 Thank you all for coming tonight. I should say that many of you know it is a special evening for me personally, because Sympidot is a very close friend and colleague, and someone for whom I have enormous respect. He is currently teaching at the Department of Archaeology of the Royal University of Fine Arts, which is the alma mater of many people in the room. He is also currently completing a PhD, a long-lasting PhD project which many of you will identify with, which is a fascinating piece of work and I think will make a very important contribution to the field of Southeast Asian art. He is also a very active member of the Ministry of Culture at the moment in Phnom Penh and doing some very important work, which I see obliquely in the research that he is presenting here tonight. So I thought I would just say a little bit about the research as I have understood it in a sort of preliminary viewing of it. Just a couple of words about it. It seems to me that he is doing some very interesting work on what could fall under the large rubric of localization. Thinking, I think, in very interesting and somewhat new ways about processes of localization. So something at least for the students who have been working with me over the course of the year to keep in the back of their minds, I hope, as you listen to his work here. And then also, and this is where I see some of his work in the Ministry of Culture over the past decade in Phnom Penh coming into play. That is, he's effectively dismantling this artificial distinction that we make between tangible cultural heritage and intangible cultural heritage. That is, because UNESCO is out there, because ministries are out there, and because art historians are out there, we tend to think there is something called material cultural heritage, which is distinct from immaterial cultural heritage, or tangible versus intangible. And in fact, he's responsible for doing a lot of the development of Cambodian governmental requests to international organizations for protecting intangible cultural heritage over the past couple of years. But that work, and including the work that you'll be seeing tonight, demonstrates very effectively that you can't think the one about the other, that the two really, really work together and they're not separable, and you have to be agile enough in your research to be thinking about how they work together. Today in particular, thinking about how the art is embedded in and responding to and developing out of play, as he calls it, in language and ritual. So two things that we think of as being immaterial, but they are materialized in very, very important ways in what we're looking at here. So those two things, intangible, intangible and localization are really at work. And then the last thing that I see coming out of his work is methodologies for reading narratives. Again, you'll be familiar, a lot of you will be familiar with the methodologies and with the kinds of questions he's asking and with some of the people who he's talking about and how they think about narrative. I'm thinking Barrelief's narratives or mural narratives. I'm making a kind of indistinction between painted murals and sculpted murals at the moment. But he's thinking about, some of it will be quite familiar to you, but I think he also brings in some new approaches to reading narrative which is really potentially of real importance. So in hoping that Sopiedet's English shines tonight and all of this will be easily accessible to all of you, please join me in welcoming Sopiedet. Thank you very much, Professor Thompson for very kind introductions. And I hope you bear with my English and then I try to explain. This work, I have been working in Angkor and other temples, like many others of my colleagues try to understand what exactly the temple itself, what it means to the Cambodian people right now by then and then by looking at how can we decoding or deciphering the Barreliefs and stuff like that. And then this is one of the works that I have been observed through my observations by going to the temples and to see why they are curving these reliefs. What does it mean to people by then and what are we looking at at them now? And this is what I am trying to bring to you some kind of new ways of looking at it but not just only look at the art objects but try to bring other elements. For example, what language can play in it and how rituals can shape the artists or the artisans at the time. What inspires one another in that way? So I think many of you have been visiting the temples in Cambodia or in other countries. You might be familiar with the place where the decorations or the motifs are depicted. For example, it is on the lintels or in pediments, pilasters, flints on the ground, columns, door james, etc. in those places. And sometimes it is very hidden. Why is there a point in the dark side, in the dark place, in a very hidden underground or something like that? So the picture of that motif such as, for example, florals. Is it flowers, motifs of flowers? Does it make sense why they are picking it up? Those are the questions that I am very curious about learning, about understanding what inspires picking up that kind of motif. There might be some things. Some of them are non-narratives. Some of them are narratives. What are the stories that they are talking about? Today, at this time, I am not focusing on non-narratives and floral motifs or some other elements but to focus on narratives. What are those, what were the release for? Why are they using it? What are they for? Why is it important? Some of the scholars, Robert Browns, those of you who have done the research in art history might be familiar with his name. In the work that he is associated with the Buddhist art he is just saying something like those releases that are on the temple it doesn't mean, would not intend to tell the stories but they have its own function. It doesn't mean they cough and then it's gone but they have its own function. To him, he took it as the iconic function. They play the roles as an icon, as the presence of the gods or something like that. In a way that he looks closer into Cambodian context he works on Angkor Wat in particular. The way that he sees Angkor Wat, for example, the bar relief is very long. Sometimes 60 meters long, 50 meters long and it's about 500 meters in total of the carvings around the third galleries of Angkor Wat that is called reliefs galleries. But when he looked at it, he posted, he said that it might not be read by walking by them. And then what is the point? Is it exactly like that? I try, I try to understand whether it makes in such a sense or not. To my understanding, the ways that I observe I see it as when the bar reliefs are carved they are carved to, it means the presence to show, to demonstrate the present. The present of what? The present of an event, the present of animals, the present of a god, a story of the king, something like that. Why is that so? Because if you imagine the imagination of Cambodian people the temple itself is symbolizing the universe. It means that it is whatever happening it happening at that time. We are in the Indian cycle of time. It is a kaopa. It means like the four yogas, one it has been destroyed and then it happened again. So this is in particular moments that it is happening. A story, for example, a story that is depicted. For example, this is the bar relief at Angkor Wat showing King Surya Varaman II in the 12th century. He is giving the audience to that. But the inscription itself saying that that is giving the posthumous name of the king saying that the king who has gone to the highest world of vision already, it means this is the record. This is the record of that time, at that time, at that time in that space, at that moment, in that universe, within that exactly order that what I see, why it is represented. It has to be like that. It has to be in the ways that everyone is in that circumstance and in that time and space. And this is also exactly the same. This is to show the procession of the king. And this is the battle of Kurukset in the Mahaparata. That is the final battle between the two cousins, the Kaurava and Pandava. They are fighting one another. Why they are showing it? One of the scholars, Thomas Maxwell, he worked on the bar reliefs like that. He made a proposition that the bar reliefs of Angkor what itself is representing time, the full time, the Kirtayuga, the best one, the Dvaraparyuga, Tretayuga, Dvaraparyuga, and Kaliyuga, which is now, that is the representation of time that is designed in Angkor. We don't have many examples like that. But if you are going to, for example, Baiyuan Temple, when you walk in, Cambodian counting from inside out, from outside into, you know, like one, two, three. You are approaching the high end, the high end number, the better is in that case. So Baiyuan is the temple that built at the end of the 12th century, beginning of the 13th century. When you are walking in, first you encounter the bar reliefs that depicted daily life. Why are daily life depicted over there? And then you are approaching the epics, you know, like themes of God associated with ascetic, associated with mythologies and stuff like that. So when you are getting higher, it gets the emptiness, you know, like that. So my point here is that it is something that you show the presence, the presence of something in time and space, in that universe, which is symbolized by the temple itself. In Cambodia, we call that, you know, like in Ptom, the mountain, it means the Meiru, the Mount Meiru, that is what they symbolize. And also, why they are depicting, you know, like certain episodes are depicted. The ways that I am reading it, and not declaring or claiming that I am correct, but that is what I try to understand myself, too. Based on some inscriptions, this is the earliest inscriptions that known to have one of the earliest, I'm not saying the earliest, the 6th century, the inscription that's talking about one of the Brahmins made the copies of the Burana, Ramayana, and Paratha. At that time, we didn't call Mahabharata like us, we call it Paratha. And then, why he made the copies of that, he made the copy and then it providing to give it to the temple and ask them to recite it uninterruptedly, you know, like a recitation of that story. And what is the point of reciting those stories for? There are certain, I try to understand, this is, that is the 6th century, there are evidence of saying, you know, in the 12th, in the 11th century, the king saying that, you know, reciting the Mahabharata, Burana, Ramayana, those are to cleanse all the sins. You know, like there are certain functions in recitations and also depicting of it. And why am I raising this? Because I see the depictions of an apex. It is the recitation continuously at the site, at the temple, that's what I see. I'm not saying that I'm correct, but that's what the way that I see. Why is that so? So this is what I'm thinking. And to, back to Robert Brown, and I think that, you know, those narratives are mean to tell the stories, or at least a reminder and add me more, something that you see and then, oh, I know, that is a story, you know, like something that wakes you up or telling you, informing you about what is going on. And this is a by-release at Uncle Wat again. It's very typical examples of it. This is the scene about heaven, heaven and heaven. We have 32, 32 heavens and 33 heavens in that. So I'm saying that it tells the story because they're writing, they're inscriptions. Inscriptions telling you, they're inscriptions saying these two paths about leading you to heaven. What is the point of having it? It was not meant to tell the stories about something. And this is, you know, these are the inscriptions that informing us about something, you know, like, or at least to my understanding, if I might think of it, at least it's a point of reference. You say, oh, you know, like if you want to see the hell to go to Uncle Wat, you see the by-release, that's something that is reminding or it tells you about what is happening. And it's also, you know, like, it is again. This is hell, it's called abhiji, abhiji. And then it is the, you know, descriptions of what is going on, you know, like, what made you to fall into hell? It is hell. And it says that if you are, you have properties, you are good enough, but you still do some, you know, like bad deeds, you know, like ripping off someone else, even though you are rich, and then that is going to the hell called abhiji. And then there are many hells that have that short inscription. And what is that for? You know, if you say no one is going to read, maybe some people will read, you know, or someone that is written down and say, go to that place and then you see. It's a point of reference, and it's also something that tells you the story too. That's my argument. I'm not going totally against him. And one of these, these reliefs about, we don't know, but the inscription tells us that the deer is his fish, his food. That is for the inscription that tells. You know, if it is not meant to tell, why there is a confirmation that you make sure that you know that it is, make sure that you understand that this is, the deer, it doesn't mean that the fish making sin, you know, by eating the deer. But that is the law. You eat, the deer is my food, you know, it doesn't mean that I commit the crime or sins in that case. So why is it telling you that? Because I think that the way that it meant to tell something, it doesn't mean that you know, people are going to walk by. In the 12th century, this is another thing. This is a door frame. And this is the processions of the king. In the 12th century, by Yuan Temple, famous one, if you have the opportunity, you will see with them. But you see that from the backside. They meant to tell you that they make the right turn, but where? We do not know. One important, important even, that happened to these people, that they really remembered and kept it. You know, they walk and they go inside. And to my understanding, it is connected to the second gallery inside. There is a victory section, one small victory section there. And I think that is somewhat associated in that case. So it meant to tell something. And going back to the 16th century, 16th century, Angkor Wat is not finished. Angkor Wat is big, but the northeast corner section of the gallery, the relief gallery, was not done. And when the king in the 16th century called Ong Zhang, he came and then he said that, he commissioned for the carving of that spot. And what is important, they call that narrative, they call that place, Chlak Han Nyei. Nyei, it meant to speak in Khmer. Chlak, it meant to carve or to sculpt. So sculpt the speaking panel. That is the speaking panel. And why it is speaking? Who are they speaking to? That is something that, you know, and also the same, the two inscriptions, this is another one, Chlak Nyei. You sculpt speaking, you know, or sculpt narratives. And jumping into the modern time, if you go to the Buddhist monastery or something, you see the mirror painting, you know, like you go to worship hall and you see the levels, you know, like someone, someone. But there is a small handwriting of writing saying, nithka, it means this is when, you know, like this is when it means to tell, or at least to remind you of something, remind you of that. So this is my, my try, my attempt to see whether the body leaves are, you know, trying to speak, trying to tell really the narratives in that case. So this is the main questions that I'm looking for. Of course, they are body leaves. You go in temple and you see, but what inspired the sculptors at the time? What are the source of the inspirations? Why are they picking up this thing? Why not? Why not the others? Some of the Indian scholars, Vasuta Narayanan, they were surprised by seeing Cambodian were so obsessed with the churning of the Milky Ocean. They say, why is that? And you know, and then you can, if you attempt to understand that there are some reasons for that. There are some reasons for, for agricultural society like Cambodia. That's another question that we can trace to, but that's something like that. What are those source of inspirations in that case? In the ways that I'm trying to look at, I'm trying to look at this. I'm not using only, you know, Hindu mythology book, Indian Hindu mythology book, but I try to understand looking at the inscription, you know, like that happened at the same time, using what is the ritual, you know, like all kinds of sources that, in order to help me understand what was the reason behind it. This is one of the examples. Very examples. This is the argument between andologists, you know, like they're working on it. This is one of the, I'm called what again, because it's happening. They ask the question, because in Mahabharata and Ramayana, there is a story of marriage competition, you know, like it's both competition for a groom, for a groom. And this is, this is the scholars try to ask, is this the Swayamvara du Traupati, it's in Pali, you know, in French, Swayamvara is like the contest. In Mahabharata or in Ramayana? Some say, oh, in Mahabharata, why? Because Arjuna, shooting an arrow at the turning wheel, like that. But Arjuna, at that time, didn't dress like the king, like the prince, because he abandoned the kingdom. So those are the main questions. And when you look at the, they say, okay, if not the Mahabharata, Arjuna, so who is that? It must be Rama. So when they say Rama, oh, Rama doesn't shoot an arrow. Rama break the boat. See? So what is that? What exactly is that? The stories is about, it must be something. And then if you can trace it, I post this, I'm not trying to answer this, exactly the question, but there must be something related to the king himself. So this is, you know, one of the example, when you use the text, the Indian text and the Cambodian mythology, sometimes it's awkward, it doesn't fit in. Another question. This is it coming through the question. Many scholars post the question, why there is a crocodile right there? A crocodile right there. And some say chameleons, you know, like they can transform, but I don't see it as a chameleon. It is a real crocodile with something, you know, like. It's not, the Cambodian know quite well, and then I'm sure. They cannot make the sculpture of lions because they have never seen, but tiger or crocodile, I'm sure they can do it. They can do it quite well in that case. And this is, why? Why there is a, this is the Piksha Nathamurthy when the Shiva in the pine forest, you know, like he was naked and testing the ascetic and stuff like that, and ascetic's wife following him, you know, like he's so beautiful. So that is not, some say, oh that is just the way of take it for granted, you know, like okay, that's okay. It's just a local invention, you know, like that's a local invention. Of course it is a local invention to my interpretation. They say that there might be some proposer, the local myth, saying that that is the Ravana transform himself into a lizard so that he can listen to the cold that break it into the house. But actually, no. If that is the Ravana transform into, he listen to Andhra, he is at the Andhra palace listening to the cold because at that time they have the, you know, like a digital cold and they press him and they go into that. So that is what some proposition, but if that's so, why there is another temple in Prasad Pravan, Vishnu himself, not Andhra. You can say that, you know, maybe Andhra, but this is not Andhra. This is Vishnu. Why there is the crocodiles again? You know? And again, this is the crocodile. And again, this is a woman, a woman right here. Why there is a crocodile on the top? This is, and that is from my observation. When you see the crocodile, you see the door frame right here. You see the door, the door frame. And here also the door frame, I'm not able to show you here. And you hear, you see the door frame. And here you see the door frame. I study some Sanskrit. So I'm familiar with some words. And it happens. It happens that the term, Sanskrit term, Nacra, it means both. It means crocodile. And it means the upper timber of door frame. I don't know why, you know, they have it happen. And I look into, you know, like it might be hallucinated or something, but, and then I look at modern time, you know, like looking at another example in the contemporary practices. There is a place, you know, like this is the joke. And on that part, like right here, it's called Kpagapur. You know, it's called Kpagapur. I'm trying to explain that. In Khmer, the beam, the beam on the door, the upper timbers of the door, it's called Pnum. It's just like, num is this, and it is the beam of the terms of that term. So it might concretize what I thought, you know, like it's substantiate what I, you know, like, I think that I'm not quite 100% sure that that is exactly the same. But I think this is something that Khmer play with words because I see other examples too, in that case. This is another, you know, like, it's not a play, exactly the play of words, but it is the, you know, this is the Vishnu Trivikrama. You know, the name inspired there, because this is the, the names of this, the god of this temple is called Tri-Lukyanatha, I mean the master or the lord of three worlds. And being the lord of three worlds one point narrated or tell in Hindu mythology as the Vishnu Trivikrama, meaning Vishnu with three pairs, you know, a pair, he step one, one pairs cover the universe, the earth, the heavens, and then the other part it is just on the waters. And so there is the Vishnu with, so I think the names itself inspired the scouting of this or that scouting of this can inspire. So it might be something that is, you know, like working in, in the ways at that time. And other things, this is also just to give you, you know, like that kind of, some kind of approach or methodological how to, the ways that we, we learn history or interpretations of the, the sides of the ground. So when you go to Uncle Tom, the capital in the 12th, in the 12th century, Uncle Tom himself in uncle area, when you walk by, you walk by the giant causeway. It's called giant causeway, the giant. And for those of you who familiar with Hindu mythology, you buy, you know, it tick in your mind knowing that this is the churning of the Milky Ocean. Exactly the same, exactly. It is the churning of the Milky Ocean. But when you closely observe at it, it's two Nagas. It's not one. When you churn, you use Vasuki, the Vasuki, the one that churn the Milky. But this is two. Why it is two? Some interpretation is pretty straightforward. It's saying that Pormuth or Zopse des saying that this is the passage. When the passage, there is two Nagas, symbolizing the symbol, the, the rainbows. The rainbow is the passage that lead from earth to heaven. And that's correct. Because inside the temple, it's called Bayon. Bayon is the name that is given. It's a corrupted way or Cambodian pronunciation of Sanskrit Vajrayanta, it meaning the palace of Andhra. Which is exactly the same. You are going to heaven. And what is the point of having the giant with the Nagas? The question is asked. I asked it. Why? Churning of the Milky Ocean, the ultimate goal is to have the Amrita, something that make you live or eternal, eternity, you know, like immortality. So that is the bottom, the bottom line of churning of the Milky Ocean. It happens, the temple that have this kind of design, there are only three to my knowledge. One is Prakang in Angkor. The other is Bantichang and Angkor Thong. There are three. Why am I raising the three of those sites? Those sites are associated or involved with attack or the battlefields based on the inscriptions. It means it was attacked. This is based on correct or not, but there in 12th century, Eleven 77 there were an attack by Cham. So this might be the design, a ritual design, architectural, ritual design to make the city invincible. Like in Sanskrit, they say Ajutsya that cannot be attacked. So this might be something that embedded with the notion. And I'm trying to learn and I'm trying to understand if you have some ideas that we can. Another example that the approach of understanding, the art, the word, the ritual that involved with one another, it links. This is the bull. You can see it. It made out of, they call it a bronze. It's bronze or silver, a bull that is made. But why is that made up of that bronze? We look at the inscriptions. I look at the inscriptions. There are certain inscriptions of the king that early in the 7th century. They say that he conquered places and he made the bull out of stone. What is the point of saying made the bull out of stone or out of silver? What is the point? What is the significance in that? It turns out, it turns out the bull is not a simple bull. It is the symbolizing the tarama. The tarama in that sense has been ordered. The order into the societies. So, these inscriptions saying that he made, what is it? He, the king, Ishan Alwaraman, erected an image of Varusapar, which is the bull, made of silver just like an intact image of tarama. So, the bull is the tarama itself. So, making the bull, it is kind of implying the ritual of making the bull so that the society stays in order. That is, like, and in Cambodia, now we don't say, now we are living in Kali yoga. In Kali, we say, kala-yuk. You know, like we are now. But when they, we don't say, oh, now we are living in kala-yuk. If you say that, it means the society is, you know, robbery, incest or whatever, you know, like this order. But when the king come to coordinate it, it means that he, the order of society is intact. You know, like, everything is in order. So that is why I think that there is some involvement in rituals of this. So all of this is to say that, you know, there are many ways that we can look at it. We can understand art through rituals, through languages. So that is the way that it can be, it can be done. And other things. You know, churning of the Milky Oceans, right? The oceans. And churning, they say, they use a mandara as the mountain. So they, I think Cambodian might be a little bit, you know, they might, like many other people, they smile. How can you make the mountain to churn, you know? It must be a stick. And that is a stick, you know, like a mandara, it become a stick like this. And churn. And it's churn, it inspire, you know, this is the ocean. The ocean is in the pot. Professor Thompson just, you know, like reminding me, a pot maybe, it symbolizing the ocean as well, you know, like receptacles of water. Of course. But why, there might be something playing along. That is the idea that's correct. When a pot, in daily life, you churn the butter, the butter. You know, like for the clarified butter, especially Brahmins at the time, you know, like they need the, the butters for certain kind of, of, of, of ritual, especially Hindu ritual, you know, like you have to put the butters in the, in the fire and stuff, like that. So it's very significant. These are the Brahmins at churning. And it's churning, exactly the same. It inspired one another, you know, that, that is the way that we can, you know, like not straight look from one angle, but we try to understand from different angles, I think it's, it's much, much better. And other things. This is a, a ritual. I found it in the, the term, this is the Sanskrit term, Sanskrit word, nirvap, nirvapana. It means to scatter. And in India, I, I, I observe and as I learn, when you made the offering to the ancestors, this is the, they used the rice bowl, the pinda that made, as the offering to the ancestors, or to the deceased. When you make the offering, you make it just simple like that. But this is to scatter. And in modern time, I'm not trying to say modern time Cambodia is exactly like in, in the past, but there is a, you know, like connections. It's not the, there is a continuity that you can see, that you can trace from the modern time that to, to understand the past, the, the ancient, ancient time. And then from the ancient time you can understand the present behavior as well. So this is maybe nirvapa, nirvapa, nirvapa, the term, that make, in the modern time, the ritual that performed for the ancestors, it's called, in modern times, it's called pyongban. In NDA, it's called strata. You, you make the performing, strata performing for the, the ancestors. This is the, the rice bowl that you are showing. The term that inspired. You know, like, I think the term that inspired in that case. Now, let me come to our topics today. This is a, it's just a, you know, like, but the, the topic is, I'm trying to look, you know, make my observation of the temple. There are certain temples that they have very specific and very well programmed for construction. Like Badesray, one of the example of Badesray. I think some of you might be familiar with the history of the Badesray. Badesray is the 10th century by you can call him a royal guru, a royal Brahman. He has a, his blood is associated with the kings as well. And his name is Yajnavarahai. He is the royal preceptor, Raja Guru, the Guru of the kings. And the build of this temple with, in in collaboration with his brother, Vishnu Kumara, the name itself. But the temple is at some point, but his name is Vishnu. Vishnu Kumara, his sister, Janavi, and his, I don't know the term, god brothers, you know, like Tharama Sampong, Sampong, they're binding by the Tharama. It's not by blood, but binding by Tharama. So those are the sponsors of the temple. And that in the main shrine, in the, the main god is called Sri Puvana, it means the three world, Maheshwara, the lord, the great lord of the three world. And in the form of Linga, we know it because of the inscriptions. And there are several other gods that based on the inscriptions, we know, the goddess Bhakishwari, Vijayaguru, that is the, that is the image or statues that, statues or something that is for the group. And also the site are based on the inscriptions. It's very famous, very popular. In, it's popular, we know based on the inscriptions up until the 14th century that the sites have been visited and revisited with a very special purpose, to get the waters or something. So in, in that, that is the, what we know. The temple is not, it doesn't mean that it's sustained in a, in a good way, but at some point, it, you know, like deteriorated, you know, the call, the worship is not like it was. And then the king, Surya Varman II, he, knowing that the temple was not, you know, in good shape, he ordered, over he, he, he gave that plot of land with temples to that one of his guru, so that his guru can restore, restore the call, the worship, and restore the temple based on the inscription. And to restore, and I say that the, the, the Yajnavara is the most famous because they say, I restore, I restore the temple, Rukka Komadaenai Pre-Guru Veng. It's like, as if it was the time of that guru at the, the first, the founder. So it, you know, like it, from 12th century and then traced back to 10th century. It's quite a, a long and then famous site. And this is also something that I will touch up on a little bit on it. Some scholars, based on those ins, inscriptions, saying that the carving that we are going to look at it in later, are not carved at their time because some of the reason that they pose, they, they propose were that in India doesn't exist. You know, the manual of making it doesn't exist. And comparing to other temple, Praeruk, for example, Praeruk is the built by the king, um, um, before he died, a year before he died, that temple was inoculated, Bantisray was inoculated. So that king, that his temple doesn't have buried leaves. So why, why do we have at Bantisray with the very careful, uh, systematics like this? So this is one of the reasons why they say, oh, it might not be possible. It might be in later period, maybe 11th century or 12th century. So this is the main reason. I will touch up on this. For you, for you, of you that have never been to Cambodia, I think most of you have been there. This is Bantisray temples. It's a, um, in my advertising, they say, of the, of the lectures, I say something, you know, the jewel of client art. It's very, it, it, mignon, it's like, cute. It's cute. It's stylish. And, it, it beautiful, worth going. This is a, you know, the carving, it's very delicate, you know, like it, if you look at it, you cannot believe that it is made, it must be a, a visva karma, boom, and then make it happen. You know, like it's, the carving itself, it's carved everywhere, anywhere. It's like, amazing. I'm not advertising for you to go, but, you better go. This is, you know, like, just to show you some examples of the, um, the reliefs. My observation, this is the narratives that I observed. It's very systematic, and it's, it's clear that there are themes involved in it. One of them is killing themes. And the killing itself, it's not just narrative, but also animals involved in it, like killing. I will, you will see, we will see the examples. And the other is the purification, that the, the meat, the narratives is used in order to some sort of convey the ideas of purification. Any others is the name of the temple, associated with the name of the temple, or the names of the parents of the founder. I will explain to that. This is what this, you know, like, um, in terms of copyrights, I haven't properly saying that, you know, like, this is from where and where, but, you know, that it from somewhere, but if I'm writing it, I have to put it in, in a proper way. I'm sorry, but, so, A, it's peppermint, B is lintel. It's quite obvious. It's killing, killing, killing. You will see. This is the killing of Heranya Kasipu. Actually they call Narasimha, but I call it killing of Heranya Kasipu to fit into my top. So, I'm sorry, but, yeah, killing, killing the bull, that's called Kirata Arjuna. You know, Arjuna and Kirata, as the hunters, they, and, the killing of Virata, actually, the abdaction of Sita, that's what they normally call, you know, the Virata, the demon, abdaction of Sita, and then, Rama and Lakshmana kill him, and, killing him, in order to liberate it him. So, the death of, I say the death, but, the two brothers fighting one another, we will look at it. Okay, these are the killing. Dancing Siva, it's very famous. Dancing Siva, it's a dancing of destruction. Destruction of the universe, and recreating of the universe as well. So, death and rebirth, in that connotation. The killing of, of elephant and lions, and, killing of the, buffalo demons, actually, that's what they call it, Duragam, Honsam, Madhuri, that's in, you know, like, Indians way. The killing of Madhu and Gaidapa, the killing of Gama, actually, they're not the, exactly killing, but it is the killing. Because, the Gaidapa was revised, later on. It's called, Anong, you know, or, Sunruta, Sunruta, it means like, the one that is remembered. So, everyone, the Gaidapa is God of Love. He is remembered, when you think about love, it is in you. So, that is the, the stories that tell. The killing, the Kandiva Forest, and those are, I will come back this, this is the list that I'm trying to, tell you where it is, and then, how it is represented, you know, like in, in the temples. We will look at the images. This is, there are two places, not only one, two places, why two places? This is on the, when you enter, to the temple, you just see it. And this is the, Hiranya Kashiku, he killed a demon, Narasimha, the Vishnu transformed himself, and, take a form of neither man, nor animals, killing, not without weapons, you know, like a, very smart, the composer is very smart, in that case, and, the writer. So, he killed, that is the, the one that is, here, and this is the other one, inside the temple. This is, on the, the pegman outside, and this one, on the pegman, inside the temple. So, there are two, of killing. And again, this is, two abductions of Sita, Virata is killed. One is pegman, from the inside, and the other, outside, in the center, on the lintel. One is on the lintel, the other one is on the pegman. This is, another, a story, it, it's called, that is the Apsara, when the demons is, getting enough power, that can destroy the world, the gods always trip, by sending the beautiful one, to turn them, and then they, you know, the two brothers, doing the aesthetic, and accumulating powers, and then they fight one another, one another, until they kill each other. So, this is another, destroy, destruction. And this is another, story. The story, the Dangin Shiva, and interestingly, there is a, a skinny, lady woman, right here, a woman here, and some scholars say, this is Karikala Maya, and some say, Aputa, the devotees of Shiva. So, I'm not going into detail in that, because I'm not knowledgeable of it. And this is, the other stories, normally, I forgot the names of the elephant, that Krishna killed. Normally, Krishna killed elephant, that you can find it in, in Hindu mythology. But, Lion, I don't know. I cannot find it. I, maybe, to put the knowledge, maybe someone can point it out, it's very good to learn. But I think, maybe, maybe, this is a maybe, thing. Maybe, there is some inspirations from, the, the earlier period, 7th century, temple, of Samboprikku, there is a depiction of, Lion Hunting King. Hunting is very favorite theme, for the kings. So, Lion Hunting King, he go, you know, like, that story itself, it's not, locally, invented. First, Lion doesn't exist in Cambodia. Second of all, you can find, if you Google it, I also, expert in Google. So, I find it, that, Lion Hunting King, in the Sasanian, in, in, in, you know, like, in the 8th century, you can see it, you know, like, a dango, a small dango, exactly the same. But why the story comes, you know, like, to that place, you can, if those who, interested in, tracing the networking, you know, like, that is the point, you know, like, why the story comes, it doesn't mean, like, a long story, that is coming to Cambodia, and then, integrated, into Khrushnara stories. I'm not sure about the, you know, like, their possibilities like that. This is a, this is also, interesting, episodes. This is a, you know, like, a painting, and guide about it. And that is, it's very interesting to see. You know, like, closely look, you know, they picture just, show killing the buffalo. But this is not just only killing the buffalo. It, you see the hands here, you see the hands, it being, the buffalo skins only. They dip inside, it is the demon. The demon is come out after, it's like shaking, you know, like, only the skin, take out the skin, and then you kill it. So this is it. I mean like, very, all of these to say, the sculptors is very careful. It's not, they don't just like, do it, right away. That they really carefully executed it. This is another story. It's a burning of the Kandiva forest. It's also killing. You know, the acne come into, Arjuna, and you can see Arjuna. Here, here is Krishna. Here is Arjuna. You can see the four arms, you know, and acne come in and say, hey, I would like to, to consume all of these forests. Can you help me? Okay. When, when you are the king, someone is requesting, always granted. You know, never say no. So they say, they granted. And they, they give him, they give Arjuna the keywords where the arrows is not, it never been exhausted. You know, so, and then acne gave Krishna his, his, you know, you know, attributes, his weapons, the chakras. So in this, in this battle, they kill everything. One of, one of, I remember, one of the Indra's friends is Naga inside, going up to tell that, oh, my child is killed. So can you help me? And then Indra say, okay, my friend, I can do it. And then he sent out the train, the, the race. Arjuna keeping his promise, by saying that I will block, you know, like you can consume all the forest. So what can they do? They shoot an arrow. And you see here is the arrows that block the rains. So they know, they, the people at the time, I mean, the time of the construction, they know quite well the stories, how to, how to present it into art. So this is something that, that we have to think about it too. And this is another story, you know, like stories of Krishna, killing Kansa. It's a very famous story too. Very well elaborated. And this is the killing. I say killing, killing Kama. It is the, this is Kama shooting an arrow. His, his weapon is the tip, the flowers and cans and, you know, sugar cans. So everything is sweet in the, involved. So he is reducing him by opening his third eye, that, you know, Kama turning into ashes. But in Cambodian, if you observe there are many places, Cambodian is not satisfied with the, Shiva turning Kama into ashes. When turning into ashes, how can you see that Kama is dead? They always have the, the body, you know, like, the body down below or something, but not here, because this is the start of the, the destruction. This is one of the things that I, I'd like you to take a good notice of it. The good notice is, this is the story of the Arjuna and Kirata that killing the, the buffalo, other, the, the bull. The bull right here is the, you see the two, an arrow on the corner, and they shoot an arrow and kill the bull. This is very important. Many scholars saying that this is the signature, this is the signature of the builder. The signature, why it is the signature of the builder, because that builder's name is Yajna Varha, meaning sacrificial bull. So that is the name that is, embedded in this. That's what they, they take. And this is, there's a repetition of that. And this is another killing again. You know, killing Valin and Sokriva that fight one another and who is the very, the most angry, the, the low-hearted or high-hearted, I don't know what to say. The quick temper. Look at this. This is none other but Lakshmana. Look at him. He bite his moustache. Brother, why don't you do it? You know, like, how can you not do it? You know, like, look at him. He's very, he's very angry, angrier than his brother. His brother actually smile, you know. So this is very, I think one of the, one of the represented reliefs or episodes of Ramayana in Cambodia. At one point, Cambodia is not satisfied with Rama killing Valin. And they said, they, they, they cuff and in Tung Sai Devada temple, one of the temple in 12th century, that when he died, the Apsara pulling him up. You know, like flying to heaven, directly. Because they're not satisfied, I think, in society. They also critique in that episode. But they like it. They represent it very much. Maybe they like to critique the gods. And this is, you know, some sort of killing a man. I'm not quite sure who is that. Many scholars say, you know, just go to get away, saying, oh, that must be, because that is the fighting between a man, that must be Krishna. Krishna like playing. But this one, I doubt why he have three legs. You know, only, only one person that only one figure in Hindu mythology is Brungu, that have three legs. You know, like, but it doesn't fit in that story. So anyway, killing again. The theme. And this is a, the theme that is, it's killing of Dusasana. It's very, very, this, this killing is very powerful. Even in, this is an excerpt from Mahaparata. It's very powerful because this is the whole story. I'm taking, this is another 11th century, this is 10th century. This is the, the chess game between Kaurava and Pandava. The one that is, you know, infactuated with gambling. Look at him, you know, like this is, we can know that who is Duryodhana, and who is Justisthira. This is Justisthira. He lose. You know, like, it's sad, very sad. And they bet the buy. And this is Dukhasana, that, you know, like pulling the rope from Drupati. But the rope itself, it's based on the story. Based on the story. Based on the story, they say that when ever Dusasana try to pull the rope, the rope itself, that automatic rope, you know, like a weaving way by itself. But this is in Cambodia. And who is, who the one that was in love with, because you might be familiar with that story, that Drupati married to five brothers. So among the five brothers, the one that loved him the most is Pima. And Pima, seeing him, seeing this guy doing that through his wife, he's very angry. He take a vow, saying that I will kill you in the battle. That is very powerful message. I will kill you in the, I will tear you apart and then drink your blood in the battle. And when he in the battle, he tear him into a pot and drink the blood. And the people complain, you know, why are you doing this? They say, no, he, you know, like, Krishna always saying, telling everyone okay, let him do it, because that is the vow. The vow that he took, it's much more than the law. So that is, you know, like, when you take vows, it's much more and the most powerful and the most respected than the law itself. This is another Mahaparata, the killing. I say that the law. This is the Cambodian representation that you can really see that how can Cambodian wait on law and the, you know, like wait on the law and the vow. Here is, you can see Arjuna and then Pisma. No, no sorry. Arjuna and not Arjuna, Pima and Duryodhana. They fight in the last when Arjuna is hiding and then they say, okay, come out, come out from the pond. We have to do the dual fighting. So when they fight Krishna Pim, try to hit below the waist. By the law, they say that you're not doing that. You're not allowed to hit by the waist. And who was mad? It is Krishna's brother, Balarama saying that you are doing that is wrong. You're not supposed to do that. But then Krishna to show that he is the most powerful Krishna in that form is not in four arms, you know. But this is the Cambodian sewing. This is the real Krishna, you know that? This is the real Krishna, four arms coming out and stop his brother that was the vows that he threw. He said that when nobody was about to come out of the game out of the room say, hey lady come and sit on my lap. And then Pim is very angry. He was very angry and said, you know I will break your size. I vow to break your thighs. And then he broke the size. And then he said, this is the vows and I think that's very powerful in that context. Those are the stories that I think more than about 19s depicting that tiny small temple that you just seen. 19th theme about killings. Now we look at it. Not only those, but animals. You see, I barely see. I observe the temple. I barely see it so much the animals. The two biting an elephant, they are there from that. This is not that. This is very, you know like, you generally see this in my temple. You generally see, you know, like a naga eaten by, I don't know what it is called. Maybe somebody they call it, they get away, they call it Makara. I don't know Makara. Makara is you know, I'm not quite sure which one is which one. And then you could, you, I think this is they have its own category. Which one is the most powerful one in that representation of that temple we can take it as a model. That is, you take it right now Makara. And this is they might call Gaccha Semha, you know, the lion with the elephant. And then Garuda and Naga eating. But that's very simple. This is a very interesting this Makara that we know have a drum. You know, I don't know Gaccha Makara. If I might invented that so Gaccha Makara. And the lion with four arms you know, eating or something. But this is the trance that, you know, pulling in pulling the pulling that lion apart. And this is also, this is triple. Makara Garuda and Naga. So, yeah there's themes like that. It's represented. And why? You know, like someone is killing something. I don't know where, you know. We do what stories it is. And it is represented the killing. And that is the question why it is the killing in that context. Beside that, there are also two. What I know that is the Gaccha Lakshmi. The, you know the lovely one. That is the Gaccha Lakshmi. When you walk inside the temple, you are going by purified by the Gaccha, the elephants with the like pouring the water on that. And this is very curious one. No one, I mean like, you know, if you don't carefully look at it, it will slip away. Slip away to me, I think it's very, it's a big discovery for me. When I look at it, when you look at it, it is the Garuda. And this is the Andra on the elephant. It's quite normal. Andra is on the elephant. You know, sometimes he sits in a calm position. But when you see this, he's going into the battles, right? It's not simple. He's going into the battle. He's about to throw his medical Vajra, the Thunderbolts weapon. Why is that so? You look closely at the Garuda. Garuda is holding a pot. What is that? If you family with the Indian stories, you might take it into your mind and say, ah, there is a story. It's called Amrita Graha. Stealing the Amrita. Why is it depicted here? Then again, why are you choosing that thing, you know? This is the depictions of that. You see, I try to hide my from that small. You can see it, right? And also Garuda is, you know, amplified. His head is big and he is a big man right now. Eating a Naga, his brother, actually. He hates his brother, actually. This is another story. Let me tell you a little bit about why I am trying to present this. The temple itself is called Tripuvana Maheshvara. Maheshvara is the great scene, right? Of the three worlds. And this is based on the inscription. You look at the inscription, you see the inscription saying of Yajnavara, saying that he abide by the rule. I don't know what kind of rule is that. He made a statue of his, to to increase the tarma of his parents. The statue, by name Uma Maheshvara. He made the statue of Uma Maheshvara for his parents. So, specifically that temple, at one point, it had funerary associated. So, his parents died but died at the place of God. So, they are defying him, they defying them to be the gods. So, they promoting their stases in that case. This is general. The general Uma Maheshvara. So, Shiva and Uma, you can find in many other countries who believe in Hinduism or Brahmanism. So, you can see that kind of Uma Maheshvara. But this one is very interesting because you see that it's going up. I will show you here. Why Uma Maheshvara? There is something that they play in it. They play in that temple. To make that Uma Maheshvara there is an episode saying of the shaking of the mountain. It's Ravana that going to see. Oh, I'm going to see my lord, Shiva. And then when he by the temple by the Kailasa he see the guardian say, no, no, no, you cannot go in because my lord is having fun with his wife. And then he say, no, I have to go. I have an emergency or something. And he's by inciting by one of the Rishi I think I forgot his name he shake the mountain. When he shake the mountain Shiva was mad and then Uma was very scared and jumped into on the left of Shiva right there. And Shiva put a toe on that mountain and crushed on Ravana. And that why he is called Ravana because the name itself is called roaring. He roaring for a thousand years so that he can you know like please they got Shiva and then Shiva release him. So that name Ravana is from roaring the play of words in Sanskrit itself. So this is very important to see, shaking and I make the comparison for you. You see, this is the Uma Maheshwara look at the lake and this is inspired you know, the story that depicted and tell you that there is something inside. It's very interesting to see how you know like I'm not manipulate but you know like how they skillfully put it and then presented in that way and not only that I like to provide you a little bit more information. You see these animals? The animals with the human body with the heads of the elephant, heads of Garuda heads of the monkeys and head of the all of those are the inhabitants of the Kailasa or Meru if you refer into the temples. It's not only that they are on the but it represented the temple itself you know like you have it you have the small figures right there, that monkey man and that Garuda you know like they they try to make you believe of course they believe themselves that they are those are the Kailasa but they make all of us right now believe that this is the real Kailasa at that time so they make those inhabitants by showing make the small figures sitting around the the main temple so in conclusion I think it's about the time right? I'm not talking too much your English is shining as I expected I'm glad I hope you understand it so what I'm trying to conclude here and conclude in the ways of learning you know like we try not the final saying that is you know like the total but that's my conclusion in biography of Jatya Varaha it's very interesting he's very learned based on the inscription itself and based on the historical even that you can piece together that is to say he's very learned he can speak many languages based on that inscription he can speak Sanskrit or Greek Sanskrit but many other languages based on that he is the composer of the a playwright and and he's very powerful you know in society he's a royal guru a royal preceptor he's very powerful so what I believe that the temple itself is the selection of the theme first of all it is inspired by his name his name that is play that is play in that construction you know like the sacrificial bore meaning you know sacrifice and then if you make the sacrifice you put it on the fire sometimes you kill in the Vedic ritual it's called yufa the post that is put in the middle of some place and then you kill it you kill an animal in it so there might be some association with the killing in that and why the killing why he plays that if that is correct why he plays with the killing you see the story for example killing Valin why he's killing Valin in the general scheme in the broad scheme it is the the ways of understanding that the reality of the the monkey's kingdom restore the order and also the universal order attacked by Ravana as well so that is restoring the orders and also many other episodes is board of the evil spirit demons and he himself his name jachna vahra vahra is the bore and the bore itself the killing of the bore it happens to be the bore is the demon maybe that is the play of his the play of his name I kill that bore which is within me it means that I am also purified you know that I think I think it might be something to do or something to play with it and it was I think it's getting the social order bike into order, restore the orders that is the episode of killing the other important thing is that one of the episodes I haven't seen when I'm not seen it doesn't mean that it didn't exist I haven't seen it with my experience and many scholars ignore that Bari leaves the Amrita Kritha they ignore it it's very easy to skip your eyes like it's hidden somewhere but the hidden message is the key I think and what is important here based on the inscription itself at the time, meaning 10th century they say that the place is offered it's like the sacred water based on the translator the famous Zoxodes he said that that is the special water that it used in the royal libation, like pouring and sacred and some in later period some of scholars like a colleague in Paris make suggestion that Bantizray become one of the famous place to get the water for consecration of kings which makes some sense like Amrita is down on earth and Gajalaxmi I cannot put Gajalaxmi into that context but there is something associated with it and the other part is the recitation like you have all of those all of those episodes in various episodes display on the temples all of those are also recitation as I quoted from the inscriptions earlier it is someone related to that notion and also I think you can agree with me whatever you want but it might be that this is one of my composition they might do the play like the theater so this is one of my essay my play of Valin killing Ravana killing is also the mark of his work another interesting before going to that you see the side small as Bantizray there is no anger between Vaishnava and Shaiva those who worship Vishnu and those who worship Shiva and you can also see that there is no argument oh Rama and I it might be related to Rama and I think it might be something that that is our story Cambodian story the story that accepted into the society whatever god you worship whatever god you appreciate it but those are the stories that exist in the society they take it as all of their own for their own lastly that I said when some scholars say it is about you know the carving might be later in that period I don't think so I tend not to agree because I see the dress you know like some art historically might look at the dress carefully this calf like this and that calf like that and then I match the statues with that the body leaves on that pigment exactly the same if the statue might not be remade you know from the 9th from the 10th century when the body leaves exactly the same the same dress the same thing so I think it might be at the time but if it might be have been correct it means that the society accepted the tremendous they have tremendous respect to what Yajinawa because you know like whatever carving existed in it previously they use it remake it again so just like the inscription say rule car you know like it's just like the time of the royal group back then so I would like to finish my stamina for your fantastic English and thank you all for for attending we're going to ask you to attend even longer because we I forgot to mention opening that we have a reception this evening so we have this room until 7 so we have a little bit less than half an hour for questions but we can then overflow with our questions into the common room which is on what floor the second floor first floor not my forte on the first floor we have a reception I actually want to ask a few people we're helping helping and organizing that it might be worth going down there and doing that now because otherwise we risk other people eating our food so yes sorry we're also having sorry I'm just going to do a little advertising and let you rest for one second while I do this we're also going to have a book sale this evening and the book sale is is a set of publications that come out of the association that submitted myself and another of a number of other people here in the room are involved with the historical NGO in Pham Pen that supports research in the field of art history and associated associated cultural historical areas so most of the publications are in Khmer some of them are also in English I think that's it our range and so we would encourage you not only to look at the work on offer but also to think about possibly supporting the association we do have some information on the association as well so it's something that those of us who are involved with the Department of Archaeology in Pham Pen are very engaged with the association called the SOFOR so that's on offer at 7 right now I'll turn you back over to Sepia for your questions I imagine there are many so floor is yours where to begin quite interesting for the idea of purification and I'm wondering if you can extend that maybe in terms of the iconography to for example when you say killing of Khmer killing of you know like in Hinduism you kill, you know, Khmer, Proud, Loha, Hakkar you know those five you could call it five poisons so would you say that could be possible that it could be meant in that symbolic way rather than strictly literally I think I'm not quite sure about that time you know like but meditations or aesthetic form might exist and I think they might take some very close to this there is a site called Mount Gulen there are caves that acidic cities over there and I think that ideas might be involved in you know like killing what is inside you and then so that you purify and I think of course the Yajna is one of them and then that's my sense of what he used the Hindu mythology of killing the boar, the boar that symbolizing the evil it is that is something that he liked to you know and I happen to read some inscription in earlier periods you know like saying some of the Brahmins like he had no desire they say something like that but his only desire is to have the fire of lighting to bury to burn his corpse the body and also to reach the world of Brahma so I have no desire but I have one but of course I think that those ideas of killing all the you know like last most pride yeah pride and stuff like that I think that for Yajna himself I think he might not take pride because he is the king himself he king in the way that he is the grandson of the king you know like grandson of one of the king two king previous to that one I visit the site and you know every time I go and I see the different thing the same spot exactly the same and then you will notice ah this is something but that you have to build from the local knowledge you know like you have to be familiar with or how people making the Oscar like right there what is it called you know like you have to be familiar with those context so that you can come back and then it will continue I don't know whether you can go and then okay I look at this but I think it's repeated activities two episodes for example I just mentioned a little bit about the churning of the Milky Ocean it's very do you know what when you go and then you see people playing a type of war you say type of war but that's not only simple type of war what I see in Cambodian playing they play it to break down to break open the new rice cultivation season invite the churning of the Milky Ocean involved because the churning of the Milky Ocean to get the water you know it makes sense in that it's so much involved and why it's so popular in Cambodia because not in India because Cambodian is a great cultural societies and I think and the type of war it's up only in Cambodia in Korea in Vietnam in Philippines that they have nothing to do with churning of the Milky Ocean but the churning of the Milky Ocean makes so much sense to that communities you know that the game itself pre-exists the Indian existence of the churning of the Milky Oceans how do you see it do you walk along and see it or do you see it I mean it seems to me that in some ways they're very different examples thinking about the architectural structure and relationship to the narratives makes you think differently about things if we were to take some of the Angkor Wat so let's say the Hell scenes of Angkor Wat where there's an indication of a flow right there's a flow of people and there's actually a legend that gives you an indication of a direction to follow and that that link and the foreigners are piney game right they are what in the 16th century referred to as speaking panels or panels of narratives sculpting panels of narratives whereas what you're looking at at Bantis today if I were to try to say how do we conceive of that as piney game as sculpting narratives right or as continuous narratives you were associating that with continuous speaking in a sense which a narrative is right it's a flow it's a sequence itself you don't have the same composition, architectural composition and sculptural composition that that encourages narrative and encourages that walking through instead it's what you've shown us are the set scenes so if I were to say if I were to try to make sense of your proposition of your antique Robert Brown sorry Bob Brown proposition that it is about the story and therefore it is piney game it is continuous that's why I come back to your very interesting composition that he's a playwright and this could this is also potentially a big speculative leap made here but to think about that is these particular episodes are also associated with the longer story which is being told it's being evoked but it's also evoked as a telling as a playing out in a sense and that's who he was he was an incredible scholar he knew all of these things and he wrote plays about them and this is a performance of that of all of that work in a sense in that sense there's a piney game but it's quite different from Uncle Water from the Uncle Water to Bayonne or your wonderful panel coming up to the end and then you see the back of the characters they're moving in and they encourage you to go up to the next part of the story that's quite different from from Uncle Water which is bitty in that way anyway that's those different moves but we should relate it somehow I think like Professor Thompson just explained it's like it depends on the temples that you are approaching but I think if we are to learn more I think frequent visits to the site is advisable because I don't learn it from the beginning I cannot see the theme when my first visit even I lack of some pictures because when you look oh my god I miss this I miss that you know like oh this is the theme that is you know like frequent visit and I visited many many times I mean like you go you have to pay right now for that I'm just wondering is that what's the how do you see all those narratives of the play around individual artists creative novelist to put into that but how much does that mean to the kind of fixture of the from now on like that position will always have that kind of over there or is that kind of one or just in a story some creative individual artists kind of play this one but then it disappears but in some other stories like probably a certain state can picture a kind of protocol and you always have to play in this way to to carve in this way you know what I mean in what stage and development from individual creative this to universally acknowledged position that everybody has to for and most of the original reading or you know interesting point I think the principle the main idea is there you know like there is no to that particular question the toes that need to be I think it must be like that because that is signified there is another very interesting ballet leaves on the lintel or I'm not sure from Battenbaum Museum you know like Ravana is crying with the leg like that and then you know like Shiva is pointing so there is something like that but to most of my son about seeing those ballet leaves in each theme or each episode or stories or depictions it might have some varieties you know nuances depend on the artist themselves you know like but certain characteristics that you can see exactly the same for example the turning of the Milky Ocean sometimes monkeys you know something involved in that you know like in that story why because something that we don't understand so but the main idea or the main representation for you to see to immediately know the whole story is there I'm not responding to your question there are also kind of personal impressions and play of that if you go to uncle what I mean that is one of the example uncle what the temples and you see Absara you can see the play of it you know like many different Absara you know like their sculptors playing around with it and of course if you take one theme I have the ballet leaves for example of the turning sometimes they embedded with the the turning of the Milky Ocean sometimes it is the flower you know like but may you see sometimes it makes like the the lines like that the lines of the one the kind of one that at that at the central you see Vishnu but that is the theme you know like they can manipulate many things but whatever the depiction yourself make you know make you realize that this is that story I cannot precisely I need to observe on that but thank you for raising it but I think that there is something the key point is you see that oh that is the story but there are there are side show side event side information that you can learn from that we need it for example the killing of ballet if you go to uncle what and because it's very specific you see the killing is it on the top and then but the monkeys is down there you know like fighting over there that is the main thing you can see but you see monkey monkey monkey monkey that panel of monkeys some monkeys doing like this you know like like that why because they Rama is doing wrong you know that is the criticism sometimes one like that the Sita is audio audio of Sita you know Sita is burning like on fire also monkeys monkeys are those people the people at the time side show you know like you see that story of course but there are also information but I mean to your point is that the representation make sure most of the time to for you to understand that what is that story otherwise you don't know the story itself then you cannot interpret it but if you you family in that story you can tell oh and then you say oh this is a local invention all that is an artist or you know like having happened to the main story so there was reception people just want to go and I lost my mind but for a question or shall we thank the Southeast Asian art academic program for sponsoring this lecture series so thanks for getting