 neutral, nonpartisan platform, including tonight's debate on evidence for God. With our debaters, Godless Girl and the Muslim Apologist, and if you enjoy what either of them have to say tonight, our guest links are in the description below. With that, I'm going to hand it over to Godless for their up to 10 minute opening statement. Godless, the floor is all yours. Oh, I probably won't need 10 minutes, but I've been asked to go first, even though he's the affirmative. I have no problem giving that handicap, though. So well, first of all, after tearing down my argument, I'm going to have to put up his own, like really the default position when it comes to the existence of God is to not believe in God until you have sufficient evidence, which I don't think he's going to come close to providing that. And when it comes specifically to his God, there's going to be problems with the properties such as omnipotence, there's the omnipotence paradox. God can't create a stone that he's all powerful, but he can't create a stone that's so heavy that he can't lift it, because that would be a contradiction. But I could do that. Right? It's largely possible to do that. I could do that. But his God can't do that yet. His God is omnipotent. It just doesn't make any sense. It's like gibberish. Then there's going to be problems with the omnipotence and omniscience, like the problem of evil. If God is omniscient, then he desires to stop the evil in the world. And if he is omnipotent, then he can stop the evil in the world. But yet we see evil in the world. So therefore that God doesn't exist. There's the problem with, so when it comes to any God, if you define it as a disembodied mind that created the universe, if you take time to begin at the Big Bang, then you can't have a God creating the Big Bang, because that would be having a time before time, which is just gibberish. That's like existing before time, before it's temporal. Another thing is imagine a world where no gods exist, but people like Muslim apologists just desperately want to believe that they do for various reasons, such as they're afraid of death, whatever, a world in which we know people invent myths, have imaginary friends, lie to each other and lie to themselves, we know from psychology that people tend to believe what they want to believe and what they expect to be true. And now tell me, why the fuck do you think we're not in that world? What observation are you making in this world that makes you think we're not in that world? Because that's the world that, this world appears exactly to be that world to me. Open mic. Woohoo! Thank you so very much, Godless. And with that, I'm going to hand it over to you Muslim apologists for your up to 10 minute opening statement. Thank you Amy. Yes, thank you Godless for that opening. So I begin with a short du'a, Islamic greetings. Assalamu alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh, peace and blessings be upon you. Rabbish Rahli, Saudri, Waisir Ali, Amri, Wahlul Ukdata, Mililisani, Yafkahu Koli. So that is a short prayer from the du'a, the prayer, the du'a of Musa, alaihi salam, the Moses in the Quran, when he faced Pharaoh or the Pharaoh. So basically today we're going to talk about my position on why I believe in the existence of God. So for the purpose of this introduction, I won't be touching on the points that Godless has presented. We will just leave that for the open discussion. So basically we need to begin. How does Islam define God? So this is actually encapsulated in a very short surah, surah al-Ikhlaas. Basically the verse goes, kul hua warhu ahad, awa hu somad, labn yalid walam yulad, walam yakula hu kufwan ahad. So to translate that it means God is one, God the Eternal, Absolute. He neither begets nor is He begotten, and there is none like unto Him. So based on the principle that this verse, this surah has given us, we can definitely define God as God is not Deism, is not understood as how Deis would understood God, an impersonal being which has no conscious, which has no intelligence. God is definitely not a trion, okay. God does not divide itself into three parts. God is not a schizo-phrenic. God is not a polytheism. God does not, there are no multiple gods, there is only one God. That is how Islam defines God. So now that we have understood how Islam defines God, let us now go to my reasons as to why I believe there is a God. So first of all there is this principle called, or this innate understanding of in the human being, called willijow naturalis, the natural inclination of man to worship the one supreme being. This is evident in the human psyche. You can actually deny this unless you want to suppress it, yes. But you can't deny that this inclination to worship something which is bigger than you, which is higher than supreme than you exists in you as a human being. So scientists would call this the God-jean, right. So that's my first point. The second point would be, if you look at the world, the creation, you always realize there's always a cause and effect, okay. Something can never exist from nothing, okay. Something cannot exist in the vacuum and just simply pop up out of thin air, right. So there's always something that will be caused by something else, right. So you can't just simply say that this thin, for example, magically appears out of nowhere without a creator. So this is why I believe that this world, this beautiful world that we live in, this air that we breathe and so on, must have a cause, must have a supreme cause to this existence, right. And then we have the next point which is design, okay, related to the earlier point. So this thin, this beautiful thin with all these designs and these colors and this logo has someone designing it. I mean, it's not going to just appear out of thin air, right. So likewise, if you look at creation, you see the trees, you see the sky, you see the earth, you see the sun, the planets, the orbit of planets, the laws of gravity, etc. This can't just simply exist out of nothing without an intelligent supreme being determining and controlling everything. So this is why I believe that there has to be a supreme being which, you know, basically designed the whole universe. And then we also go into morality and ethics, okay. So how do we define what is murder, what is rape, what is arson, okay. I mean, as human beings, we are always subject to emotion and we are incapable of being objective. So who is the supreme arbitrator to define what is moral, what is not, okay. At what point did moral objectiveness values arise? So this is something which, you know, non-theist should answer because atheism for me doesn't resolve this question. So my last point, okay, just because I'm just summarizing it to five points. So this is the fifth and last point. Human reasoning, okay. So without God, okay, there will be no explanation for human reason, for human free will, okay. So where does the human reason arise, okay. The fact that we are here shows that, you know, we don't just simply, you know, appear out of nowhere, right. So reasoning has to be, you know, has to come from a single source. I mean, you just, you don't just, if you look at, you know, creatures, for example, they are not, they don't come with reason, okay. But only humans have reason. Why is that, okay. So the absence of God does not explain this. So in conclusion, the burden is of proof to determine whether God exists or not, to deny God's existence is actually upon the atheists or the non-theists because they need to show strong evidence apart from, you know, appealing to emotionalism that God does not exist. And with that, I end my intro. Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to speak. Thank you so very much, the Muslim apologists. And with that, we are going to move into about 50 minutes of open dialogue. I'm handing the panel and the floor right back over to you guys. Okay. I didn't understand the very first thing you said. But so the last thing you said was about the ability to reason, like where did it come from? Like I could get into the, like how it evolved and everything, but that's actually irrelevant because you're just giving the argument from ignorance, which is we don't know, therefore God. So it's just, it's a fallacy. What you're doing is just a logical fallacy. Like let's assume, for the sake of argument, that we can't explain how reasoning came about. That isn't a reason to believe in God. I don't know if you want to respond to that because I can have more to. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, God. Well, basically what, you know, to me, the evidence for God is a puzzle. It's a big puzzle. You can't just simply isolate one. It's what? It's what? It's a huge puzzle. So basically what I mean is, you know, the points that I give is just, you know, pieces of the puzzle, which you need to fit in together. But how is that a piece? How is that one piece evidence when it's fallacious reasoning? Yes. Well, you need to actually look at the whole picture. It's not just about human reasoning alone. You need to look at morality and. Well, let's just look at that for now. We can look at the other puzzle pieces later. Let's just look at this. Well, for me, you can't. It's a lot. It's a fallacy. What you're saying is a fallacy. Well, it's only a fallacy. You've made an error in reasoning, sir. It's called the appeal to ignorance. For me, to look at this in a vacuum in isolation, OK, it's not it's not that's not just justified. That's not doesn't does not do justice to the point that I raised. OK, you can't just simply say, oh, you're pretty much abandoning that point then. I'm not abandoning the point. I'm just saying that, you know, you need to look at all this as pieces of the puzzle, which fits together. OK, points to the one through God. You see, yes, he doesn't really have a response to me pointing out it's a fallacy. I guess he just says we need the other pieces of the puzzle, which isn't a fucking argument. So now let's go to what he fucking said about ethics. Like, oh, where would we get ethics from? If it wasn't for God, you know, like the punishment and all that. Well, first of all, I'm a moral noncognitive, so I don't think that any moral proposition is true or false. But you've just committed another fucking fallacy, sir, which is the appeal to consequences. So let's assume that if we don't have a God, that there's no way to be moral or have moral laws or whatever. That doesn't mean that a fucking God exists. Are you stupid? That's another fallacy. Do you want to respond to that before I go to the other things you said? Well, then you will need to propose something, which, you know, which is just, which is moral. How do you define what is moral? What do you how do you define what is moral? What's the argument that I need to do that? Oh, God exists. If I don't do that, then God exists. What the fuck? Well, from what I understand, from what I understand from the artistic point of view, if you say that there's no such thing as morality, I mean, you know, you don't have to define what is moral and ethics. Then I can define myself. What is moral and ethical? So if I were to go out and murder someone, would that be moral to you? How do you know that there's moral? I don't believe moral propositions are true or false. It's just you may not believe that. Yes. Preferences are not. Yes, you may not believe that. But what about other people? So you can go out and you want that it doesn't mean that God exists. Yeah, but is that moral or not? That's the question. I mean, you can't do that. I don't believe moral propositions are true or false, sir. Well, again, you need to show evidence that, you know, what is moral and what is not moral? I mean, how do you define morality? Why do I need to do that? Why does that have to do with whether or not God exists? Because that is how we as human beings live in a society. That is how we interact with other people. That is how we as human beings live our life. So if there's no morality, there's no ethics, there's no need for morality, then how are you going to lead your life? How will you just act on their preferences? People have ethical preferences. So if my if my preference is if my personal preference is to go out and kill people, you would accept that. What can I say? Oh, no, we need to say that God exists to stop you. Like, what do you want me to say? Yeah, you can go out and kill people if you want. What about that? That actually speaks volumes because, you know, if I were to go and take by a gun, walk into a, you know, somewhere in the US and I shoot everyone, that is moral. That is OK for you because, you know, because that is absolutely maybe you didn't understand the fucking fallacy. It's called the appeal to consequences. So what you're saying is if we don't believe in God, then we can just go out and murder people. That's not a fucking argument. That's an error in reasoning, sir. That is what exactly I'm saying, because without without. I know, exactly. That's a fucking logical fallacy. Then then you need to tell me how do you? Then this is the second fallacy I pointed out. You fuck. I mean, for me, it's not a fallacy. You want to go to the next point about fucking trees? That was what the next thing I'm going to do, and I can't I can't explain the point properly. OK, please, please. Excuse me. Yeah, I mean, like I said, everything that I've laid out is pieces of the puzzle. Yes, you can pick each one and dissect each and every one. But in the end, you need to look at the whole picture. It's not just about, you know, more of the puzzle, full of logical fallacies and get God. What the fuck is the matter with you? You need to go through and tell me you wish is the fallacy, because I don't see the fallacy here. I'm sorry, you don't convince me. I told you Google it. It's called the appeal to consequences. And the first one was the appeal. Yes, you can throw. Yes, you can throw all kinds of, you know, terms appeal to fail at appeal to logic appeal to this appeal to emotionalism, appeal to, you know, whatever. But it doesn't mean anything because you don't fit in the whole puzzle. You see, I mean, let's let's go through. You need you need to go through the whole thing. And only then you can tell me the fallacies are not problematic. If you're putting them into what you are what you are doing is just to pick at one particular point and then you try to, you know, slam. We're going to address each point one at a time. OK, I mean, it's OK. Go ahead. It's up to you. I mean, we can go through it. We're going to address each one at a time. What do you want me to address them all at once? Because there's something also called the machine gun fallacy, sir, which would be if you wanted me to address all your points at the same time. I've never heard of that. It's an embarrassment. Aren't you embarrassed? You come on this fucking show and you don't even know what a goddamn motherfucking cop suck in logical fallacy is. What the fuck is the matter with you? I don't rely on. I don't rely on, you know, this kind of philosophical arguments or physical pointing logic. You don't rely on logic and reason. I don't rely on pointing out logical fallacies to others, because I believe that sometimes you need to appeal to your heart. You need to appeal not just to logic, pure, uncalculative logic alone. You need to have some heart into it. OK, so it's not just about logic alone when it comes to, you know, evidence for the existence of God, say, yeah. So you need to look at the bigger picture, as I said. OK, like the trees, that thing, you want to look at the fucking trees. So you're saying that these things appear designed, what? What they don't, they don't. OK, well, sir, you're saying that all these things in the world appear designed. How the fuck do you know if everything in the world appears designed? Then what are you fucking comparing it against? That would be a non-design. If you don't know, if you don't have an example, sir, if you don't have an example of something that is not designed, then how do you know what fucking something that's designed looks like? Answer the question. Is this design? Answer the. Yeah, this design is this design. Yes or no. Yeah. And you know what I'm comparing it that you know what I'm comparing that against to determine that it's designed a fucking tree because a tree is not designed. Now, what are you comparing the trees? I think a tree is much more complicated and much more, much more, much more complex and much more complicated than this. All right. Yeah. And I don't think a tree in a computer mouse. Yes, yes, it is. It is much complex and much, much, much more, much more complicated. I don't think you can create a tree. I challenge you to create the tree. If you can do that, then yeah, I will come. Minds don't create trees, sir. Like you, then I think then I think you haven't you. I mean, you haven't gotten my point. So what's the point? Well, I'm asked. I asked you a question that you didn't answer. What are you to determine their design? What are you comparing the answer? The answer is when you said yes, when I asked you, is this design? You said yes. So if this mouse, I have examples of minds creating computer mouse. Sorry, please don't interrupt me, please. So please, this mouse, this, this simple mouse, OK, has a creator. What makes you think a tree, which with all these complexities, with all these organisms, with all the veins of the tree, the leaves, the, you know, the because we know we know that, you know, trees. Produces carbon, you know, carbon oxygen. And so, you know, breathe in oxygen, take oxygen, et cetera. What makes you think a tree, which is much more complex than this, does not have a creator? Because I don't see any evidence to believe it. And I don't if I did believe that everything in the world, this is the point you haven't responded to. Then I can use the same. I will probably use then if that's the case, then I can just deny it as well. I can just say, OK, this does not have a creator. I don't believe that this has a creator. But I can show you evidence of computer mice being created by minds, sir. That's basically that's basically what you are saying. So I mean, that's not an argument to me. That's a fantasy. Sir, I would I can pull up a fucking YouTube video of like a computer factory and you can watch fucking people with minds creating computer mice. You can't do that with God, mind creating the universe. If you ask me, I think you have already completed the point. I stopped talking when you said yes to my question. You're being rude. I stopped interrupting you. So stop. Whether it is, sir, calm down, go ahead. OK, you didn't answer the fucking question. How are you determining that it's designed? If you think everything in the world is designed, then you have nothing that's undesigned to compare it to to determine that it's designed. Because it is human logic. I mean, something cannot be created out of nothing. You can say that this thing was created out of nowhere. Someone must have done something to it, right? Something someone must have possessed it. So the trees just appear out of nowhere. Oh, it's hard to release two options. We can have a natural universe. That's what you live in, an oscillating universe, right? Something that's not a God could have caused the universe. There's all these different options. It's not that something can't like it's not either God or something came from nothing. There's all these different options. But by the way, now I'm going to ask this guy a question. He's claiming that something can't come from nothing. And I want everybody to watch him dodge this question. He won't be able to not be able to answer it. If nothing exists, right? Nothing is the absence of everything. Then what the fuck is the thing that's preventing something from popping into existence, sir? Now watch and dodge. Watch him not answer. So yeah, I don't I don't really get it. I mean, you're saying what something is happening. If nothing exists, nothing is the absence of everything. You're saying something can't pop into existence because there's something that's preventing it from popping into existence. What is the thing that's preventing it? If nothing exists, if nothing exists, then nothing is preventing to something from popping into existence, right? There has to be something that's preventing it. I mean, if I throw this to the ground. Exactly. And someone is preventing me from throwing it to the ground. But there's not something that's preventing it if nothing exists. If something prevents me from throwing this to the ground, then someone must have been preventing something. So it's the same thing. It's the same logic here. I mean, you can simply assume that just because there's nothing is preventing me from stopping it. There's not no existence for, there's no force stopping me from doing it. I mean, where's the logic in that? I don't get the logic. I don't understand how you cannot understand. If nothing exists, then there is not something that's preventing something from popping into existence, right? It goes back to my earlier point. I mean, I mean, oh, okay. I don't know how to break this down any further because there has to be, like I said, there's always a cause and effect, okay? That effect doesn't come before the cause. This is basic logic. You can't say that if the effect comes before the cause, okay, this is basic human understanding of logic, okay? So there's always A, there's always B first. I'm sorry, B after A, A cannot come after B. So what you're proposing is that B comes before A. I mean, it doesn't make any sense to me. I don't know what you're talking about. What am I proposing comes before what? No, I mean, I don't know. You want to go to the next point. I mean, I think I've said my piece. So I want you to explain what you just said. So basically what I'm saying is that nothing, okay? Nothing, nothing can't exist, okay? Okay, without something happening, all right? Do you get my point? No, you're just restating the claim. Yeah, I am stating the claim. That is what I'm saying. Yeah, you're restating the claim without answering my question about the claim or explaining it. Well, basically I'm saying that this is human reasoning. I mean, if you can't accept it, I mean, there's nothing I can say. What is human reasoning? Okay? Human reasoning is a faculty for us to think and understand and to will everything. Yeah, what makes us human? That's the question. Do you agree or disagree with them? You're trying to do a red herring. Do you agree or disagree with this? If nothing exists, then nothing is preventing something from popping into existence. Do you agree with that? I disagree with it because how can nothing prevent something? So what is the thing that's preventing it? What is the thing that's preventing it? It depends on the situation. I mean, you can't be like the laws of cause and effect, right? Because nothing exists. The laws of cause and effect don't exist. So it can't be that. What you're proposing is that something might have caused nothing to exist. I mean, I mean, it still goes back to something. It goes back to something that will prevent it to become nothing. I'm not claiming that something came to nothing. I'm just claiming it's not a logical impossibility. That is illogical. What you're proposing is illogical because it doesn't make any sense to me. What's the contradiction? I'm not proposing it. I'm just saying that it's a logical possibility. It might be counterintuitive. Something coming from nothing might be counterintuitive, but that's not an argument, right? That's my point. It can't be counterintuitive. I don't know why you don't think maybe the laws of cause and effect just came into existence at the Big Bang and didn't exist prior to it. Well, you want to talk about the Big Bang, then that's a different discussion actually that we can talk about. There's something for the different. No, it's not. We're talking about something coming from nothing. Yeah, if you want to talk about it, then yes. I also already pointed out that we could also live in an oscillating universe, right? It doesn't mean that a God created this. Let's assume something can't come from nothing, even though I fucking humiliated and destroyed you on that point. Let's assume that it can't for the sake of argument. How do you know the universe isn't past eternal or that we live in a fucking oscillating universe because our universe is like constantly expanding and then it's going to collapse in on itself and that could result in another Big Bang and there's been a past infinite number of Big Bangs and times the universe expand and then collapse in on itself, right? Or something that's not a God, not a mind could have caused the universe or we could live in a multiverse. All these other things are possibility. You're just making a false dichotomy. When you say, you know, sir, I wasn't finished. I wasn't finished, just making a false dichotomy. There's tons of options. So you're just making a false dichotomy when you say that it's either something came from nothing or a God created the universe. Those are not the only two options. Well, you're going to have to show me what exactly are the options are there apart from this because yeah, you can say that we live in a multiverse. We can say that, you know, the world is infinite, you know, we are going through multiple Big Bangs. I know that scientists have proposed this, but you're going to have to show evidence than just simply proposing theories. You're just throwing theories, but you're not showing any evidence. See. No, I'm not proposing any one particular theory. These are all theories with possibilities. Please don't interrupt me. Please, sorry, please, excuse me. Please don't interrupt me. So basically what you are doing, you're just throwing theories with scientists have been, you know, throwing out for decades, but there's no conclusive evidence to this. So, I mean, of course, there are many possible. You can say that the earth is probably on the back of an elephant and the elephant is walking on water for, okay, I care. But that doesn't, that doesn't prove your position. That doesn't prove that what you are saying is true. You need, you're going to have to show more evidence than just see. So, yeah. You're fucking idiot. I don't have a position. I don't know where the universe came from. I don't, but I don't need to show you how the universe came about. That's not a, like, what are you saying? Are you doing the appeal to ignorance again? Where without God, we don't know, therefore God must exist. I don't know where the fucking universe came from. I don't know if it always existed. Excuse me, I'm not finished. I was saying all these other possibilities because against your claim that there's only two options, either God created the universe or something came from nothing. And I was showing that, no, that's stupid, right? That's not the only two options. And I listed all these other possibilities. I don't take a position on any of them. I don't fucking know. And that's fine for me to not know. That doesn't mean that God exists. So, basically you're saying you don't know, you don't care about the existence of the universe. You're not curious about it. You don't want to know your place in the universe. So that's how low you think humans are. You think humans are just here to exist, to live and breathe and to die. Before that, you poke, create, and then you die. And then the cycle just leaves again, just goes on again. I mean, for me, that is a really pointless point of existence, you see? So what value do you put to your existence? I mean, what is your purpose of life? I mean, don't you have the curiosity to know what's your purpose of life at the very least? Yeah, so me saying that there's all these different possibilities, and I don't know which one is the case, doesn't mean that I'm not, it doesn't follow that then I'm not curious, right? But, and then what's the stuff about what is the value of life? Are you doing the appeal to consequence thing, like life is pointless without God? Are you doing that again? Life is pointless without God, therefore God exists. That's not an argument. That's an error in reasoning. How is that erroneous? I mean, I mean. Sir, do you understand that just because something has consequences, doesn't mean it's false? Well, okay, I'm going to try to steal. I'm going to try to steal. It doesn't follow because it has consequences. Let's assume my AP is, life is pointless and you can't have values or whatever the fuck he claims. That doesn't mean that God exists. That's not an argument. It's an error in reasoning. Like I said, you need to show evidence, you need to propose an authentic theory to God's existence. You deny this, you say that it doesn't matter to you, it doesn't, you know, you don't, basically you don't care about the existence of the universe. I didn't say that. For me, for me, that's basically why you're implying, even if you don't say this clearly. No, I didn't say that. So, yeah, to me, I mean, I mean, your reasoning is just that you're just pointing out logical philosophies here and there, logical, this is wrong, that is wrong. But you're not listening, you're not understanding, you're not feeling. So, for me, all this comes together, all this comes together as a part, like I said, it's part of a huge jigsaw puzzle, which when you fit in together, then you will know and realize that the world does not exist in the vacuum, okay? I mean, yeah, as you can say, this is a logical policy, that is a logical policy. We gotta address this fucking puzzle thing because I don't understand it, right? You're saying that if you put a bunch of errors and reasoning together in a puzzle, that you get God? See, you're doing it again. You're pointing, this is a logical fallacy, that is a logical fallacy, this is wrong, that is wrong. But again, you're not listening, you're not understanding, you're not feeling, you're not, you're not. What am I not understanding? You're not conscious, you're not conscious of your fitrah, religio naturalis, okay? You're suppressing your innate nature. What is the fitrah? Fitrah is basically what you call religio naturalis in Latin, right? So, it means a real innate, religio naturalis, the innate appeal, the innate inclination of man towards religion, regardless what religion you follow, you always have this. Even as an atheist, you would also have this as well. So, it's an innate, yeah. You're just contradicting yourself because you said that even an atheist will have it, but you just will be aware of it, but you just said that I'm not aware of it, right? Yes. You said I'm not aware of it, right? But you just said all men have it. So, you're just contradicting yourself, sir. Sorry, sorry, you're not listening again. Sorry, please. So, basically what I'm saying is this, okay? Everyone has a religio naturalis. Everyone has an inclination towards religion, okay? You just said I don't. I didn't say that you don't. I'm saying that you're suppressing it, okay? I'm saying that you're suppressing it. So, even an atheist has an inclination towards religion. Yes, you're not conscious, it's not that you're not conscious of it, that I'm not aware of it, am I? You're suppressing it, you're suppressing it. That's what I'm saying. Now you're back puddling and changing your claim. You contradicted yourself. Maybe I didn't word it properly. I'm sorry, I'm just defining what I... Oh yeah, you misspoke. Yeah, yes, probably, yes. Maybe you didn't get what I meant earlier, so I'm sorry for that. But basically what I mean is everyone has this. Everyone, regardless whether you're an atheist, whether you're a Hindu, whether you're a Jew, et cetera, whether you're a Muslim, you have this innate inclination towards religion. So this is something which, like I said, it's a piece of a puzzle which fits together to the points that I've already mentioned earlier. The concept of design, the concept of cause and effect, morality and ethics, et cetera. So without this innate understanding of fitra, of your religion, naturalist, your inclination towards religion, you're going to just say, oh, this is a fallacy. That is a fallacy. This is wrong, that is wrong. And you're not going to come to the conclusion that I was trying to present. That is basically what I'm saying. Do you not think that there's a problem with fallacious reasoning? Again, say you're doing it again. You're saying, okay, this is a religion. I mean, you're suppressing your... No, I'm saying that what you're asking me is a fallacy for me, to me at the very least. So I think you can just simply point out this is a fallacy, that is a fallacy. This is a fallacy, okay. So basically this is... You're asking a question as a fallacy? A question can't be a fallacy, sir. A line of reasoning. I think that... Something needs to err and a line of reasoning. That's what's fallacious, not a question. I think the fact that you're asking me that question is a fallacy in itself, because there's no one... What fallacy is it? Okay. I mean, I can't name fallacies. I'm not a philosopher. I'm not someone who, you know, indulge just into, you know, naming logical fallacies, et cetera. But the point I'm trying to make is that, okay? All this, all the points that I made is part of a huge puzzle, okay? And, you know, you need to look at them from the lenses of someone, okay, who has an open heart and open mind. And, you know, realize that, you know, the world just doesn't exist. And you need to have a curiosity and innate curiosity to understand how we exist. Why do we exist? What is our purpose of existence? So without this, without this understanding, then you're just going to... You're just going to be like a monotone robot that's pointing out fallacies here and then we won't come to any conclusion. I mean, it will be running in circles again, okay? So that is my point, my position, okay? The fitra in the puzzle pieces thing are just like claims, I don't see how they would be evidence for God, even if like that was the case, the fitra would be evidence for God. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that. It is the evidence for God. I'm saying it's a part of the jigsaw puzzle. Yeah, I don't see how that would be. Any kind of evidence for God. Okay. I'm not arguing that. I'm not, I'm just making the argument. No, I'm not, I'm not disclaiming. I'm saying, I'm saying. How would you be able to fucking demonstrate that every person has that? I mean, the fact that you're already asking questions about God shows that you do have some, some of it, but maybe you're suppressing it, I don't know. Maybe you are not understanding fully the bigger picture. The purpose of life. My question, somebody who believes in fairies, that means that I have some awareness that fairies actually exist. That's the red herring because you're talking about fairies and unicorns and whatever. It's not a fucking red herring. It's an analogy, sir. I mean, I mean, we're talking about God here. We're not talking about fairies or unicorns or Pegasus, which we know that these things are creations of men. We know that these things are real. You're not answering the question. It was a fucking analogy. So, you know, the reason why I say this is because, well, you, what you proposed in your opening statement, you basically, you made a stone argument. You made the problem of evil argument. Yeah, do you want to address those? I mean, we didn't get to all your arguments. I mean, I'm more than happy to argue, you know, to state that, to refute those. Okay, do you believe that God's a nippin? That God can do anything that's logically possible? Yes, of course. Of course, as I've already recited the verse, the Surah Ali class, where he says that God is supreme, omnipotent. I mean, I don't know how much more. Is it logically possible to create a stone that's so heavy you can't lift it? The question itself is nonsensical because it's illogical. How could God do something or propose something which goes against his omnipotence? Doesn't make any sense. Sir, you're not answering the question. Is it logically possible to create a stone? I can do that, right? It's not a logical question because no one can lift. What does that mean for a question to not be logical? I mean, yes, because the question, what you are proposing, what you are asking, basically the stone argument, I've heard this many, many times from atheists. I mean, the answer is simple. The answer is the question itself is illogical. It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't compute, basically. Like, for example, can you ask, it's simple. I can give you, I can ask you this. Can I ask my laptop to make coffee for me? Yes or no? If your laptop was omnipotent and could do anything that was logically possible? Yeah, your laptop should be able to fucking make coffee when you ask it to. The answer is no, of course it can't. I mean, it's impossible. If it's omnipotent, it can't. No, it's not, it's not. Because the laptop has limitations. You're just evading the question. You know where it is. No, I'm not evading the question. The question itself is illogical, you know, you see? The point I'm making is that- What's the argument? It's illogical. Sorry, excuse me, please let me finish. Look, if God, it's logical. Sir, just try to stick with me here, okay? Okay, sure. It's logically possible to create a stone that's so heavy you can't lift it, right? It's not logical. You can do it. No, the answer is no. I can do it. I can do it. Sir. No, it's illogical. You can't create a stone that you have to be collected. You can't. No, the answer is simple. You can put a bunch of stones together that are so heavy you can't lift it. No, the answer is simple. Why would God do something which goes against his omnipotence? Why would God do something that is so illogical that it goes against his transgressors, his omnipotent, you know, his supreme might and demonstrate that he's weak? Why would God do that? Why would God want to do that? Yeah, you see? That's the point. I don't care. We're not talking about cash suppliers. We're talking about his abilities. No, the answer is simple. The answer is your question is illogical and shouldn't be asked. It's that simple. It's really that simple. Okay. It's a nonsensical question. Okay. We're not talking about God's merit. Can I create a thing? Can I, is there such thing as a pink elephant? That's the question. Is there such thing as a pink elephant? Walking in the forest, you know? Why is that relevant? Living and breathing. That's right, exactly. That's the point I'm trying to make. The question is nonsensical, right? There's no such thing as a pink elephant, right? No, it's a yes or no question that I can answer. Not that I know of. No, I don't know of any fucking pink elephants. Yeah, the answer is nonsensical. I don't know what you mean. The answer is simple. No, the answer is simple. The question is illogical. Just as when you ask me, can a God create a stone? Let me take you through the line of reasoning without asking a question, since you can't fucking handle questions. It's logically possible to create a rock that's so heavy you can't lift it, right? That's something I can do. Sir, you can do it, right? You can put a glue, a bunch of stones together until they're so heavy that you can't lift it. No, I've never heard anyone doing that. Now you're just being dishonest. What are you, a fucking troll, saying that you can't do that? I've never heard of anyone doing that or anyone attempting to do that. Why would anyone want to do that? That's the question. You're being so dishonest. So I think it's transparent to everybody who's watching that you're being fucking dishonest. I can create a bunch of rocks, little rocks together, right? And create a conglomerate rock that's so heavy I can't lift it, right? I'm not very strong. It wouldn't take very many goddamn fucking rocks to do that. So that's a lot of possibility. It's something that I'm really good to do. That would be really be illogical and dumb and a very dumb thing to do. We just keep talking over each other. So let me finish and then you can blabber on whatever you want to do. Sorry about that. I mean, maybe I got a bit excited. Yeah, sure, sure. Because we're talking over each other too much. So it's something that is logically possible. I can do it. It wouldn't take very many rocks for me to do it. It's a logical possibility. So let's put it into a syllogism, right? It's logically possible. Creating a rock so heavy you can't lift it is a logical possibility. Premise too. God can do anything that's logically possible. Conclusion. God can create a rock that's so heavy he can't lift it. But that would be inconsistent with the omnipotence, right? So God can't be fucking omnipotent. Because if he was omnipotent, then he wouldn't be impotent enough to he wouldn't lack the power to fucking lift the rock, right? So it's just paradoxical. Now I'll shut up and you can fucking blabber on and humiliate yourself. OK, sure. Well, for me, the question itself is illogical. It's even insane. Why would anyone create a rock so heavy that he or she can't lift it? If humans can't do it, why would you think that God wants to do something like that? So the point is here, God will not do something which goes against his omnipotence. It's illogical to attribute something to a supreme being that is supremely omnipotent, that he did something or he does something which goes against that very same omnipotence. So the question itself, for me, is illogical. That is my answer, actually, right? OK. So I think I've sufficiently humiliated and destroyed him on the omnipotence paradox. If you think so. So do you want to address the other arguments you gave in the beginning, or do you want to move on to my other ones? Sure, if you want to go ahead with the other points that I've raised, go ahead. Yeah, what was the first thing you said? Because I didn't understand the first thing you said in your opening statement. Do you remember? I gave the definition of God as understood in Islam. Well, that's not an argument, right? So what was the first argument? That's just the opening. The first argument, actually, really, Joe Naturalist, which you have already talked about, we've discussed about. So yeah. So and then the second question. Did you give any arguments in your opening statement that I didn't tear down yet? I don't think you have torn down any of my arguments for that matter. Did you give any arguments in your opening statement that I didn't address yet? I don't know. Maybe morality and ethics and design. OK, sorry, you did talk about that. So in fact, what I'll say is we have about 20, 30 more minutes of open discussion, and I'll just re-center it to once again, we are talking evidence for God. All right, thank you, Amy. So maybe I should address your point, because you mentioned something about. Yeah, but I just want to be sure. Is there anything that you think is evidence for God that I didn't address yet? I think if I did touch on them, thank you. So I think I should. So wait, because I think there was something else in your opening statement that you claimed was evidence and I just didn't understand it. I don't know which one is it because I've already touched on. I mean, we've already talked about fitra. We've talked about, I mean, really Joe Naturalist. We've talked about cost and effect. We've talked about design. We've talked about morality and ethics and human reasoning. So these are the five points that I've given today. So what else have you? Okay, and I destroyed every one of your fucking supposed evidence. So the default position from here would actually be to not believe in God since there's not sufficient evidence for God, but we can go on to my other argument. So we have the omnipotence and the omnipotence Yeah, so basically what we have talked about just now was the stone argument. For me, that is basically the proposition that God can create. I mean, it goes against the idea of omnipotence, okay? Because you can't say that something will create something so impossible for him to do that he or she can't do it. I already destroyed you about the omnipotence paradox. I'm talking about something else. I don't think you did. I don't think you did. Okay, but no, I'm- Do you want to still talk about the omnipotence paradox? Excuse me, please let me finish, all right? Okay, so we talk about that. So now we're going to talk about the problem of evil. So you say that your argument is basically why is there evil in the world to the point that God- No, my argument was not a question. I gave a syllogism in the beginning. Sure, maybe you would like to elaborate on the problem of evil. Look, if God is both omniscient and, or I'm sorry, omnibenevolent and omnipotent, all powerful and all good, he would have the desire to stop evil and he would have the power to stop evil. So we wouldn't have evil, but yet we do have evil. Therefore, an omnipotent omnibenevolent God does not exist. So basically you're appealing to the idea that the world must be a peaceful place without any problems, without any chaos, without any difficulties that we go through. You see that the problem with this basic issue of problem of evil is that this is not a problem in Islam. In Islam, we believe that we human beings are here on earth. The life on earth itself is a test. Life is not permanent. In the end, everyone's gonna die and we will be judged before Almighty God. So whatever difficulty or whatever evil or whatever problem that we face on earth, it's all a test, it's part of the test from God to determine as to whether we are truly sincere in bowing down because basically what it means is that God wants us to recognize him. Our purpose on earth is to know and recognize him and to worship him. This is basically the Muslim position. So the problem of the problem of evil does not even factor in to the Muslim mind. This may be a problem to those from other faiths, but in Islam, we don't have this problem because we know that our purpose on earth is to go through the trials and tribulations of life in order that when we come before the one true God, we will be able to justify ourselves before him. So that's basically the point of evil, evil as we understand it, okay? So this is my position. Okay, you didn't address anything I said. You believe that God's omnibenevolent, right? I don't see how this has anything to do with God's attributes itself because God purposefully said that. Do you know what omnibenevolent means? Yes, omnibenevolent means God being merciful, being great, being Rahmah. All good, infinitely good, right? Yes, of course, of course. So if you're infinitely good, then you desire there to be no evil. No, I don't desire to be no evil. I mean, I don't, of course we wish that there were no evil. If you're infinitely good, then you would want to bring about the best possible world, right? Life on earth is not meant to be permanent. Hence, why we go through this evil? You're not addressing what I'm saying, sir. If you're infinitely good, then you would want to bring about the world that's the best one, right? Oh my God, okay. I think I'm going to have to reverse that a bit. I'm sorry, you need to understand this from the Islamic perspective because you're not getting it. Sir, why can't you answer a fucking question? You're not getting it. You're absolutely not getting it. Okay, I need to reverse it. But you're not getting it, sir. I'm sorry, but you are not getting it. Please let me speak, all right, at the very least. You already rambled on and it was really boring. I let you go on for a long time. I can't help it if you think that I'm boring but I'm addressing your points. I'm addressing your points. No, you didn't. I let you ramble on. It was like for a full minute and you weren't addressing anything I said and I allowed it anyway. The audience is probably fucking bored with that shit. It's up to them, but look. Do you believe that God is omnibenevolent? Oh my God, I mean, we're going back into circles again. I mean, the problem with evil has absolutely nothing to do with the attributes of God being Rahmah, basically in Islam, we believe that God is the most gracious, the most merciful. In fact, every surah in the Quran, except for one, we say, Bismillahirrahmanirrahim, God the most gracious, the most merciful. So we understand also that life has trials and tribulations, has evil, has problems, but this does not affect the omnipotence, the omnimovellent of God. So this has no relevance whatsoever. It's a totally sub-issue to that problem, to that so-called problem of evil. So I'm trying to say here. Do you believe God is omnibenevolent? You're just repeating the same question again without listening to what I said. What's the answer? You haven't answered it. I just did. I just did. You're refusing to listen to my answer. That's the problem. Is it yes or no? Is the answer yes or no? It's a yes or no question. There's no yes or no answer to this. It's a totally separate view altogether. Either God is omnibenevolent or he's not omnibenevolent. There's only those two options. There's not any in between. Either he is or he isn't. Do you disagree with that? You're still not getting the point. Absolutely you're still not getting the point. Life and trials and tribulations on earth has nothing whatsoever to do whether he's omnipotent or not. It's that simple. It's really that simple. You're a fucking clown. It's really sad. I feel sorry for you. Look, I have a bunch of friends on the internet that are actually fucking can argue for their position. They would be happy to help you. Okay, go over to Khalil's channel, Yeh-Dawah. He fucking does a live stream every night. You should go over there and learn how to fucking argue for your position. Oh my God, you're totally not getting the point. I mean, I have no problems with brother Khalil of Yeh-Dawah. I know him very well. But you're totally just skipping the point and just ignoring whatever I just said and just repeating back the same question. So I don't see anything, any benefit that... Do you agree that it's either the case that God is omnibenevolent or it's not the case? Do you agree with that? Oh my God, I mean, okay, you're just repeating the same question again. I mean, oh my God, I don't know what to say. No, before I ask you, is God omnibenevolent or not? Do you believe that or not? And you wouldn't answer it. Like you said there's... Of course I do believe that. Of course I do believe that God omnibenevolent. What the fuck? Why don't you just answer that? You're wasting everybody's time. Okay, so, okay. So now try this with me here. If God is omnibenevolent, then he desires, if he's infinitely good, he desires to bring about the best possible world to maximize the good, right? If you're infinitely good, you desire to maximize the good, don't you? Oh, then what the fuck does it mean to be infinitely good if you don't want to maximize the good? My God, you really don't get it. I mean, you think that life on Earth is infinite and it will never end, and then when we die, it will probably be, I don't know. What is your, actually, is your belief that, what's your position on life after death? I mean, do you actually have a position on that? I can answer that, but it's like, are we moving off? Like, are you submitting to my argument? No, I'll try not to move on. I just want to know what your position is on life after death. I don't see how that's relevant. I'll answer it though, but like, I've tore down all your supposed evidence and I've erected all my own arguments that you won't even really fucking address. You're just being so evasive. So basically right now, when you're asking me something that has nothing to do with the existence of God, what my position is on the afterlife right now, you're just curling up into a fucking field position on the floor and infallible. Just answer the question. You don't have to, you know, be belligerent about it. I'm just asking a simple question. Yeah, I think when you die, you don't come alive again, you stop existing. That's what I think. Oh, wow, okay. So yeah. You have the evidence, the contrary. Yes, so you don't believe that, you know, there's life after death. You don't believe that we are not accountable for our actions on earth. You think that life is just, well, just this space, this space-time continuum that we are living in and when it ends, when your life ends, it ends there. So that's basically your position. So okay. So now I understand where you're coming from, right? So now I do understand this. But the thing is, okay, this is totally related. So again, my position is on the- Hold on, I didn't hear you. You need to understand that my position is based on the position that there is life after death there. We are accountable for our actions. So it goes back to why we are here on earth. Okay. The reason why we are here on earth is to know and recognize the Creator. Okay. This is the Islamic position that I'm putting in, putting forth. Okay. So hence, because we are here to know and recognize the Creator, God has prepared for us life with all its difficulties. But this doesn't mean that God is not only benevolent or not all good and God does not want evil upon us. It does not mean that at all. I'm saying that life is a test. It's basically one huge test for us. So you can't expect basically cookies and chocolates throughout your life. There's going to be problems. So this is something that everyone goes through. Okay. So that doesn't affect God's omnibenevolence and all goodness and his supreme Rahmah as we call it in Islam, over all human beings. This is my position. I mean, you're talking about, okay, because God has brought out evil, so because life has evil, life has problems, life of this, therefore God doesn't exist. That's basically what you're arguing. So how is that? I mean, sorry, that argument doesn't work with the human, so it doesn't work with the Muslim position. Okay. The Muslim philosophy on this is totally different from what you understand in your Western secular life that you're leading right now. This is my position. Okay. So I hope you get at least a part of what I'm saying at the very least. Okay. And I will say, we have about five or 10 more minutes of open discussion. So keep on sending those questions into me in chat at Amy Newman, as well as those super chats. And I'll hand it back to you guys and gals before we do closing statements as well so you can tell people what you got going on. But if you have a question for each other, now's the time to do it. Handing it right back over to you guys. Okay. I just want people to know that me letting him ramble that boring nonsense just now was this good because I looked at some of the comments on my other debates and like people interrupt that I over talk too much. So that was everybody fucking making that comment about me. That was your punishment to listen to that boring nonsense for 90 seconds straight. So that's, I'm not going to interrupt him for the rest of the time. That's your fucking punishment for complaining that I interrupt too much is to listen to that garbage. Okay. So all the shit that you just said didn't actually address the, you just made a bunch of claims without giving evidence for it, right? So, and it's not addressing the omnibenevolence argument that I gave, but we can move on to something else to another argument of mine. Yeah, I think let's just move on, please. Sorry. And maybe you can give a closing statement. Yeah, you're surrendering. That's what Islam means, right? Submission, that's what the word Islam means. Well, I don't come here to win or lose, but that's up to you, all right? What's the word Islam mean? Islam has, the word Islam has many multifaceted meanings in Arabic. So it depends. One of them is submission, of course. No, I'm not being evasive. Yeah, you're submitting to a fucking female right now. But the primary meaning of Islam is peace. Okay, the primary meaning of Islam is peace. Okay, that's the thing. So it's basically the full meaning of the word Islam means, submission or to submit to the one true God in utter peace with not just with God, but with yourself and with the world. So this is basically what Islam means. But unfortunately, I don't see any peace in you. So I already feel sorry for you, but it's up to you, right? I feel sorry for you for being so pitiful, sir. It's like you've never even heard of any of the arguments for Islam before. Like I said, let's exchange emails after the show because I have Muslim friends on the internet that can help you. You really need help. It's up to you. Anyway, we can go on to another argument. So you believe that free will exists, yet you believe, see, I didn't think we, I didn't present this in my opening because I didn't think we would even have time to get to it, but you just like keep submitting to all of my arguments and give up on when I'm arguing against your evidence. So you believe that free will exist, but yet you believe that God is omniscient. So God knows everything you'll do before you're born, then you can't have free will because choice would imply that there's more than one option, but there's never more than one option if an omniscient God exists. And I'm sure God created it to brought about all the affairs, right? So let's just take your choosing between coffee and tea, right? If God, a choice implies there's more than two options. So you have the coffee and the tea. Sorry, I'm not articulating well. But if God knew before you were born, you were going to drink the coffee, then you can't drink the tea, right? That's not an option, right? Can God be wrong? Can God be wrong, sir? Okay, let me see. It's basically the same. I'm just going to let him ramble on because I don't complain, I interrupt too much. So let's listen to his garbage. Go ahead, sir. Can God be wrong? No, God can't be wrong because basically, yes, we have free will, we have free will, okay? But what do you mean by free? What's your definition of free will? I mean, free will doesn't mean that we are not bound by limitations, okay? We have, there are limitations on what we can do and what we are free to do, right? So in your question, you asked whether God knew that I'm going to, let's say if I pick this up, that God knew that I was going to pick this up, yeah? Yes, probably. We don't know for sure, but I guess he would know that I'm going to drop it right now. But does that affect my decision to pick this up? No, it doesn't. I mean, God knows that I'm going to pick this up but did God compel me to pick this up? Or did God compel me to pick this up right now? So that is, you need to understand when we say free will, what do you mean by free will? Does God interfere? Does God decide for us whatever we need to do? Does God know that what we're going to do? Yes, of course, but God doesn't determine what we're going to decide to do, okay? Okay, that is totally up to us whether we, so going back to the theological aspect of it, so God knows whether we're going to be disbelievers or we're going to be believers. Okay, there is also something which we probably don't have any control over, but also God gave us the free will to decide as to whether you want to be a believer or disbeliever. So again, this goes again to, what do you mean by free will, actually? Yeah, that's all. Okay, so are you done? So free will means one thing it would mean and tell us that you have the ability to do otherwise in the past, which I already showed why if God was omniscient, you wouldn't be able to, right? But what's really funny is I asked you, can God be wrong? Which would mean he's not omniscient if he can be wrong. Why would God be wrong? Yes, sir, I didn't interrupt you. I let you go on for a long time. I'm not finished. You keep interrupting me, but I don't mind, it's okay. You said that God, I said, can God be wrong? Can God be wrong? And you said, yes, he can be wrong. So what's happened here is you're abandoning your own- I didn't say that. I didn't say that. You're putting what he's talking about. Yes, you did. No, I didn't. No, I didn't. Yeah, you did say God can be wrong. So I'm gonna make a video of you saying that. I didn't say God can be wrong or God can be wrong. I'm gonna put the clip of you saying that next to this, and you're gonna look so stupid. And you can find it on my channel, YouTube Godless Girl, that it'll be up in a few days. Yeah, go ahead. You're a clown, sir. Speaking of which, when you two are feel like you've done questioning each other, we will move into closing statements and then the Q and A. So, if you feel like you've gotten your points through. I don't think I got through to that. I just wanna, well, we're doing our closing statements. Yeah, we can do our closing statements. Well, if that sounds fantastic. In that case, let's not only have a closing statement, but tell us what you got going on in the interwebs. What's that, what's the interval? Oh, as in, what do you feel free to chill? What is your channel? What you got going on to share for people to go to? Anything you would like, the closing statement, the floor is yours if you would like, Godless. Oh, okay. Yeah, so what happened at the very end there was when he said, yes, God can be wrong, he not only fell during this debate to defend there being evidence for God, but he even at the very end abandoned his own theology because he was so beaten down by me, denying God's omniscience. So what happened here tonight is I destroyed all this, the baby's crying. Okay. Sorry. I destroyed all of his supposed arguments. They weren't even arguments, they were mostly just claims, but I did show the error in reasoning. And then I put up all my own arguments and he was just like, oh, let's, like I defeated him on it with everyone because he just kept being like, oh, let's move on to the next one, let's move on to the next one. Like on every, you were humiliated and destroyed on every single thing tonight, all of the supposed evidence you presented and all of my arguments, I won each of those little battles, I won every one of them. And he let, oh, I just put the puzzles up, put all my logical fallacies together into a big puzzle and then you'll get God. And what do I got going on on my channel? I didn't post anything for a year. I just recently started posting videos. Again, Clubhouse is a terrible, awful platform, but that's where I've been because that's where my friends are on the internet. So that's where you can find me in active and voice chat. Oh, thank you. Thank you so very much. Welcome to my YouTube channels in the description. Sorry, go ahead. No, that's right. The link to Godless Girls YouTube is in the description below and it's great to have you back on modern day debate. And all right, before we get into the Q and A, the Muslim apologists, what you got going on and what are your final thoughts? Well, to summarize this discussion, unfortunately, I think Godless didn't get quite get the philosophical side, the Islamic position on many things because she's looking at it from the lenses of the Western liberal secular philosophy position. So of course she has this idea that, you know, whatever that happens on, you know, for example, like the problem of evil, trials and tribulations affecting God's all good, all omnipotent, all omniberevolent. Okay, so that is, for me, that's a fallacy in itself from the lenses of an Islamic perspective. Also, she did not address the question as to whether, you know, creation appears out of nowhere. I mean, who created, why the creation, why a tree is a tree? If there's nothing, if there's no one, there's no power, which created, which, you know, cause the tree to exist. So she did not address this. All she did is this logical fallacy, this logical fallacy, that this is a problem, that is a problem. I mean, she did not answer the question. For me, it's more, I mean, maybe it's because of her weapon show, her worldview, which, you know, causes her to say this and I excuse her for that and I forgive her for that. And, well, there are many things which I explain. Like, for example, the concept of religio naturalis, the innate understanding of God. She just dismisses this, okay? She just says that this is a fallacy. I mean, without explaining why is it a fallacy, okay? So for me, this is, well, if you want to play fallacy, then I would say that's an appeal to emotionalism, but I'm not going to do that. I don't come here to win or lose. She keeps boasting, oh, I won, I've won. You, me, meaning me, have not answered any of my questions. That's why she comes here with the mindset to win. I don't come here with the mindset to defeat or to bash down the opponent. No, there's not my intention at all. My presence here is to present the Islamic position, my position as a Muslim, as to the existence, evidence for the existence of God. Whether you want to accept it or not, that is up to you. Okay, that is totally your choice. That is part of your free will. So anyway, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity. Thank you, Godless, for having me. Thank you, Amy. And my channel is the Muslim Apologist. Okay, I'm not, I'm wearing a logo of my channel. Okay, you can see that. That's the logo. Okay, so I hope that you will come to the channel and hope to see you again. Thank you very much. Thank you so very much, the Muslim Apologist. Once again, both of our fantastic debaters, channels are in the description below. And with that, we are going to move into about 35 minutes of Q and A. So if you want to make sure that your question is asked to our wonderful interlocutors, make sure to send in those super chats. But, the first question, $5 from Notion Slave. Does he have any degree in Islamic Studies or Philosophy? What's the point? Also, the lady seems like she's on a very up type of, said to love. No, no, no. Okay. Do you want me to answer that? Yes, I probably shouldn't read adhabatum. So we're sending love. Oh, I don't mind. If you want to read insults to me, that's, I love, most of my followers are actually people who hate me, so you can read them. But we love you. And I can also answer the question for him. Obviously not. He doesn't have any degree in Islam or Philosophy. Oh my God. So you're interrupting me again, see? This is the problem with you. Okay, I was going to answer that. Okay. Basically it's this. My background is totally secular. Okay. I have, you would say an advanced diploma in IT. Okay. I'm not from a religious background. That being said, I'm actually, I've already undergone several courses related to Islamic Studies. I've read many books on Islamic Studies, Islamic Philosophy, et cetera. And I'm actually preparing myself for a degree in Islamic Studies, which should come in this fall, right? I mean fall in your area. Okay. So basically November, December. So I'm actually taking up an Islamic degree. I'm also undergoing several training studies in Islam as well. So yeah, so that's my answer. Thank you so very much. And then a $5 super chat from Mark Reed. What is up? Appeal to your heart. What kind of evidence is that my heart pumps blood around my body? What does yours do, mate? I think that question's for the Muslim, right? I believe so. I think that my answer would be it's the same as yours, the heart pumping throughout my body. Why would that be even an issue? I don't understand. And all right, sending love. And then a $5 super chat from Ozine Talks. Where is the computer mouse tree if it's less complex and so easy for God? Did you say that question was from Christian Prince? The last one was from Mark Reed. This one is from Ozine Talks. Oh, okay. Was the question for me? So the question is, where is the computer mouse tree if it's less complex and so easy for God? I think that is really reasonable. I don't understand the question. Does that make any sense to you? I don't really get it either, but I think he or she is trying to insinuate that God, if God is so powerful and all created, why is there no computer tree? I think that's what is trying to insinuate, but the answer is very simple. Why would God want to delve into such minor details? I mean, that doesn't mean that God will not create, it's not able to do something like that, but that being said, God doesn't, God basically, I mean, the computer tree is not going to appear out of nowhere. There has to be a cause and effect. It has to be within laws, the rules of the universe. So that is basically it, all right? Okay. Thank you, Ozine Talks. In fact, we got a chain here from Ozine Talks, sending so much love and thank you for the support. He's sending in a comment for his seventh months as Extra Juicy. That's right. You can become a fantastic channel member for a whole bunch of fun badges and emojis, but his comment is falsify the cyclical universe model and come back. I don't know what that model is. I don't even know if that was for me. And mean anything to you Muslim apologists and Ozine, if you don't feel or anyone feels like their comment didn't get a response or wasn't clarified, feel free to send in another question. But yes, going three, going two, going one, moving to Ozine Talks for another $10. And he also had clarification on that one, this one, the last one. Universal religious experiences without monotheistic tyranny led to polytheism and pantheism, not Allah, just because we evolved to want to understand the world around us isn't proof of a God. Do you want me to answer that? Yes. And I think most of his now that I'm reinterpreting them, they seem to be for you the Muslim apologists. No, okay, all right. So basically it's like this, all right. So from the perspective of Islam, again I'm talking about the perspective of Islam, we believe that there's always been one God, okay. God sent his prophet Adam, the first human being to earth and his progeny to worship the one true God. But over time, over millennia and millennia and millennia, man became corrupted, okay. Man corrupt the true one true religion of God and put into it innovations and all kinds of deviances into the religion of the one true God. Hence why you see there are multiple religions in the world today, okay. So for us Muslims, Islam is not a new religion that just appeared in sixth century Arabia. We believe as Muslims, Islam was the primordial religion right from the beginning of time, okay. So this is something, again, did you need to look at this from the Islamic dancers to understand this. So monotheism is the primordial religion and polytheism, pantheism, et cetera, is the result of this corruption from monotheism. But monotheism has always been the true religion of the one true God. Thank you so very much. And a $2 super chat from Joe Schwartz. Joe Schwartz, this is a reverent question of the day, but sending so much. What is your favorite video game for both? Mods, somebody is writing the N word in chat. We are live chat. Oh never mind, they got a message deleted. Sorry. Sending so much love to our mods and... Do you want me to answer that? The games that I played? Sure, what's your favorite video game? If you want, if you don't have one or don't want to answer? Yeah, sure, yeah, sure. I do, I do. I do have a couple right now. I'm actually playing Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order and Elden Ring. And also I'm installing Warhammer 3 and trying to play that as well. So, but because of my time, limitations with work and so on. So I don't get to enjoy this very much, yeah. Thank you so very much. Oh, Godless, you can have a chance if you don't. Oh, the question is what video games do I play? That was the question. Oh, I don't play video games. I used to when I was a teenager, play like all the Nintendo games, but not anymore. Sounds good, sending love, Joe. And then a $5 super chat from Coffee Mom. The debate title is Evidence for God. So, Muslim Apologists, do you have any evidence, question mark? Any evidence at all that is not a logical fallacy? Wasn't that what I presented for the past one hour or so? Why do I need to repeat myself? Oh, so it was not. That's your opinion, but you know, that doesn't prove anything. Yeah, your opinion doesn't really count, right? Send in so much love, the spice is real. Minnesota NFTs, $5, tagging me. Says, not sure if the ad hominem attacks making this a productive debate. Would any of you like to? Oh, yeah, yeah, I'll address that. So I love when idiots are so stupid that they accuse me of an ad hominem attack because they're just misunderstanding what an ad hominem is. What's the name of the person that said that? We're about to put them into witness protection, but it was Minnesota NFTs. Send in love, thank you for the support. What an ad hominem is, is when you dismiss somebody's argument in, because by attacking their character. So if you address the arguments and then call them a retard or whatever, that wouldn't be an ad hominem. And if you're just in conversation, if you're just like saying an insult, that's also not an ad hominem if they haven't given an argument. So Minnesota, you see, I just addressed what you said and told you why you were wrong. So now right now I'm not committing an ad hominem when I call you a super retarded asinine moronic fool for misunderstanding what an ad hominem is. Sending so much love and unless Muslim apologists has a comment, we are going to keep on going for a $5 super chat from pro debates. Can he be specific about the training studies in Islam? He's going through, question mark. Where are these through? What courses? Please be specific. The answer is no, because I think this is something, a private matter between me and the university. That's all. Thank you and send in love pro debates and $5 super chat from Marshall Samford. Does he have any evidence whatsoever that makes Islam more likely than naturalism? Well, I guess that will be a separate debate because this is about evidence for God. So I've tried to make it more general. So if you want specifics about why Islam is more true than naturalism or why Islam is more true than this or more true than that, then that will be a separate debate. I wouldn't get into it. And all right, we're going to move into a few regular questions, but if you want yours, move to the front of the line, feel free to send in the super chats and we appreciate the support. But from C-Science film for Godless Girl, do you believe a universe could exist where consciousness doesn't exist? This universe didn't have to be made to support conscious life. Why do you suppose it does? Well, because it supported a minute and I'm conscious. So therefore I guess it supports consciousness, whatever. I think consciousness arises, but yeah, I do think it's possible for a universe to exist without consciousness. I think actually there used to exist our universe before there was consciousness. So it already has been the case. Question and thank you C-Science from Pigly Pig, Swill Bucket. How do the debaters define evidence? Usually evidence is used to be like empirical support for a hypothesis, empirical, meaning like something physical out in the world, but it can also mean like if you have an argument, like a prior argument, which wouldn't be empirical evidence, but it would still be a sufficient reason to believe in a proposition. And if you wanted to answer an observation, that would be an observation that would be supportive of a hypothesis. I must apologize, I think it was for both if you wanted to answer. Well, I think my answer would be similar to hers, but I also add the element of not just from logic alone, but also from witnessing, from experience, from seeing what you believe, seeing is believing, right? And also from deep within your heart as well, in the case of God, you're appealed to the religious naturalist, so it's all these factors combined, okay? It's not just one singular reasoning, just from logic alone. No, you can't just define God by just reason alone, okay? There's so many other factors that come into play, right? So this is my understanding of evidence. Thank you both. And at what? Sun sits under Allah's throne at night, so when is it night on a globe? Oh my God, this must be an 80s or something asking this question. So basically this hadith is talking about metaphysical experience, okay? You can't define, you can't explain metaphysical experience or metaphysical description from the perspective of human sciences, okay? So my answer is that it's a metaphysical thing. We can't understand, we can't comprehend it, so there's no one can give you an answer from science, because the purpose of science is not to give a metaphysical answer, that's pretty much it, yeah? Woo-hoo! And question from Ms. Nell? Amy, if God exists, then why get he get rid of the damn talking snake from the Garden of Eden? I'll try, trying to PG rate that. If God exists, then why can't he get rid of the talking snake from the Garden of Eden? Was that question meant for me? I believe so. In Islam we don't believe the biblical narrative, I mean we know about the fall of Adam and so on, but it's a totally different narration. We don't have a talking snake in the Garden, okay? So I'm sorry, but that is probably a Jewish Christian understanding of what happened at the Garden of Eden, but it's not an Islamic one, so I can't answer that. Fantastic, $10 question coming in from a Greek select, Panda? Sending love, Panda. Question for Godless girl? Good to have you back. Why do you think God's mind could not create the universe when God is necessarily all-powerful? I don't know if you know what necessarily means, necessarily means something exists, necessarily means it exists in all possible worlds, so. But I already gave my argument for why a mind couldn't create the universe if we take time to begin at the beginning of the universe, because then the mind would have to exist prior to time, and prior is temporal, so it's really just gibberish. Thank you, and $10 super chat from Tim Pryor. I'm going to take a few hundred Bibles and replace the word God with Tim. Then, in 3,000 years, I'll be God. Come on, people, the Bible is just a book written by man. I... You want me to answer that? So here's what I'll do for Tim, because I think he's trying to fill in for any holy text. What would you say to that to someone who said the same of the Koran? Well, first of all, of course, I agree with him that the Bible is man-made. We Muslims, we reject the Bible, okay? So as for the Koran, we Muslims believe that the Koran itself is a miracle from God. Basically, as the Christians believe that Jesus was the Word made flesh, we believe as Muslims that the Koran is the Word made book, okay? So that's basically... So to say that the Koran for us is divine, it has divine origin, so you can't compare it to the Bible or any other holy texts. So that is basically my answer, yeah. All right, thank you so very much. We have a few more questions, and then we're going to wrap up. So like I said, send those super chats in. If you want to get your burning desires answered now, but Gina from Cologne, have you ever considered... Two, Godless, have you ever considered debating in speakers' corner in London, you would shrivel the balls of the most violent Muslim mobs there and make them run. You go, girl, got a fan out of it. Oh, I haven't really considered it, but I've fantasized about it. If I ever make my way over to Europe, I will go to speakers' corner, but if anybody wants to pay for my plane ticket over there, I will be happy to go, and I will act the exact same way I do online in real life. I'll fucking get in their face. It will be so entertaining post those videos of me getting in people's face as speakers' corner. That would be amazing. So no, I haven't considered it, just fantasized about it. Mm-hmm. From... Part of go fund me for the plane ticket to Europe. From pro debates, can he at least tell us what he's studying? He doesn't have to tell us the university, not trying to be rude. What are you... And once again, feel free to answer or not, cause don't wanna... What did he say? No, I don't think so, yeah. Oh, it was for him, sorry. Yeah, yeah, it was for me. Yeah, the answer is simple. I'm sorry, but I'm not divulging any details for now because it's still an ongoing process. So I don't want to presume the university, all right? Okay. And all right, the last question. I see him having so much fun in chat or sending love to your way or Yahweh. I'm going to use you as a platform. Well, first of all, he's saying, are you ready to debate the seven day cycle argument for the Hebrew God Godless? And I think I know what her answer would be and I'm going to answer that for everyone by saying that if anyone out there has debate experience and you are looking for a platform, feel free to check out the about page in modern day debate and we would always love to have more performers. And all right, with that, I do hope that you all had a fantastic night tonight on modern day debate. We are a neutral platform, welcoming everybody from all walks of life. If you enjoyed the show, please don't forget to like and subscribe, including tonight's debate on evidence for God with our debaters, Godless Girl and the Muslim Apologist. Plus, if you liked what any of our guests had to say, all of their links are in the description below if you're looking for even more fun after the show. Feel free to check out the MDD Discord and with that, I am Amy Newman with modern day debate. We hope you keep on having great conversations, discussions and debates. Good night, everyone.