 I'm sorry Andrew Thompson won't be very proud of you if you go back here about the stroke of 42. Thank you very much indeed. We're moving into a new area of discussions. This first session this afternoon and language values meanings. Language, of course, is what we use to talk about heritage and to pass legislation about it, to define it. I'm thinking of the small interest in the words that we use regularly, nationally, for example. What do we mean by that? When in power with it, sometimes we're talking about union alone, and other times we're afraid it's often about the UK. I remember what's early, not long after the last National General Election, and I knew then that culture and management are used to the word old, and you can hear the tumbleweed flying down the streets. Because everything has to be new. I'm pleased that part of the difficulty that we have today, politically, is to do with someone and where they're on and around there. Significance calls for language in which to express it and define it is a session following this that we're looking at that. And then, going back to this morning, our political masters, there's a contraction of phrase we had several times, if we had a new addiction, would we do it better? Is it because we're using old words and old ways, or was it in clumsy or less sophisticated ways that we're having past the difficulty that we've got? So to help us discuss those things and to draw you in to discussing them, this is as much your session as ours, and you've got some suggested questions and issues we might be exploring in the air, and we've got four panists to help us. And in order, you can read their biography and visit the programmes, and I'd like them to repeat what's on the page here. We welcome you, Graham Fairclough, from Newcastle University, Catelyn Dysilwyr from the University of Exeter, historical geographer, cultural geographer, Matthew Slocum from the Society for Protection and Management Buildings, Alan Baxter from everywhere. We thought just to get the ground rules for having that panist if you're comfortable with them when you've got them, let me know. Short opening presentations, two, three, four minutes from our panel. What's the best interaction between them? Then interaction with and from you, please, questions, comments. It may well be that the panel will want some space further on in the sessions with developed ideas or to react to things, and at the end, if time allows, and if we seem to have covered a manageable area, I'll be inviting them to read the pictures or do well on the things that they're taking away from us, and then we'll be ready to encourage. If you're comfortable with that as a layout, several requests, please, in the choreography when we come to the discussion and questions, which is that the colleagues at the back find it difficult to hear people at the front if they're not using the microphone, can we therefore use the microphone and can we mention that it is kept switch on? I'm sure that you'll be comfortable with that. Without more ado, I'm going to invite Graham, to leave this off. Finally, more ado, we've done proud to the 20th century this morning that maybe it's built towards the present and the future and what you're about to hear. Great. Good afternoon. I think if it's words that we want to talk about in this session, then it's a very good word to talk about. We all use it all the time, as if it's a very simple term. But I think it's one of the words that's now almost impossible to use without some sort of definition. It's the name that's over the word that my hand has been resupporting for the last 100 years, of the years. It's got a pattern of using the views that I would not like to guess how many different meanings of the word heritage are lurking in the minds of people in this room. There's a special assumption, which I think we saw this morning, that it's actually about special things, and what I want to say in two minutes is that I think it's about anything which goes on under the pot where you can't get everything so we'll come out in a minute. But then the weird thing that that part of the world when it comes into that head when word heritage is spoken is that most of the time I'll say that most of us act as though we don't realize that. As though I'm one of the users of word heritage and I don't understand the same thing like I really do not think that's the case. I think if you capture my type this morning you would be able to think of lots of examples of what the way heritage is used and if you put a different spin over them or a sentence from a different word, the weird thing that's been said by the students of our new conservation professions we can know what you claim to own the area or even to be managing or policing the area we have a share of this and we have to negotiate it with many other people for all people decreasing on any people that we might have believing that experts are not an expert that experts in all sorts of fields sometimes experts simply being local to the area suddenly saying you have your type of heritage and it's often come to my mind over the years if you put it way back to avoiding problems that if we look at the public support for our heritage, the heritage that we think is important that probably requires in our support for public heritage cases that they think is important and being nearly all by let's do systems only through the first of those two things they did not know the public but they understood that type of building is important what we deserve whatever is the other context and we don't ask people what they think is important in the other context or maybe the important thing on timing it's also easy to think about heritage and heritage attention as something we can naturally and inevitably evolve over the past century and above and that it's here to stay because of the sense of the wide and the old progressive imagination of things that were backwards and things that were changed were absolutely unternal and I thought everything else heritage arose from some specific circumstances with about some of these dating between liberal ideas and manatech in the early 20th century the link in the 60s and 70s between what we might call stasis and heritage was about a lot of our key that dating in the 60s and 70s comes out of that period some of the words the 70s and 80s where they delaying the ladies to find a bit of the barbed state settlement just a little bit of food at 79 it just squeed in thought it doesn't came down so heritage is starting to be contingent it depends on the context you might say it's fashion but that will happen next and I would say we've already in transition to very different contexts so the question being I thought that the microscope wouldn't have to remain necessarily still the same as a successful paradigm for the 20th century written in the way that the party was in the 50s and 60s and became an incentive for what's met in that role of sequence and we can see heritage changing in many ways it changes us what we might call the landscape paradigm the way we look in the world through the section of landscape that people lend and filter and that landscape paradigm we see heritage differently we see that the skin of the heritage doesn't have to be changed it has to be explored about between external and external measures of context and importance the boundaries of heritage for a long time hasn't really made a change there's a focus on in time heritage but there's also a realisation in some quarters that all heritage is in time and more because the value we see in heritage are not paid physically and the value of heritage is in time no matter how solid the destiny might be improving then there's the change of society becoming more diverse and on the issue that link between heritage and nationality which is quite important to the link that link is dissolving because we no longer have a single nation of belonging of belief of values that come on the same with nationality we may talk about national collection but I'm not sure how in the 21st century we can have a national collection you're out here I think I can say the old selectivity we've come to an idea that we had to select because we couldn't afford to take everything so we selected that's how the slight divisions have been in those 50 or 80 years in that people have come to see the selection not just being in that country but in those resources was this something real and that we asked that thing which is important to the left arm and heritage has almost been by now by the selection so it's a certain argument we don't have a thing that's something important before the heritage that the heritage has come to think before the heritage and it misses out the vast majority of people that have paid environments on that stage and then the issue of seeing heritage and the process doesn't follow on that basis and it follows it's necessary not to say I don't know why it likes its ability you never can sustain what you're always moving towards it and then finally it's changing it's changing the work of ideas such as the argument in the follow-up on the value of the cultural heritage and the sighting not to say in the past what you usually live with in the past except when it's there or when it's there our government of course like all the rest of the countries they don't see any need to adopt that heritage or convention they think it's for the heritage or the heritage or the heritage processes that are sophisticated that we don't need and Simon tagged us in the case but today we are to reflect on the cultural heritage of the heritage and that I think is a part of our convention it's about seeing what everybody wishes their heritage to be it just depends on that question that question of how to be a heritage better than the people depends on which heritage it holds depends on which people I think my answer to that question is in our notes is that the purpose of the right word anyway we don't assume that the purpose of heritage is simply there is everything that's around a heritage I don't really go along with the definition of heritage those things we value which they are I think that's the most latest state in the process heritage is just everything that we don't have to read that to decide what to do with it and sometimes there's variation sometimes there's dysfunction as we've heard today that there can be gain from destruction whether they're used in arch the two mothers how well known in the world that those two status of mothers that children are destroying are likely to know about the meaning that their heritage was in one part of Europe so a heritage is happening to some of that a heritage is copyrighted simply there and we have to deal with it and we're only one group of people dealing with it and the way we deal with it are whether experts are much interested or not disengaged people to deal with their heritage they use all their heritage and the word heritage and what I mean is what you have to do with this is that it should not become synonymous with heritage protection or the heritage and that's of course by heritage you mean something different to anything that you ask me right well charging stuff I'm thinking to myself that the next time I'll just on those so we've captured them and we'll be coming back to them when we've heard from the other cameras but we're going to move now to a matter of slope from the society of heritage protection buildings who are proselytising and active in the days of the 19th century and still are on those out to the centuries of time to the next meeting like this we're still welcoming you Matthew Thank you for doing an afternoon and I'll apologise out front for giving you a very scary minding perspective on that but I hope it's going to be useful that link from the earliest point of hearing there this morning right through into the present and then on to our work and right into the future so there's continuity there I think that means something to them the land review conservation and the values attached to it have always held huge importance for the SPLB in fact we've spent 136 years now correcting people who've called us the society to the preservation of ancient buildings with a bank protection not preservation it's a subtle difference that often isn't appreciative but protection is very much a bank value judgment I think being selective whereas preservation implies a sort of indiscriminate protection is where we're coming from as we said sometimes we also have to discourage people from calling us the society to the prevention these days we're also somewhat the ladies with the word ancient which is still very much part of our title somehow has become an unfashionable word I think and it was very talent coming to hear this morning it's all the 1913 act and the fact that then ancient was a really strong attribute it was a thing that was more likely to save you from demolition from being somewhat normal and therefore uninteresting I think that whole argument was turned around now so ancient is something a bit boring whereas all recent things nowadays attract a lot more interest anyway we live with our title of ancient but actually the SBAB has always been about all times communal styles and somehow we have to go across the fact that ancient can encapsulate many things perhaps of course we only need a rebranding in the way of the English heritage after my own blood but the SBAB's continuity thing means that we have to stick with that name and those words come one way so that language can be quite a burden to the SBAB but its precise use has also been very very important to us the words for us in conservation stem from William Morrison Manifesto of 1877 and that's really important I think because for the first time that set down a language and a value system that should guide anyone dealing with the historical environment now you may love it you may hate it but the Manifesto remains a reference point I think for everything that's happened there after and it's worth reading again if you haven't read it recently I mean it's all basically it's full of passion and poetry about the historical environment it's the thing you never get from reasonable current guidance or policy documents so the Manifesto is from the heart and that is a vital thing for us it has phrases like scale off the care by daily care that sums up a whole maintenance in our view and in our role the Manifesto's central theme of course is the struggle for the soul of conservation and that is the battle between the care and restoration and in SVAE company now the word restoration is still only used in that curative sense as John Ruskin said the thing is a lie beginning to end so what I'd ask you to do is at least if you're using the term restoration over these couple of days do use it in that literal sense and think about it as true and true meaning so even though SVAE ideas I would argue are firmly embedded in the legislation that we have since 1877 I have to admit that this word restoration is a problem for us because as you all know it's now used as a shorthand for any kind of work to restore and build it but think of it as real meaning that's all I'm on now I really shouldn't be strained the subject matter of the next session this afternoon so I'll offer an apology to my favour for the next bit but it's impossible to talk about an SVAE view of meaning, language and values without touching on this difficult relationship between building fabric and the whole new concept of significance for the SVAE fabric has always been preeminent because it embodies the history and the development of buildings and all the stories that flow from it if you like it's for us a primary source it's the one that you go back to if you want to reassess your interpretation and significance is a problem because by recognising a range of values beyond fabric it then can push press to the fabric itself just as an illustration and because we've started talking about international themes already today real opposite of the SVAE view came to me about a year ago when I was I met a heritage professional visiting from New Zealand and she put to me the view that place is everything and fabric is nothing think about that too that's a really extreme challenge in the conservations as we've known it I think maybe in New Zealand and you've lived through the kind of things that have happened in Christchurch it is earthquake that's a realistic perspective but where we come from where the whole world of the country is full of these layers of history and change I think it will be quite a rather dangerous position to say what we have real problems is the idea of enhancement enhancement is another word creeping in it's in the end of the year now and you'll never enhancement of significance seems to us like an opening of the door to the idea of restoration the idea of a document can be improved final thought then in this room a few months ago there was a very interesting discussion about heritage sector and about political manifestos in the future it was a discussion hosted by Heritage of Arts it was very useful but it came through a sense that maybe we should be qualifying our own language need perhaps our values lead to them in order to be relevant to the growth of their political agenda over the present time this again is a little bit borrowing to someone from an SPAB background a good thing about the SPAB is that having been around so long it's possible to see how people politicians even economic circumstances can't go and we would very often argue that taking the long term view is better so I'll go back to Maurice's words again his advice is we are only trustees for those that have come after us and I think whatever we feel about language and values today it's worth keeping a view on where we've come from but also those who are going to be coming later so thank you very much indeed it's about to be very nice, complimentary contribution to the world with which we look at what surely has to be a fundamental point for this meeting which is that who speaks for posterity is not quite a lot of what we're about, it's not about who isn't about us and it's about the future and not just the next generation who is speaking for posterity and others who vote for posterity on that option our next contribution is coming from Cretan De Silva who is a senior lecturer at the University of Exeter we call him all he was a cultural geographer and again we'll give this yet more things to discuss in a few minutes time Cretan Thank you It's an honour to speak to this audience and also I feel like some of the points I want to make are probably written into the dangerous territory it's just an invention so I have a feeling that I have to be quite brave here but the question that I want to address that we will present in ways for this ground table is the third one How do we balance the respect to the past and the desire to defend the law sort of important movements in buildings where there is a sense of loss that requires an ability to change Now we're going to begin by perhaps adding to this wrong hand saying that heritage practice assumes a relationship between the stability of cultural artifacts and the persistence of cultural memory the structure threatened by decay or collapse has proceeded to be at risk of ceasing to function as an anchor for memory the recognition or designation of value leads almost always through tennis and material stabilization but this relationship is not always so clear cut and there's a long tradition of ruin appreciation that extends into the present in the debates that we've just been hearing about and influence the development of modern conservation practice there was a distinct modern argument that the cultural significance of aging and decay and the potential for value to learn from sometimes from the loss of material integrity I don't need to remind you all this that Morrison has been both asserted that these some selected instances of gradual and erasable deterioration was preferable to erasable restoration A few decades later when the ancient monuments act was being drafted and debated scholars on comments such as George Simel argued that the relationship between structural innovation and environmental process could be instructive and enlightening in its own right and worthy of study from a cultural as well as a scientific perspective these thinkers proposed an engagement with the material past premised not on governance or protection but on instability and transience I'm going to wager that these historical perspectives do have a resonance in the contemporary debates on cultural memory particularly as it becomes increasingly difficult to find the resources to preserve all the elements of the past that seem worthy of attention and as accelerated environmental change threatens to undermine conservation work carried out over the last century and more I wonder if it's time to rethink the way that we care for certain elements of the heritage environment and to experiment a little bit more boldly with approaches that attempt to sustain the practice of cultural remembrance and materials that are allowed to change or even disappear is it possible or desirable to have a conversation about the value sometimes of letting go rather than hanging on there are some example of shifting practice which I have the opportunity to explore through my work with the National Trust after the last several years on a series of research projects I've mostly been working with them at dozens of coastal heritage sites around the British coast where they're preparing for the destabilizing effects of the global rise and storm surges and for the past eight years at least it's been openly managing and changing coastline and working with rather than against natural process at these sites the work that I've been doing the trust is trying to place future change in the context of the past landscape process and to develop narrative tools to allow people to imagine the laws of harbours and sea walls light houses and settlements on the scale of individual buildings and the trust policy of continuing rumination where is this distinction in the sites cultural and natural heritage resources in the forward nuclear weapons testing facility at the site and in Germany the landscape parts of the world need to highlight rather than attempt to hide the rust and the colonization of post-industrial spaces what sets the sites I've just mentioned apart from other sites but for maintenance of the nine left taking their toll and we've heard about the decision that's made to deliberately accommodate the environmental process to learn from it and find meaning in it many visitors to these places appreciate the aesthetic and imaginative possibilities they offer and the opportunity for an alternative engagement with the material past the sadness of the past in these places as well and that has to be acknowledged and respected as places reach the end of their lifespan also have overnest the community in the local areas planning a wake century lighthouse as the senior claims the land is sand on I think that such approach is selectively and cautiously applied and I'm totally aware of a lot of the issues and raising such a proposal but that they may provide one way we can work towards balancing our desire to save in the hope and acceptance of loss and change I'm going to give the last word to Elizabeth Bishop who wrote the art of using is not too hard to master though it may look like thank you very much indeed for a very thoughtful and totalist in another direction that will be coming back to changing the cave to lesson of the girl originally this has been made in the work of this is starting what this is originally an idea and I think that anything that I can very useful to the world in what's been my interests is enjoying things together I have a very healthy experience in some of what the speciality has become very dominant in our culture our education and I sense it's gone too far especially in the political classes people on our alas specialist has just been politicians and that's a very dangerous thing so I would be very glad to see more evidence around to talk about these things if you're very hard to talk about actually lots being chewed with that hard definition I know that's our job today but it's actually quite dangerous because it moves on all the time but one of the points that I wanted to offer to begin with is an area of interest that I find is pretty high on my agenda which is on how times and cities work and one of the really enjoyable extraordinary things I have is with a panel set up by the Church called the Urban Panel different times or whatever England have had problems less times have problems these days and we didn't tell them what did we get for two days and we had an absolute agreement of action created by the English-language offices and of course many of these times of the Church are full of wonderful historic buildings but they are not just the only part of our interest it's about a whole setting of time and it's a life force which we don't know how to define it's where this whole area of what it's called is about it's actually much more than the tangible physical things it's been touched on already today but it's actually about the nature of how we as humans live together and here's how it turned out I'm very interesting about Tauwdy cities where I read one of the great books that I remember reading about seven times the city of history and here we are with this tremendous change that's happening now in major cities all over the world it's a very, very massive change taking place particularly in this country of course to London where the population is gained by a medium in the generation a greater number perhaps some is ever growing in numbers along the percentage and it changes the nature of what we care about so it's actually taking our whole interests beyond the actual conventional institutional focus and really getting to grips with what we as humans do with our lives in the towns and cities of particular events are the key for our own culture to rub shoulders with each other in the streets of one of the particular issues that I find very interesting but it doesn't come out of what I was reading it is in London that has also happened to a lesser extent today in how we build there are several major parts of London now which are changing rapidly from the placement of all not yesterday where you see the sky two places with great serid ranks of 12, 15 story sladlocks and people living in them who don't really connect with the street very very difficult to define in one years of mixed times to take its characterisation so what I'm interested in in this business of us being asked to define events I sense there's a whole world out there which we haven't yet got to grips with which is the challenge if you're looking for the lesser part of this conflict to move on to what really matters in the 21st century because this consolation of the last 100 years the great achievements of many people in this role of our predecessors too consolation and heritage has happened all the time all the time it was five years ago and it's actually now a different range of molecules that's cropped up in the front of this challenge and to think about these much less intangible issues so I have to say it's quite difficult to define more of these times what would it be good to describe today or more to actually get to those things I think it would be Right but as to start us off just before the road you might have found can sort you and it's like it still has a tendency that it strikes any of you from what any of the others say that are you strongly agree with them all perhaps you would take this role perhaps see an area where you would like to hear explore further anybody want to leave it Matthew I was very interested in the idea those can come out of the folders those can come out of the folders just really I'm the international I'm the international particularly whether the way we protect the historical environment which is very much an involved thing part of the decades and the decades is now part of our heritage is the way we do things here something special or in fact truly you are reminded look to what comes in other places and learn and take on more I think there's a right of role so that it would be a role to discuss as a small illustration one of the earliest discussions I recall in the new heritage committee was over what to do with the kiosk at Goodrich Castle which was sort of silent opening side today because the kiosk itself was a piece of art and crafts would work and it had itself become historically interesting although the commercial part of the heritage wanted to something more commercial heritage heritage and anybody else would like to sort of cross cut on to start with if not then please do yourself, please join a guest Manifest Really interesting I suppose I just wanted to start by drawing two points final point about the nature of contemporary cities in Britain and is there something intangent about the nature of those cities that we might want to start protecting I recently went to Abu Dabi and I was so amazed at a city where pedestrian experience is not a feature of the city that those ones were whether tamed with the granted of pedestrian experience was something about being European and I wanted to draw that point in with your point about place I was a little disappointed that you thought that New Zealand's history of heritage was colonial the reason why New Zealand and Dandifredia lay such sore by place is because they have heritage which is even of them in style and that is their indigenous heritage so that is the reason why in the end of the day it was so developed to play to see our charter as a warm facet of the way in which they understand the significance and I'd like to argue that far from needing somewhere like the way you have a population of only thousands of years old that such an understanding place would also be incredibly applicable in the UK as well not least for trying to get to grips with things like the nature of our towns the nature of our high streets where we might want to think about managing and conserving something which is intangible and not just about Thank you very much I mean well the other program just to throw it at Thank you We will come to you if we are able to crystallise it Just to point out to ourselves perhaps that there is no reason why you should know about the your own history project in the Manchester it's a very interesting little history project how it happened and what it means there's no one to talk about it here There is a good saying and a good definition but I will respond to the course that understanding the research of the importance of place to the current populations is something which for some years has been called a certain conservation in the heritage processes in the UK and that has been it to the John Telling new territory which is only to the higher tier to the grand rating of one of all the forms of conservation series So it is a gift We do it, we do it Thank you Thank you More, yes please My question is really in response to Graham's presentation but it's a question randomly I was very heartened by the broad name for the definition of heritage it also made me wonder as well whether I can press you Graham to speak in defence of the word heritage and perhaps to give you another chance to say that you might have to think into the vision of this and that's history, why heritage and not history and you've already mentioned all of our histories Thank you How did the history Of course the heritage is a question of which how does heritage and items goes and which is what is going on because I don't know what that is I think we've all said that we've seen an enormous great achievement of the heritage community in every world and no one starts to disagree and I'm not suggesting that we start with those things just suggesting that those things are beginning to prove nothing of it or even now enough but there's certainly going to be institutions that are, I think I think that's one of the ways in which heritage mainly has been turned in the last 34-50 years times but have not been in the middle age system because heritage what time it seems to learn about and the collectivation for no reason but not one of them turning to this temptation tend to go to a place and only to work out individual buildings and those individual buildings or sites which we want to call them are defined not by their contribution to the place but by which are very valuable in the world but their externs of that is to do with our technology or to do with them or to do with national values of intentional value for our sites all of which are valuable but they miss out actually the one that would calculate public attention and create public relevance they miss out the confusion of that thing to the place and more importantly they miss out the confusion of other things that we would to think about if we don't think of it as it is on town in England whether this is going on not the most important thing in the main place or they're looking down but they tend not to be I think that's one of the things I'm trying to say that heritage needs to be looking at the local personal views of things it's one of the what I'm trying to make when I said that if you want to put this at law protecting our heritage in that language it's best to put sport heritage and yet time and time again local authorities and natural authorities are unable what needs to be of that quite often because of statutes and not because of their own predilections are unable to reach out and help the community to protect for example their cinema or their industry or their tricornt centre or whatever and I just think that the heritage deal has been very one sided it probably needs to be in the 90s and 70s but we're in the first century but it doesn't need to be in the last 90s as a history heritage you don't have to have to we'll just come back to that, lots of questions history may be what happened certainly we'll be trying to work out what happened but heritage is what's in the future heritage links past the future if it doesn't well there might be one we'll see before you speak so can I just get into the proof and just say one of the questions I think we might use to address before the end of this session it is very it is really impossible to have a the category which is ever changing the words change, the definitions change and yet it makes stable enough to use to have a collective conversation and if so I don't know if you can do to assist that so Chris been driven by the Church of Conservation I think my point for it is all now I think my perception has never changed to the public enthusiasm for heritage that's probably greater than ever so if you follow the media and the TV what's really changing where we're experiencing is the mould and power and resources of the bodies that have been used to running heritage in this country for the last 50 years and we are all Church of Conservation Trust in that we're all in a very different situation and no longer turning up to the heritage situation the colossal power and resources and experts we're in a more creative position so what we have to do is change I think it's what you're saying change the way we engage local people and communities with our own cause and that's where we have to find a new language and values that people really embrace and influence about us and then they will come forward our work on our behalf this is particularly true in churches but I think the role of the national body is still vital but it's a completely different one Thank you very much Paul, Kate and somebody else in that group it's very active group in that order Thank you Thanks I'm picking up on Graham's point again I think part of the problem is our own history of conservation which began with monuments extended to buildings and finally came to areas and back in the mid 80s who was talking or press house of the hierarchy of the legislation and the unified hierarchy therefore of importance that monuments have precedence of the buildings of the areas and I think part of this problem is that's not how a lot of people look at things landscapes are areas as perceived by people in landscape conventions people tend to start their areas and then the buildings, the monuments perhaps are compared with parts of that but parts of a bigger whole and so maybe we need to change our thinking because the residue of that hierarchical thinking is still very much in our language Thank you very much indeed for going across the case on the far side is the ban of red lines on maps and whether we believe in them or not there are two different trends running in this discussion one of which is that the challenge of what we deal with is constrained within minds or part of the character of the place of the whole but secondly there is the charge of language because I think that the language that we use has left us locked in isolation where isolated from one another where isolated from economics where isolated from social discussions about family and identity because we've got locked into this little bit of some monuments and red lines on maps and working in Australia at the moment where for all the discussion about bariatar and significance and I can talk about that separately there is a very constrained view which says it's about a few red lines on maps that we can genuinely ignore while dealing with covering assets in places so somehow my stop has always been to try and find a language for what we're talking about that enables us to connect with those wider debates about the economy, about the environment about society and also about culture because what I see is because we don't actually connect with them then what we do gets lost and ignored and seatings lose their character as Alan says I'm watching Sydney turn into a city called Slant it looks just like Dubai and it looks just like Singapore and it's incredible just like it's off London so we're losing identity we're losing the environmental value of existing buildings because we're not actually living in green arguments we're losing the social value of places because we're not making those line of connections so for some of us our language is keeping us from wider debates the other limited language that's an interesting challenge is having worked at the lottery and watched the environmental people the museums people the archives people, the libraries people the buildings people, the archaeologists and the landscape people use words differently and by using words differently connecting in any shape, size or form there's another language right there alright, thank you very much to challenge and all of us to just think about some of the things that Kate said there use the global modernisation tendency which raised ineffable consequences of global capitalism which is dealing with purely the conservation tendency is not going to have much to do with it and we need to face up to that place a point about isolations is interesting and actually using the same word in different ways so that even among ourselves we don't fully communicate some of them are pretty to a key thing to think about that so why do you think about that? thank you my question is in common because we try to address brands concern about better way of engaging with the sense of putting some of the community and I wonder where he feels that the labour of development plans is something that's just come into my mind because I'm involved in doing it for my own labour and it's one that really does involve our community starts from a sense of place and of course it raises the designations that Kate's being talking about it's not what's possible to say where this is being made but I apologise on my hands on some of this thank you I really can't play any expertise in labour I saw this thing coming and I'm not really involved in it it looked to me that every good idea was a matter of being flawed I love you on the beginnings is anyone else going to say that I'm the reason for having a name on a dance but I think it's a good name but I suspect that it's in the centre of another I say community because we're speaking of engaging people in their heritage which I think we should be trying to look at the question of what we can the straight people can engage us because we engage them it's just an outer an agenda with our operations and our interests but can we get people who love their conversations every day can we persuade them to somehow engage us in those conversations so in the centre we can call them or the community we can help them to be involved and saying let's engage the people isn't quite as in as that is our situation Matthew thank you I'll just come in quickly it's a number of mine but you have that really is one of my place it's about neighbourhood planning and there's an enthusiasm for natural architecture I don't feel this is our drunk art because we have the knowledge of the range of of construction plans around the country that actually many places is distinct and the more we can convey that knowledge people are involved in making a plan about what makes their locality distinct from the place up the road that has a different different genealogical basis then the more we become relevant and interested in use thank you what's interesting is the very recent history of the public engagement with the whole issue of heritage and you go back to say to the destruction of the use of art that they have just a folly of natural amenities which has been in numbers times very minor far sooner upon what they've been involved in objecting strongly to this but now there's a parallel of people out there who care everywhere about what they have in their place and what they've never done and it is our fault as professionals we've never really allowed people to be much more in control of their own place and I think this is where we need to recognise we have to it's great to have a enablement plan it's great to have all these community actions because then people learn more there's more encouragement by society not near enough to actually get that knowledge and help there and not just in hands of us refugees professionals and generally it has been an important decision just before you started just to try to capture the quality is in the air at the moment which is that when you're having that conversation with everybody else and with the Royal Deceptor we always try to do it with the two on our terms that's to say we use our words and our ways with our designations and our own framework as we sing from the grassroots local deception education secretary of the Institute of Start Building Consolition just firstly a word for Malcolm I'm not an expert on enablement plans but I certainly know a man who is an expert David Shepard is our chairman who is working with the calcium others and getting in the point actually Matthew made there is actually getting in the local communities persuading them and educating them on the value of their heritage to make them or at least allow them to have that which actually reflect that so that there's a lot of work going on on that particular area but it actually leads me to a slightly wider point and probably what we're talking about is one of language and definitions in terms the one I haven't mentioned already is that of management and actually that's the key I think Alan's mentioned changing cities, changing areas but it's the management of changing places that's really really worried about those other people who are involved in management changing for the maybe urban designers, architects, politicians it's where we should be looking rather than looking inwards so that's my sort of simple point on that and lastly just as a little point we also need to be having a bigger Matthew one way or another I just want to pick him up on one word he used was enhancement which he said you were a bit uncomfortable with might actually not be so uncomfortable with it, we all know the harm of the repair and restoration I will not go into that area I'm told it's hard to move but enhancement is one of those works which is in the planning acts as they are preserved or enhanced and it's the thing that goes on in making places all the time conservation areas maybe preserved or enhanced and we can all see those cases where the unfortunate I saw a building went and a perhaps very new contemporary building went up so maybe we should be a bit more aware of that enhancement and embrace it a little bit more as we deal with heritage Thank you very much for that deceptive point and also to just to draw your attention to what was growing in the beginning by enhancement which was that by heritage it's not how we bring to it to our perception of it as what it is as a sort of piece of physical kit and that is in the last 20 years that 20 years at full one of the 40 heritage sites that are absolutely mainstream because of change perceptions I'm going to set aside just to make a couple of things about place and modernisation and influencing the tomorrow the passing tomorrow I live in Seoul together with my work here I live in Seoul too and it's not just cities that are being modernised it's like small cities like Seoul Gwinn, Gwinn, Shamsgwinn which have become suburbanised and the characteristic of those historic towns on the suburbs of the outskirts is the density of population and housing the views across the countryside are sealed serum, barrels, the landscape historic landscape that's now becoming a place of my very high density housing cities they all look the same they all singularly improve it the three-story townhouses the small bits of garden all pushed in together but changing the character they all look the same all those towns now all look the same coming from a local people and I'm just interested in the way that as a body how would we influence the people who make the decisions people who are on councils who are approached by national house builders who come along with set templates of buildings that they are going to build on these areas and they are going to look at the pound reaction so which of course was a bit of a response to the mistakes of the past so it's not just those of them but how do we influence people to say that they've got a build to build a look in a local position and are we actually increasing this sort of stuff for what's going on? Well, here's something you might be interested in that's about to come with the trustee of Chelsea's and the institute of architecture there's this great thing that we set out because we know how little one involves the public head and we know how small it is to be respected so it was a wonderful magazine and on the schools there it was very roomy where about 50 different other tables on computers and 60 on how to sit on to go for a new school architecture of the building environment is not there as part of the public's knowledge and it's again coming back to us that there's staffs called it should be the best centre because it's brilliant and it's the same with other society's magazines we retain, we've got two in our whole relationship and yet what we're about is putting a link of how we operate as a similar society it's our contemporary heritage in every way the equivalent society that's actually pushed this more a society becoming losing their models they're losing their culture they're not able to expand on the science of society and this is why heritage might be the most and we don't give enough for that public perception Richard you've done I think there are at least two different conceptions going on so sorry if I get that basically we're talking about these different things I think a lot of the conceptions just have to do with that being actually people more of the the sort of attitudes that we have about this result is an important thing that we've also talked to a bit about actually talking to people of what they're responding to the resources it is and I've supported to mention that some of it comes to this now which is that I'm talking about sort of the sense of community of the projects sort of the sense of indigenous of the projects and I've dominated the discussion really in large part of the world in New Zealand, Australia Australia and America and in those countries people have been forced to actually engage deep in the attitudes of communities for so many communities of indigenous communities and that's been part of a painful experience to the professionals and the academics but it has actually also broken down the sort of practice we're talking about because as I say, when two discussions go on on how we can give the kids an interest to the service of public we do that things we have to give the kids and that's very important but we've also been grounded in particularly our different needs and we think also about how we respond to those issues that people do and it's in general about how they understand the resources Thank you very much We need to build a lovely building distinctively in the problem of all of our towns coming from the core ball where there's a lot of heritage and a lot of appreciation for that heritage granted but I think connecting with people connecting with their fundamental needs and so you can't build locally distinctively in those industries that already granted for example in Cornwall are alive and that's a huge undertaking and you can't put people in those houses unless you address issues around the fundamental inequalities in the counties like Cornwall where the actual designation of that as a part of Cornwall heritage has actually raised problems in my houses there and so it's not a sort of unqualified good sometimes and I think we need to be honest about that and you're going to connect with those people because there are a lot of people who don't have jobs in the end of the day You're only about 25 minutes away from your cup of tea or coffee with glass of water and absolutely the same and as we come into the island of Strait I'd like to talk about how and yourself is to try and quite a few minutes ago we've actually come to the point where we find conversations that are distorted so to see if there are a lot to key points that we can pluck out of this to go away to carry them forward and to develop them rather than a kind of interesting intellectual but ultimately defeatist conversation in which we can't really extract any practical information so just have a think about that and I'll come to the panel first as we close in and lots of people want to do first please in the middle and then sir and then yeah I was wondering we talk about engaging with our little community of our neighbour but in fact we all belong to more of our community I can just found it and the trouble is we have communities at different levels I think there is a conspiracy on many people in history when I made some witnesses huge surge of interest in genealogy people are interested in their own families to realise that people have this interest but it's very closely focused on the suburbs I think the root problem is the fact it's much easier to focus on something small and grapple with than the wider concepts which effectively are affect what happens in the long term but history is very difficult to grapple in the short term thank you very much and of course you've raised a crisis table to get to the internet which of course is individualised heritage individual families part of the individuals in our own universes and the way that what does that bring to what we're talking about which any of them you have please thank you I just want to give a perspective on two I think key things that have come up the first being around language and how to get more people interested in the heritage I think there's been so much I take part in so many areas and there's so many arguments about how we change the language how we change the way we look at value but no one has ever come up as a satisfactory answer and I don't think we have a will to come up the way that the heritage logic market has responded to this challenge is actually not to say that language is to say actually we have the rules we don't say what we've done yes we do, we ask them whether they've done the list of one up on the floor it's too starving but it's more heritage values greater than it was but that's not having what we do is we invite people to tell us what's important about the heritage which is precisely the point we don't say we will only fund this building but we don't and that is really really important I think moving forward is to invite people to tell us what they value and how opportunity it will absolutely give the other point is around how much heritage protection should be about protecting what we think of as heritage in terms of buildings and monuments and just the parts and so on and how much heritage protection should be about what we create in the future and again from the heritage government you will know this from this we have given our grasp of about 4 billion pounds now for the built environment just over 2 billion of that has actually gone for conservation the other 2 billion has gone to new development trying to create something that will enthuse people about the heritage both now and in the future trying to create a new heritage as well for people to engage with their heritage and have a way of expressing their history so it is an issue about how much heritage protection should be about what we've already got or how much should it be about what we build in the future ok, thank you very much thank you and then this gentleman here Morris Howe president here at the Edge Quiz and also our working university teacher just to say one specific thing about language this afternoon to bring this back to a point that I think has come down to a lot of what you've said because it's about definitions I think it's very useful at one level and I can clearly see why he did it because in Simon Burley's book he very much propagates the idea which has become current and quite recently I think there are English heritage people there may correct me but this idea is a national collection of buildings because he's making a point that people within positions of power and authority and the people we want to influence to make decisions on our behalf must understand that there's a sense in which they are the equal of the national collections in our national galleries and this is also an excellent point that will pay nearly 100 million for two paintings for two galleries in London and Edinburgh and that's wonderful that are some of my favourite paintings we cut half of that from a natural body which covers buildings all over the country and that doesn't seem to be the sort of problem so he's making the point about this is a collection which would value something built up over time alongside a natural museum on the other hand, clearly from everything we've said today what that word collection doesn't hit is the sense that we're all concerned about these buildings in their specific settings it's sort of individualising buildings too much what we're really concerned about is the views towards them the views out from them and around them and part of a much wider debate about their significance for us within their landscape that people may much more relate to as part of their experience of their environment than a tune of buildings in which they're told to at my because it's got terracotta and there's only other five examples of it so I think we need to help get a different word in the currency for that great, let's use the word currency, just to shift away the priority review of them up today is great legacy of what we now have in the care of the nation as a way of keeping to that point about its significance but also making it part of a wider environment around very, very special individual buildings something we can think about and come away with in these two days thank you very much we've got two contributions from the EU of this side if we start with that and then come forward One thing that hasn't really come up yet is being implicit in these discussions hasn't really come up to me is this issue of education we know that heritage has this dynamic power to engage, to excite to create educational opportunities and life opportunities of range of levels but specifically also we're talking about how to engage communities, how to get ourselves out of communities and obviously fundamental community centres are schools and learning things within the curriculum in relation to a local sensitive place in that sense engaging with young people for thinking towards a future and that's probably really part of this discussion so thinking about a full and formal generation in relation to young people I know that's why we're making implicit discussions, but it hasn't been said yet Thank you for saying it Michael Gove, I'll be listening Chris Starve, University of London he's supported the conversation I'll be making for you once but the first one is soon to run back from the drama John Wayne I live in London a largely Georgian very Victorian area of character which is in normalcy value by many people but all the supply for backgrounds and all the education we live very well there there's absolutely no doubt that where it was built it was uniform crushingly inappropriate but we have possibly tasteless human codes of understanding of the problems and I do think although I'm not arguing that we should our concerns I think we do need to be very aware of the way in which appreciation a second appreciation value has changed at the time and just to consider perhaps that as we face another industrial suburb or mass suburb it's been certainly able to now hide value even on a conservation hot case but it could be ugly and massively inappropriate her attention but we need perhaps a little about the future about the ways in which the future might fall on the value or we consider we consider to be gross the same point is just about the local community the activism and again it's more of an experience it's a funding space for our own suburb in quite a wealthy town in West Yorkshire a global free town with filling gardens in Victorian villages there is absolutely no doubt individually every property area in the area where my parents live which is to exploit the economic gain from having appropriately built and designed green mongolo by house and expensive garden there is equally excellent there that everybody around them a little bit of themselves there is a tremendous tension and actually no agreement on what's appropriate except that everybody might do themselves and is afraid of somebody else that they will affect their body value this whole idea that there is a future that's out there which just bonds into our idea of what the appropriate environment is and what the appropriate environment is and what we want and in character he's actually one of the people we need to be one of the more skeptical about a bigger job of persuasion out there and then we prepare it to be talking to each other and the final point is just going out of grey my heritage I paint a good figure of heritage that will set that organisation up as a lot of answer for using that heritage because it is so unorthas so we should be talking about heritage it's not heritage it's so unorthas it allows anybody to rule away into the intangible that we have to met if we're actually going to conserve a physical environment which rightfully or wrongly is what we're talking about about legislation so I absolutely take the point that heritage conservation of the values are attributed to the elements of the physical and the historic environment but I would just dropkick the notion of heritage into touch that people can deal with oral history and other forms of intangible heritage deal with that and these we can with the context in which we work I would urge that we focus on the material and I would suggest that we focus on the material within the inherited environment and the inherited landscape at last That's right I would encourage that I would just like to take you back to what Henry French was saying earlier that we need to understand heritage in a context in a wider suit if you like but we are not the centre of that environment for the universe and in fact we are a small rather scruffy dot on the periphery of that so we don't need to be taken seriously when we relate to some people who are going on slightly near the centre so the context of our education at the back we have been bashed away at trying to get a heritage if that's the right word to use all the past better represented in school curricula for 70 plus years we had a short time of Liberna where there was for example an A level in archaeology a GCSE in archaeology both of those have now gone thanks to Mrs Grove and colleagues and we have lost a huge advantage that we had at that time but that biggest society is reflected in decisions that are ostensibly taken for heritage reasons but actually have almost nothing to do with heritage whatsoever and just three quick examples of those Stonehenge is somebody who worked at as I said appreciated at that time so three bizarre years responsibility to Stonehenge of the Sosceses it was not a decision as a heritage to close the site or to have the exclusions or anything else it was a political decision that Mrs Faction did not like Traffords and she wanted to cross Traffords it was an envy element of the southern blue sources wanting the same kit in the sources that more than colleagues had to crush in the minor struggle it was a real a really real issue and concern and fear of the IRRA because at that time there were seven government ministers within five miles of Stonehenge who were the two senior officers of the British Army that were there and I don't think this is an official secret anymore there was the largest ammunition dump in Northern York within a quarter of a mile of Stonehenge and I promise not to mention the product in the context where two armed IRRA operatives were arrested in the Stonehenge car park and the closure of Stonehenge at that time in that context isn't a heritage issue at all but it must ground a big deal take a totally different example that's going to join that where there is a massive burden sorry, gloomy perhaps burden in heritage development right across the country not driven by any interest at all in the heritage of ancient China but driven entirely by in the bottom of internal tourism where hundreds of thousands of people in the new China real fast want to go on holiday they want to go on holiday to another city and every city almost in China is grappling to be that city that they go to and they are creating creating archaeological theme parks and parks and at the same time destroying the real heritage as that work goes on perhaps finally but not quite finally very nearly finally the work that I'm doing at the moment with the military trying to encourage the military during conflict to take cultural property protection seriously we started, we did this enough for 10 years since 2003 and for the first 6 years perhaps we got it completely wrong and tried to turn the military how important the cultural heritage was and we got glazed views we got glazed expressions if we managed to get it have a conversation turn that around to what the military call a force wanted by to make the job easier and get them good to be are and we're in there now we've got ministry defence and lobbying for ratification of the 1954 head convention which would not have happened 15 years ago certainly didn't happen 15 years ago so it's that bigger element we're not going to change the military's mind because heritage is important stuff actually yes if it's a force not required to protect my rights I'm listening to you and I will and finally the element of Australian New Zealand as opposed to fabric the critical I think another critical word which goes back to education is story and there is no point in preserving fabric if there isn't a story to build that fabric whether the story is fabricated or whether it's a real one or a modified one does that matter that it is the story and the message that we can put across through that heritage that becomes critical to an understanding not of the past but of the future thank you very much I'm going to call Carenza please and then I'm going to ask the partners to give their own personal recommendations of relations on how they can and what they can Carenza no, it's the University of Cambridge I'm speaking off to you so I'm not going to say too much but I'll just pick up two points one, Chris is about term heritage when we introduce anyone from primary school to a graduate level about what is archaeology we define it as the study of the past through the physical remains it's a shame you can't use the term archaeology perhaps it's the heritage of physical remains but of course that was about fashion having heritage came on has been a sort of more acceptable version of that but it's a shame of the way we can't use archaeology now secondly to do with education and curriculum I thought people might want to know there is a part of one of the history GCSEs the school's history project GCSE which is all free of the exam where 25% of that exam is a history around as a module which focuses specifically on taking students to study a historical site or an archaeological site in detail and doing some sort of an assessment on it and how that will survive the most extreme dogey reforms that have been wrote back on but it's still out at the moment and it's a great focus to do something archaeological within that we've worked with students doing archaeology and taking their history GCSE through that so that is now to be exploited as a curriculum at the moment and with an issue of GCSE that has been one of the core subjects so I just want to make those couple of points that are in lots of stuff and the young future one final point from there to the panel please there you go, thank you just to follow up on that if you remember from Cambridge but I'm also speaking now from the Royal Historical Society we've been very involved in the current curriculum debates and the current GCSE history specification that we're working on includes a compulsory element of local environmental study which the President of the Office who does actually not very well subscribe as a treaty so we're hoping to make this at that and that is at absolute centre of GCSE and once you've never understood the fact not in two years and four years but in ten years or twenty years of embedding things into a compulsory curriculum all you have to do is look at what's happened to languages falling off and they were no longer compulsory and they're having to come back the same thing may happen to let's call it archaeology but it will be part of our history GCSE thank you good so now we're talking about the parting issues and what they've said and heard and I'm going to give that a hand arall It isn't the order time but the incredible success of all our colleagues Mae'r de conquest. Felly, dyna'r meddyliau o'u gwbl, ymylch ei chymweithio addysg cyfan lleigwyr hwnnw sylwg yn rwyf. Mae y meddyliau meddyliau y fyrdd am y llwyddoedd i ddweud yn gofio'r unig i'r meddyliau hynny Dyma, oherwydd i'r llwyddoedd i'r meddyliau yw mae'n ymgylch yng nghymru. Mae hyn yn unig i ddaeth yn arddangos iawn, oherwydd i'n meddyliau yn cyhoedd. We can't just think to put them much, much bigger, a rise on that front. Thank you very much. I'll check please. It didn't just, perhaps some of the stories that have been running through the last hour and a half. Then there was one thread there which is this point that has been about that. That's about that anxiety a about people seeming to us identify heritage mostly with buildings and monuments, I guess it's interesting that there's one paraphrasing of history again with the monuments pointed to building in many areas, but there's also another story of heritage through the National Trust, but then it would be much better place to tell that story around starting with places, open space landscapes, and then only later moving them into buildings as objects of preservation. I think sometimes those stories don't get out of play and people aren't aware, actually, of those legacies and the organisations don't do as much to really draw people's attention to all the landscapes that they steward, actually, that these landscapes are associated with open spaces, in the case of the National Trust, the National Space, and the big houses still tend to be the places that people identify with organisations like that. And I guess the other comment is just about also maybe underplaying the way that heritage organisations are the business of managing change, anyway. And if you're honest about that, it's okay, but sometimes the transfer of significance is unique in the material fabric there, and sometimes the transfer of significance and actually the change in the material fabric. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I have three points in my mind. Firstly, on the word heritage, for quite a long time we actually had a veto on a ban on reaching publications, I can't say. It doesn't seem like it, it still does seem like it, but trying to be like the word creeps back all the time, it can't resist you. And I think for me that demonstrates that it does have a certain power. We may not plant it, but it does do a job, quite succinctly. And so I think even if we prefer something else, we may have to live for the word heritage because it's there. Secondly, just a verification, enhancement, almost pushing I haven't mentioned it, I did, just to be clear, I'm talking about enhancement of significance. I'm most definitely not saying we can't add to, improve in certain ways, have new layers to be addressed, but the significance itself in my view is content, and we can't make better. A third point for the future is about the word controls. I've been giving a talk about legislation for the last 10 years or so, and it started out being called Historic Learning Control, and I looked at it again this year, and somehow the word control felt very inappropriate and uncomfortable for the present. The alternative, I suppose, is the word David, raised management, which is the one that's become a common currency in all these times. But I did consider that, and I think even management now seems slightly old fashioned. What we perhaps mean is a replacement word, which is all about facilitation, bringing expertise that we might hold into the decision making process, without it feeling like a top-down process where we are actually involved in the spirit of localism. So, if anyone can come up with that. Excuse me. Do you mind if I have the last word of the mind, unless you have the last word of the mind? You asked a few minutes ago, when you asked us to think, if people think about words that might transfer through to tomorrow, I should confess that I don't like putting down ideas into words. I reside on them with the concept of definitions. I think words change over time and month, they change a page is a perfect example. Many of us avoid it in the 1980s and 1990s, but in the end, you start using it and through time, you change. Why I ask people to deny it doesn't matter why I ask about my heritage in the 1990s, for example, as a thing, and I guess it's the same with all of you. So let's not try to think words down too into too complicated definitions because then we can't play it being complicated, don't we? If you remember, I said I'm thinking these words are down on me what I want them to be. I will talk about a few words here quickly. I'll just be fully finished with. I suspect this meaning is probably infinite. We'll always find ourselves using it and changing it. National. I have not used the word natural today. My instinct is that now isn't a good time to start using the word natural again. My slight case of family in Central East and South East Europe, I think the word nation, is a very dangerous word. Is a dangerous word in 1930s is a terrible word. I'll just come back to my capital city, which would be building a centre on a gigantic scale to make a centre with four times of lifestyle statues, and where you've got a lot of land on the place, is a sort of town that I've got to see that I've got perfectly done with, or I've understood things to be avoided. Loss, a lot of loss and change. There's a tendency in the edges, so we'll think that change leads to loss. I'd like to break that connection. That's where you think people don't think they think it, and break that connection, because it's really important and just a few times that it is also important to make it a design and future heritage. An example of this came up in Solbyn. You know, the denser state have not been as well as more towns, but like that village, and they all have the same sense in the role of part of the town. In a sense, they're not local places, because they mean that people who are having a hard working life in the village, instead of riding 30 miles to the nearest town, it's a global phenomenon. So why shouldn't they have a local style? So I'm not so sure about the value of the same. What with me is why a local planet doesn't say where you are, if you can build a local house. Why must they need prestige? Because I'm very active in our vehicle, but in 2113 in this room, people were looking about, one asked two questions, and I was saying, what happened in the 60s? Did it build anything new? Because what it was, we don't like it. And secondly, I think I'll say it, what happened in the 60s or in the 19th century? There'll be nothing distinctive if we're not careful in our places. Heritage, in other words, we might want to use, I mean, I've been talking about everyday heritage, the idea of living with heritage, engaging with heritage on a day-by-day basis. That brings us to a big field like identity, to the lives of some people who didn't mention that role of oral identity. And ultimately, the value of legacy for heritage is what you inherit. It's a legacy, because we need a request to pass on, and I've tried to distinguish between legacy and request. But is that what we receive and what we pass on somewhere between the process of heritage that creates the next stage of new things? I'd like you to, if you would please, thank me now for their contributions, and I'd like also you to thank yourselves for your contributions. I'd like to thank the staff for helping me to talk to each other without too much difficulty in that. I haven't been along this, actually, with words and definitions and things, but I'm not going to be happy about that. Because you want to team your problem. Thank you very much for being here.