 Can I ask the aliens any questions, and I really believe it's possible, but it's so, because they know about the lump behind my father's ear, and you know, that sort of thing. And I said, great, let's do an experiment. Ask these ladies to ask the aliens what the problem is with Yellowstone. Now, this is an esoteric bit of information that comes to me from a bizarre point of view. And they said, okay, what's the problem with Yellowstone? And I said, oh no, no, no, no, no, no. Just in case there's some telepathic pickup, let's make it a bit harder. I'll tell you afterwards. So, they came back, and the fellow that says Catalan said the lady out in British Columbia that he's working with is rather well known as a contactee, as opposed to an abductee, a UFO person contactee. Said the problem with Yellowstone is that there are underground caverns where secret experiments are being run by the U.S. government, and the experiments aren't going very well. Which is not likely to be untrue if those experiments are going long, because the underground caverns are superheated to about 2,000 degrees by the steam. Superheated geothermal steam that's there. So, the experiments probably won't do. Which does tend to, you know, make them not go well. The lady in Springfield, Missouri, said it wrote lengthy paragraphs pages about the fact that the forest fire in Yellowstone, which had occurred shortly before, had destroyed so many trees that the oxygen content of the planet was now depleted in life, which is, of course, nonsense statistically. Now, the interesting then, the problem with Yellowstone is that there's a crustal rise, there's a bubble of magma coming up, and the outrageous rate of about half an inch a year, this crust, which is already rather thin, it's about three miles thick, is rising, and if it breaks through, the magma will be so tremendous that all life on the planet can be exterminated, because the amount of debris flowing up into the air will block out 99%, 98% of the light that reaches the surface of the planet very soon. But what do you believe about that volcano in the East Indies that really blacked out? It had a tremendous, tremendous impact on the Earth's... But it didn't, but it didn't... No, but we're not talking about a magma release anywhere near the same age, we're talking about orders of magma to small... When? Yellowstone would be still in the Cracketella? Yellowstone would be significant in large, in many orders... Oh, the Cracketella. And it happens, it's thought that it goes in about a 600,000 year cycle, and it happened about 600,000 years ago, to say that geologists were interested in this sort of thing. So give or take, 10,000 years, that is the problem with Yellowstone. Now the physician at Saskatchewan said, well, the social worker said, gee, I wonder why she, you know, how that was created, and what empowers her or leads her to feel that she's in contact with the aliens. Obviously it's wrong. The guy at Saskatchewan, the physician, said, why would the aliens lie? Which is very interesting. But... That'd be right. But there are lots and lots of people who wonder if there's another or not from this, which is a very different response. Some of these people show clear evidence to my assessment of being in chronic PTSD without recognizing the trauma. But anyhow, so the scenario goes onward. What are the signs? Oh, God, I knew it. I knew it was serious. Just to finish the scenario very quickly, people go down and they're taken to an examination chamber, which could be as small as just being enough for one metal table or a hard surface narrow table on which they lie, or could have as many as 100 or 150 or 200 tables. People report different sized craft. Craft typically are described as being larger on the inside than on the outside, but that's not a bearing. And that bothers people with the scientific education. It bothers them a lot. My husband keeps saying, What do they mean by that? Do they mean by that? I don't know what they mean by that. So then after probing and poking in and some messing around, which tends to involve some reproductive business and some intense staring into the eyes of the individual by the little grey guys, and some creation of images within the mind or perhaps in the visual field of the individual and some playing around in that way, that's over after some point. And sometimes it's painful. Sometimes it's not. Often it's reported to involve harvesting of over, home women and harvesting of sperm from men or boys and girls as well. And how do they do it in what way is that done? Like the joke of the Medicaid mill? Like the joke of the Medicaid mill. Tell me the joke. The gathering of sperm in the expensive clinic is done by a gorgeous female. And the client really has a great time. And the Medicaid mill, it's a dirty room and they're giving either hustler magazine or worn out the copy of hustler or playbook. They have to do it themselves. No, it's not like the Medicaid mill, but it's interesting. Lots of men report they're being mounted by a female whom they typically, initially will describe as human. And then when you say what color hair, what her eyes like and so on, those features kind of peel away. And what you get is a hairless, light bulb shaped head, big eyed creature. Which has absolutely no erotic component for anybody that I've ever... This is a reversal of most of Rosemary's baby when she says, she opens her eyes and she says, this isn't the dream. This is real. And the devil's mounting her. That's the famous Tsukubos and Inkubos. Yes, of course. Often, however, even that falls away on what it is as an instrumentation procedure with arousal produced against the intent of the individual, the man, saying, no, no, no, no, no, no, but yes, yes, yes. And ejaculation without particular pleasure. And I have known of one case of a physician who became addicted to the experience and spent his life, he had two lives. This is a rather interesting clinical situation. He had one life in which he was also a respected member of the community. He had two babies actually and a wife and a lovely house and that sort of thing. And then the other part, is it all right that I sat down over here? Sure. The other part of his life that really caused him enormous agony was that without knowing what it was he spent incredible amounts of time and energy and money looking for it. He heard about some bizarre sexual experience in Bangkok. He would be on the plane the next morning and he structured his practice so that he could leave instantly without notice and he was gone. He was on the way to Bangkok to try to find it and he was addicted sexually to an experience that he couldn't identify. Was he a good record keeper? Yes, yes. He knew what it was that he was experiencing and he knew what wasn't it. And frankly, I've never heard a more full account of activities that couldn't be it. I was astonished. I'm not easily shocked but I was literally open mouth by the time he got through telling me what it wasn't because I've never heard of some of the things that it wasn't. This wasn't his imagination, right? No, this really was not. And when we did a regressive hypnosis it was a terribly, terribly poignant session and he was crying and I was crying too because it was so moving. He retrieved memories for the first time being a very young child and having stimulation applied to the penis with this instrumentation. And after ejaculation, it was much too young to have been able to ejaculate in an ordinary situation. After ejaculation, the stimulation continued and continued and continued. And first it was painful and then it became something that was not pain and was not pleasure. And whenever he was subjected to this experience that same procedure was repeated. This is awfully atypical. I haven't heard this in any other situation. So there would be stimulation to ejaculation and very often there's ejaculation without any stimulation at all. There's simply two medicines and then ejaculation and no sensation of pleasure. But this was a different protocol apparently. So there'd be stimulation, ejaculation, continued stimulation to pain and then stimulation beyond the pain to a state that was outside pain and pleasure but certainly addicting. And that's what he was looking for and had no conscious memory of what it was that was being sought. After we did the hypnosis he never made another high-speed secret trip again. He didn't need to do that. In other words, we had unearthed whatever it was and he now had tools with which to deal with it at a conscious level. And that's fairly typical of what happens in the process of unearthing, whatever these things are, memories or whatever. Because the clinical resolution is often a phenomenal phobias of anxiety states of bizarre behaviors, of neuroses, of the belief of having been molested by parents or by others who deny that that ever happened. And in fact, the terrestrial abuse that's remembered seems to serve as a screen memory for this other kind of abuse. Now, the debunkers frequently say, well, of course, this extraterrestrial stuff is just a screen memory, not dealing with why it's a coherent rather than a diversified screen memory. But in fact, clinically what you see is that it's the terrestrial abuse that acts as a screen memory. And once that's lifted and pierced and you get to the core, then you get remission of symptoms. So that's rather interesting. Are they all similar? Of extraterrestrial abuse? Very similar. But they're not all similar. There are a few outliers. And in Great Britain, the aliens tend to be different. Maybe the world's been split up and the taller, lighter-colored ones got the British Isles. But... And that's weird. That's weird. The blondes? The blondes, the Nordics. But in the main, most of the report. Well, of course, the data collection has been so poor in any... The numbers of good, scrupulous, methodologically concerned people working in this field has been to underestimate the situation small. Up until very recently. A few people have been systematic. We need a worldwide database to see what we're looking at. Well, so off the table, poking, prodding, mind-scanning over with not a pleasant procedure for most people even though there's some indication that the limbic system and the reticular activating system are messed around with in order to produce some kind of affiliation. And that's reported in consistent ways by folks who have absolutely no knowledge of the neurological architecture of what they're looking at. Are you in touch with the work that Pristinger up in Canada has been doing with the use of the electromagnetic instrumentation to I think it's a limbic system to get the same kind of does a lot of temporal lobes. Temporal lobes. Are you saying that what these people report is that there's some way of going directly to the limbic system or the reticular? It sounds as if the report we're not talking about a surgical procedure. No, that's what I mean. You're talking about some influence that goes there without... If we assume that this is really happening we don't know the locus of origin of these stories but assume for a minute that this is veritable. What we're talking about is some kind of massive PK effect in which the switches are thrown the neurons are dill with, the connections are played with in some way through access down the optic nerves to the optic chiasm back into the brain and people will describe if they're good observers even if they know nothing about the stoichiometry and architecture of the nervous system they will describe the following down of tracts that can be mapped on an atlas. It's wild. That's really wild. Prima, are you saying that this PK effect has a channel and that the channel goes through the eyes and the optic nerves? That's what I'm saying. Well, it follows tracts and radiations into the optic gyri and back out again and there are a number of ways to get into the mammillary bodies so have tracts radiating and if they're you can take the atrium and get to canarsia and you can do it any way you want and then it's very interesting too that there are memory aberrations that are very much like Corsicops very much and again in the lateral mammillary which is right in the track of this process if you have a lesion there there are Corsicop like syndromes and in fact they're indistinguishable clinically from Corsicop so you get the seamless weld between the confabulated memory and the real memory, right? What color is the string? Blue, what color is the swing green? Do you remember maybe we were out drinking together last night? No weld, no no problem of moving from confabulation to reality and back again. Same thing with the screen memories that you get that's a whole different topic but the neurological implications or the implications for neurological diviling are really fascinating I'm familiar with Persinger but he has to suggest to people using ELF and Helmetson this and that which another 50,000 years could be spent with technologically but he has to suggest to people that now they're going to experience being a UFO person and so on and so on. There's also another experiment that was done by professor of English named Alvin Walson in California who took supposedly real UFO experiencers and fake UFO experiencers and compared the results well the transcripts of the sessions are nothing like he had to say okay now imagine there's a craft okay now imagine you're going through the door okay now imagine that you're on a table and had to prompt and then could get similar responses and publish that as naive subjects have not had the experience or don't claim the experience tell the same story in fact that's not what the data says the data says that they were divergent their aliens were tall and short and hairy and thin and this and that and the other thing but the quote real UFO experiencers had the same scenario to tell personager I've spoken with personager a number of times and he hasn't yet been able to get anybody to have the story right without having to prompt them Marina if you know somebody in Saskatchewan who can ask these people has anybody ever asked them what is the function when they're coming to this planet oh people ask all the time and people tell what the function is all the time well it depends on who you buy into you can have any function you want it's evil wicked terrible genetic manipulation and engineering it's to save the planet and involve human consciousness and it's everything in between there is no idea that as far as I can see anybody can come up with concerning UFOs that some group of people doesn't believe in is the truth concerning the UFOs well let's say you think it might be a bit more vertical if you got it through this patient who knows the person in Saskatchewan what would that person get how has that person been asked to ask people lots of people say I don't know or I think it's this or I think it's that but there are have you been reading the literature on why they're here it's a subset of the UFO literature it's voluminous it's enormous some of it's religious there's a physician out in Kansas who has had his license lifted by the board of human arts because he believes in UFOs and because he believes that the Apostle Peter rides in one who has been talking to him and has selected him as one of the four savers of humanity and his mistake is that he's going around telling people there's nothing he's a psychiatrist and there's nothing nothing been raised in terms of a question about his practice of psychiatry it's indistinguishable from everybody else's in Kansas but Scott's from Kansas in the furnace he's been direct public about it and says that it's to save humankind and has written and spoken and so on and believes adamantly that he's right Mima, could I just ask real quick, I was wondering cause I deal with a lot of abductees and I've noticed something interesting each one of them it seems that when the experience is happening the creatures or entities whatever you want to call them they seem to know what makes that person tick I don't know if that's an inner knowledge or it just comes from dealing with our species so long but I've noticed that one person will be told well we're your space brothers and if you'll come with us we'll give you an immense amount of knowledge and new technology we're going to kill your children if you don't come in thousands of cases that's the scenario you've dealt with thousands of cases yeah from one end to the other I'm from Long Island that would just explain it but anyway, no but I'm really wondering what do you feel about that I'll tell you what my feeling is that they'll say anything to accomplish your agenda and I don't know what their agenda is how do you feel about it that plus the fact that there seems to be a confabulation factor it has to be dealt with very very very very carefully people take an absolutely incomprehensible experience and they try to weave meaning into it so that they can retain their grounding and that seems reasonable to me that's adaptive so there's a mixture of confabulatory material of fantasy of needful state material and then there's a mixture of whatever it is that they say I think they can be killed but it requires attention to that issue to do it, how do you work with how have you gotten to work with thousands of abductees I did a brief lecture tour I did three lectures in Pennsylvania in four days and I found 54 abductees so I mean it just tells you the level of stuff that's going on because to do a lot of traveling it's not all from Long Island but I'd say a good quarter of them aren't from Long Island there's a lot of people out there are you a psychiatrist? No, I'm just a UFO investigator but I've been doing it for over 25 years I've come across thousands of people and I have case files and all of them stuff like that but one thing another question I want to ask you really disturbs me it's one thing that's been very disturbing I found that over the last 40 years there's a whole group of young people that apparently have had abduction experiences during the time when they were very young these are children typically by the time they're nine to 13 years old they have an RQ anywhere from 140 to 150 normally they're a very specific type of people they either end up in science or math or bumps on the street to put it bluntly they seem to have no purpose in life in life and yet at the same time they feel this intense need to follow some intellectual career invariably they a lot of them in fact have worked on STI and other programs for our government but I guess my question is how do you feel about the interruption if you will in our society by these creatures of these children because I see it still going on last year just to let you know I had spoken to six different groups of advanced young people I call them advanced because they're in advanced special ed classes on Long Island now the six programs were from one end of Long Island to the other none of them knew of each other's existence in terms of their programming and yet all of them in one year asked me to come and speak for them and told me independently that that particular year they had chosen UFOs as their course of study for the year so I mean it's kind of odd you know what I mean there are 2,000 colleges and universities in this country teaching UFO courses this year 2,000 10 years ago there were maybe 3 so it's not just young people between the ages that you mentioned but I will tell you and I want Scott to have a chance to speak and I want us all to have a chance to share I gotta get through the scenario and I will tell you that in one of my other incarnations I have done a great deal of work with I mean I don't mean that literally I mean one of the other things that I do I've done a great deal of work with child prodigies which was motivated and brought about by my dealing with my own son who is now 16 and a half and was so divergent from anything that I knew as a child psychiatrist and I started looking very early for expertise and wound up getting referrals because the people that I was looking for expertise from said you've done more of this than we have so they were sending families to me and I got to be an expert in that way and child prodigies and we're talking about kids with IQs of 200 and above you will understand that the numbers are pretty meaningless it's a ballpark figure over there we're not talking about the difference between 210 and 190 but you get an idea of the kind of child that we're dealing with well there are far far far too many of these children there are far too many statistically there are far too many basically you have a bimodal curve you've got your standard curve your bell shaped curve which my son at age three and a half called a Gaussian banana on an asymptotic plate oh my god he's very funny and you have a bimodal hump out there and it's a big bimodal hump out there at the high end now when I was working with prodigies and wouldn't be caught dead talking about UFOs or even thinking about them I thought well that's weird it just indicates that the search has not been done and that the prejudice against seeing these children has been a very real one I'm not so sure that that's the explanation at this point I really am not we may be talking about God knows what if these guys are real and I make a very clear distinction for myself between what I believe or think and what I know and I don't know for sure that these guys are real I know for sure to my own satisfaction that UFOs are real because one of the things that happened to the abduction business I said, mm, UFO abduction better learn about UFOs and read the literature on UFOs what's available in English came to me an astonishing conclusion that the only fair-minded assessment of the data is that sometimes under some conditions in some way some of these things are real nuts and bolts, physical devices whatever that means so for me I meant to say UFOs are real in the way that things tend to be real in the world sometimes now, presumably somebody's driving them unless they're all unmanned probes and presumably unless it's a ninth grade science fair and that is the only significance that it has which could be but it's a lot of energy to put into a ninth grade science fair it could be a big high school somebody's doing something that's important enough to sling things around through the universe and consume energy and resources doing such a thing there's so much consistent involvement with the genetic information and aberration and manipulation that it's not impossible to conceive of the fact that that might be one of the agendas or it might be the principal agenda I know that there are far too many of these kids they tend to think well, there should not be the numbers just as there are too many abductees for it to be just a random something with no particular significance there are too many according to the predictions of what we would expect and the belief system of educators and development analysts genetically one wouldn't expect that many so some other influence has come in is it too many is it a moral judgment or a value judgment then he gets that right I think Planet Produce is a great deal more that's an order it's just too many to be explained by what we're used to it's an inexplicably high number that we put that way according to what we think we understand about statistics and distribution and the way human capacities fall out this bimodal hump at the high end makes very little sense there is a bimodal hump at the low end but it's far smaller as far as we can tell and that's another issue I think but these kids are awfully numerous are these kids geographically situated that that would be significant or are they spread out randomly across the United States or all countries of the world and is the the question of their intellectual their intellect such that the schools the colleges and the educational system is really unable to deal with these youngsters because I think that it's been very clear to me that someone who falls outside of the classroom norm it's going to be down on detention every single day getting unsatisfactory and yet this kid might be really more than the school can handle these kids don't fare well in the school systems very rarely do they do well there's a tremendous amount of human wastage whatever their ultimate genetic origin might be we are wasting these children condemning them to terribly unsuccessful lives even if they do manage to survive academically the wastage in terms of human potential and richness of social development and internal life is tremendous that's a different story it's a tragic one geographically well we have a data gathering problem of course if the kid is successful he's squashed by the time they get to school or quote normalize to use that glorious word of early education that the child isn't normalized don't worry said teachers to me he will be normalized by the time he's seven I said what does that mean they said he'll stop being advanced that's a goal don't teach him to read because it only makes it harder on the teacher really? that's a political statement you got it I was involved with the pilot project for the original head start program in New York there was Marty Deutsche's notion of cultural deprivation which got shot down early on but it was shot down locally as a notion that had some validity however had the head start programs were a necessary piece of the political spectrum and it carried throughout the country and it was bought just like the Peace Corps which was another political project and that was the Peace Corps is the head start program for the grownups of the third world so you see there is some central political need that has to address itself to energy and that's the best way I can put it the energy that is spontaneous that arises wherever it arises in the world and if UFOs are sort of put in the category of a form of energy which they have no control of they have to have a political reaction there's a political reaction to it at the present time it's made fun of it to be little it's not accepted and to cite the case of a friend of mine who is an abductee he was in Vietnam and he was a sergeant he was leading patrol company size patrol through some jungle and suddenly a UFO appears above the group big light comes down everybody gets illuminated with this light and he wrote up a report and said that his men were there and this took place and about a week later he was in the United States was he the only one who abducted clients or was it all? no he wasn't abducted at that point he was abducted later but to just report the fact that he had seen a UFO nobody was abducted at that point no one was abducted but plenty of UFOs were seen in Vietnam they got rid of it the paper that Scott and I co-authored at treat 3 last March was public policy and experienced a normal trauma which in some ways dealt with some of these issues Scott I have to tell you why is this this person with me Scott is a I'm paying very close attention let's take a vote let's create a reality the chair Scott has been very much involved in the development of the treat process about which we might not get spoken at all yet when Scott and I met he was a retired Navy officer and he'll doubtless tell you a little bit about that he still is a retired Navy officer and he was at that time a special assistant to Senator Claiborne Pell who's and perhaps he'll talk a little bit about the function that we serve there and is now no longer in Pell's senatorial but is the head of the Claiborne Pell Foundation for human potential since what March 15th something like that recently Scott's been very much involved in the treat process of a new year in an involvement situation in which it's possible to talk about policy issues about science, about clinical issues about physics, about sociology and behavioral science and governmental involvement and so on around experienced anomalous trauma which includes but is not limited to UFOs and Scott and I have gone together to Western Europe twice into the Soviet Union once to extend the community of people who are talking together and doing research and sharing information and expertise into an international community why don't you want to say something about public policy and what the treat is this stuff could we ask Scott to move over by you I told you Scott we'll sit over here apparently has a very similar attitude towards making any statements acknowledging anything about reality they in fact say very little and what they have said is I think sometimes forgotten or misstated after the Project Blue Book was completed and they closed it down they closed it down with a statement that most of the cases or most of the reports are reported that sightings couldn't be explained as natural phenomena and those that couldn't there was a lack of evidence to draw it in conclusion but they did not say there was no such thing as UFOs they said that there was no threat to natural security which I think that may be a lie but in fact it wasn't a flat canile and I imagine that wasn't a casual statement that that was very well thought out and crafted that they said exactly what they wanted to say so that appears to be the public policy as articulated by the Air Force but and that was high enough up the bureaucratic tree and we've lived with that since that time it would appear that our country has had a position first of all I am somewhat close to Lima in my personal belief while I do not have any I spent 30 years in the Navy as a naval pilot and retired in 75 so it was during some of the hot years of UFO activity reported activity and never had sighting myself and so I am just a student reader of what is in the published literature and some that is not that people talk about so I am still looking for my first contact there has been some suggestion with the people that I have dealt with over the years on this that I may have had my own experiences but if so I am music to them and so what they want to say about that I either have or have not but it is not at the conscious level I have had an experience as part of the treat process we think it is a responsible undertaking to attempt treatment and research of experience anomalous trauma treatment treatment it is an acronym coined by Dr. Labo for the purpose of acting as a screening device the first meeting the first meeting do not laugh you passed the test so you got to come but just first meeting was among therapists UFO investigators and parapsychologists interested others like special assistants to Claiborne Pell who although Scott has established credentials in the parapsychology area that are very interesting and there are so many loose cannons and so many inflexible rigid believer types out there that I really wanted to screen for them so I created the phrase experience anomalous trauma and created the center for treatment and research of experience anomalous trauma which happens to spell treat and only those people who recognize the acronym and enjoyed it got to or were you know attracted to it got to get an invitation to the first meeting and it worked there was a lovely community of people who could really talk together flexibly and in a non-rigid way and I decided that it was so useful since I'm a clinician provides such an important framework for the central core of what we're doing that the name has been retained you know earlier the question was what are they up to I don't know I don't think anyone knows I suspect that the agenda assuming the reality of the agenda is quite complex so that it's not answered in one breath or one evening more than that there has been such a diverse reporting of different descriptions of them that they may be represent more than one group you know as far as the universe is concerned this can get into a broader thing let me just limit it down to the I guess what I'm saying is I had what their agenda is although I marvel at the at what is out there and I guess I'm equally impressed with the certainty that many people have that they know precisely why they are here and this does get very quickly into the potential of public policy because one of the scenarios that we hear and there's documents circulated on this is that is there have been deal struck or treaties signed between some of the visiting others and the US government and perhaps other governments there appears to be no evidence for this but it is one of the popular actually it is a part of the explanation why the US government won't come true I mean won't tell the American public what's going on they can't because they have a treaty arrangement in which one of the treaty provisions is the US government will not ever reveal that they allow the aliens to do whatever the aliens are doing you can read that very easily and any of you who have been in the field have read that you know now if that in fact is true and I guess I don't believe it is personally without any evidence that it is true I have to I don't get too much grievance to that particular story but if there is some understanding between the government of the United States and whomever these folks are part of a public policy that is sacred public policy is to keep the US Congress and the American public ignorant of its facts and that so that would be a rather important decision at a high level would the president be informed of this or not I would assume that all the presidents since 1947 whatever the government knows each of the presidents have been briefed on there I find it very difficult although people disagree on this that the president could be excluded from this what I have heard not related to this or anything particular is that there is a whole I don't want to use the word bureaucracy there is a whole administrative group that is their careers they have been doing it for years and they know exactly what they are doing or they think they do anyhow but the president comes and goes and therefore they consider that the president because he comes and goes and they don't know where he is going that they keep these things from the president well let me just theorize that Bill Cooper as a political scientist the thing I find not unattractive or unappealing but unrealistic about this is that no matter how secret and this group is usually identified as a very small group but yet powerful and so who are we talking about I mean how powerful we are talking about senior admirals and generals all of whom report to the commander-in-chief of the United States are we talking about senior civil servants all of whom are subordinate to the senior by excluding the president there is such a political vulnerability that when and let's assume the existence of this small group who are the keepers of the flame of these secrets that won't last forever I mean they will be either exposed or come out and make the announcement if they it is unknown to the president it would be the death of them all politically and one another to now suddenly say to the president oh by the way Mr. President you know for 40 odd years neither you nor anyone else have known about this and we've done the following things and for our own reasons we've decided to tell you okay if it is discovered they are doomed because no matter how powerful they are the president has resources vastly superior to them and so I would think from the political realistic viewpoint that they would have to include the president and moreover I think the president would have to be included in order to be as successful as they apparently have in keeping the secret you have to have for one person if you're going to have such a high level of experience but what about a president for instance who says I don't believe in UFOs that's a lot of nonsense probably that would be all of them going in can you imagine what is in the briefing packet that a new president would get on this the graphics slides of tissue an explanation by a pathologist you know whomever would make up this team fairly well capable of bringing some very impressive evidence to a new president along with a recommendation that whatever what they want to do or what air is going on that he joined and not change the policy what about this president at least with his CIA background must know what's going on certainly the CIA must know what's going on wouldn't you think in this country is successful to keep a secret from those guys what about Barry Goldwater's attempt to this has been well publicized and printed up in various journals in the UFO literature Barry Goldwater was repeated attempts at getting all the blue room and one of his friends highly placed general said here's the main don't ever ask me that question again and it just begs the question as to well will you go from here Barry what do you do do you just stop there or do you try to find out something more about what's going on well from the record that I've seen we share it Senator Goldwater did try rather persistently over a not a small number of years for personal interest and because constituents from Arizona and outside you know people have interest in the field will keep pinging on him you know you're my god you're a U.S. senator very senior you're a reserve Air Force general why can't you get you ought to be able to find out you know check into it I guess we've all seen you and I at least have seen copies of the letters in response to that that he went to the chief of staff there and he was told not only no but hell no and don't bring it up again Barry you're not going to be allowed to get into the blue room whatever the blue room is it's a genuine I mean obviously it's an interesting mystery but one of the things then I'll get off of this to find out something about you all also one of the projects that we have in a way is to see what a what degree what different degree of sensitivity and openness that other countries have compared to the United States actually I don't care to compare them we just want to find out are the Soviets willing to be more forthcoming on the Chinese of the Brazilians or others and so we have had for several years now a very low profile program going actually I got started in China in September of last year I went over there primarily to meet with some parapsychologists but I'd also ask for an opportunity to meet their people interested in UFOs and so they were set aside for this and my the trip that I was on was for two weeks and it was generously facilitated by the Chinese government I had good contacts in the Chinese embassy in the United States civilian and military and I told them the people I wanted to meet and then they facilitated that and so they knew going over with the Chinese what is it Chinese research UFO research organization and they were a little shy about getting the appointment it happened about the 10th day and I kept pushing their buttons to set it up but finally a full professor at the Beijing University of Aeronautics an astronaut who hosted the meeting between the president myself the president the vice president general secretary deputy general secretary of the Chinese UFO research organization and we spent all day together talking about UFOs in China, in the United States and the world it ended up with them responding rather generously to a request that I had first of all they talked quite openly of exchanging information between the Soviet Union one of them going to do some crash material that the Soviets gave them and it was pretty clear that they had assuming that these are true stories at some level an exchange program between an information between the Soviets I said that is wonderful I would like in my country to be a part of it and I think I did say if it's not already but if it is already part of it it is at a level that is not that the people that I deal with know nothing about it at first they didn't believe this but and that took a while took several hours for them to realize that even though I at the time was in government and worked for a very senior senator nobody in Congress and certainly I didn't know anything about what the U.S. government was doing when they when they believed that then we operated a little bit more open and open world play do you do you think that the fact that the Soviets and maybe not so Chinese so much at this point but that we're not at war you know or expecting a cold war does this make it easier to do that or do you think that even when the countries have been politically at odds that groups who have common interests like this which transcend national I mean they have to do with the planet not with there was a certain part of the political part of the plan have they constantly been in contact with each other? I don't know but I can speculate first of all I spent half my name to career in naval intelligence very impressive and I can say generally that for good and sufficient reasons without giving any details there have been all sorts of contacts between countries other enemies while the public and the real policy where we're at each other's foot it's very practical to keep lines of information and communication exchange open medicine does that in the whole medical community Russia and the United States may have been at the Cold War but when you get together it's as if you've got something more important and more general than these politicians who are fighting state that I will end up before I shut up on this point and you provoked it and it's interesting in what's stating but what the Chinese did at the end after they talked about bringing back a Soviet sample and analyzing and sharing exchange with the Soviets I said you know what could I do to be a part of this and they had been talking about a recent series of sightings in China that was going on when I was there and had given me a great deal of detail that had been reported to them some press clipping and also reports that were coming from the field from their people their organization as they described it is quite significant some 40,000 members nationwide and there are 70% of them were professionals they are trained they have a training program for their people and gave considerable details I'll be talking about this at the Mupan Conference in July in Chicago and that it was interesting at first they wanted to maintain that they were a social organization and when they said that they were 40,000 inside I said well that's a very large tea party for you all to get together for a social day it was really quite amicable but this was when we were still trying they were still a little bit hurt that I had not been honest open with but they said finally that the sighting that had been going on for some 85 days in one of the central provinces had ended up in either a crash a landing or a crash and they pulled out an envelope and one third page and they agreed on that in Chinese and if it's a crash what would be the chances of getting some of that crash material what I had done, I had made a pitch to them that if at the non-governmental level if we could establish and maintain an exchange program of information and material associated with this phenomenon we would have a better chance of understanding what is real and what is not real and what it means but that anyone country trying it alone probably or all countries trying it alone probably your predictable failure we're just never going to figure it out and I don't think it's predictable what country and when we'll come up with a piece that makes a very scattered mosaic right now seem to be a random and so I think every country ought to be given a chance to play and now in principle they thought this was interesting and then they dropped a few clues that in fact they're doing this with the Soviet Union and I said well please let our country play at the non-governmental level and I suggested to them because I had thought about this that there would be a minimum of protocol and rules but some two very essential ones is that only unclassified data will be handled that they should not offer nor should anyone take something that is officially classified because that's just too dangerous for both the offers and the the takee and that if information and material is exchanged it will be with the understanding that it is made available to everybody else for your eyes only but what the United States get from China can be shared with Brazil South Africa, Israel, France the Soviet Union and so on and they all agreed on that they thought that was fine and the very end of this is that after an interesting conversation in Chinese that was not translated by my translator and I had learned at that point to be patient when that occurred he reached and got the envelope out again and this time brought out a little folder piece of packet of paper and opened it up and it was full of silver aluminum metal shavings and said that their man in the field had collected and it was translated as sawdust when they were sawing up parts of the crash and asked if I'd like to have some of that and I said yes thinking hard I said yes I would be very pleased to have that and said if you're willing to share it under the terms that we have just discussed it will be the opening realm of this I said if you allow me to take this out I will have it analyzed in the United States and send it back to you and I also would share part of the sample with other countries and they smiled and said that was fine so we're in that process Has it been analyzed? Yes it's been analyzed and I've shared it with the Chinese it has also facilitated an exchange for reciprocal information and samples from the Soviet Union Bravo! and that is being in turn shared back with the Chinese and we hope to ring in other countries also so it's underway I don't know where this is going to go matter of fact to be quite honest with you I don't have high expectation that analysis of these recruited hunks of hardware from a UFO craft is going to be key to understanding what's going on what I think is important in this sort of program is that people start sharing whatever else there is and that it may have the potential of leveraging our country and other countries who have additional information or other information at the classified level to reassess that policy and that I think is worthwhile for example in the United States if the US government does know something of significance and I suspect it does it appears not to have ever shared it with Congress which I find just absolutely incredible and so at least I hope they would reassess that and bring in some key people in Congress to spread that knowledge spread that risk of course I'd like to share it with the US public but I would like to give them cause to believe that their old policy is perhaps going to come unraveled because of an open international effort that might make it interesting for them and I'm not I hope this doesn't come out as a fight my gosh we've got a club and we're going to beat them over the head because I don't believe that would be successful I want what I'm proposing to do is something reasonable on its own merits almost as if there's nothing else going on but strongly suspecting that there is something else going on that this or a program like this would have some impact on excuse me could I ask you two quick questions I know you wanted to hear one but we don't get naval intelligence people that often you know up this neck of the woods but I've felt for years for my own reasons that the Navy's been the one that's dealt with UFOs you want to comment on that at all I've heard that I will say that part of my duties in the Navy I mean first of all the last thing I'm going to say is that I look hard when I was in the Navy for this I really wanted to find out when I was flying off carriers I kept looking for those suckers never saw one and so I said okay that means I never saw one but I you know other people were reporting in and I heard that there were crashes you know and I heard them read about the Roswell incident so I said where's the meat I want to find it and there was a time when I had every significant clearance the Navy had and matter of fact I ran a division in the Navy's scientific and technical intelligence center and it was the division that would have responsibility for that type of hardware and so I reasoned since I had 20 or more engineers working for me if the Navy had anything to do with it I was about to find out alas and I even made a larger effort than that my counterpart had an Air Force and an Army counterpart and the Air Force counterpart was stationed at White Pat Air Force Base and we exchanged the visits every two months he would come and work in my vault and I would come and work in his vault and I waited for this moment around new time now the vault literally is that it's a room inside of a room where the most precious secrets we keep locked up and as a way of assuring you can say anything in there you never allow any external wires to go in it, never any telephone in like that inside the vault and so we're in the vault and we were working on some very difficult and genuine intelligence issues concerning the Soviets and their technology and everyone drifted out and we were about to go to lunch and so I turned to him and I said we never discussed UFOs and so I made a statement something like I had this crystal of interest and I checked all the navy black areas I can't find anything about it what can you tell me and his response was so genuine and so immediate and I've known this person for two and a half years he said you know Scott, I've had the same question and I've looked around here and I can't find a damn thing he was either lying to me or he wasn't and I had no way of dethroning and then just one other quick question is when I write to my congressman as I regularly do about the UFO phenomena as well as senators and the president I'm invariably referred to NASA why? I never get a personal response well from what? from the senators? because they don't know anything about it I mean besides I mean that's typical anyhow I mean this is the typical response as a staffer and we did that we make a guess, you know who knows something about this and I think in our office we would probably have referred you to the Air Force and the Air Force would have sent you a little packet saying Project Blue Book lasted from so and so and so and so and was closed down because there was no credible you know that sort of thing I don't know what does NASA tell you? NASA sends me a very polite letter saying that they don't understand my letter but no I find it interesting because over the years I've had various responses usually from the Air Force but in the last five to six years it's always been NASA and I always thought and considering NASA has some of the most vocal critics of the UFO phenomena I find that innocuous are you familiar with the Zachariah section books? yeah I know him personally he's a very interesting man then you know the I'm really having trouble shutting up but you've provoked this yeah I'm really interested the Chronicles in particular the Genesis Revisited in which he gives in one of the latter chapters I think it's the last chapter he talks about and gives the full quotes from President Reagan's three speeches and then from Gorbachev's speech on this subject and this was after Gorbachev and the President had gotten together and the core of what President Reagan said was that wouldn't we on earth come together and forget our squabbles and our problems if we were threatened by something somewhere outside and and he used the word alien he used from another planet and there were several different constructions but the thesis was the same thing some of you may know that some of the UFO researchers were intriguing they wrote to White House and they asked who was responsible for drafting that speech for the President assuming that it would be NASA or the Air Force or the Navy or something like that the response they got back was that they checked with the Presidents with the speechwriter's office and the speechwriter group said that this was the President's personal opinion search that's right and Gorbachev acknowledged that he had talked to the President about this and essentially said that if he wouldn't argue what the President had to say but as I recall he thought that the the immediacy of it over the time was a little different and one wonders because it's in the chapter and in the book the Genesis visited whether the Soviet astronomers and the U.S. astronomers have a disagreement of when the 10th planet would be back in and that's what Gorby was saying you've missed it by 150 years it's not going to happen in my lifetime and of course it's right, it won't happen in his lifetime but don't you think this has been something about human beings that history has demonstrated many times that people who are disagreeing when they have a common enemy I mean just the Gulf War has done that with us and over and over again there's no better way to get people to cohere than to have a common enemy now if we could say that the human race on this planet has a common enemy I wonder what would happen I thought that was a very interesting idea you brought up please don't give me credit for it I am appalled that the President would make that statement first of all I doubt that he has the data that they are the enemy but if anyone wants to make if there's anything easy to do in life is to make enemies that really doesn't take my skill and that's what that's the message I got from Reagan that he's making enemies out of him whatever for if he's got something if they deserve to be enemies I'd like to know what it is did you know that a letter exists from the Pentagon that was written in conjunction with that statement that Reagan made from one of the people at the Pentagon actually one of the Undersecretaries one of the generals saying that the President is keenly aware of the threat and is taking steps to reverse the situation and a week after the letter was written and mailed and the person read it and called the Pentagon the person was fired and disappeared and that's true I just want to know you have a copy? yeah because a guy from Long Island wrote it a friend of mine and he's the one who's appeared? no the gentleman at the Pentagon he was transferred he was like goodbye well I would like to amplify something that Scott just said when Treat 1 was in process that was May of 1989 just about a year ago as a matter of fact two years ago exactly two years ago you want to say what that is? well let him confer it to you yes but I thought that was very very very interesting do compare it what is that we're looking at? we'll talk about it the DNA of the metal in both cases is rather interesting when Scott said one of the few things that he said publicly at that meeting and I was impressed by the fact we did not know each other at that point had not worked together had only spoken on the telephone several times and I was impressed by the fact that I thought it was one of the dumbest things I'd ever heard anybody say well as a matter of fact that's the point of what I'm going to say Scott we were talking about what needed to be done and where our focus needed to go was the last day and it was the final session and it was a where do we go from here kind of discussion and Scott said and people were talking about aliens and enemies and evil genetic manipulation and so forth and Scott said we ought to be asking what kind of poetry they have what kinds of songs what kind of music they have and how they may belong and do they eat have you gotten up to dessert and I thought I can't believe that someone reasonably sagacious at least on the telephone would say something that silly well I've undergone a fairly major shift in my thinking about this and that's true in many areas but in one of the important areas is that ascribing first of all assuming they exist ascribing a status of enmity and alienness to these beings without having documentation that that is accurate and in fact creating a stance of enmity probably is the worst possible thing that we can do both for ourselves and for our relations with these guys who do exist and I think you know it's not unreasonable to think that it's within the realm of probability that they might very well if even if they in fact are an enemy if we turn together in a mode of turning against them we will inevitably destroy ourselves I think that's also true of human history if we turn together in an effort to turn towards them should they in fact exist I think that rather than destroying ourselves we offer ourselves the possibility of coming together in a major way of significance and I think that's it I have come to think much more in line with what Scott was saying whether or not they have poetry whether or not they have the same value system we have to band together in enmity eventually turn against one another after the immediate threat is lifted over when the squabbles begin the revolution each of its children will turn them together in fear also consumes the people who do so I think the major philosophical part of this question It's an interesting thing that I'm not the only person that has a pointy piece of metal I feel like better than I did another pointy piece of metal okay that metal don't have a pedigree on it we have been told what it is it was given to us when we were actually mailed to us after we had visited some scientists in Menengra one of whom has a very responsible position in the all the Soviet all union what is it? he is the program chairman for the next conference from the all union commission on anomalous phenomena which is a unit of the Academy of Sciences he is also the senior scientist of Menengra Sergei Kuzumov but Sergei the first day was there we were talking about crash and whether or not the Soviets had been told previously by some friends in Moscow that oh yes they had crash material laid down and so we were trying to put the squeeze on to share some reports some information could we visit the barn where you keep this stuff and they were actually they were sweating about it they were friends of mine and I had worked with them for some years in the field for psychology but now we had opened it up and we are now in the area of u.k. biology and I had told them that I wanted not the ground rules but the understanding was that I am interested in what you can share but only if it is openly shared that it is not classified and still are struggling of a way of getting it out of their system so that they can safely give it to me and that I can safely carry it out of the Soviet Union so that we can share it openly I have some hopes that in fact we will get something significant from the Soviets I mean from Moscow well I mean quite a an independent mind young scientist when we were talking about this sort of said well yes we have crash material and said well you know I would be excited to see that and he said well it is somewhere around the house and Rema said you think you could find it smiling prettily I think I will look for it and so he brought it in the next day and it was a hunk about like this and he told us that it was from a crash and of course it was known because the location and the date and he said this is from a and said he had a report about it that he would be willing to share it with us and in fact he brought that in and that was a Sunday and he said okay let's go get a copy of it and he said nowhere in Leningrad can you get a copy made on Sunday so we then waited impatiently for several months before we got the report and eventually well that was a wonderful piece he was a very straight earnest young man and he said that he thought he could find it and he had been he had wanted to turn it into earrings and Scott said later that he thought he was going to have to prime you off this young man's throat and do a card CPR on me there was a strong response like earrings you turned this into earrings we had a chunk of anonium and you made it into earrings it turned out that a psychic friend of his told him that the aliens did not want this made into earrings Anya was working for the scientific establishment of the aliens and he reframed therefore because he values on his input he did manage to find it and bring it the next day and has in fact shared with us the preliminary report and now we are I gave him a fax because we thought that was the he was here in March I thought that was the easiest way to communicate directly I gave him an international fax that would work on soviet voltage and telecom lines and being an engineer he just couldn't resist I had a phone call with him yesterday that Scott doesn't know about yet he couldn't resist so he had it rewired and he's been toying with it for several months he had it what? rewired because yes it would work but it was so much more interesting to make it really adapted to so now the fax works and we can get the documents directly but there is a package coming with the technical reports following the preliminary report on this sliver which is where yes which is there about the composition have you had it analyzed? it's being analyzed now in the soviet we have in the soviet report that we got there are only about a page and a half that directly address the sample the rest of the fifty odd pages I've had it translated is a highly theoretical speculation by a rather respected scientist of the soviet union but he has a theory on the energy field associated with the UFOs and he only incidentally the sample well we have subsequently learned that there is a much more detailed report which presumably is on its way by federal express that doesn't know about that either there was a good phone call yesterday I'm delighted that there was a line which I got in a lot less dramatic way but maybe or maybe not more directly but I wanted to ask you a question let me first answer the rest what magic do you disappear all the stuff the page and a half to which got referred had some very interesting and highly suggested information which is true is going to be truly fascinating but soviet technology and instrumentation is not wonderful they say that this sample is comprised of eight elements this one unlike the chinese alloy at a large formulation are these eight elements that we know about that occur on this planet here that is all we should ever expect to have the analysis come out in terms of elements that we know about that sounds like an unextraordinary statement but think about it what else would we what we only can describe but there could be something else in it but we wouldn't have the means of knowing I'm saying that we can only test for what we know we might the interesting thing in this if this elemental analysis is correct and I must tell you that the elemental analysis that they did of the chinese sample was incorrect there were three elements we have good reason to believe that we got quite accurate information about the chinese sample which was repeated in two separate laboratories that didn't know of each other's work and so on and so on there's no question that it was a known and standard alloy metallurgical formulation there were a few anomalies but nothing today if it's accurate this sample that was just passed around is not a known functional alloy and it has some weird properties including allegedly and we don't know if this is true we need to replicate this allegedly it's only one-third as dense as it should be but then again the soviets don't know much about polymer metallurgy and there may be air bubbles in this sample and our scandal on microscope will tell us that supposedly chunks repel each other which is repel each other which is not standard metallurgical but they must have a magnetic property but we don't know whether that's true it doesn't have a magnetic property to some other metal and that's the question oh by the way can I pass this around and have you put your names and addresses down so I can address your mailing list can I ask you do you have access to do you have access to translators to translate Russian because if you're interested I've got like 20 files in Russian if you want them I just got them so they're brand new or you may already have enough stuff for your own I can help you with those they sent me I wrote to them 2 years ago they sent me 100 files in Russian they're very cooperative they're very cooperative they're really tremendous people at least I find them that way anyway do you have the titles of the material do you know what you have I don't speak Russian but I know that what I've gotten from them in the past has ranged from newspaper articles to internal memos to just investigator reports by volunteer investigators that work with Russian UFO organizations all kinds of goodies I think a lot of it's correlated together in fact I had applied to the fund for UFO research but they're too busy giving but Hopkins might hypnotize me they don't have any money for my translations but anyway I really feel that there might be some good stuff in there in fact I think one is about a Russian UFO crash or a recent vintage because he did mention that he writes English but it's broken English it's not the best but he did mention that I'd love to find out this one also has some newspaper articles with photos which are very interesting as well I have somebody here in Westchester who's been providing shampoo who's been providing some services for us and I could have him scan the ones that you think are interesting to see whether there's anything worth going forward with transportation can be a fairly expensive I know I had a person living right near me that did it and he moved I know a girl that could do a great job for you with that she worked for me and is now here in Westchester and in fact I'm going to see her tomorrow okay sounds good to me if you could ask I'll give it to you because I've got all the stuff sitting around it's really tragic because she can do it for you either English or German wow because I always run into that problem it's too expensive to be afforded I mean I spend too much now and UFOs would be pretty ridiculous to take for the translation I've tried questions interesting this whole idea of the government trying to make enemies of these people or not and the Bushmen who are just intrinsically friendly and don't know how enough to be friendly are inhospitable and so with them their relationship to these poor people is a problem because they come from the start they give them giraffe meat and they give them little presents and it's an absolutely relaxed sort of thing I mean there is casualty if somebody drops into the next door and either is not introduced depending on where the conversations go and my question is and I think the idea started with Dawson's alliance and in that connection we got around with J.D. and I and he tore a chair and rumped in between and I thought it was a deal with and you know hoax are not depending on how you feel about it but the interesting thing was that there was that these two girls had created obviously were channeling something and had created both having been raped in their homes had created these guys with swords and they were both 8 feet tall and could kill anything I mean they sort of never seemed to kill already with a limb but my question is if these entities being people or whatever they are have perhaps an extra dimensional quality instead of an extra terrestrial quality what do you say an extra dimension extra dimensional in other words if they possibly have access to another dimension which clearly exists in places like the pyramid in that pyramid it's a reality physical reality is a way of getting into another dimension that we can't describe because we don't know what's for it something happens to you and there you come out you don't know what it is but you know what's happened because the question is is it possible perhaps that the way we these people is the way in fact it's our perspective that dictates whether they are friendly or not aggressive and hostile and insecure because the guy's got a weapon that he can't handle sees him as an enemy well it's a really really important question and I want to answer the three levels and then you can take it as you like first of all at the factual it doesn't hide the difference what sort of story you're looking for level a couple of studies have been done now remember we're in an embryonic primitive point in all of this and everything that's been done is preliminary or worse studies have been looking at correlations between a the personality of the hypnotist and the stories that the hypnotist evokes in regression with UFO episodes and be the personality styles, factors and associative styles of the people who tell the UFO scenarios and looking for correlations there in both cases nothing has turned up so far in fact oh this is a little tidbit from tree 3 Doug Richards who's the director of research at Atlantic University found that dissociation tendencies were likely to be one quarter as prominent in UFO scenario tellers as in channelers as in folks having other kinds of paranormal experiences I just think that's interesting people who tell UFO scenarios are one quarter as prone to dissociation as people who channel for instance or as people who have out of body experiences folks who have that kind of paranormal loosening tend to have very similar dissociative patterns UFO folks tend to be substantially less likely to use dissociation as a technique in the same way that people who can in religious context get themselves to a state where they can dissociate and go into trance in that sense as well because they are living within the myth as opposed to being outside and observing UFO people don't seem to be immersed in the myth as a group which is interesting or if they are they don't do it through dissociation but anyway there have been some preliminary studies about what determines what kind of story you get what kind of story you recall or put out and so far we don't see very much correlation I see on an anecdotal basis quite a lot of interesting stuff about confabulation that serves psychodynamic needs very very nicely but that does peel away in a reliable and predictable way with one level of answer to the question the second level of answer to the question is that there are cultures in which you don't have to go into a state of traumatic distress having had these experiences because they're predicted they're expected and they're in fact in some ways encouraged they're supported by the folklore the myth system and so on so the socio-cultural aspect of the distress is going to be reduced and therefore the confabulatory elements may be different but the most significant answer and the least clear one for me is that and this is something that as I said as I indicated when two years ago when Scott was making his comment about what we needed to do I was totally unsympathetic to this notion so this has been a personal evolution for me whatever the impact on the individuals might be whether they experience hostility or whatever probably has more to do with our end of it than with the data as it seems to lay out let me give you a parenthetical version here the index patient who brought me this UFO stuff to begin with and who's gone on to have more and more and more and more experiences and they go back early into life and she's got all kinds of anomalous scarring and this and that and the other thing she is a physician and she's a very very good observer she noticed that one particular creature wearing a black suit with silver like discharges silver discharges across appeared and when this creature appeared she felt absolutely overwhelming disorganizing animal terror but the creature didn't do anything the creature didn't do anything to warrant such terror and she observed she'd seen it several times and she observed that when this creature moved away from her the terror decreased markedly seemed to follow the inverse square law and when it came closer the terror increased and again seemed to follow the inverse square law in terms of intensity and she reasoned that this was a very logical overflow or side effect of whatever the static represented whatever kind of field the creature was emitting or involved in or somehow participating in now when you think about and this is an unusual good observer so we have an unusual piece of information but if you think about the projection into these creatures about meaning and intent and motivation perhaps a lot of what's going on has to do with our expectation of what feeling this way and it might be a logical overflow from the situation from being lifted up from the gravitational field messed up from God knows what then kind of projected onto the exterior world and objectified when we don't have any data about what their intent really is we have a lot of data about the fact that their intent seems to or their involvement seems to indicate that they don't really have a good grasp of emotions in the way that we do and seem to do whatever they're doing in a rather clinical detached way if they're there of course so it may be that these things are biologically engineered robots a lot of people have suggested that that's one thing that's always interested me in all of these stories that these people don't act as if they're emotionally guided or emotionally stimulated but on the other hand there are interactions reported with creatures that are generally taller and look somewhat different that do have emotionality attached to them and the I think if we pre-judge what we're looking at and what their intent is by the experience that that interaction generates in us we're in a big problem and I want to say one other thing that is that has been walking around a possibility has been suggested of a mode of communication which I think is so interesting that I'm putting together the experiment and in fact have dragged Scott into the experiment not dragged, Scott is it I presume you are willing to participate is at least the participant in which I think it's possible to use the capacity for human group mind development through such devices as alpha training and shared by feedback which I just spent last week doing to create a harmonious deeply harmonious relationship between human beings all for that to dolphins in the course of developing a group mind with the dolphins and then if the model is right, well first of all that's going to be very interesting and that's going to yield a tremendous amount of information and if anybody has a boat that they'd like to make available to us I know some people that would cooperate with you in dolphin research The Enneagram and all that People who do the Enneagrams Ah, what we The dates are, as a matter of fact, set. June 8th through June 16th will be the first of these dolphin swims. And then, if the model is correct, the information suggests that it will be likely to create an energy device, and this group-bind beyond species, which would make the signal audible to a group of extraterrestrials who look like the little guys who are perhaps hierarchical to them in some way. Now, even if that part of the model does not come to be, it's worth doing, I think, because of what we're going to learn about human consciousness, because the underlying, I mentioned that there's been a change for me, part of the underlying reality that's become clear for me. And this is a personal thing, this is not a treat, this is my personal experience. Is that whether or not it has anything to do with the alien agenda, assuming the aliens exist, what becomes possible is a kind of maturation of human consciousness. You spoke about inter-dimensionality. In the course of developing this kind of global consciousness or group-mind, human consciousness changes. If it is possible to connect with the aliens in this way. There are several consequences of doing that, one of which is they seem to live in a domain that's different from ours and sometimes connect with ours and sometimes don't. But if the domains are connected by this energy device, then part of the model suggests, and it's all highly hypothetical, that it would be like opening a window between that domain and ours, and the light as opposed to light and darkness, and attention entropy, anti-entropic forces that we live with, and that may destroy us, the darkness of that duality. Our light may well flood into their domain, and their light may flood into ours, changing in essence the kinetic energy and the potential energy of the system, and giving us perhaps more options for dealing with the planetary problems. Well, there's a guy in California in Santa Monica who's been financed by Josh Reynolds, definitely edgy guys in our society in terms of near the cliffs, and he built a screen that's about, I guess, about three feet long and two feet high that's filled with liquid coarse crystal, which he says he energizes with 600,000 volts. I don't know what he runs in there, but there's a hell of a home from outside this plant when they fire it up. And I went into an experiment there once where he said just visualize, look at the screen and visualize, and when the electricity comes on and all these coarse crystals are going, you can in fact create, if you see a spiral, you see a spiral, and if you see little cubes, you see little cubes, it's extraordinary. And at some point during the thing before I passed out, I did pass out for like an hour, but very strange, but at some point stuff came flying out of that window in the finest traditions of the Hollywood thriller where the ghosties come out through the window. I mean, there was this cotton-like sort of stuff flying out of the screen. I mean, I was ducking, I was thinking, jeez, you know. And then I stopped. Did you catch anything? No, I got very unable to reason, finally a move or anything that passed out, and the whole thing happened over 45 minutes. They're working with this thing now. This was like in December that this happened. But they really think that they have created... An interdimensional window? Gizmo that's potentially an interdimensional window. I can't tell you exactly what I saw, but certainly it was strange, and certainly you could look at that thing and see a spiral and a spiral would form, and you could in fact authorize it to do things. I mean, I got so fascinated with it at one point before all the stuff started to come. I would say you brought up the dimensional concept of this. I suspect that the number of the room, I'm familiar with, Jacques Ballet and some others who have written about the... Well, I think it's a very viable hypothesis of beginning to explain what is going on, whether the entities that we associate with UFOs are from the visual universe or from an invisible universe. That is, they are from another dimension, rather than from the plateies or something like that. And I think either option, either hypothesis, I think it's just as attractive as the other. In fact, and of course, one doesn't exclude the other either. And so, that's just a comment that I have about the dimensional concept. Well, there's a child in Santa Cruz whose name is Adrián de Mello. I think I got that right. He was in the tablet about a year ago. He's the son of a friend of somebody that I knew a year ago. And he's got some... He was off the scale. Her talk is not this good. He was trying to get a Stanford at age 11 or whatever it was, and he was designing, busily designing a computer when I was there with its own language. And I said, Jim, her talk, our friend to see him, and he told her talk that he had been told what language to teach this computer by his friends. When he completed this computer, which presumably, now I'm not a computer person, responded in a language all its own to this child genius, they said about building a fourth computer, which his child said was going to be an empathic computer. He was being taught how to build it. The computer would respond to his moods and his psychological changes, and he refers fairly obliquely to his friends who tell him how to do this. But the kid beats his father to the chest, after a chest from the age of four, and you know, he's that kind of wonderful child. Yes, you know, Boris, some of the things that you've been touching on, I have a direct correlation to a lot of the material I've come across since I've been a member of the United States Psychiatrist Association. This is an organization that has been in existence since the beginning of the 80s. I didn't join until I became a member. Look, he's been the president. Wait, wait, that's the New York City chapter. The original name of the organization was the United States Radionics Society. And radionics was something I just could not believe in. There's no way that a board with knobs on it and then no wires connecting it could bring about or create a phenomenon that people who operated these radionic devices said that they could, through a series of rub, a rub plate and turning these knobs, they could influence things of the distance. These people at Oxford. Right. Yeah, visited them. Well, since then, well, they changed the name of the organization, the United States Psychiatrist Association. And it seemed that many of the people on the board of directors were people who worked for a lot of the companies that did special work for the government. And whether it was a CIA or NSA or whoever. And a lot of these people had interest in UFOs. And a lot of these men, although they were, could not directly produce any of the things that they had created for the government, such as devices that actually could influence a person's consciousness by mind control and a distance using electromagnetic technology. They also, they made other devices which were like healing devices. For example, this is supposed, this is a Tesla watch. You know, this is, you know, you're familiar with the Tesla watch. You, okay, you have one of the early ones. You made from Andrea? This is, this is Andrea. I can't wear it. Right. This is the one. This is what I thought it was, watches? Based on Andrea's principle. Yeah. What is it all about? I don't know anything. Well, it's supposed to send out a field of energy or cocoon that protects the individual from a certain extremely low frequency radiation. That it could be very harmful, cause depression or some others, kind of just a state of crisis. But that's all prayer to the fact that now that I've become more familiar with this field and started reading it, the area it takes in issues of healing, parapsychology, UFOs, hundreds of other areas of interest that really many of the people who are here tonight are interested in. About two and a half years ago, I gave a conference in New York called Cosmogate in which I had a number of people from some of these areas lecture on why is the government hiding all of this information and how can we go about getting, having a breakthrough in this regard. Now, it hasn't really happened quite the way I thought it would, but actually I began to see that there has been an increase in the number of people who are developing devices. And I would think it's random because it's spread across the country, but there are lots of people doing similar kinds of things that this young man, well, you saw one fellow with a screen, another one developing an incredible computer that's empathic, and other people who are developing other kinds of devices, numerous, numerous, too numerous to even get into. But a lot of these devices are out there, and that's another area that I think that people should be aware of. You are absolutely right. Three weeks ago I was down in Lakemont, Georgia with Peter Kelly and both Betar. What? The Betar? The Betar. For those of you who don't know what the Betar is, Betar stands for just happy to have with me a file on Betar. And I have my data from the Betar ride, which was phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal. Betar seems to stand for its bioenergy that I will pass around. Anyway, it's a phase conjugation or time-reversed signal device using scalar waves, which takes the... I don't know what that means. I'm glad you... Sounds nice to me. It does remarkable things. It takes the energy field of the body from 4 to 16 hertz and feeds back altered waveforms based on the sampling of what the body's response to or the energy field's response to music that's put into the environment. What's it to 16 hertz? What happens? Well, one of the things... It would be hard, bad for the body to have something so unnatural happen. Well, one puts out, apparently, according to Peter, one puts out an energy field from 4 to 16 hertz on an ordinary basis. We're not talking about EEG because there were no couples to the body. It was simply lying on the table with a series of transducers beneath them picking up and responding to and putting back in the waveforms. A number of things happened. There were strong psychic kinds of events, including precognitive ones for me. There was... I wouldn't say I passed out. I would say I entered Samadhi because it's the same thing that happens when I meditate. I have some very interesting printouts of the data during those episodes where they basically just blew out the scale on the energy measurement. And according to Peter, I can't tell you that this was true because I was out in the void. But according to Peter, I levitated four times, which I take to be an indication of either Peter's lack of honesty, which I haven't seen to be the case so far, or the fact that there is an incredible interaction with matter in its ordinary state when these fields are generated and stimulated in particular way. That's one little piece of it. That's my introduction to psychotronics. I had previously been rather closed-lined about this, and I said basically, oh, I get it. There's something really important here. But as I began to rapidly pursue this area, I realized just exactly what you're saying, that there are major links to these areas that we're talking about. One of the things that we never got to this evening is that as the UFO portion of TREAD unfolded, I began to see that we had to deal with parapsychology. I don't know if Scott remembers, but there was a member of Scott as the President of the American Society for Psychical Research. Newly re-elected today. Congratulations. They never learned. And I was very closed-minded about parapsychology. I was willing to deal with this UFO stuff, but not parapsychology. I thought that was weird. And I realized that virtually everybody who was telling UFO stories had parapsychological lives that dated from their UFO experience. And I was also seeing parapsychological trauma people and non-trauma people. And many, when they trusted me, would confide that they had had which either began or greatly amplified their parapsychological lives and Scott's experience quite independent of mine replicated that with the people that he's working with. So I called up Scott one day and I said, Look, Scott, it's clear to me that if we're going to deal with the UFO stuff and really understand it, we're going to have to deal with this parapsychology shit. And Scott very kindly was silent for a moment and he said, yes, that is correct. You bring that issue of the parapsychological factor as part of the ongoing need for your organization to move forward. Andrea Pujaric, who we mustn't know, has on more than one occasion stated that the government, the United States government and all governments major governments have used psychics for various and sunk reasons. I would find it of some interest to know if you, Scott, have ever discovered whether or not our government admits to using psychics No, that's full of an answer. They don't admit to it. But it doesn't establish whether they have or not the way you pose the question. That's true. I have words in your mouth, but in fact there is a significant part of the government there isn't without the answer there is a part of the government that deals with psychics all the time and that is the secret service. They're not very happy about it, but they do in fact. Like policemen. Elective policemen. They're constantly being they would consider harass and harangue people walking in, calling in, writing in and I happen to know this because I've worked with the secret service on these issues when I got out of the government after I retired from the Navy and I talked about it and I got back to Washington and guided back here and for a few years I tried to get the government interested in what I called applied psychics phenomenon and that is to market it the only folks that showed any interest the folks who showed the most interest was the intelligence community but what they were willing to spend with me was peanuts, you know I think what they wanted to do was to find out you know if I had the people that I was working with they had any skills and when they found that out then I was sort of out of the loop at that point no need to deal with me but in fact the government has dealt with psychics I have talked about this publicly I think the record probably if we could get it all out there would show a series of of small unauthorized I'm just interested that I have some discretionary money to spend managers trying something psychic with a result that either is a null so they shrug and somebody said I told you that damn stuff wouldn't work so that's the end of it or it is successful and gets noticed and someone senior to them says Clarence if you ever do that again you will never make GS14 and so that collapses and there is probably not any written record of this as a taxpayer and talking theoretically about these things that may happen I am upset because that is certainly not the way to learn or to advance yourself is trying things in secret and whether they work they don't work that's data that we need to consider and do something about so I sort of envision these little blips going on for the last 30 or 40 years and we really never learned much from it the second question is how does Clarence how get interested in the stuff that you are interested in well he is the Renaissance person he just really has brought interest and he heard about me because of some work that I did one of the small contracts that I had with him I mean there is not that not that many nuns in Washington who have an interest in this so we get to know each other and he heard about me and he called me up and said he heard about me what I had recently done and would appreciate would like to meet me until we met became personal friends for several years and it was the thing that I was doing this time for not for the intelligence community and excuse my vagueness but I the understanding is I really won't talk specifically about this anyhow what I did for them was help them in some way solving a very difficult problem and they were appreciative enough and it's been pro bono from my company I was working with to say gee you know this was great what can we help and what can we do for you and I said I've been in and out of your offices for a number of weeks here and I know because what you've told me I know how you interact with people claiming to be psychic or psychic information I can come up with something that would assist you so I came up with a plan it was a good one from good proposal because it could be done and it was inexpensive and they were tempted to do it but when they had it passed by three of their behavioral psychologist consultants it was the end of the world and they their negative recommendations so terrorized them that they said no we can't do this and I told them I said well you know I'm disappointed that you were responding this way but in fact it's the correct decision for you because if you go in this with the fear of being caught by Proxima I was still giving the golden police at that time and they said quite frankly that's what we're concerned about that Proxima are here about this or that Jack Anderson will hear and we'll get rid of them and I said well don't do it because you're very likely to fulfill that fear but I was still upset because it was so reasonable and potentially cost effective thing that I wanted to do that I wrote pal a little note and he knew what I was doing anyhow and I told him I said what we need to do is to find someone inside government like a senior senator who has an interest in this field and see what we can do with networking inside