 Lady Kate, what an honour. It's been possibly months that we've been trying to do this. I think I first reached out to Kate probably midway through last year, I was like, please, can we have a podcast? It's like, I'm really busy. I don't even know. You said yes, and then we both... Yeah, we're both not that amazing at planning, but it's an honour to chat to you now. Yeah, we made it. Yeah, congratulations. I feel happy for this both. So, yeah, Kate is the most remarkable copywriter, and we met actually through Vicky. Good old Vicky. She's lovely, isn't she? We met through Vicky Ross, who is amazing, and helped us make the Ken Lyon copywriting course that we made. And you very kindly helped us on that, and your videos are some of the videos that people email us about the most and say that Kate team person is amazing. And so hopefully you've got lots of new fans from around the world. So thank you, and your lesson was hilarious as well. I think you talked about, was it wee-wees? Wee-wees, yeah. It's one of my classic. The wee-wee test, not having too much copy about yourself. Yeah, I just like the wee-wee. Yeah, so it's, I love that so much. And it was just so simple. And I think we've actually started using it more in our own, in my own life and in our own work life now. Whenever I see a piece of copy, I always remember about your wee-wee story. And I'm like, has it got the word you in it? Make people say you all the time. Makes a lot of sense. But yeah, Kate, I mean, how you've obviously got an English accent, but you're definitely not in the UK. And tell me, how did, how did this happen? How did you get from the UK to Australia? Well, I was in the UK till about 25, you know, doing various jobs in digital marketing and things like that. When digital marketing was just, you know, in its nascent stages, it just begun in the UK. And then a friend of mine wanted to go backpacking. So the intention really was to go backpacking around Asia. My friend fell in love with a Thai boy called Bang on a beach. Yeah, great name. Bang by name, bang by nature by all accounts. So he, that was him. And I was suddenly bereft of a friend. And to be honest, not a much experienced traveler. The furthest we went when I was a child was Wales. So I was terrified to be honest. And I hop footed it straight to Australia where I had a one friend. And then two weeks later, I got a job because I ran out of money, you know, and so I got a job and the job happened to be as kind of head of digital Ogilvy who had just started their digital department. Little did they know that I was very under qualified. I got demoted and demoted as time went on as they realised I was not capable of such a role. But then yes, I was in Australia. I did that role for about three years. They were very kind enough to sponsor me, which then as soon as they did, I left. Great. You know, what a millennial. I came back to the UK for a few years, realised the horror of the UK and the weather. And then came back to Australia. We were talking about this just before the podcast. It was like coming back out of Narnia. It was like Australia had never existed. And then it took me about four years to sort myself out and come back to Australia. And I've been here ever since. Wow. The thing that is so nuts about that is when I moved to South Africa, I moved and started working in digital marketing for Ogilvy in South Africa. And they sponsored my visa. We both owe Ogilvy a debt. I really do. 100%. I mean, I love that agency. And I know, I mean, the work from the Sydney office has always been really good as well. It's a different five. Ogilvy was part-time by a man called John Singleton over here, who's a real body and a battler. And he was very practical about advertising. There was no subtlety to the advertising. It would be like, here's a beer, it tastes like beer. That would be a classic ad here. And there was, we weren't allowed to enter awards. So kind of that kind of creative kind of creativity, that kind of snark, that wits that you get to advertising in maybe the UK. It wasn't here in Australia. It was very practical, but it was still a great experience. It was an amazing place to work. Yeah. And I don't know about you, but I always found that Ogilvy people tend to be, you tend to find some of the characters in different Ogilvy officers around the world. I found that quite nice. I think working in an advertising agency is honestly, like it's a baptism of fire. Like, you know, the characters, the personalities, the huge egos you have to deal with. You know, it was terrifying to be honest. And I'm glad that I'm no longer in advertising life. And I worked for myself. I never quite felt like I fitted him. To be honest, but I enjoyed it. Yeah, well, I think that's possibly a common thing where people don't feel like they quite fit in. But I think you touched on something that was interesting there. Do you think a positive that you get from advertising with that baptism of fire is often, particularly if you're at a big agency, you end up having to learn a lot about a lot quite, quite quickly. And do you feel that perhaps would have given you some extra confidence to go through that? Do you feel that perhaps would have given you some extra confidence to go out on your own and do your own thing? Because I mean, I guess that's the next question, is how did you start the empire that you have now? Quite by accident, to be honest. So I worked there and then I worked obviously at places in the UK, came back and did contract roles. You know, I obviously had a bit more experience under my belt. So I was going into agencies and being contractor. Briefly was a digital manager of an agency. I was on the board and had shares. Absolutely hideous. So I kind of enjoyed the contracting life. And then, you know, I was at that stage where I wanted to have a family. We were actually told we couldn't have kids. We would have to do IVF. So it was all going to, that wasn't maybe going to happen for me. And then quite by chance, I got randomly pregnant. I blame my dog. The dog is not the father, but I got a dog and immediately after getting the dog, I got pregnant. And then several other people who looked after my dog also got pregnant. So I think he's a fertility dog. Random sake, you know what I'm like, Chris. I'm just going to go on off on a little tangent. Anyway, got pregnant, was contracting. So no maternity leave. I had no savings really. I was the primary breadwinner. So at about five months pregnant, I left the agency I was working at. And I was like, I got to do something. And I set up katoon.com hideous website. I had flames up the side flames black website and I was like, I'm going to be a copy. What, what some kind of satanic thing going on there. And I just did everything and anything to begin with a bit of project management. Because I was actually a producer and a project manager in agency world more than a copywriter. I did have a briefs then. And did everything and anything to get, get started. But yes, back to your actual question. You know, the Ogilvy stuff, just being able to pump out the work on a deadline to not have to sit there, wait for inspiration. That, that, you know, we always had to time sheet everything. Every minute of our day had to be recorded against the client. So that discipline of managing my time and then the project management skills of managing budgets. And also, to be honest, managing people, I think being a good successful freelance copywriter. It's 50% at writing and 50% dealing with clients. You know, they probably won't even remember the copy you wrote, but they will remember the relationship. So having learned to be a diplomat was hugely helpful in my freelance copywriting business. I imagine whether, whether any books or people that you met, or that's some sort of key bits of advice that you learned quite early on that really helped you. Was it just kind of you picked it up as you went along? I must admit, I'm not a huge business book reader. You know, I'm a racist reader of novels, but I don't, business books leave me quite cold, even my own. So no, I mean, I think I had a few very dramatic creative directors at Ogilvy. Most of them were from a design background, not a copy. I had one great creative director Matt Rochford, who is a copywriter, who taught me little basics, which seems so obvious now, like the rule of three and, you know, problem agitate solution and, you know, using adjectives, you know, it's a big, big things. You make the copy big and it's a small, just stupid little things that stuck with me. But no, no, like great one line. I remember one creative director was obsessed with the economist. And he used to try and use always running these competitions to write the headline that would go on the front page of the economist. And I always lost. And then a friend of mine Barry settings always won. And I remember just loathing Barry settings being so jealous of him. And then rather than lovely, he actually came and did my course last year, Barry settings. And it was a bit of a, it was a wonderful moment for me because I saw his name pop up and I was like, it can't be the Barry setting. It was. And of course he's a lovely, lovely man. I was just very bitter and jealous. No, no, I'm offering again, but no big lesson. Just lots of kind of big personalities with big ideas. And I guess a little bit of that rubs off on you over the years. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I think I tend to agree on that. And I think that again in advertising, there are so many of those really simple rules that you, that you get to know me, even if it's just, I remember one of my, there was one of my first bosses of a guy called Gavin Levinson, he was just obsessed with presentations as well. So everything had to be aligned and, you know, don't, don't use more than two or three different fonts for a presentation. I mean, ideally one like, there's all, all these kind of things, but they're, they're gold dust when you end up having to present something to someone. And so, so it's, yeah, so helpful. But I mean, you've actually gone on to, to teach lots of stuff yourself. So I'm imagining now, is it, are you still doing, you know, what's the sort of percentage split roughly? Is it mostly now teaching in courses, or are you still doing lots of the actual work yourself? So I think, you know, I've been doing this in our 13 years. I think for the first four years, I was solidly copywriting for client. And then about the year five, I was, he coincided with my son going to school. That's when I started to branch out and do a bit of training. I was mostly live workshops. And then back then, you know, now courses are too penny, but back then there were no online course, especially not in SEO. So I built them then and for a brief period, I did those clients and that stuff. And it was very hard. It was really challenging. But I haven't really had any proper copywriting clients for about four years now. In the last year, I did two projects with a coffee company and an immigration lawyer. So it's amazing. Mostly just because I really like the people and also because I wanted to keep my hand in. I run a big community of copywriters and you get, the further you get away from copywriting, you forget all the little horrors of, you know, that when you've told the clients he's trapped changes and then they send the debt back with a scroll on it faxed back, you know, I just showed this to my wife. She writes to school newsletter and she thinks she shouldn't have used but in this sentence, you know, that kind of stuff. I needed to feel that again, so that I could help my members a bit more. So two clients in the last four years and then the rest is just writing for myself. Tell me more about the SEO copywriting course as well. Because I mean that when, when I was doing some research before the show, that one came up a lot everywhere. So I mean, you've obviously, the name of the course lives true in that it came up a lot on on searches. So yeah, I mean is that I'm imagining that must have skyrocketed over sort of COVID times with people starting their own businesses and things. Yeah, so it's a holistic course. It's not just copyright. I think the problem with a lot of copywriting courses is they teach the SEO copywriting portion of a vacuum. And just like you can't out exercise bad nutrition, you can't outright bad SEO. So you really as a copywriter need to understand the tech stuff, the backlinks, the keyword research, even if all you're doing is the copy. Because, you know, otherwise you can't set client expectations. You know, they're coming to you saying, I want to write 20 blogs to help with my Google. And then you look at their site, it's taking 15 minutes to load and you're like, no, Matt blogs is going to save you. Okay. So yeah, I mean, I started out in 2016. We just closed the launch again with 23rd launch. We just did. So it's big. We've had about nearly 1300 people through that big course. And then I've got lots of little courses. I've got like a 10 day challenge and a free course, foolishly called SEO nibbles, which I've always seen nipples instead. So throughout every video I say nipple and then try and correct myself. And by the end I just give up correcting myself. Yeah. I mean, that stuff for me was huge, huge money and a very stressful thing to produce now. Not so much. But yeah, I really enjoyed that course. It challenges me trying to break down really complex, ideas into the most basic form that anybody can get. You know, somebody that barely even knows what a web browser is can get it. And that's a real intellectual challenge for me. And I love that. Yeah. And it's, it's. What I love. What I loved when I was going through it as well was the fact that you do them all. Live. So they're not. I'm sure there's parts of it which are on demand, but that it's, it's. There's a good helping hand with it. Which I think it's hard to find from someone your caliber. And they're actually really reasonably priced. You should probably double your prices. But I think, you know, a good course lives or dies often by the support. You need someone whipping your butt to make you finish it. And, you know, SEO is not. I'm not going to say copywriting is easy, but SEO, you know, you do all the things. You follow all the steps. And just on your step 13, your breath, your side does something different. And there's no rhyme or reason to it. Because you did this back in 2017. And that affected this and blah, blah, blah. So the ability to ask someone. Questions is so much more important. You know, like it's, you need to be able to bounce ideas off people and play around. So yeah, I do love the supportive version. I have unsupported courses. I have evergreen courses, but that one, it would just be too hard to go alone. I think. Yeah. And it makes sense. I think different. You know, even with our platform, we've tried to make it. You know, as brilliant as we can. And we've got. Super high completion rates. But I know that there are some subjects that. We wouldn't dare to try and teach. You know, because we just wouldn't, it just, it doesn't fit it. So I think it's good to know that there's. It's interesting with learning. There's no one style that's correct. Is there. It's always. Everyone learns in a different way. So it's always a bit, bit hard. And I think that that goes the same for the different topics, which is interesting. Yeah. And the other thing, which is, which I love from you is you've got three, three, three, three, three, three, three, three, three, three, three. So that's one of the things that I love about this is you've got. Three podcasts. I don't know whether all three are still running though. No, I had three podcasts. I had a copywriting one and SEO one and then my personal one. Copywriting one was the hot copy podcast. It's ended now. We're going to do. Like random episodes when we feel like it, but it's done. That was three years though. We got a lot. Yeah. We learned a lot doing that. for me for new customers. I think it's very hard. You even love someone, I hate them after listening to their podcast for half an hour. So yes, I'm sure a lot of people hate me, but a lot of people seem to like it too. And I'm hoping to resurrect the Kate Tune podcast. And because I kind of have evolved, you know, I'm not, I'm not really a true copywriter anymore, I feel a bit of a charlatan, Chris. I'm a writer at heart that I'm not a working copywriter anymore. So the Kate Tune podcast, I hope, can talk to all aspects of what I do now. It's been such an evolution, you know. So hopefully somebody will be interested in hearing about that. I'm 100% sure they will. I mean, your journey is just so interesting. You know, because you've got a little team around you now. And I'm assuming it wasn't always that way. I mean, how, what were some of the tough things that you had to overcome that helped you get to where you are now with the business side of things? I think the team thing is a great one to touch on. So I think as copywriters, we can be slightly martyree. I think we have to do it all on our own. And also we're always, you know, if we're not really good with money and cash flow, we can always be in this feast and famine, you know, rollercoaster. And therefore the idea of actually paying someone to help us in our businesses just seems ludicrous, you know, like, well, I can barely pay myself. What are you talking about? And so I started very gently with just a VA virtual assistant for like an hour a week. And I didn't exactly know what that person was going to do. But the thing is, once you get someone in your business, if they're smart, they see what they need to do. They're like, oh, you know, why are you wasting your time reconciling your zero account? Or, you know, I could do that in 20 minutes. You could be working, you know, why are you doing this bizarre process to onboard clients when really you could just do this and this. So bringing someone else in and getting that perspective is so useful for me. And I mean, I've always had a proofreader in my back pocket because I'm appalling its spelling and grammar and I make so many typos. So I've always had a proofreader that gave me so much confidence. Again, another, you know, like it's in agency, you're working with loads of other creatives. And then suddenly you go to work on your own, you've got to think of all the ideas, you've got to proof you work, edit you work, write the work, be an accountant, be a marketer, be a business manager, a project manager, an account handler. It's a lot. So, you know, as soon as I had a little bit of money, I started to try and finding people who were better suited to those roles. And now I have 13 people, not full time, not full time, obviously. But, you know, bits and bobs of people, they do their area of expertise, like I've got someone who helps me with videos. I can make a video, but it would take me three hours to do what he does in 10. And I'm about to hire a full time business manager, which was exceedingly grown up on a very meaty salary that actually terrifies me. But the business, I just need to be brave. I'm very British, and I'm very Northern English, and I don't like spending money. That's a huge sweeping generalization, but it's about myself. So I feel I'm able to say it. But I've just realized that I can't have the kind of business I want unless I'm willing to take a bit of risk and invest in people. That's a ramble, but I hope it makes sense. It makes perfect sense. I mean, with our company, it's kind of the same. And we've been going for five, six years now. And whenever we can afford to hire someone new, we get a little bit more money, and it inevitably goes on people. And I think you're right. Like when you're at an agency, I used to, if I had a presentation, I'd go to someone else and go, oh, Magnus, can you just have a look at this? And when you're running your own business, you can maybe get away with doing that once or twice, finding an old friend. But you can't do that sustainably. So you need to surround yourself with other people that can do things. And it's always interesting trying to figure out what the next hire needs to be. Because I think when you're in a small business, particularly there's a million jobs, which one is the most important? And has a lot of that, I guess, been guided by the projects that you've chosen to focus or concentrate on? No, really, I'm the first person that will take on the projects and then work out how to do that afterwards. I look at my strengths and my weaknesses. The early hires were, I should have mentioned this before, the VA. Obviously, I heard an accountant, I was never going to do my own tax. Someone to set up my zero and be a bookkeeper, that was huge. I'm better with money, but it doesn't come naturally to me. So that was a strength I didn't have, outsource it. The only thing I would never really outsource is the actual writing. That to me would feel very disingenuous. So every post I write, every social media thing, is me because that's my core scale. It actually pains me. I have hired copywriters to write for me and they tend to do this kind of almost cabaret version of me, like the extreme. They're doing the impression and you amp it all up or a caricature. So that's the only thing I wouldn't do. But generally I look at my weaknesses and try and fill those weaknesses and then just get people who are smarter than me, to be honest, which is not that hard. I'm a great project manager, but my new business manager is far superior because she's single-minded and I am very, I am like a little bit of a squirrel. I run after whatever nut I'm excited about. I'm better than I used to be, but I don't want to lose that squirrely nature. I don't want to stamp that out by becoming a business manager. After me bagging out creative directors, Chris at the beginning of the episode, I am now the creative director of my company. That's the role that I've given myself. That's the title. I'm the talent. I do the writing. I do the showing up, the podcast, the speaking, the live chats, the whatever. Other people behind the scenes make the wheels turn and that's a great place to be, to be honest. I'd imagine that you're scrolling and finding all these different things actually help you to be the incredible person you are and that you know, that, you know, I strongly believe that knowing a little about a lot is really helpful and I think it allows you to be much more creative and do whatever it is that you're doing much better. I love that you say that because I've always felt that that was such a weakness, you know, like why wasn't I born with one great skill? Why am I an amazing swimmer or violinist or mathematician? And I'm not, I'm a generalist. You know, I'm okay, quite a lot of things and I used to think that was terrible, but I agree with you now. It's really helpful in life to be able to do a few different things, you know. My guess though is that, because I always thought the same as you, but I think that this is a realization in the last kind of 10 years, mainly thanks to the internet, is that you don't necessarily need to be a specialist anymore. I, and there was, whenever I say that, I always think in the back of my head, oh, but of course, if you're a doctor, you need to be a specialist. But even with that, there's so much research that shows that if you, you know, doctors who are trying to find cancers, if they were more of a generalist, they often found different, found the cancers much faster or just identified them where the specialist was often overlooked them. Yeah, that television that you get, I think. I think that's true. As a copywriter, there's often a lot of pressure to niche. It can be, I think, super helpful, you know, your niche into medical writing, then your marketing gets easier, your job process gets easier, you're writing the same kinds of copy, you get faster. But I think you should always keep a little bit of time up your sleeve to write a video script for a vet, you know, or to write, you know, Facebook ads for a clown, you know, not clowns, clowns are terrifying. But you know what I mean, like, I never really niched by industry. I kind of niched a bit by SEO because back then it was a niche, I don't think it is anymore. But that variation is what feeds my soul. And every time I got like a big retainer client, I remember I worked for a big tech brand for a long time, writing their emails, and I just kept putting the price up because I hated it. And they kept on being willing to pay the price. And I've, you know, such good money that paid my mortgage, it paid everything. After a year and a half, I just could not do it anymore. And I fired the client because I felt like I was just moving adjectives around in sentences, it was just soul destroying. So I think, you know, being too much of a specialist can lead to a bit of tunnel vision and a bit of tedium for me anyway, my personal 100% agree. I mean, I know this is slightly different to where we're going, but I mean, who are your kind of, who are the copywriters that you admire the most? You know, I'm not somebody that sat down and written out Bob Bly's sales letters by hand for six years, which is often recommended. You know, I think it's other people like me. You know, we mentioned Vicki Ross, but we're going to be we're going to be notified if we've got that name wrong. I love Joanna Weave over in the States. I think she's, I love what she's done with her business and the courses that she has. And she's just a lovely, lovely human. There's a few I'm not going to remember any of their names. I met a lot of lovely copywriters when I went over to an event called TCC IRL, which is American Copywriting Conference. They all knew each other and they're all big names, but obviously I'm English, I don't know who any of them are, you know. So I'm not somebody that puts copywriters on a pedestal. You know, some of my favorite copywriters are actually members of my community, who there's a great copyright in my community called Debbie Commode, who does these amazing reels on Instagram hilarious. I don't know how she, you know, she's not like some 21 year old millennial, she's my age. And so she's somebody I really admire. Do you know what I mean? Oh, I won't be able to find it now. I'm going to have to find it on my phone. We'll let it to break. I think it might be coffee spray. I'm going to look it up. Can you play some elevator music while I do this? I'll find it. I'll find it in a minute. But yes, you know, so I don't think I have heroes. And I definitely have no reverence for, you know, the old school, the Don Drapers, the mad men at all. And unfortunately, but yeah, it's different, you know, people inspire me for different things. And often it's not big names. I think that's what I'm trying to say on the very hand of that. It makes sense in your sorry, your community thing sound amazing. I remember you, I think it was in one of the last podcasts I was listening to you said that there was a chap who came up with a points based priority system. Yes, which I thought sounded genius and probably is very helpful for anyone who struggles with time management, which I know ID. Yes. And of course, now I've immediately got his name. I'm going to suggest to Chris that after the episode, I send his name and the other names and we put them in the episode notes. But yes, your community, we talked about like that support and not having a team. I started a clever copyrighting school nine years ago on Google Plus, and that still existed. Because I was just so lonely. And I didn't know what I was doing. And I randomly asked 25 people on Twitter who I didn't know if they would join. That 10 of them said no. And about 15 said yes. And that little gang taught me more about copywriting than I could have ever learned from a course, even basic stuff like how to build like should you send the first payment, you know, 50% up front. And I didn't even know stuff like that. What a retainer was, because I knew how to write copy, I'd been in an agency, but I knew nothing about running a business. And that translated into the clever copyrighting school. Now I've got about 400 members. And I wanted it to be the community I wish I'd had when I started. So, you know, yes, that was one particular session we did on productivity and not beating yourself up. But and it was amazing. But yeah, I love that community. I get as much out of that community as I give. It's for me really. It's all about me, to be honest. And if people want to want to join the community, how the delay, you have to take the course and we'll join the community. It's a separate beast. So it's not a course. And I think there's a big difference there. I found the ladies handle. Sorry, I've been trying. It's the underscore copy underscore sprites. The copy sprites with underscores in it. So I'll send Chris a link. She's great. Yeah, so it's called the clever copyrighting school. It's a membership. It's got loads of teachings in it. There's like 200 hours of training, but it's not a course. So it's more like a pick and mix. Remember when we had pick and mix of Woolworths? Woolworths on now, right? Unless you're in South Africa. Still here in Australia as well. But it's like a supermarket here. It's not Woolworths as we know it. In South Africa, it's like weight trays. And then they have, I think they co-owned Country Raid, which is also an Australian brand. Yeah, it is. Yeah. So no, the membership is amazing and joint. There you go. There's my pitch. To get into, to become a member of that, you just go to katetune.com and then. Yeah, go there and then you can follow the journey. I've got about eight different websites, which is a foolish thing I did in the early years, because I tell you, though, that was a confidence thing. I started clever copyrighting school and I was like, no one's going to want to learn copyrighting from me. So I'm going to pretend that this is this glorious company that runs copyrighting training. And then I started the recipe for SEO success. And I was like, no one's going to want to learn SEO from me. And now I realize that it's the me that people are really buying. You can learn SEO on you to me if you want to. Is it you or you, Demi? I never know. But, and you've got your amazing copyrighting course. And I've got a few copyrighting courses and you could be like, oh, God, are we in massive competition? No, because someone's going to love your vibe and the way you teach and your wee wee tests and your little things that you've got. And someone's going to love mine. Someone said to me the other day when they joined my course, I was looking at someone else's SEO course, but I just really hated her voice. And I thought I can't sit through videos with this woman's voice. Now, fantastic. I find my voice super annoying, but. You're absolutely right. I mean, it's probably like in the real world. You know, if you if you want to start a restaurant, the best location is probably near a bunch of other restaurants. And I think people get far too hung up on competition and in jealousy and things that have no good purpose whatsoever. I have actually wasted months at a time being jealous, worrying about copycats, worrying about competition, feeling not good enough, measuring myself against our success is months I've wasted. So much naïve, amazing, ridiculous. And still now on a bad day, I can go down the rabbit hole of looking at what someone else is doing and get quite bleak about it. It's just who I am and bleak. You know, I liked the Smiths as a child. It's it's in me. But yeah, it's such a waste of time, such a waste of time. Yeah. But I think it's I mean, my thing is the more you share the more you win. I think you do that so much with everything that I've seen in your life. And I can only see it's made you better for it. You know, you've got amazing, amazing sun now, your parents are coming over to come and visit finally after a three year break. Business is going well. And what are the some of the big things this year that you're looking forward to with, apart from the parents coming over? The parents coming over is both exciting and terrifying. But no, I'm looking forward to that. I'm looking forward to speaking again. And Australia's opening up a little bit. So I'm off to a place called Wagga Wagga to speak there. Yeah, I was speaking at a conference next week. You know, I'm excited to get out and meet people again. I'm an ambivert, so I enjoy that and then I enjoy hiding in my hotel room for like two days to recover. So I'm looking forward to that. I'm finally launching some of my own copywriting courses, which is bizarre. So I did the membership first and now I'm doing the courses. Most people do it the other way around. So I'm looking forward to launching some of those, even though you know how much hard work it is putting a course together. And then I'm hoping to finish my next book, which is all about trying to be a good, a good person in business, you know, being ethical, good etiquette, you know, how to be good in this crazy online world where everyone's a troll and people are cruel, how to not let that get in. So I'm really excited about that. You know, I'm a frustrated author, Chris. I just really want to run away and write romance novels. But until I do, I'll get my kicks with writing business books. Is that so, Mills and Boone's next? Maybe. Yeah, I'm thinking, I want to do historical, I don't know, I've got lots of ideas. I'm giving myself another five years and then I might pack it all in and go and live in a hut and write my books. Nice. That sounds amazing. I'd love to live in a hut and write books. Stand up desk. Everybody, Chris, just stand up desk. Don't look at the floor behind me. The podcast might change when you stand up, apparently. You'll be more... Yeah, for me, it was just more a health thing. I think it's so much healthier. I find so much sitting down all day. You put under your desk so you can not only stand, but you can walk as you... I haven't got the treadmill, but what I did buy is something with uneven, it's an uneven surface sort of thing, so it's got pebbles and things inside it. What next? Are you going to sit on a spike? I'll let you know how it goes. Hopefully I'm still here in a few months' time, having had a fall or something. When's the book coming out, roughly? No, it's good. I've signed up with a co-publisher. I'm hoping to work on that like May, June, July. It's all written. It's in my head. It's a lot of collections of things that I've already written. I'm a prolific producer of thoughtful social media posts, so a lot of them, the chapters are going to be expansions of those. So I hope this year, it will be this year. There, I said it. I will do it. Brilliant. Okay, fantastic. Well, I can't wait, but you do have a brilliant book out already, if anyone can't wait for the undetermined time. Yeah, it's called Confessions of a Misfit Entrepreneur. How to succeed in business despite yourself. So it's a bit of a self-help business book on overcoming things like imposter syndrome and being too emotional and comparisonitis and all that kind of stuff. It was a cathartic book, really written entirely for myself, but it's hopefully a lot of fun. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I saw the reviews and I've ordered a copy. I would have sent you one. I would have sent you five. No, don't write. It's an honour. I actually don't know where I'm going to go from here. I had so many things. I mean, basically, you've won every award known to mankind, as far as I know, because you've voted Australian Business Woman of the Year, right? Oh, that was so, because I've never entered any awards because I'm not really a winner of things. And then on that, it was definitely in Christmas. It was during COVID. So I didn't even get to wear a fancy outfit. It's probably the one thing I'm ever going to win. It was great. And people really seem to take me a bit more seriously when I won that. I'm not a big believer in awards, but it's amazing what the impression they give onto other people. 100%. I used to be in the wine industry years ago. One of the best things we did was just put a fake sticker on the bottle saying, our favourite wine. We actually had fun with a copy on it. And we weren't pretending that we actually won an award, but it looked like an award badge. And just putting that badge on there with some fun copy helped us push more wine than anything else that we did. Many people love a logo. They love a stamp. They love that circle with the wiggly edges around it. Wack that on something and it's like, you're official now. It's crazy. 100%. Crazy. What's the sign? There is a sign behind you, which I can't quite read. It says Australian. Oh, that's for copycon. That's for copycon. So I run a conference here in Australia called the Copywriting Conference. There's also a copycon in the UK as well. We kind of battle for the title of copycon in a friendly way. So I don't think we're competing with each other, to be honest. It's all good. So yes, I've had to put it off for the last couple of years obviously due to some, I think there's a pandemic going on. I'm not sure if you've heard about it. Yeah, someone heard about it. Yeah. So hopefully this year in October that will be happening again, probably a lot smaller. I think people are still very nervous about being out and about. But it's a great, fun event. It's like an Ed Sheeran concert with copywriters and fewer ginger people. But it's very fun and I'm really looking forward to meeting because that's primarily for my members. But we do get real people in as well. So it's just lovely to meet everybody in real life. Sounds fantastic. And if people want to go, they need to get on a plane and go to Sydney. Sydney, Australia. It's an amazing venue. It looks out over Sydney Harbour Bridge. We have a big party in the evening looking out over the bridge and the water. So I think people just come for the party to be honest. And what date, roughly? I should know this, shouldn't I? It's in October at some point. I haven't thought about it. We've got the speakers and sales pages up. If you go to copycon.com.au, you can check it out. And if you do fancy a trip to Australia, we'd love to see you. Just mention Chris and I'll give you a discount on your ticket. Thanks. So it sounds amazing. Well, I'll probably draw it to an end here because I think otherwise, I need to go to bed sometime soon and you probably won't be able to do some work. But I have a stupid question for you. It's a would you rather. So would you rather live in a world where you always dance instead of walking or you always have to sing instead of talking? I sing all the time. I sing a lot to my dog. So, you know, and also I'm the sort of person who goes, I am opening the fridge to get the milk out. Like I'm in some terrible musicals. So no, Deffy is singing. Yeah. Brilliant. Congratulations. I love that answer. There is no hesitation. It's like, yeah, definitely. These are the questions I may awake at night and think about Chris. You know, I think it's to know these things like what superpower, what would you spend a million dollars on, which famous person in history, you've got to know the answers to these things. I think it would be mind reading. I think it would be very dark. I'd have to be able to switch it off, but I'd love to be able to read people's minds. It's like evil. It's quite hot. You bet you would. That's that though. Anyway. It's good. Well, well done. Nice. I think that's kind of it. Thank you so much. And please, if anyone wants to learn more, just go to katetune.com and you can browse any of her 50,000 websites with the 20 million other things that she's that she's doing. But I mean, we get to meet so many people who are making these courses. And I always feel so honored when we do it. But really, Kate, like having chats with you when we made that copywriting course was one of the highlights of my year. Thank you so much. Really, really, really enjoyed it. And yeah, you're the way that you teach and the way that you share knowledge with humour. I just absolutely adore. So thank you very much for being here. I wish you all the success and happiness and all the good things in the world. And thank you so much for taking the time to speak to me. I'll get back to making my desk. Lots of love and thank you so much.