 this morning we're asking is that character that you saw there on your screen racist joining me Ash Sarkill senior editor and Navara media and Manic Gavinda who is a writer and arts mentor and who has his Free the Springfield One t-shirt on in support of Apu this morning. It's interesting Ash, Apu has been part of The Simpsons since it started back in 1990. Is the character racist? So I'm not one of those people that thinks that if you're South Asian and you like The Simpsons that you must hate yourself on some level because it's so racist because of the character of Apu. I don't take that view. What I think is that comedy has changed a lot in the intervening nearly 30 years so while in 1990 when there's a dearth of South Asian comedy writers or actors you know this idea of Hank Azaria a white guy giving the voice to Apu yeah it's kind of funny but nearly 30 years later the writing feels a bit lazy a bit stereotyped and it has had some negative real world effects on South Asian people so there've been many times where I've left a pub or you know been walking down the street and someone's done the Apu voice just yelling it at me and that's clearly not the writer's intention of The Simpsons. I mean The Simpsons has I think enriched all of our lives in some way. It's a cultural institution and long may it continue to be so but I think it is definitely time for a change. Manik do you think it is a lazy crude stereotype or actually does Apu as a character have more depth than that? He's got a lot more depth than that I mean he has an Indian accent you know and so many people immigrants from India who work as shopkeepers who opened small businesses have an Indian accent so there's nothing stereotypical about that that's that's reality. I think he's got a lot more depth what's wonderful about Apu is that he really is a kind of blue collar immigrant American hero I think excellent degree, excellent qualifications. He did arrive as an illegal immigrant but then naturalized to become an American citizen so he holds this dual identity of being Indian and American quintessentially both and I think very much part of the community of The Simpsons. He's made good friends there that's why he decided to stay in the community. Yeah actually that is a very positive light. Apu is painted in he's hard working he got his US citizenship he loves America he loves his job he works hard is that is that not a positive take then for people to watch The Simpsons look at Apu and go well yeah actually he is a positive image of Southeast Asia and immigrants. I mean I absolutely don't think that this character has been written out of malice right I'm not an Apu truther by any stretch of the imagination but in some early interviews from the 90s when Hank Azaria is talking about how he came up with Apu's accent he says like I just wanted to make it as offensive as possible and so that Indian accent and you know lots of people my own when you look at all the other characters as well you look at the the police chief you look at the local politician you look at Homer Simpson himself you know the caricature of middle America big potbelly big guzzling you know a bit rough with his son. The difference is that that's not going to have real world effects for people in the same way because like I said the character of Apu is written when you don't really see very many other images of South Asians particularly in America and I think now after we've had the Mindy project after we've had the career of you know Haru Kondabulu and others we've got different expectations of our comedy. Okay so in that sense then Manik how can we modernize Apu rather than get rid of him because then you won't have any representation on screen at all does he need to be updated? All the characters in The Simpsons have not aged over the last you know nearly 30 years so it doesn't feel I mean they are frozen in time in many ways although they respond to a lot of contemporary issues. Would all this die down if it was an Indian actor voicing Apu? Well I mean you know Hank is a great voice actor you know he's an award-winning voice actor and he does a number of characters I think we should you know if he wants to do it and if The Simpsons producers want to keep him that they should keep him. He has said that he's open to the voice actor being changed and another thing that he himself has suggested is diversify the writer's room. I've been blessed enough to work in a writer's room a couple of times and when it had a range of people from different backgrounds people were firing on all cylinders you had really smart really funny you know really on the nose comedy writing in that kind of situation. This was a point that was made by somebody on Twitter yesterday what is the difference between Apu in The Simpsons and a British comedy like goodness gracious me where they have very strong accents and the whole Indian culture is overplayed and they poke fun at themselves. What's the difference? For me it's a very different thing when you are making fun of your own culture and then you're showing it to a wider audience because it's you being in control of it. Humour is a great means of social cohesion people getting to know each other but you can only do that when it's someone of that background finding the foyable. Does that mean we can't make fun of each other anymore? The worry is that then you have to basically stick in your own lane about you know characters that you write that you know I can only write about an Indian Asian character because that's my cultural background that would really narrow creativity and comedy and arts generally if we are only allowed to speak from our own experience or make fun of our own cultures. Yes the stain your own lane but isn't that the point of who representing the fact that you know he hasn't stained his own lane he's come to America and explored that culture and you know blended in. But do you think that if you had a diverse writer's room for The Simpsons and you had perhaps a South Asian voice actor for Apu that the writer would get worse or better. I mean let's be real none of us have enjoyed an episode of The Simpsons after season nine season 10 if you're being generous. This thing about it being frozen you know frozen in time is that the writing has become more and more sort of outlandish in an attempt to find something funny and it's really I think lost to what made it great and I think in an attempt for this like I said this pop cultural institution which I love I wouldn't watch anything else when I've got a hangover. In order for it to be revived I think it needs an injection of new blood. I mean Ash you've amazed me there because you're saying that everyone in the writer's room isn't yellow which you know everyone in The Simpsons is. I mean Manic what is the answer you know does The Simpsons have to conform because you've got other shows I mean it's a bit dated but it's from the same era as The Simpsons you've got South Park which you know is massively offensive and goes so far the other way. You've got other cartoons that you know are more inclusive. The Simpsons has its own little niche. Yeah and I think The Simpsons was a pioneering programme. It has you know opened the doors for lots of other great animation comedy writers and if people want to create new characters then let's they should be pitching that to the producers and to the TV stations and looking for new stories. I don't think that you have to put everything onto The Simpsons show to change representation. Well one thing we can agree on is hashtag save a poo. Nobody wants to see the end of a poo. Manic Gavinda and Ash Tarka thank you very much.