 Welcome to the fourth Glott Political Theatre as a Civil Right episode, a fortnightly online platform presenting political theatre from around the world, hosted by HAL Round Theatre Commons. My name is Sinziana Kozhokorescu. I am courtesy director and co-founder of Besna Theatre, a British-Romanian political theatre collective devoted to challenging institutionalized and normalized violences in our society through theatre. Tonight we are going to talk about political, satirical and community theatre in the Middle East with Dina Musawi, who is a British-Iraqi actor, director and theatre producer. Her career spans theatre, television and film, and Lara Sawala, a Jordanian British actor based in London whose work includes film, theatre and TV in both the Middle East and the UK. And Nabil Sawala, the well-known Jordanian actor and political satirist. The conversation will begin around Nabil and his theatre show Peace O Peace, Salam Ya Salam, which was produced in Jordan and toured to Palestine and Israel. We now have a pre-recorded message from Nabil which offers little context. Political theatre in the Middle East, the Middle East has been a political arena from the beginning of time. We have come here across the crossroad of the worlds. So we have never been without occupation and the big powers find it a very nice arena for political games and for testing their latest weapons as well. So politics are in our blood. Actually, I was born at the beginning of the Second World War and my name was Harb War. Then my mother changed it later. So and I was singing against the occupation of Palestine at the age of five in Madaba, which is not Palestine, my hometown. So and then you get up, you know, I mean I remember at school when a teacher would say next Wednesday there'll be an exam. We'd say ha ha ha maybe if there is no coup d'etat or revolution or an occupation. So the Middle East really is and because of all the religious conflicts, a lot of history here and some of it is bitter, not nice and the West knows that very well and knows how to ignite it whenever they want to for their own interest. So how do we survive in the Middle East against this? We survive with humor. I did theater for nearly 20 years with very small audiences. It's not part of our world, the normal theater in Ebsen and Oscar Wilde and all that. But when we did political theater and we put the leaders of the world on stage and satirized them, it was like putting ice on hot hearts. People were so happy to see that happening because of all the pressures they have against these nasty politicians who in the Middle East they play with our bread. They play with all our lives. They affect all our lives. So when we started theater, political theater, we had in the audience kings, prime ministers, ministers, university professors, village women, 60-year-old kids because they all know politics because politics is very much part of our life. So when we laughed at it, it was the the greatest step in our world in the Middle East. And that's why how our theater was was born. And then we've laughed at peace or peace. And I remember they asked me in the Newsweek, why are you doing this play? I said because it's a business. We work wars and then we make peace. It's a good business. So we have to laugh at it. Otherwise, our life becomes a tragedy. And that's how our political theater was born and was very successful. And it was a great human step to bring people together. But the business of war, there are many people make good money out of it, individuals and countries that they don't want total peace. It's bad for business. Thank you so much for sending that video. That's a very beautiful way of putting it, that laughter is like cold ice on hot hearts. I wanted to ask you, Nabil, has politics always been a part of your work? Have you always made political theater or political art? Nabil, you're muted. We can't hear you. If you could unmute yourself. There is a button. Just click the microphone where it says mute, the bottom left. Okay. Excellent. Yes. I know I'm deaf, but mute, that's a new word. As politics is very much part of our life from the day we were kids, especially I was born in the beginning of the Second World War. My name was war. That was your actual name? At the beginning, yeah, that was my name. My mother thought better than that. No, no, it was called hard war. And then they changed it later on. So politics was always part of our life, as kids we were singing what we were doing. In my theater work, no, I started, I liked very much social satire, like satire and comedy itself, especially the human situation, the marriage situations. I did a lot of these, but when I did my first television series in the 70s, I mixed politics with the social satire. Corruption, the employees which I was doing, I didn't have much to do with the loose and the politics in life. So then we were not allowed, let's say, not allowed to do politics, comedy, politicians and politics. So we went into secret, always hiding the names, always its meaning that until after the Gulf War, Jordan, as you know, was boycotted everybody in the world. So the censor in the government at that time, I used to have censor. I was not worried about what I say, if I annoy America or annoy Saudi Arabia or annoy these people, we were free. We couldn't care for anybody, as nobody cared for us. So this is when we started our political theater, especially when George Bush said, senior said, we're going to have a new world order. We thought, my God, every time the West wants to do a new world order, they start it in the Middle East, practice on us. So we did first play, hello, new world order. Of course, we had to trick our government. The censor told us what's it about, told him it's about farming and health, general health, and when we went to the stage, it was politics. Now, the strange thing is that top politicians in the head of intelligence were very interested to see us, because I think after the first shot to the head of intelligence, we said, shall we go back with you to the prison? He said, no, it's really democracy. Go on, say what you want. I think where the success was, we formed as artists in the Middle East, usually people in the field of art and people in the field of culture, either with the big boss and being very hypocritical to him or against. We took our part as artists. We reflected the image of the situation, the political situation to an artist without any agendas. This is what made King Hussein come and see all our plays, top officials, ministers, people from abroad, all used to come and see our plays, because we pushed the red lines, we never offended or broke the red lines. Our society is a very observative society. Even if he doesn't like the king, he doesn't like to say bad things about the king. So when we put politicians in the stage, we put them in their political thing. We did not satirize their bodies, we imitated their bodies. We did not like the catches that you have shown. You're muted again. We can't hear you. So if you could press the same button, then we'll be able to hear you. Well, I don't know. Here I am. What's the matter with you? Welcome back. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, that will answer you. And we started political theater. We used to do theater and comedy in a few days. It's not a traditional theater when we did political theater. We had seven years like this on our state, full houses. And it used to be our minister, the king, the ministers, head of political parties, and some kids, those kids, very politically aware in the Arab world, because it plays with our life politics, you know. We can't do anything to America, what America is doing for us everything every day. So kids, old ladies would come to the theater and talk because we were all politically cultured. And you mentioned that you didn't have any kind of censorship? I actually wanted to ask you about that. That was a trick. In the Arab world, there is something stupid the government puts in a minister of culture or the arts, the theater, supervises every script. I remember sending one of my scripts to the Gulf. I was going to go perform there. The censor there cut out more than half of it. That's something stupid, you know, basically. Of course, when I went there, I performed it as it is. Nothing happened. So censor is an old Arab world. Now, when we did our play, the first play we did New World Order. And the king, the head of intelligence and the government came and saw it. We had all the leaders on the stage, the Arab leaders, the foreign leaders on stage, apart from the king himself, had him in voice only. Because we're still afraid of censorship. The censorship, not anything. The head of the government is attending my play. What are you going to do, censor? What are you going to cut out of it? So one time, the secretary of the ministry of culture said, why don't you show us your scripts anymore? He said, don't worry about it. They're all about farming. There's nothing to worry about. So we actually, a fantastic step in the Arab world, is that all our plays were written and performed. And our responsibility, which where it should be, was with the audience. The audience doesn't like it. They can throw tomatoes at us. They didn't. And speaking of audiences, you said that audiences in the Middle East or in Jordan where you first performed were very politicized. But you also toured to the US and to the UK. Did you feel a difference with the audiences? Were they less politicized? No, because the audiences we performed there are an extension of the audiences in Jordan, which is a mixture mainly of Jordanians and Palestinians and the other Arabs. I mean, we performed in Detroit, in Chicago, the Arabs there. And then there were some Iraqis there at the time of when Saddam was ruling. Soon as we, the president of Saddam came on the stage, on the stage, walked out. We asked him later, he said, well, he said, we're afraid. If he knew we saw a play with him in it, he'd execute us. That's the fear the Arab world from politics. We were invited by Saddam to perform. We were invited by Gaddafi to perform. The audiences in America and in England are actually an extension of our audiences here. We heard all about our plays and they were dying to see how this phenomena happened were Arab actors putting their leaders on stage, criticizing them in a way their politics and even their own king. So we were a phenomenon. The Arab world and the Arab world echoed all over the world. We got invitations from Australia, we got invitations from everywhere. We toured the United States and we did a performance in England. And then a couple of performances in England. So I did something. Okay, thank you. Thank you so much. Now I'll move to Lara. Lara, you are Nabil's daughter and you're also an actress. So I wanted to ask you how what was it like for you to grow up in this environment of political theater and did it change the way that you developed as an actor? Well, it was fabulous firstly because as a five-year-old I got to go to the theater all the time. I was like the number one fan wanting to basically be backstage constantly. And you know, having a dad who was an, I mean as a kid all you want to do is kind of copy your parents. So I definitely had a great upbringing around theaters and around sort of, you know, creatives and makers really. Every birthday party, dad and his theater group would dress up as some characters and play with us kids. Do you remember it? One of them was called Abou Josaro, which is a famous character that in the 70s I think dad played on TV but they'd all come dressed as carrots for my birthday party. So it's made me who I am today. I wouldn't be an actor if my father wasn't one. And how it's formed me, I suppose the work we've done together over as I've grown up has definitely formed who I am today and how I perform. But having someone who's in the arts at a young age definitely helped. And Dina, how did you do? By the way, can I say something? Yeah, of course, of course. Lara, by the end we were performing solos. She and I, whole play I would write it for me and her. And then as a comedian, by the end people were saying we'd like you to perform but only if your daughter's with you. Well, I was very proud of that. That's a very good sign. Dina, can I ask you how did you get involved in theater? How did you become a political, social, community theater maker? Well, I first got involved in theater when I was about eight. It was when I first moved to England and I went to see a local sort of performing art school doing a presentation evening and I really liked what they did. And I said to my mum, can I do that? I want to go, I want to do that because we didn't really have anything like that in Baghdad. And so that's how I got involved in the arts and performing. And then I worked as an actor throughout my teens and into my adult years. And then I think it was the war in Syria that made me want to act and do something because I just couldn't bear what was happening in the Middle East in so many different countries. And that's when I went to Lebanon to Beirut and I started working with Syrian women in theater. And that's how it started really. And then it just kind of grew from there. And how did you meet the Sawalha family? Well, we were all in a play together called Rest Upon the Wind, which was about Khalil Gibran. And yeah, we toured around the Middle East and had the best time. It was brilliant. And you mentioned the work with the women. And that was the project called Terrestrial Journeys. Yeah, that was one of the projects. There were two. I worked on a project of Antigone, which was an Arab adaptation of the Greek tragedy. And then the following year, I produced and directed my own projects called Terrestrial Journeys. Yeah. And that was with the same group of women? Not all the same. It was a much smaller group, but some of them were the same and some were new. Yeah. Yeah. And they were all non-actors? Yeah, they were all kind of, they'd never had, they had zero experience in theater and performing in the arts. They all lived in refugee camps in Beirut. And they were all really, really keen and eager to be involved and absolutely loved it. Yeah. I read your blog about Terrestrial Journeys. I actually read all of it. It was fascinating. It was so wonderful to read about them and like about how passionate they were and how seriously they took it. Yeah. And I wanted to ask you what it was like working with non-actors versus with actors in the Middle East? I mean, with non-actors, especially the women that I was with who had no experience, really going to start from the beginning. So we did a lot of, we would do in the morning, more sort of training workshops where we would talk about posture and voice and projection and how improvising and playing and that kind of thing. And so you've got to like go back to the basics, you know, and elicit that from them. And a lot of them are creative and they have that in them. They've just never had the opportunity to exercise it or to bring it out themselves. And so it's about how you get it out of them. So yeah. I love it. I love it. Whereas working with actors, obviously they already know that. So, you know, you just dive straight into the work. I remember reading one part where you asked them to create like images or tabloids. And I think you mentioned that they came up with something that was quite very literal, like a boat on the Mediterranean and stuff. And you're trying to kind of ease some more metaphorical content out. Can you tell us a bit about how that worked? Oh, I can't remember. I read about it recently. I definitely remember then creating an image of a boat and all sitting on a boat. And I sort of thought that's a bit, it's a bit too obvious and literal. And I think I just try to explain to them to just think outside the box and try different images that might make them feel the same, but not an actual boat. And use like sticks or props or whatever we had to sort of create a different image. So we would use like plastic water bottles or booze sticks or pieces of fabric, that kind of thing. Yeah. And just by that image that you mentioned in your blog, it seems that there was quite a lot of political and social content that they chose to deal with in that show. How important was it for the women to talk about political issues? Well, it actually, a lot of them were afraid to talk about political issues. And when I first started the project, a lot of them, they were sort of very cautious and a bit nervous about joining in, even though they really wanted to. And some of them, their husbands wouldn't let them. So I had to go to some of their houses in the camps and speak to their husbands and just explain what the project was and reassure them that it was nothing to do with politics. And my aim is never to talk about politics in a show or to make it a political piece of theatre, but by the nature of where they're from and what's happening in their country and what's happening right now, it's sort of, and the process of doing it, it sort of is political, if that makes sense. But it's never political. But one thing I wanted to make sure is that the pieces, it's a devised piece so that they have the right to sort of talk about what they want to talk about. And it just happened to be that because they were refugees, a lot of them talked about their journey or, you know, what it was like for them living in Beirut and that kind of thing. Yeah. So I guess it wasn't important to them, but it naturally sort of came out of them. No, that makes sense. That makes sense a lot. And I think you are right that the process is definitely political. I think the way that a company or a maker relates to the people that they're working with, especially when making community theatre, that in itself is a political act, the amount of respect and authenticity and power that you give to your participants to choose what they talk about is in itself a political act. Yeah. And the fact that you are performing downtown Beirut where you've got a wide range of audience coming from rich Lebanese to expat British to some refugees from the camps and they're all together and they're watching, you know, so that act as well is political. So. Yeah, absolutely. Sorry to quote your blog so much. I know it was a long time ago. But I remember that you just described the audience that the women's family members who were also refugees would sit side by side with middle class Lebanese families and even bringing those two together again kind of creates that solidarity that he gets people talking about each other. Yeah. Yeah. Now to have a question for both you and Laura actually. So just answer whenever you want. Because you've made political theatre or community theatre in both the UK and in the Middle East, how would you say that what the differences are between the way it shapes what it looks like in if it's different in the two countries? Well, I mean, for me, the number one difference is the censorship from working as an actress in the Middle East. When Laura and I were in the play together, we always had to have sensors come and watch the dress rehearsal and they would always tell Laura, you're not allowed to do the kissing scene. Do you remember Laura? Kissing, no, no, taking off your dress, no, nothing. So that is more, you know, you don't have that in England in Europe. So that's a big difference and a challenge, I guess. Yeah. I don't know what else Laura. No, I'd probably say the same. I mean, you know, as Dad was saying, it varies where you are. It can be dangerous doing political theatre. It depends on the circumstance. It depends on what you're trying to say. I think our aim is the same whether it's in the West or the East. It's just that in the West, it's you're slightly freer in some aspects. Yeah. And regarding the process of making it, would you say that there are differences? For me, there wasn't much difference apart from the fact that they had no experience of theatre and had never seen theatre before. So I had to start from scratch. But other than that, not really, no. We did the same exercises that we would do in London, the same games. We started every day by doing yoga, by doing stretches and breathing. And yeah, I just did it the same as I would in the UK. Yeah, no, pretty much the same. I mean, before Dad and I and the group would go on stage, for example, we do laughter yoga. And shake it all out and get the nerves out. And you know, you still have the same process of rehearsal every day, script, cuts, not cuts, rehearsals, singing. So no, I wouldn't really, there wasn't much difference. I'm curious. When you were doing your work, Nabil, did you have a repertoire system or was it more of a British and American system where you run for a specific amount of time every night? Go off mute, Papa. Yeah, you're still muted. Sorry, I didn't get that. A repertoire or what? The American system? Yeah, yeah, exactly. I don't know the difference, I don't know the difference really. I know what I'm doing in my play. I don't have names for what I do. We have a lot of that in the Middle East. Actors would say, is this Brechtian or is this Stanislavski or is this, I say no, it's a play. Get over with. Get over with. No, I mean, we would have three, four plays. We had them. We had, for example, before Peace, we had Haru Arab Summits. We had, was it human, Arab human rights? For example, when we went and performed to Palestinians in occupied Palestine, we made a mix of these plays together. As our work, we will, my friend and I, we will write the script. He will write something. I will write something. Then I work on it and work on it. We worked on it as a theater. We matured it. In comedy, it's always a risk. The first night, nobody's going to laugh. You might laugh at rehearsals. You'll laugh, oh, fantastic, all this. And then the audience comes and what happened. And there were many a night that we spent the night of the first night after the play, until the morning until we fixed the play. We don't know what the audience is going to laugh about. The political comedy theater is a work in process all the time. All the time. Especially me, every day. First exchange, every day, as you know. And especially in the Middle East, change every half day. You have to keep up with it and to keep up with the actors. Also, we were first the first. We used to perform, as I told you, before days a week. And then we performed the first play, New World Order, for two years in Jordan. This is miraculous. I have, I have, I was trained in England theater or theater-wise at Lambda. So actors tend to go lazy. I've said that word about 100 times. Isn't that enough? I mean, 700 times, we used to say that. So I was always there, rehearsed them every day, every other day, nearly before the play, remind them. Now and again, I would change a little bit in the sentence when you go, oh, yeah, no, no, no, no. I come back and that creates life in the theater. It's very important, you know. You have to keep up with the, with the, with politics. I mean, we have people coming to see New World Order from Syria, Saudi Arabia and other places, no less than 12 times for the same play. But every time there'll be something new. They love that. Can I just say something on that with the regards to what he used to do to us? Bava, five minutes before going on stage, he would give me a new scene. And he'd be like, oh, here, sorry, I've changed this part. Can you please read that part? And I'm there going, no, I can't. So yeah, you definitely kept it alive. Good training. Good training, Laura. Absolutely. If you play a play for two years, you have to bring some new elements into it. Absolutely. Well, nothing that kills life, life and art like apathy. No. True. Absolutely. To be predictable. And that moves us on very nicely to the clips that we have presented from Salam Yassalam to show. But before that, Nabil, do you want to give a very short out view of the context, the political context, so that our audiences can make the most of the scenes? Now, let me remember. One is with Burqiba, President Burqiba of Tunis, isn't it? Yes, the one we're going to talk about. Yeah, that one with Sadat, and then there's the other one with the piece. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is when Sadat decided to go to Jerusalem and give a speech. Who was it? Give a speech. And Burqiba was a man, a very sensible politician, and he didn't like extremes. He was head of Tunis, and he was the one who moved Tunis into a very modern democratic state. You know, he was a very respected leader. And Sadat decided to go without consulting with any Arab leader, or in Jerusalem, because he thought it's time to break the mold of everybody. And as you know, because of that, he made with his life, he was shocked. So this is an argument between them, Burqiba trying to convince him not to go. Get easy, wait a little bit, we'll go together. And then, of course, Sadat, when you tell him, but the Arab leaders are going to be angry, he kind of made a sign finger to that. So I don't care for that, please, useless bunch, no good, no good. And so this was a lovely scene. I loved to play Burqiba because he was such a nice, nice man, looking to a slightly loud Egyptian politician. You know, the clever man, you could see better Sadat, you see reality better. And that's the argument between them. Don't go, wait a minute, be careful, the Arab leaders know this and say, no, no, not the Arab leaders. I don't know to talk to them. There's the kind of difference between the two personalities that by the end, Burqiba failed and he went to Jerusalem, came back and got shot. And that's the scene. And with that, let's watch the scene. Thank you. I am the one who used to be the father of the United States. The father of the United States has been able to return to the mass. I'm not afraid of you, Burqiba, I'm afraid of you, the Arabs will kill you. The Arabs? Who are the Arabs? I'm afraid of who, I mean, in the land, there are 3 million people. They won't kill me. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with that? What's wrong? What's wrong with that? We're coming. We're coming. We're coming. We're coming. Where's the last one? I've been in the Arab world for two years now. Yes, but the Arab people are very sensitive to these days. They love the believers, but they don't like them. That's why I'm the one who's going to leave the country. I'm not going to leave you alone, you're going to leave the Iraqi people, the Syrian people and the Orthodox people. I swear I might be going to the court to ask God for forgiveness. Do the Orthodox people leave or the Syrians leave? Are you going to scare me with the Iraqi people, the Syrian people and the Orthodox people? No, I'm not going to leave you alone. I'm not going to leave you alone. Are you going to leave me alone or are you going to leave me alone? No, no, I'm not going to leave you alone. Why? I'm not going to leave you alone. But tell me, Anwar. Tell me, Anwar, when did you think you were going to leave Jerusalem? A week ago, I was sitting with my friend Henry Kissinger. Do you remember, Anwar, that the Arabs and the Jews were saying, I don't know exactly, I don't know. I don't know exactly, I don't know. Do you remember the problem between the Arabs and the Jews? The people's prison. I told him, I'm going to go to the Dixels before the prison. I told him, Anwar, I'm afraid of being in a prison like the Dixels, and that I will be locked in jail. Why? I visited Jordan before 1967, I visited Jordan and I went to the Palestinian camps. And I told them, guys, you're right, I understand that you're Israeli. You live and do it in Palestine, and live and do it and do it. I remember the Japanese guys, and the Japanese guys said, I'm not going to leave you alone. No, I'm not going to leave you alone. The Palestinians are going to take me away from Egypt. Why did you listen to the Palestinians wearing pajamas? I told them, I told them, I'm going to leave you alone. I told them, I'm going to leave you alone. Don't take a bite of the food first, brother, then you'll be in a hurry. Do you remember the situation with my son? He said, are you going to leave me alone? This is a strange thing, Abu Ammar. I've been in the prison camps all the time. They said, move to Palestine, move to Palestine, move to Palestine. They started to move to Jordan, and I'm in Tunisia. It's a new idea, a new idea. It's a new idea. The Israeli idea is to give Abu Ammar a new idea. If Abu Ammar doesn't take a new idea, he'll be in a hurry. After 20 years, he'll be in a hurry. I swear to God, we have to solve the Palestinian issue. I swear to God, you have a big heart. No, I'm not afraid of Tunisia. I'm afraid of Tunisia. Tunisia is in Palestine. I'm afraid of Abu Ammar in the Arabian nationality. Don't be afraid, don't be afraid. America is all over the world. America is the great power. Those who are not afraid of America are not afraid of our God. America is the one who will make peace and let everything fall into place. I'm afraid of you because you're a man from a long time ago. Like what you said, where does it come from? Because it comes from a long time ago. But it's a difficult and dangerous situation. I thank you for taking me away from the game. I feel like I have to go to Jerusalem, God willing. Get up. They're coming back, God willing. They're coming back, God willing. I'm afraid of Jerusalem. I'm not afraid of it. I'm afraid of peace and the shell. The Jordanish War in Palestine that took place in the hands ofDr. Abdel Salam Al-Majali. I'm afraid of it, God willing. Mr. Rabin Eishhtani, the Israeli war that took place in the United States, anything you drink, you pay eight. Do you like the Jordanish War directly? I don't like it, I agree. But all of you hate it, God willing. Hater? Yes, and we are afraid of being released. Mr. Rubinstein? Yes, sir. Let's start the negotiations. Peace be upon you and God's mercy and blessings. Peace be upon you, Mr. Rubinstein. Let's start the negotiations. Mr. Rubinstein, please allow me and an expression of goodwill to give you this chance. Thank you, Mr. Rubinstein. I hope we can make it together. If you want to record the event for the goodwill, we can also prepare it. Why do you ask for it, Mr. Rubinstein? The US is not making it as we wish. No, no, no. No recording. You see, Mr. Rubinstein, no recording. Okay, one to three recording, America. Take it, Mr. Rubinstein. We have prepared a whole agenda about our usual and requested case, brother. What is your case? What is the case of Palestine? Palestine? Yes, this is the case. There is no such case. Go ahead, son. No, no, thank you. You always remind me of the past. After that, Mr. Rubinstein left you. Mr. Rubinstein, what is your case in London? I will explain it to the public first, and I will write a paper. We started with the most recent case. What is your case in the paper? I will write a letter to a group of documents, but no names, dates or documents. I will write it in the documents. I will write it in a year, two, three, four. God forbid. What is this in the middle, brother? I mean, the free of charge. As the Arabian example says, the meaning in the country of the people. What is Mr. Rubinstein's case? Brother, I will write a letter to my brother. I will write a letter to my mother. Why? Why does he take us to the meetings in Washington, Washington, but far away? Why does he take us to the meetings in the Berlin? What is this? What is this? You sent us here. If he makes meetings at the square, he should be at the empty house. We spend the time at the square. And we spend the time at the airport. What else? What else? I want to finish it. No, no, no, don't worry. You are under the control of Allah. You are under the control of Allah. What's the secret of your secret? We have joined the decisions of the Security Council. It was 42 years ago. It was 1,088 years. It was 48 years ago. It's 47 years now. And we decided to promote the people of Palestine. You want to speak about the word Maana? Of course, Maana. Maana of Palestine? No, no. There are no Maana in the world, no Maana in the Jewish population. I want to speak more than anyone else. Listen to me. You are not opening the Maana of this family. Because Maana belongs to the Palestinian people. I'm not talking about that. I'm not talking about that. I'm not talking about that. What's the matter? You are under the control of Allah. I want to speak more about the Maana of Palestine. All this is not important. I want to speak about this. More importantly, this issue. More importantly, this issue. I am. I'm sorry, Malcolm. The business, yes? Actually. Leave it to us. Leave it to us to see what the problem is. Mr Roggenstein. What's your problem? My problem, my boy? The thing about the flag? No, my boy, you, you see alright, the Perovitz issue has been in Israel for 26 years. The Ariel of Israel is 26 in Zighing. Now listen, my boy, I take you from the camps you were going to, from the anchorimmers that have arrived on you. The strike of the影片 that ever happened. See, my boy, because look at you. No, I refuse to go to this country, not to this country. You are right, my friend. You are a country of your own choice. We don't want to go back or to liberate it. Let's go to Jeddah and talk about our capital, Outs. No, Outs. We are not talking about the capital of the city. No, no, no. We are talking about our capital, Outs. We are talking about our capital. We are talking about our capital, not our capital, not our capital. You know what? We are coming, we are coming, we are coming from the back of the city. Where are we going? We are going to Narweed. Narweed? What is this? Outs? Why are we here? We are going to Fawadat. Fawadat? Yes, Fawadat. Fawadat is the first gas station in the city. Fawadat is the first gas station in the city. Which station is the first? The one in Israel and the one in Palestine. There is an Israeli-Palestinian country in Oslo. No one has a country in Washington. Yes, yes, yes. I swear I am laughing and laughing at you. I am not talking about the capital, I am talking about the capital. Rakhine. Are you from Bandal? I mean I was born in Bandal to play. Don't touch me. Get off the floor, let it go, my daughter. Don't walk on the floor. You are leaving the floor, huh? I am sorry Pasha, I am sorry. I will not tell you what happened. I can go back to Israel and bring back the stuff they gave us. Of course it is impossible, you have turned us into the capital. But what do you wish more than that? No, you didn't do anything about it. You were in charge of the corruption of the Corridor. That's not the problem, Pasha. The corruption of the Corridor. The Corridor is lost, and you're in charge of it, Pasha. When you lose me in the desert, Pasha, I'll kill you. You're not a soldier, you're a soldier. And your pressure is on me, Pasha. I say, Pasha, thank you for listening to me. If you don't listen to me, I'll kill you. I say, Pasha, thank you for listening to me. If you don't listen to me, I'll go back to Israel and do my business. I'll go back to the Arab world, because I've seen the Arab world and you're in charge of it a lot. Praise be to God, we're all in charge of it. If you don't listen to me, I'll kill you. I'll go back to Jordan, God willing. What do you want to do there, Pasha? I want to be the head of the Corridor. If you don't listen to me, I'll kill you. Why? Because you're going to die. God willing, we've done our job and helped our brothers in the occupation of Qiyano. We're going to go around the world here and around the Arab world. May God help you. This is Hamam, you're back. Can you tell us a little bit about the peace process in Washington? I love that scene. I used to love in Rubelstein, the negotiator. Because we actually, to write that scene, we asked the negotiators themselves. The guy who is the Jordanian negotiator, I'm Salam Ejali, who is Prime Minister. We talked with him and heard what he says. Then the Israeli's refused to talk with the Palestinians unless they are under the Jordanian umbrella. You saw it, the Jordanian umbrella. Then Rubelstein. They said the Jordanian delegation would go and talk to the Israelis. The Israelis will put certain conditions. The Jordanians will come back to them and say, we agree. The Israelis said, do you agree? Oh, we have to go back and look at it again. The art of dallying, the art of distracting, the art of this is an incredible art of Israel. This was negotiation in Washington. It was Prime Minister Abdesir Mejali, who was played by my friend. And the Palestinian who, you saw the kind of distraction. We're coming here to discuss Palestine. Big issue, big problem. The whole world has not been the same through the problems from Palestine. And yet Rubelstein is talking about the Jordanian pigeons coming to Israel, and mocking up their tourism with jinshit. Palestine is getting mad. I said, what's the matter with you? We're going to talk about Palestine. He said, oh, I don't know Palestine. This is something I found when I went, when we performed in Israel. I would tell them, you know, you cannot forget the Palestinian diaspora. And they say, oh, that's only Jewish diaspora. I said, no, we have it in Jordan. We have millions of Palestinians all over the world. And unless you remember that, there will never be peace. And after our visit with this, I discovered there will never be peace. Israel, because they live in another world, in a cuckoo world. Our part of the Middle East, it'd be very easy to mold in the Middle East and become part of it and have a good life with all of us, the Middle East. The Middle East is a nice place, nice country, nice weather, nice lovely history, nice everything. They just have, as one Israeli said, that the Israelis, they don't want peace because they worship the God of war. It's good business war, you know. And this is actually, so this was a negotiation. It shows how useless it was to negotiate peace with Israel. Because what they have in their mind, the Israelis, have nothing to do with the understanding of peace as giving human rights to the Palestinians or rights to the Palestinians living in peace with the other neighbors. They have a weird, different mindset. And we showed it in that sketch, how we're trying to get to the subject and how Rubenstein, oh, there's a pigeon, oh, Palestine, oh, where is that? You know, there's a lovely character, I met the guy as well. Nice character to play. You met him in real life. We're all so nice, we understand each other very well. And you met the character that you played and did he know that you play him? When we performed in occupied Palestine. I'm not supposed to say Israel. Did he see the play? Did he see himself on stage? Well, there was after a show, there was a lot of gathering and everything like this. And because there's another sketch which we do about Joshua the Jew, how he was supposed to be. But all he did was kill, kill, kill, kill everybody in Jericho. Everything, animals and goats. We're a big prophet and we worship this prophet. So we did a very satirical sketch about that. I don't know, I don't know if they showed it to you. But anyway, yeah, it was him and there was other people and they said, oh, you are a bit racist, huh? Because we satirized Samson and Delilah, we met Delilah, Palestinian and Samson was Jewish and you know, and every time he said, I killed a thousand people with my donkey's jaw. Stop exaggerating, you're ignoring our life with it. And he goes down to two by the end, you know, this kind of thing. So some of the Israelis came to us and said, ah, there were some racist comments. I said, well, you should know. So that's why he mentions Samson in the first sketch. He says, oh, you become like Samson. Yeah, yeah. We read some of the biblical stories. You know, like Joshua, he would say, you know, let's go and kill our neighbors. And his people say, but Moses said in the tomb, the commandments don't kill. No, that was the 11th commandment. It got dropped off when he was coming down the mountain. He slipped Moses and as I killed that. And these are beliefs that we, the Muslims here believe in them. The Christians call them the Prophet Joshua. He killed every Palestinian he met. So it's a bit satirical. Anyway, it was all in good spirit. You mentioned that. Because it's comedy. You see, comedy can say whatever you want. If you say it, well, you're laughter. All what we said. If we said it outside comedy, we'll get killed. I wanted to ask you about the reception of the show, because you played obviously in Jordan quite a bit, but you went to Palestinian communities within Occupied Palestine, but also to mainly Israeli communities. So how was the show received differently? Well, the Israelis did a trick. They came and filmed us in Amman, tending to be French television. Because, you know, the Israelis talk a lot like they're French. They interviewed us. They put it on Israeli television, which we would not have accepted if we knew they were Israelis. And what excited them was the fact that I was, we were doing their leaders on our stage, Rubenstein, what's his name? Rabin, the one he killed, the way they killed, and all these few. So they thought this kind of recognition of them. So they were very working hard on getting us to perform in Israel and Palestine and the villages. I wasn't excited because, you know, this peace process was a bit funny. And I'm Jordanian. I am an Arab. I belong to my Arab world. King Hussein himself used to call me, put it down again and say, what happened? Are you going? Because he wanted us as a comedy theater group to continue the process of the cultural side to be continuation of the process of peace. My friend who was originally a Palestinian was very excited to go. I was a little bit, I was a pain in the worst. I said, I have nothing to do with it, you know. It caused us trouble. So anyway, they kept after us and we, by the end we decided to go there. No problem. We will do one show in Tel Aviv in English and 14 shows in the Arab villages. The day before we started to travel, they shot Rabin. The whole mood was changed. Anyway, we waited 10 days and then we went there and we performed very successfully. Theater in Tel Aviv, it was incredibly big. It was full to the end, you know, ministers, prime ministers and all this. And so, and then we performed in 14 Arab villages. The sad thing is that Arab villages, they don't have a theater. They had to borrow a theater from the Israeli villages or settlements. So when we go there and see the head of the theater, the Israeli head of theater, I discovered some Israeli, they are very sad to say that they are biblical. They are biblical in their thinking. They are not with this world. They are not with the rest of the humans. They are not, they are disappointing. And even one of them said, you are going to make a comedy? I thought the Arabs don't laugh. This was a guy who doesn't know how to laugh himself. Anyway, when we performed to the Arabs, they saw us laughing at our politicians and their politicians and everybody laughing. They were really shocked. Some of them said, my God, I felt the laughter. It was very good, but in a way, the Israelis are self-defeating in their own way. They tried to use us for their own purpose. They did not think, like King Hassan, is that we are opening channels of communication. And if you open it through politics and comedy, it's a very important process because politicians can't sign anything. People don't believe them. But there is a cultural theater exchange to be tried. They used us badly for the media. All the time used us to prove Israel is over. I hated the trip there. My friend went back, I never went. They asked me, actually, one Israeli television said, please come and say whatever you want about Netanyahu. I said, whatever I come, you will change, you will twist my words. And why do I want to come and say I work on Netanyahu? I don't care about Netanyahu or Paris. From Jordan, I'm happy with my family here. That's very interesting that they kind of used this kind of cultural, peaceful exchange to their political interests. And in a way, kind of like greenwashing today, and a lot of arms companies speaking of arms war and stuff, you do that now, you know, they offer money for the arts or they have internships and stuff to kind of wash their image. You know, something strange. After we went, we decided to write television series on the borders of Jordan and Israel to set our eyes on both people and bring us together in comedy. So I wrote half an hour and sent it to them, in which I show clever people in Israel and stupid people in Israel, clever people, people, stupid people in Jordan. You know, you know how the mixture it is through comedy. It's called Borders. We sent it to them. They said, no, no, that's not what we think. And these are the liberal people, the writers and the what's it not. I sent it to them and they sent it back to me. My God, the racism was horrifying. They showed all the Arabs stupid and all the Jews clever. It's not going to be interesting even to see. It's going to be stupid. Because they, although the liberal ones, they don't like extremists and in Israel and things like this, their minds are all twisted to racist mood when it comes to the Arabs. It's very weird and very uncomfortable, very unhappy. Absolutely. I want to ask you, Nabil, and this is a question for everyone, so feel free to jump in. Do you think that in today's current political climate, and not just talking about Palestine and Israel, but do you think that a political empowerment through laughter is still possible? Political, sorry, again? Political empowerment through laughter. Just bringing back to what you said in your intro video of empowering people through laughing at these political figures. Is that still possible in today's climate? Look, the concept of people laughing as you see in America, you know, the political comedy is on the laughter itself. The form of making you bear dictator, live with his nonsense, live with his cruelty, live with his stupidity, which is happening in America. Committees are having great time in America, because Trump is a character, relevant to what? He has a character. Obama was no character. He killed the business. Comedy is always relevant to soften the atmosphere, bring people together, see the human side in us. The only thing now, because the West is playing up in our world here, because of Israel, they must destroy the whole of the world to let Israel live. Which is ridiculous. If we are able to destroy it, Israel will die naturally. It doesn't make any sense. So it must destroy the Arab world. They destroyed Iraq, they destroyed Syria, they destroyed Libya. They destroyed the nationalism in the Arab world. And then they created Daesh, ISIS, and all these extremists. Which now we see Turkey, the one who was adopting them. Because Turkey now is taking the same people. She put in Syria and Iraq to be ISIS. They are taking them to Libya. Now we know how the trick was. Of course, help them. So this, and the religious, the enemy of petitions and religion is comedy. ISIS, this kind of religion makes anything you say, oh, the prophet, oh, God, oh, that kind of thing. It's still there and will always be the concept of comedy as a human upgrade. Thank you. I wanted to move a little bit to working in the UK. And I wanted to ask both of you, Lara and Dina, so jump in whoever wants to answer first. What was it like for you as Middle Eastern actors working in the UK? And did you find any challenges? Yes, actually, I have. I'm talking like over 10 years ago now. But one of the things that spurred me to make my own work was that the challenge I kept finding is that there were no roles for Arab women. And at the time of the Iraq war, bearing in mind I'm Iraqi, there were a lot of films being made, you know, Hurt Locker, Green Zone, Devil's Double. There were all these films being made about my country. And every time there would be a casting call, my agent or I would submit our things and they didn't want to see me. And I could never understand. And then once I actually got an audition for the Green Zone, which had Matt Damon in it, and they said to me, I went to the audition, I read the script that they sent me and it was the part of a man because they didn't have any females for me to read. So I read the audition and he was like, yeah, that was really great. The only problem is there's no there isn't a role for you in the film. He said, but do you know any Iraqi male actors? And I was like, well, you know, no, I don't have family members, but they're not actors and he actually asked me in the audition if I knew any Iraqi men. And so that was a constant challenge for me. And then another time I went, I did a voice over, I did some ADR on the devil's double and I was sitting there in this recording studio and the big screen was up and we had to do like background voiceovers and I was watching it and the lead female role, which was one of they Hussein's girlfriends, was not Arabic. And I was like, why have they cast a white girl and they dyed her hair black because I Googled her after and I was like if dyed her hair black, she doesn't speak Arabic she's white. And it really, really upset me. That was the first time that I actually realized what was happening in the industry and how it made me feel as an actor. And I asked the ADR director, I said, why have they done that? Why have they not cast some Arab in that role? They found a way around it and they said, well he's probably got girlfriends from all over the world so that's kind of how they get around it and they change the story and then I asked another guy and he said it's all political because it's filmed in a particular country and then they want actors from that country so you have to make deals and I just thought this is heart breaking and so I went and made my own play which was all women we will get on to that play as well because I really want to talk about it but I want to hear from Lara as well what was your experience? I think very, very similar to Dina. I think I find this industry frustrating at times I think I'm in a bracket of like Dina where I'm not dark enough to be an Arab and I'm not light enough to be a British actor and so I'm stuck in the middle of people wondering, well you've got green eyes, you can't be Arab what's wrong with you, you're too light skinned and I think it's an issue in our industry speaking quite frankly and I think we're at a time right now where diversity is prevalent and it's sort of Baba ha'tal muit, Baba ha'tal muit you clearly enjoyed that and I think it's tough being an Arab woman in this industry because again I see roles played by English actors and I'm like you're not Arab yet you have a problem if I play a British actor so it's double standards and if we're going to talk about racism I don't really want to so much get into that topic but this industry is kind of full of those things where they are very dismissive of sort of women female actors who are of Middle Eastern heritage and I kind of feel like now we're at a time where things are changing and I'm hoping that we can all ride that wave but yeah it's heartbreaking it's annoying, it's frustrating and like Dina we just keep pushing and breaking those doors down hopefully more power to the both of you just while we're talking about your experience Lara you've done a lot of political theatre in the UK and I wanted to ask you how do you choose to approach projects that are political because of your dad or does it just happen organically? No they find me I I came I came back from Amman from Jordan working with my dad for about five years in the end of 2012 and I came and I straight away did the play about Khalil Jaldran and then ever since all I've done is political theatre it's like ingrained in my name I just, I feel I think like once you do one you're kind of known oh you're in that circle of she's done it call her she's done it and then you just kind of build it up and I also love political theatre I definitely have a lot more to learn about political theatre working with my dad was such a stepping stone to understanding political theatre and I'm very grateful for that and I don't know I think it's just in our bones okay it will follow me till the day I die I mean that's wonderful you know as a political theatre maker I'm like yeah that's great that's my life too so now to go back to another piece of political theatre to talk about return Dina you mentioned it it's your project that you made to kind of do all the things that you couldn't do when other people were responsible for casting and can you tell us about how that came about yeah that was literally off the back of that audition where I came out feeling so frustrated and I just thought oh my god what do I do how do I I want to make my own work and at the same time all this was happening in Iraq and there were so many Iraqi refugees in Jordan and in Syria and I just thought why don't I start exploring that and make a piece of work about Iraq and about women in Iraq and my experience of growing up there under Saddam Hussein but also now of the occupation and what's happening and so I just saved up loads of money I bought a video camera and I went to Syria and I met lots of Iraqi women who I interviewed on camera then I went to Jordan and I interviewed Iraqi women in Jordan and I went to Iraq and did the same thing in Iraq in Baghdad and I just sort of on my own started researching it with this idea but not a single penny to work with and not even anyone else to work with but I just kept doing it because I just wanted to do it and it gave me something that I believe you know something to do that I believed in and then I spoke to a director and she said I want to direct it this is brilliant and then we got a designer on board so the three of us would sort of like brainstorm ideas and talk about what we wanted to do and then we just tried for little small pots of funding every now and then and do sort of research and development workshops and and shareings and showcases and then we performed it at the Yard Theatre in London in 2012 and it sold out it completely it broke their box office record they were so impressed and they were like wow we've we've never sold out before because it was quite a new theatre at the time and then we realised oh there's something just you know let's keep developing it and so we just kept developing it and then we were invited to the Liverpool Arab Arts Festival and then we were invited to the International Women's Festival in Amman and we performed it there and and yeah and then we just kept developing it and and Lara was that as well Lara is one of the cast so it was a cast of five women and the production crew were all women as well like the designer the video projection director and but and that wasn't sort of intentional it just happened by nature of the piece so yeah that was amazing that sounds amazing Lara do you want to talk to us a little bit about the project that you're working on right now with Dina and Good Chance oh well we finished it it's not really that talkable because it's so early in the stage we can tell you what it was but it's basically we did a research and development workshop on zoom of a new play that we're developing and Lara was one of the actors again involved in that so yeah super super new Dina is the person to talk about it but yeah it was great fantastic for a day workshop and quite interesting doing it on zoom as well first time for me definitely I was about to ask how was I can imagine rehearsing on zoom well it was okay it wasn't a rehearsal which made it easier obviously it's not ideal because being in a room together physically is way better but we made the best out of the current situation that we can and I think when lockdown first happened one of the things that we talked about good chance we had an emergency meeting and we said that you know how do we keep artists employed how do we keep giving them work because they are gonna really suffer in this more than anyone else so we applied for emergency funding from the arts council for lots of different projects that would sort of pay artists to work and one of them was to develop this idea that I'd had for a long time because I had read my friend's script it's about Sudan and we got the money and we did a four day research and development workshop so we read the script we talked about ideas we improvised and it worked actually surprisingly well there were a few technical hitches admittedly you know people's internet cutting out and things like that and I think that was on zoom is quite tiring but it was definitely useful and we definitely got a lot out of it and so did the writer so it was definitely worth doing it was really I was gonna say better than not doing anything it was really nice to be back in that sort of brain sort of workforce it's kind of like showing away the cobwebs everybody was like we haven't worked for ages we're so tired so rusty the beauty of working on zoom is that you know Lara when I rang her up and said are you available these are the dates she said well I'm available the first two but the second two I'm gonna be on holiday in Greece and I was like that doesn't matter because we're doing it on zoom so she joined us from Greece which was great it was awesome it had its benefit have you got any tips for any theater makers who are now working on zoom do you have anything from your experience I would say eight hours in a day is too much for the actors so the first two days we did eight hours and we found that everyone was really knackered and it just was sort of difficult so the second two days we staggered it so we made it so that nobody worked more than five hours a day and they might do two in the morning and then rejoin us and do two hours in the afternoon so we sort of staggered it and we had plenty of breaks every 45 minutes we took a five minute break and then with the usual hour break and the tea breaks so yeah it's about planning good planning and the director was amazing so she planned it really well okay now just one question for you Lara I wanted to ask you what was it like working with your dad because I think that's quite a special relationship that you must have working as a father and daughter is and as you know the leader of the company we have a very special relationship me and pops what was it like I mean you know my dad's my dad at home but my dad is my director in the workplace and I never really saw it any other way other than you know he's boss you know I am the little actor who's employed and given five minutes before you don't give it to me no joking but no it was great because I love working with my dad we have a fantastic working relationship we work very well together we feed off each other he pushes me especially when it shows in Arabic because all our shows are in Arabic so this is like the first time I get the script I sound like I don't know what like I'm a foreigner who's been away from Jordan for the past like 500 years and I don't know how to speak and then but you know he guides me he helps me and within the first week I've got the script and I've learned it and we're good I mean it's brilliant we were I'll give you a quick funny example we were doing a show a Ramadan show we do big Ramadan shows and it was just us two it was the first time it was just me and him and I go on stage and I open the show it's a father daughter sketch and I'm opening the show and I'm talking about oh how I want to be free and you know like I'm gonna go out and everything's gonna be great and then my dad from behind the stage is shouting at me and then he comes on stage he says a line and then I freeze I black out do you remember Baba said and I forget my lines and there are 500 people just sitting there and I'm just staring at them and I look at Baba and I shake my head and I'm like nope it's not coming out and he kind of just stops the show and goes don't worry my daughter's just forgotten her lines give her a second and then you just hear like a roar of laughter and I take a second and I'm like oh I remember them and we continue so in that way it's a very easy relationship it's we have fun on stage which is really nice and off the stage probably right and what I know of working in the field it was always good fun oh really I know all of it all about the food and the fun what was it like for you Nabi working with your daughter well it was very pleasant to your daughter doing so well Lara is very good on the uptake he takes instructions very well it's a very and in one way it's a very professional relationship I am demanding my church is the stage there is no mucking about with me there you have to be committed you have to do well he learns her lines very quickly she learns her instructions she keeps them doesn't forget and sometimes I want more of her he gives it's a wonderful relationship you know it really is nice easy to write for her and she has a lovely stage presence I must admit like her and she does accents she barely knows Jordanian she did an Italian Arab accent she did an Egyptian Arab accent she did a Syrian Arab accent in one play she played all these characters so it was very pleasant I missed it but I think we reached a degree where she had to grow to challenge something else and at this Ramadan theater which I did for 20 years and we wrote 20 days or more for it I reached a degree where I thought it's time really I'm tired of it and with the political changes so much you say Halas let's go home find our own way a more challenging world which England is challenging in the house as well I don't like I don't like auditions by the way you go to auditions and these nitwits you are a miniscule insect in front of them you know I wouldn't have I wouldn't put them in my as a driver but I had trouble with these auditions because I came from a place where I make my own auditions I write my own plays I put my own conditions on a production and you go there and he tells you you do an Arab ambassador and you do an Arab ambassador I know Arab ambassadors most of my friends they talk like this they talk nice you make them a bit like that Arab ambassador a few walk out I totally get you on auditions I don't like auditions either I don't like holding auditions I think it's such a process and yeah no I don't like it thank you so much unfortunately I think that is all we have time for tonight but if you have any closing statements if you want to add anything else now is your chance yes I will say something Arabic called ya api kilafye God give you good health you run it very well very well I don't think you can blabber anymore unless the girls want to but I've done enough for tonight thank you very much thank you very much thank you and for those of us for those of us watching join us again in two weeks time to watch stones and oranges by Ashtar theater from Palestine we will be talking about their show with the actors of the show Iman Awun and Edward Mualem will also be joined by the director Mojisola Adebayo and also by Richard Falk the professor of international law and he was the former UN special repertoire for Palestinian human rights and he will be coming on the panel as well so see you again on the 31st of August send us the link please I will do thank you very much bye girls bye