, so I'm happy to share a bit with you. So I guess to start with your first question is what are people doing? Hawaii is fortunate to have a community-based renewable energy program. I think that's a good starting point for how communities can engage with the current electricity utility infrastructure. Thanks. And this is, I know you mentioned it's very important to you, I guess, as an energy justice fellow, you're thinking about these issues from a community point of view. So the law school, William S. Richardson School of Law at UH Mānoa, has an energy justice program. And historically, our program focus has been to engage communities largely for the purpose of community capacity building. And so instead of kind of giving information that's broad and not necessarily specific, we've come to communities on the invitation to receive information about a particular energy topic. So the program started about three or four years ago, and those first couple of years, there was information that was shared about the next-era proposed merger because that was a hot topic. And so some program fellows went onto the North Shore. They did a lot of research. They met with community groups there, and they presented information definitely from a legal perspective, kind of policy-leaning, but just giving a comprehensive overview of what was being proposed to give community members an opportunity to be conversant on the topic. Yeah. So was there a lot of interest in those communities? There was. Again, we came on the invitation, so we came because a community group on the North Shore asked for information. So there was certainly interest already, but they just weren't quite sure where to get the information from, and I'd say the available pathways at that time, either one were unfamiliar to them, or two when they accessed it, it didn't really seem to yield the information they could understand. And so just being able to give some background for Hawaii's utility infrastructure, as well as how that interacted with the current concern, was helpful for the community to get a good handle on what was going on. Yeah, it does sound interesting. Of course, I'm an energy person. Yes. Very interesting for us. Yeah. Yeah. So was it just one meeting? Was it a series? It was a series of meetings. Yeah. So just some introductory information, obviously getting to know the team, were a bunch of lawyers. I wasn't actually on that team, so I'm getting this third party information, but getting to know the students, getting to know the community members, understanding the questions that they had, understanding kind of where their baseline knowledge was, and then doing the research to understand what was currently happening, if and how that could affect the community, if there had been information presented specifically about that community, letting them know kind of where to get information in the future, and really what a change like that could mean for the utility. Yeah. Wow. So was it evenings, weekends, during the weekday? I think they were evening meetings. I don't remember the details. Yeah. Like I'm envisioning the report in my head right now. Yeah. I'm like, no, no, no. Yeah. I can't remember if they were evening meetings. I'm going to assume so, largely because we have classes over the daytime. Yeah. So I'm thinking they were probably evening meetings, just because evening meetings allow community members who aren't necessarily in energy to participate. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Excellent. So that's just so this is continuing. Yeah. So the second project was one on Molokai. Okay. Yeah. And that's been an ongoing effort. So I think Molokai, again, on the invitation of the community, so sustainable or sustainable Molokai, they have longstanding, I'd say, engagement with energy. And they've worked with Hawaii Energy, but then looking more into community energy and community energy planning. They had a connection with the law school and so asked, could some of your folks come out and just kind of do a snapshot of what could be possible here at Molokai and what are some concerns that might need to be addressed if the community wanted to look at community energy planning. So some students went out. There's a report on that on the Energy Justice website as well. And then a colleague of mine and I, we were on Molokai last, I can't remember the month right now. I want to say last November, but last year we'll just do that. We were there, actually it might have been this year. Anyways, I'm sorry we were there and we met with some groups both from around Molokai and as well as around the world with a project that brought together community energy projects really from around the world from Australia, Japan, Denmark, Greece, a few other places. So I get the sense that you think that the community being interested in what's happening on the energy front is a good thing. It's certainly good for us. It gives us an in. So I mean from just outside of the Energy Justice Program. You hear what the community is thinking before planning and really provide an opportunity for collaborative planning. I think the energy transition that we're seeking to implement is one that is quite grand. And to the extent that we can make that a collaborative process where as many parties as possible benefit, and not strictly from a clean energy perspective, but really the benefits both in how a community develops and where things are cited, if there's monetary returns, if there's informational opportunities for communities, there's really a lot of ways that people can benefit from collaborative energy planning. So are the folks who participate in these, you know, how does this work? Do they go because their friends say, hey, we're going to get free food? I mean, how, you know, I mean, there are some people are so busy, you know, basically, you know, having the place to go and something of interest and then having open dialogue, you know, that doesn't happen and just like come and sit for half an hour and have somebody, you know, talk at you. It's complicated. You know, you've got, you know, people, as I said, they're busy, they're doing other things. You know, to have folks come out, you know, from, you know, from the law school side or from the developer side and from the community to discuss things, it seems to me that's, you know, that that's a good thing if you can get it to work. So what are the elements of success or that you've seen? I mean, I'm sure there are lots of models and it probably depends on where. Oh, certainly. There's actually a playbook. What motivates folks to participate? I couldn't speak on behalf of the community members who participated, but I can, I mean, there's a playbook for island community planning that the Rocky Mountain Institute has put forth and there's also, so the law school has also developed, well, not the law school so much, but the energy justice program has developed an energy democracy website where we talk about energy democracy and energy justice and what it means for community energy planning. But so some of the highlights is that we're very reliant on partner organizations. So those different pieces that you're mentioning in the collaboration and kind of herding cats process, that's not just law students doing that, but it's really identifying who in the span of people you have contact to or contact with, rather, are going to be effective in the discussion. And if you know that you can't reach the person that you think needs to be in the discussion, then that's when we lean on our partners. So as law students, we can certainly garner the legal community, the law students just to have people there for like note-taking and distillation and explaining things to people. But getting the broader community involved, we were really reliant on our community partner, which was Sustainable Molokai. Yeah, yeah. Now, just a quick side. Okay. So the way they write their name has the Okina. So it's Sustainable Molokai. Yes. So I was just wondering, is it, if you say Sustainable Molokai, it really sounds Australian. Is that correct? Or do you say sustainable? That is correct pronunciation. Yes. Yeah. Well, I've heard it pronounced both ways. But in creation, it was Sustainable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's neat. It's like, wait, how do we, what's the proper way to? I think they don't mince words about it too much because I've asked that question and they're like, as long as people are referencing us, I think it's okay. But no, so you're correct in Sustainable. Yeah. Yeah. So once they get, you know, folks probably come and listen to what's being thought about or, you know, if there's a choice of one place or another or one technology or another. Oh. But what about other areas of interest? Because I'm sure most people who are interested enough to come and talk about energy want to know what they can do, you know, not just to be there and give input for that moment. But are they also interested in doing things themselves or with their homes or their businesses? So I guess if I give you a framework for how the meeting goes, perhaps that will answer some of the questions that you've asked. So I can speak to Molokai because I was there and in the planning process, that was a day long event. So about 10 to four, 10 to three. And so there is an information sharing portion and then there's a listening portion and it's intentional that way throughout the day, there's information sharing and listening. So if as we're sharing information about the subject matters that we are conversing in, a community wants to go on a, a community member has a question either about what we've shared or if it sparks something that leads in a different direction, they have an opportunity to bring those concerns to the table. And if the, if the capacity is in the room to respond, so we had for this meeting, Half Moon Ventures was there as well as Miko. And so some of the questions we didn't necessarily have a response to you, but the developer did and they stood up in the crowd and responded, which we prepare those community partners for like we hope that you'll be here and if questions come, we hope that you're prepared to respond. But of course, that's nothing that we can say you have to, but we hope that your participation is such that people feel comfortable and you feel comfortable in responding to questions that we haven't necessarily known would come. Yeah. So in answering, people asked definitely what they could do as a community as well as what individually could be available to them and what, what developers had experienced in other developments on the mainland as well as if they had other establishments here in the islands and also asking the utility just kind of community outreach and whom they were speaking with and if they had been there before, perhaps some community members weren't aware of it and like how is that information getting out. So it was really an opportunity both for community members to recognize that many efforts had been undertaken by both developers and the utility as well as sustainable Molokai. So different organizations had undertaken the effort of getting information out, but some community members hadn't known. So better understanding, how do we reach, how do we reach the community more broadly, more effectively? Yeah. So we were able to have a pretty good dialogue around that. And then the closing portion was really an opportunity for people to just share their takeaways for the day and not necessarily for the purpose of inspiring a response, but just to share. Yeah. Well, that's good. Yeah. And that's a, that's a long amount of time. It was, we did have food. This is, you know, yes, a lot of expenditure of energy. It is. So you need some inputs there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what other things do the environmental, sorry, energy justice program folks get involved with? I mean, so in our scholarship at law school, that's the energy justice program is housed under the environmental law program. So we do look at environmental concerns from like an energy perspective. And so myself and another student recently presented at the Hawaii conservation conference. And we spoke about the need for energy development to more inclusively engaged conservation environmentalists and just a broader spectrum of people who are doing efforts to conserve the land. Because I guess a broader effort, you would say, of renewable energy is to ultimately conserve the resources that we have here on earth. But speaking more locally into the things that we see each day and the degradation that people experience from just kind of human traffic, being able to speak with the community of conservationists and environmentalists as well. And to educate them on renewable energy development and how we can collaborate on more successful development, but also to learn some of their, I don't want to say tactics so much, but that's what the word that comes to mind is learn their tactics in really garnering community support for action. And so we spoke about things that are already in Hawaii's laws that are unique to the state that allow that type of kind of creative approach, as well as community based efforts that have shown success in conservation. Yeah, I like the examples of success. We have to take a break right now, but when we come back, let's talk more about that. Sounds good. Thanks. This is Think Tech Hawaii, raising public awareness. Tuesday at 11 a.m. about things that matters to tech, matter to science to the people of Hawaii with some extraordinary guests, the students of our schools who are participating in science fair. So young talents making way every Tuesday at 11 a.m. only on Think Tech Hawaii. Mahalo. Okay, we're back. Welcome back. Rachel James. Thank you so much again for being here on today's Energy Wednesday, Hawaii State of Clean Energy. Now we were talking a lot of examples of success. Yes. How do we define success? I appreciate that question. This is why I think it's so important to engage with communities because success from the perspective of a person who's developed a project or funded it or in some way has placed a project there might not be the same success that a community identifies with. So I think success can be determined in a number of ways, but it's important that it's a collaborative determination and that as many parties as possible agree to what that success is from a diverse interest group. Yeah. So what would be some success, success measures? Is it that nobody's complaining? I mean, I guess that's a great starting point. You know, I think certainly the the the ease with which the process moves forward. Outside of the permitting process, because that's that's something that I don't know can necessarily be governed by good community relationships, but perhaps, but certainly not protest throughout the development. And I remember speaking with I'm going to forget the person right now. Was this on Molokai or? No, it was I think on the Big Island actually. I think it was, I want to say it was Kelly King and if she's watching and I've misquoted, I apologize. But just mentioning the development of their of their plant was without protest and I remember her sharing that the reason for that was because they engaged in community early and one, it wasn't a surprise, but two, it also reflected something that the community thought would actually be well housed there. And so when it actually came about, she was mentioning colleagues asking like, well, like, where are your protesters and she's like, why would I have protesters? So certainly that seems to be one clear identifier of success. I think another is if there's an opportunity for the community to benefit monetarily. So sometimes that can look like a community fund. Sometimes that shared ownership. Sometimes that's communities develop cooperatives. Sometimes that's communities get community centers that have that are, you know, completely zero net energy and perhaps as a learning center for the community, maybe they didn't have one before. So really it can look a lot of different ways. But the primary thing is that the people who are making the decisions for the location have taken the time to speak to as many people from as many backgrounds. Yeah, from the people at the location. Yeah, I can imagine situations where somebody says, oh, I've got to come up with something that community would like, I personally would like X and they go do that. And the community is like, what they did that for? Yeah, no, certainly well intended, but sometimes just doesn't represent the community that is actually receiving the benefit. Right, right. Yeah. So how about other measures that are maybe beyond, you know, the community very often there are these scorecards and report cards, you know, put together by, you know, whoever needs to talk about something sometimes, you know, saying, oh, this place is ranked high on this and low on that. To what extent should a community maybe determine for themselves what they'd like to see and what the measures of success would be, you know, whether it's the community center that folks want, or if it's, you know, somebody at least telling them what the benefit, you know, counting out the carbon dioxide emissions avoided or something like that. Is that part of the conversation or does that get too complicated? I think the basis of conversation is to just get I don't want to say just get input, but you can only dream as far as what you know. And so if a developer comes to the table and they have an understanding of what communities might want and the community has an understanding of what renewable energy can provide. And those understandings come from very different places. They may both come to the table and share something with the other. And the response from each is, gosh, I never thought of that. And it's not so much because either was malinformed so much as just they're only inspired by their own experience. So a lot of community energy planning and the Department of Energy did a report where they did a series of case studies on different community energy planning projects. And in that, I would say less measurements of success so much as things that they found helpful in the process of community energy planning. So they distilled out like nine steps that they felt were essential to having a quote unquote successful community energy planning process. Oh, that sounds good. Yes. And so one of those things is having diverse party input and then having that input early on and having that input sustained throughout the process. Funding is also obviously a large piece. But then having consistent information and having kind of focal points for that information. So not just posting emails or on websites or like, I did a flyer at a community center, but really making sure your information is getting to the constituency that you're seeking to inform and being available for information, responding to the information that you've sent out. Yeah. So talking about the different viewpoints of what is success, how do you get input? How do you measure success? A question also comes to mind. And I don't know if anybody studied this, but there seems to be a natural evolution. It's like we are thinking about the things we are normally thinking about. And so people, when you talk about energy, very often think, oh, my energy bill or what I pay for fuel or how much fuel I use or how much energy I use. And so they're thinking about it from a monetary, personal, or family finance point of view. And then you've also got the other view of, well, carbon emissions, and we need to have, you know, development of renewable resources to displace the need to be burning the fossil fuels. And so is there any measure of how that view of what your individual choices are or what your individual energy uses gradually gets informed by, wow, I'm having an impact on not only my local economy, but also the state's accomplishment of its goals and, you know, the whole global carbon thing. Is that something that is measured in any way? Because it seems to me that it's been happening. I mean, you didn't use to hear a lot about, you know, the bigger, the global concerns, you know, and the climate change. And now you do. So something somewhere seems to have been changing that way. Do you notice that in communities too? Or is that something somebody could do a research project on? I don't know. I want to make sure I'm following your question. Yeah, just the change, you know, you come to a meeting saying, I want lower, I want, I want to spend less on energy and you may leave it saying, wow, you know, this, this is more, more, this is broader than what I'm paying next month. You know, I may be paying less and doing good things. That's the best. Yeah, I think they begin to care. Many perspectives come to the table. So while there are certainly people who are concerned about what they're going to pay or how much they can not pay. You also have people who are really concerned about the environment, while they may not necessarily have the means to participate in what's readily available or programmatically or in tariffs with the current utility infrastructure. That hasn't lessened their kind of firm desire to be able to participate in the process. So when what's been exciting is for people who have that predisposition to then learn that there is also potential for monetary benefit. That's the two for one that you mentioned where it's like, wow, yeah. So that's, I think I certainly can't speak for others, but I can say many people do kind of think of the community like that identifier as though like it's very singular and that the community will have a perspective. And when I speak about community and when I speak about the success of those projects that are based in community, it's really because the fabric of the community has been represented in the process. I like that phrase. I like that because it is, you know, the fabric of it is. It's a bunch of different folks coming together from different directions together. Yeah, so one person may be aware of what several things are being discussed. But yeah, I like that. So what do you see as coming up? Can you say what? Oh, certainly. Well, so Hawaii, as I mentioned, has the CBRE program, Community-Based Renewable Energy. And so there are applications currently open for subscriber organizations. And what I think is unique about our program is that the subscriber organization is really kind of the space for creativity. And so that's the space where a developer, a community group, a series of community groups, nonprofits, where that can really look a lot of different ways. And I think that's a space where Hawaii can really be creative right now. The program has a pretty set infrastructure as far as how the utility, like how the utility is paying people and what your credit is going to be, but who that benefits and who is engaged in that development process of where the development is located, what size it is, and kind of who the players are and who's going to be benefiting. That's something that's fully within the sphere of the subscriber organization. So I'm interested to see how Hawaii plays with that. And I think there's some pretty creative folks at the table. Oh, good. Yeah, glad to hear that. I know back when we were looking at that originally, many, many years ago. Yes. It's been an effort. They're talking about the community-based projects. Yes. A lot of folks were like, oh, I got solar covered parking. I want shade for my car. Maybe it's an electric car or maybe it's an electric bus or maybe it's electric bicycles. But we want shady parking lots. It was funny. There was so much enthusiasm. I mean, I like shady parking lots, too. If you're going to have a parking lot, you know, it would be nice if the sun was being directed to some useful purpose. No, and that's that's where the community or as I said, the subscriber organization can really be creative. So the first phase is strictly solar panels. But we're hopeful and as identified by the tariff, there should be in the second phase opportunities for other not only generation sources, but pairing with storage as well. Yeah. Yeah. So we'll see. Yeah. So are those, if a community or a group of some sort wants to talk to folks at your energy justice center, do they send an email? You said you have a website. We do. And I should have brought the website to tell you what it is. But if you Google search energy justice program, William S. Richards in School of Law, you'll certainly find that website. Yeah. And then contacting the environmental law program again is what houses the energy justice program. So the email information there is also a ready contact. And people who are interested can also just contact me. And that's Rachel. Well, rjames9 at Hawaii.edu. Excellent. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess you're looking forward to seeing what folks come up with and working together to develop some good projects. Indeed. Yeah. So do you only focus on O'ahu? I know you mentioned Moloka'i. So it seems like there's something. Is it a statewide initiative? The energy? Well, so Hawaii's law school is the state's law school. So while we're focused, I would say on the state we're located in Honolulu. So by virtue of our location, our immediate access points are here on island. But to the extent that we have partners on other islands, we certainly look forward to that outreach as well. So Moloka'i, we have a strong partner there. We've been there. And a developing partnership with Maui. And then I'd say those are our strongest at present. But we've got a graduate who's working with some communities on Hawaiian homelands on the Big Island. So developing partnerships. Yeah. Yeah. Do you ever work with the counties? I mean, we only have about a minute left. Oh, OK. But because I'm thinking transportation, you know, you probably got limited resources. And so could there be like a Skype or a Zoom type of meeting? Or something. That seems possible in one minute time. Yeah. That would be energy efficient on the transportation side as well. Yeah. No, that certainly seems possible. We've recently, a new director has accepted the position. So Richard Wallsgrove, formerly with Blue Planet Foundation, is now the Energy Justice Program. Well, that is not the specific title. Whatever. That, yeah. So he is now the director there. Oh, exciting time. Yes, definitely. So what he has in store, we have yet to see. But just historically, he's been super supportive of our efforts. So I figure we'll probably carry on the same vein as well as some new things. OK. Well, thank you so much. It's been very interesting. So you heard it here. Energy Justice Program fellow, Rachel James, telling us about some of their successes, how they determine success, and the importance of the community being involved in discussing what to do and how to do it and feeling a sense of ownership or at least appreciating the benefits that can come to the state as a whole when we reach our energy objectives. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. Thank you very much.