 So, back to my words about Jagdish Babu, who was an important component of, was an important collaborator for Italo project. He wrote a lot of the code, both the Java side as well as he worked on the Solidity side and he, and people are using his code even today. So especially the climate, climate accounting SIG and the Firefly guys also expressed interest because it is such a novel concept, ERC 1155. But back to Jagdish Babu, unfortunately he passed away and I want to recognize and memorialize him in this meeting just to say how lucky we were to have his presence in this, in our collaboration and how much he contributed to this enterprise to Italo. Thank you Jaga, wherever you are. And with that, I now introduce Dr. Franklin Knoll, who is the president of Knoll Historical Consulting and he's going to talk to us about a novel concept probably created by Andrei Lipkin and others, but he will introduce the concept and go on from there. Let's hear him. I'm sorry that it's taken seven minutes for us to get started, but we had to go through these important announcements. Thank you again, doctor. Let's hear from you, maybe a couple of words about what Knoll, Knoll Historical Consulting does and let's take it from there. Thank you. Well, hi everybody and thanks for inviting me to give a presentation. I am, like I said, Knoll, president of Knoll Historical Consulting and our major focus is monetary history, the technology of money. We talk to or consult with mainly the US Treasury, sometimes the Fed and private groups or private companies who are dealing with, let's say banknotes, maybe monetary policy or these days it's all about crypto. So we're all busy in that field. And so that's where I'm basically at now. I have colleagues, one is Andre Lipkin, who will talk about a little bit later and Nick Sharer and you're focusing Nick does heritage management. Say if you want a history of your company written or want to do some marketing based on your history, he's the guy Andre deals with hybrid banknotes and other blockchain issues dealing with money and banknotes. And I'm the historian and this is where it's all started. So I'm not an economist. I am a historian and I approach all these matters from a slightly different perspective than an economist does. And so let's just start talking about hybrid banknotes and I'll turn my camera off and we can focus on the slides. Okay, there we go. So what we're really talking about is the future of payments. And as you know, you are kind of in a transition now between cash and digital means and cash is not going to go anywhere, though many people expect in the crypto world think cash is going to disappear the day after tomorrow. That's probably not going to happen. People have been forecasting or predicting the end of cash since the late 1960s and they'll hear. So it's going to probably be around for another generation. And so what we need to start thinking about is some kind of transitional device, something that will take us from everybody using cash until we all start using digital platforms. Or using our phones or some other digital platform. And what makes the most sense for me and for many others is the hybrid banknotes. So let's just do a quick introduction here. Everybody knows cash. This all looks familiar to everybody. But if you look at it in terms of a monetary technology, it's a very robust technology. It's been around quite some time and still around and it's there for a reason. One thing about cash is it can be used by everyone everywhere all the time. You don't need a phone. You don't need electricity. You don't need anything. You can do a face to face transaction with cash. And over the centuries that we've had cash it's become very familiar and even very comforting to us. We know how to handle cash. We know how to budget with it. We know how to keep it safe, et cetera, et cetera. You don't have to know anything about your phone or private keys or public keys. You just have this piece of paper or polymer and you can do what you want with it. The downside is cash can be expensive. It's expensive to keep safe, to handle, to truck around. So there are downsides to it. Plus it also impedes a lot of what the digital world can bring to us. For example, cash makes remittances kind of slow and kind of expensive. You can't do any smart money with it. You can't build in smart contracts to your money as you could with a blockchain of some sort. So for example, a central bank can't go negative with its interest rates because cash is always there sitting at 0%. But with smart money, you could go negative or you could even do a positive remuneration on your digital money. Let's say you want to implement an economic stimulus of some sort. You could make smart contracts in your digital money. Say if you buy pre-cox, those dollars will go further than dollars spent elsewhere. And also with digital, you could do immediate government payments as everybody wanted during the COVID crisis. So there's upsides and downsides to both these technologies. And one way to bring it all together is to create a hybrid. It combines the advantages of cash and of digital monies. And basically a hybrid bank note is a traditional bank note that has the ability to access an electronic network and transfer value. The value on the note can be transferred via an electronic network when it's on to do it. But if you have a hybrid bank note and you just want to use it in the traditional way, you never have to connect to a network if you don't want to. And other attributes to a hybrid bank note is it's not a card. It's not a debit card. It's not a MONDEX or a whisper cash card. It is a piece of paper or a piece of polymer. And there's a specific reason for that. So it's denominated. It's not a debit card. It doesn't have multiple values. It has its value that's printed on its surface. And that's the value that can be transferred. And you cannot transfer a fraction of it. It's the whole amount or nothing. And over time, there's been two basic models of hybrid bank notes that have come about. And I'll talk about these. One is a smart bank note. A smart bank note basically has a chip. And the chip allows it to talk to a network. A crypto bank note does not have QR codes. And you can see that on the slide here, that both these bill have QR codes on how it talks to an electronic network. So that's the basics. OK, if we start going to the history, the idea of hybrid really rose in the 90s, believe it or not. And the first mention I found was in 1996, someone applied for a patent to put a chip in a bank note and to use it for security purposes. It was an anti-counterfeiting measure. And this idea caught on by 2001, the European Central Bank, the Bank of Japan, and others were thinking of putting chips in their high-denomination notes, again, for security purposes. And they were going to use a MewChip, which I think came out of Hitachi. By 2008, Hitachi had created Arthid Powder, which is, I think, 16 macrons across. And again, the central banks were looking at putting these chips into their notes, again, primarily for security purposes. When we get to 2010, here we have a picture of Ignacio Maas, who was working at the Gates Foundation, and he thought that maybe we can use these chips, a smart bank note that can transfer value. And his concern was financial inclusion. He wanted to make a smart bank note that would make cash handling cheaper. For example, you could ship bank notes that had no value and then charge them on site or basically turn the notes off so that they weren't so expensive to keep safe. As I said, this is in 2010. He writes his first paper working from the Gates Foundation, looking, use a smart bank note with a chip in it to expand financial inclusion. And I'll give you the basic layout, which I'll expand upon a bit later, that you would have a bank note and it would have a chip in it and it would also have electronic ink on it. So his idea was that you could have a bank note that's denominated and it could either be activated or deactivated. If it was activated, it had its face value stored in it. You could transfer that value. If it was deactivated, it was just a piece of paper and had no value in it. And you would be able to tell whether it was activated or deactivated by the electronic ink. The note might get grayed out if it had no value or some other method would make it readily apparent to everyone that your note had no value in it. So Ignacio Mas, to develop this idea, pulled in consult Hyperion, which many of you may know is David Birch's company. And Paul Macon and Andrew Whit come from his company, researched this and started to develop the idea of a smart bank note. In fact, they came up with the label smart bank note. And here we have a slide from one of Paul's PowerPoints from way back when 2010, 2011. And they gravitated towards using a card. They figured if you're going to use a chip, you might as well just put it in a card and make it more of a debit type card where you could have multiple values and these values would be shown on the card in electronic ink. Unless you would have an active icon or symbol of some sort. The problem with this was Paul and Andrew recognized this is, one, if you're using these really big chips here, you can hack them. You can start messing with them, change the values in them, things like that. So using a card instead of a traditional bank note would cause a massive pushback from the cash industry and also from everyday users who wanted or were used to having this piece of paper. And over time, this idea of having a note with a chip in it got picked up here and there by different countries, Saudi Arabia and others, but it never came off. Mostly it's a problem of the technology wasn't ready yet. Back in 2010, Paul and Andrew said, the technology to roll out the smart bank note probably won't exist until 2020 or 2025. And sure enough, last year a new company called Noteworthy was started to create a smart bank note based on Bitcoin using the Bitcoin blockchain and they are currently developing a smart bank note that will be backed by Bitcoin. Paul sends is the driving force behind that. So those are smart bank notes. The other thing we have are crypto bank notes. And these arose basically around the same time that Ignacio Maas was thinking about smart bank notes with chips in them. Around 2010, 2011, people picked up the idea of a paper wall for Bitcoin and figured well, we can put a denomination on this and start passing them hand to hand. And when somebody wanted to transfer value, they would use their phone and scan QR codes and transfer the value that was in a specific wallet that was connected to this card or this note and be able to move that value around. On the right side, you see bit bills. These are from 2011. I don't know if these were ever actually issued or not. But as you can see, the denominations are from 1 to 20 Bitcoin. So you know what the value of Bitcoin was back then. And these are cards and you would access the wallet that was behind these cards by there would be two QR codes on it. One was a public and one was the private keys. The private key was behind a foil protection on the picture. You can see the circle of the globe on the five Bitcoin bill. You would scratch it off and there'd be the private key and the QR code under there. So you would scan both codes and then you would be able to access the wallet. On the left side is the generation of these kind of Bitcoin paper wallet things. And these were bit notes and these never took off these more complicated. They had special software and you would generate another private key with it. But you would print these at home, the bit note company plan to send sheets of notes to your home and you could print them out on your printer. And again, these never took off. As we move forward in time. On the left is Andre Lipkin. On the right, you see some notes from Bitcoin Suisse. In 2013, Bitcoin Suisse put out its first Bitcoin crypto bank notes. And again, if you look at the image on the right, you'll see a QR code with the public key. In the middle, it says private key, you would remove that piece of paper. And under that would be a numeric code that you would be able to access the key. In 2019, Bitcoin Suisse put out a new series of these notes and they look a lot like regular bank notes. They're denominated Bitcoin, Ethereum and other cryptocurrencies. But they have security features just like traditional bank notes do with optical variant ink, ultraviolet and security. And the whole bet Andre in 2017 put forward the of a crypto bank note. And he used the one who came up with that term. Andre is a former head of the state printing house in Belarus. He was there for 25 years. And he came up with notes that were basically press ready given current technology and also the blockchain ideas behind it and how to interact between a note and the blockchain. And he's very big on using traditional bank notes and traditional bank note security features. Because if you're going to have these notes moving hand to hand, they have to have all the security that bank notes have right now. Because you cannot depend on some kind of electronic interface to make sure that the note you have is real and then it has about a minute. So what are the case reasons that we should have these hybrid bank notes? Well, some of it we've already looked at, you know, these things have been under development for 10 or 11 years now and people are still going at it. So there must be something going on that people think we need these things. And as we saw in 2010, it also smart bank notes started with the idea of financial inclusion of being able to extend digital money to people with spotty internet or no internet or spotty electricity. And one of the things that is still holds today is it's great to have all these cryptocurrencies and all these platforms that run on your phone. But what if you're one of those people who doesn't have internet access? What if you're one of these people who doesn't have reliable electricity? There are many places in the world and including in the United States where internet access is a real problem. And so it's great to have all these cryptocurrencies. But if you have no internet, they're really useless. So you need another platform, cash, which will operate anywhere at any time. And the same thing in a disaster setting. Again, internet and electricity is a problem. You'll need some kind of payment technology that will operate outside those parameters. And there are some CVDCs that are being designed to work under these conditions. As I mentioned before, the cash industry, the cash industry is pretty massive. There are various printing houses, there are companies that handle cash, move cash around, cycle cash. If you decide tomorrow you just want to go to a CVDC and, you know, we're going to just dump cash. This is a massive pushback that will occur from this industry in many places. Popular payment practices. There are people who don't like cash. They don't want to deal with their phone. They don't want to figure out how this thing works. They don't like the idea of a digital currency. They want their cash. And this is a strong point in many places of Europe. The Germans love the cash as do the Swiss, and they want to hold on to it. And as we've seen in the past year or so, there's been an increase in cash usage. A lot of this may be just for store of value purposes and not for use in retail payments. But again, people like to have this physical instrument that they can shove in a drawer or just hold on to and say, I have this value. It's not in the ether. It's not an electronic thing. I have this physical object. Digital money adoption. With a hybrid bank note, you get people who are cash centered to get used to the idea of using digital. And after a while, once they start using these hybrid bank notes and say, oh, I can connect to a network and move this money around. The idea of having digital currency or cryptocurrency doesn't seem all that scary anymore. And it can be a way to make that transition. Central bank policy implementation, like I talked about before. If a central bank wants to break through the zero lower bound, it has to have some way of making cash go negative. And with a hybrid bank note, you can do that. There are various ways that you can engineer a bank note when it connects to a network to go negative or there's various ways to make this smart money work. Enhanced bank note security. Again, back from 1996, the idea was put a chip in a note and you can make it more secure. And this still applies to today. Plus, there are ideas out there that you could make a note that is stolen, basically become worthless. So there are ways basically to turn off the money. So it's another layer of security anonymity. And again, this is a big point. If you are using a hybrid bank note just as a traditional bank note, you're passing it hand from hand and there is no record of the transactions. The problem happens when you connect that note to a network to move value around, then it is no longer purely anonymous. And here you have to deal with what's going on on the back end of the ledger. And of course, there are people studying how to make online transactions basically anonymous or mostly anonymous. Things like using a Zcash model, blind signatures, things like that. Carbon reduction. This applies really to Bitcoin or other cryptos that are using proof of work. Let's say you create a Bitcoin hybrid bank note. You're going to lock away all that Bitcoin to the value of those notes. And so basically Bitcoin can be used offline in a traditional bank note sense. And you're doing all these Bitcoin transactions, but they never have to interact with the blockchain until you do that connection. Until you take your smart bank note and put it up against your phone, then it interacts with the blockchain and you have to do the whole proof of work. So a Bitcoin bank note would lock up a lot of Bitcoin and hopefully stabilize the value a bit more, maybe even raise the value. And at the same time, you're not making all this electricity usage to go on. OK, I'm going to try and speed up a little. So how would these things actually work, say today or tomorrow? Well, let's do an example of a smart bank note. And here I'm using, of course, the US 10. So this note, we'll call this the hybrid 10. The hybrid 10 is going to need some way to show a user that it has a value or it doesn't. Remember, these notes have chips in them and can be active or deactivated. Value or no value. For this 10, if it has value, the symbol of liberty icon here, which is the torch from the Statue of Liberty. If it has value, this will be bright red and raised above the surface of the note. When the value is transferred out of the note, this icon will disappear and you won't be able to feel it or see it. And this allows anybody to see if this note has value or not. Or if you're visually impaired, you'll still be able to tell. So let's say you have this 10 and you want to send the value of this $10 across a network to your relative overseas. So you take your note, you put it against your phone or other apparatus that will read it. It'll transfer the $10 out, zero out this note, make the icon go away, and you transfer the money. Now, what do you do with this note that has no value? Mail, you could turn it into the bank or maybe some kind of retailer and maybe get a deposit on it of some sort. And they would recharge it and recirculate it. Or you could just hold on to it and transfer the money, transfer $10 back onto it by yourself and you have a new $10 bill. If you're going to crypto bank notes, there's two forms that Andre has come up with. One is a crypto note and one is a crypto bill. And I'll point out the differences pretty quickly. Basically a crypto note has both the public and private key on it. If you look at his original design on the left, the QR code is there with the public key and on the lower right hand corner of the hundred note is where the foil cover would be. You would have to remove that foil cover and the private key would be under there. And like I said before, you would take your phone, read both of the QR codes and be able to access the wallet behind this note and transfer that value. The problem with a crypto note is once you remove that foil, this note is basically burned and you can reuse it. And that could be a problem in some instances. With a crypto bill, you only have a public key on the note. So again, in his original design on the 10, if you want to transfer value, you would have to take the note to the issuer. Let's say you want to transfer this 10. You'll take it to a bank, a kiosk, or some other retailer. And they would read the public key and then behind the scenes, the private key could be accessed. And the value would be moved by the issuer from one place to another. And this would work basically as silver certificates and gold certificates worked in the US in the past. And you could reissue this note until it wore out. And this is very basic banknote technology and this could be run on a press tomorrow. And all right, check my time. And so I laid out kind of the idea and the case for hybrid banknotes. You can use miscache, but you can go digital when you want. It should it all cover a lot of bases, solve a lot of problems that are kind of creeping up with this transition to a more digital platform. So I see it basically as a transitional device. And eventually sometime in the future 30, 40 years from now, we won't need banknotes of any kind anymore and will have switched over to a purely digital platform. So that is quickly my presentation. And be glad to take any questions you got. I'm looking at the chat now to see what's going on. Nothing much going on in chat except terminology issues. Yeah. So any questions, please come forward, put up your hand. And yeah, actually, there is a way to put up your hand. Yeah, it's the big. Yeah. All right. So basically, anybody can ask questions. Mark, of course, has got his hand up, which is a cue for me to stop talking and Mark to stop talking. Thank you very much. That was really a fascinating discussion. I was actually just thinking about, well, two things. I mean, why sort of one, would it be established as an each one as an NFT to make each one sort of a, you know, serially like a like how banknotes currently now have a serial number. So giving them a unique certificate, even though they're sort of fungible in the value. That was one consideration. And the second one I was curious about was thinking around just having you know, instead of having this sort of scratch off approach, what were the other options that you could actually keep them more in circulation? I was thinking just so you could validate them currently how now they scan a 50 euro bill or $50 bill, whatever. When they want to check it, that it could be sort of with the assumption that it's valid for those that don't have the digital access, but that it could be verified at any time. And maybe there's certain like checkpoints throughout a system that would that would allow it to pass through. So you wouldn't have this sort of disposable approach or sort of a one off or rechargeable, if you will think about that. Thank you very much over. Yeah. First off, I'm not sure because you're I'm more focused on the physical side on the banknotes side. And it's I need to look more into the NFT idea. It looks like both those ideas have been already presented. One, the NFT ideas already been presented as the one with the scratch off, right? I mean, it's basically once you do your transfer in a way, it's gone. The other idea where reuse is needed, you already presented it as a raised red liberty torch idea where you can recharge it. So both of those are already in circulation as ideas according to what I heard. But maybe I'm wrong. No, the two reusables are the smart bank that has a chip or the crypto bill, which just has a public key on it. One of the things I was thinking about is is serial numbers at least primarily in the US. And I think with the euro really don't serve any purpose except on production side. It's serial numbers are used basically to track production and to see what's been shipped out. It's not used as a security item of any sort. And the Fed certainly does not track individual notes. They really don't care about the serial number unless they see it twice. None of their equipment will read the serial number. To a certain extent, serial numbers are a legacy. And some banknotes don't see a reason at all for putting serial numbers on notes anymore other than that people expect them to be there. And they'll say this isn't a real banknote because it doesn't have a number on it, even though that number is almost meaningless to most of the central banks. You know, once in a while you can record them if you're paying or ransom or something like that. But you really don't see it anymore. Well, the serial number has been used in some heist movies as sort of a proof. Like, you know, if you're getting that's why people ask for small bills or whatever when they rob a bank or when they lift things. And when they counterfeit bills, they always go for the smaller denominations. Nobody counterfeits $100 bills. They probably counterfeit 20s, which are the most commonly used bill. So the serial number has sort of served as a plot point for many for many movies. I don't know how useful it is because you do circulate, you're supposed to circulate, you know, that this bunch of notes was stolen from the Fed. St. Louis Fed and, you know, you shouldn't be accepting them as or you should be calling the cops as soon as you see one of these notes. I mean, there is that. In fact, we are going through a whole exercise on token taxonomy framework where we are defining the characteristics of a token, especially a note. In fact, you can see that even in other fungible instruments like stock certificates, bonds, you know, there is, I mean, let me let me put it this way. The use of bearer bonds is frowned upon by the Fed for the very reason that banknotes are also under attack as being especially higher denomination ones as being a vehicle for crime. Which, of course, is also the tar, the brush that they are touring Bitcoin with for other reasons. Anyway, so it's very interesting this stuff. But let me, I mean, unless somebody else, oh, Adam, Adam Elevator has a question. Hi, one of the primary efficiencies of cash is face value, the ability to instantaneously transact with efficiency. If we're turning these notes into wallets, why not just use a wallet? Specifically, this is the scratch off consumability function that we were talking about introducing variability into the face value of the notes. This eliminates the ability for an instantaneous transaction and would therefore require each note to be checked, whether it's looking at the electronic ink or scanning it and checking online. I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. I'm asking that the very, the consumability or variability of cash would not be a combination of advantages in the future of payments, but rather damage and otherwise advanced piece of financial technology of a cash note. Should we not be separating cash into a face value of certain denominations and having digital wallets separate as digital wallets or physical wallets to supplement crypto hybrid banknotes? So you're basically saying, what the hell do you need these things for? They just introduce confusion. Why not just use one thing for what? Like, you know, cash for cash and crypto wallets for the other reason? Is that what you're saying? Yes, but not reducing the crypto banknotes idea. You know, we can have hybrid crypto banknotes, but of strict denominations and specifically debating the variability of the value of those notes. You described it as a scratch off or consumability. Well, there's two types, right, which Franklin was talking about. One is the scratch off, in which case the note is worthless once you've done it and you have to take it back to the to the issuer. The other is where, you know, the note has got some kind of a raised imprint, but presumably it can only be loaded back with the same face value. Otherwise, the face value and what is inside the note will be different. So I think what you're, I mean, according to what I understand, anyway, Franklin, you can answer the question. Yeah, Ignacio Maas had originally an idea that you could have a variable value on the note. You could charge it with whatever you wanted. And he kind of moved away from that idea after a while because it creates a real problem with how people traditionally use cash as a way to budget. Like I have so many fives, so many tens. There's another problem with any central bank is going to be very worried about the distribution of denominations in an economy. And if you start sending out notes that are basically can be assigned any value. You could send out, say, a skid of notes out to some community or whatever, and they all become hundreds. Somebody gets a hold of them makes them all hundreds. And there are no ones, twos, fives or tens for that economy to function. So one reason why there is a printed denomination and a fixed denomination is that a central bank can have this distribution of different denominations in the economy. So there's two sides to it, the consumer side and the planning side, you need to have these fixed values. And that's why, personally, I moved away from the ideas that consult a period came up with with a variable value or basically it became became a fancy debit card. So those were the reasons I moved to a fixed denomination and I think that works best. But wasn't the problem solved with the ink that changes the face value, like, for example, like 10 maybe printed, maybe printed in this ink. And then when you change it to five, it would show five rather than 10. Again, you run into the problem of the distribution of the denominations. A central bank would not want somebody to have that ability. I get that. But say if you're somebody's issuing a Bitcoin bank note, they may say, you know, that's perfectly fine. Make it whatever value you want, because except you can't spend it. Unless you take it to an exchange anyway. But a private firm would not be as concerned about the distribution of denominations throughout an economy of their specific bank note. But certainly, you know, you could a stable coin could be attached to these or, you know, Bitcoin, Ethereum, whatever you wanted. OK, yeah, I mostly see it as something that will link more or be most useful for a CBDC. But the central bank, they'll want some kind of physical manifestation of their CBDC. And this this idea makes more sense. But let me step back from this a little bit and say, we don't need these. Why? I'll give you several reasons. One, one bank notes are bank notes, let them function the way they are. I mean, so they will remain no matter what CBDC or other digital instrument you come up with. So that will satisfy the cash hungry hordes. OK, that's one. Second, there is, you know, with all this technology, there would be confusion between this between a the face value and what is actually in the note, whether the note is valid or not with the raised you know, so depending on people who are using it, they may say, oh, I don't, you know, I'm confused. I thought this had value when I accepted it, but it turns out to be a dud. So so that way, you know, and also some of the problems that Adam and others brought up. So why not have something else like for example, Tangem has been presented on this on this forum. They talked about the smart cards that can function in a disconnected way. Unfortunately, you cannot check or even see what is in there unless you have electricity of some, I mean, either to read the RFID or anything like that. So that seems to be one of the biggest problems. But is the problem with, let's say, a feature phone, which is, you know, used heavily in Africa for MPSA, for example, and the phones are much more ubiquitous than people seem to suggest, meaning even the, you know, very poor people seem to have feature phones, which need not necessarily have, you know, be connected to the internet or whatever, but it does provide a means of transferring peer to peer money, peer to peer. So so there are other alternatives. And I mean, certainly, yeah, there are alternatives. And I would not argue we should just do hybrid banknotes and, you know, forget everything else. Like this, I see hybrid banknotes as part of the mix as this transition occurs. You'll be, say, you'll be having hybrid banknotes. You're going to have your phone as the transition occurs. There will be places which will only accept cash. We have to know I and a lot of us have to remember there are places in the world that do not want to deal with digital payments. If you go, you know, to the middle of the United States, you're going to run into that. You know, they may not have all that great cell phone access. They're going to want to deal with cash and, you know, not these other things. Is there a demographic divide there? It's a demographic divide. It's a generational divide. I'm trying to think how I would convince my mother to, you know, okay, you know, give up your cash and start using your phone from here on out. She'll look at me like I'm insane. You know, what am I going to do with this? How do you handle it? How what's a QR code? You know, none of this makes any sense to me. Well, while my daughter would say, why do I want to carry any cash around? I have my phone, you know, cash is an old people's thing. You know, I don't deal with that. But since your mother and your daughter exist in the same world, they have the choice to have cash as well as a phone. So problem solved, I guess. And as far as you are concerned, you are somewhere in middle. You carry cash sometimes and you carry the phone other times. Anyway, as far as capital markets go, I was wondering, you know, there's only two more minutes. What, you know, if any, we didn't go into those interesting questions about the money supply, about whether this will make any kind of a trading easier. Or I mean, I'm talking about digital assets, not. Again, I can, you can see one thing about hybrid bank notes, as you pointed out is it's going to take a lot of public education if you roll these things out for people to know, okay, you have to look, say on this 10, you have to look for this icon and make sure you can see it. And it's raised above the surface of the note to say it's, it's a good note. And you have to, you know, educate people and, okay, what can I do with this new note? And, you know, say the Fed would create apps and, you know, here's your new 10. Take it to your phone and see what you can do with your new 10. It's going to be a massive public education thing that would have to be rolled out. And anyway, it's also part of a way to transition people who are used to cash to start thinking about, hey, there's this, we'll call it a CBDC. There's this digital dollar now, and I can do all this stuff with it. And I can move it back and forth with my regular dollar. Again, this hyperbank notes are a transitional device. They're not, they're not going to solve payment problems for the foreseeing future. It's, it'll help the movement from one platform or from one, from a 19th century technology to a 21st century technology. And I guess I'll conclude there, if for us. Yeah, yes, beautiful. Thank you so much, you know, for showing up and talking about this very sort of, it's an edge idea, especially in terms of CBDC. I'm not saying it's an edge idea in terms of, there are no edge ideas in Bitcoin, other places. So that's, that's that. The other, you know, another thing that you talked about where it's going to be a hybrid, I mean, a transition technology, we might be, we might end up with cash and hybrid bank notes for the foreseeable future. This is what happens to all technology, you know, it kind of survives Anyway, we are out of time. I'm going to close the end the recording, right. And I thank you again. Hopefully you've been at least amused by this whole episode.