 The evidence-based chiropractor has a lot of things on it, right? There's like the research, there's some awesome products, there's even a student portal, but we'll get more into that. How do you describe the evidence-based chiropractor? Well, I think it's evolved as time has went on, but right now I'd say it's tools for chiropractors to grow their practice. So initially it was more strictly research-based, but as time went on I found that there was some things in my practice when I'd go to either use a product or purchase a product, it wasn't up to whether it was content or aesthetics, not up to what I liked. So that's when we started to kind of dive into a little bit more products, but I really don't want, I really like it to stay research-based and every product, in my opinion, at least is carefully chosen to make sure it still falls within kind of our brand standards. The design, the aesthetics that you mentioned and the branding is probably the thing that most captured my attention. Evidence-based is kind of a trigger word for me, I grab on to anything, although that's maybe going out of style, but when I got to the website and noticed that it's so well done, and I think you're using Squarespace, which I am to, which is probably the best service out there, but the things that you do produce, the research briefs, the iBook, what led you to make sure that that design was up to standard? That's a really good question. It's just personal preference, so I kind of come from more of a visual and art background as opposed to maybe, I mean they can coexist of course, but I think I'm into products and services that work well, that are fluid, that are elegant, that are modern, but not over-the-top modern, but still retain classic elements, all that fun stuff, so really I think the, and a lot of it was, when I first started out in practice, I'm handing out things that I just was like, this just looks like it was created 25 years ago, and it didn't make me feel good. It's the fifth photocopy. I appreciate that so much. Do you have a design background? Not formally, but it's something that I've always been really interested in, and I actually played music forever, so that kind of goes hand in hand, so it's always been, with every band that I've played in, I've been heavily involved in what's going to go on with, whether it's a show poster, whether it's the disc itself, whether it's press photos, whatever the case may be, I've been really into what I think looks good or what does not look good, so my skill set in terms of photoshop and things like that is average, minimal to average, but I have, I'll create drawings and I'll know what I want, so then I'll be able to kind of match with somebody who can actually execute it and kind of work from there, so. How much of this are you doing on your own, and how much do you have a paid designer or someone helping you out? I am the only employee of the Evidence Space Chiropractor, so I'm it, but I work for the website build out and the initial branding, all of the initial I did myself, about a year ago I transitioned to what it looks like currently, that I worked with a company out of St. Petersburg, Florida called Harbor, and since then I've found another person through them that now I'm working with, kind of just on an as needed basis, but it's really product by product basis, so with Harbor we created all the brand standards, so then that's the jumping point, so now my current designer, who knows all of them and works with them, is able to kind of just take that and run with it, and then we're able to kind of tweak and make things appropriate to whatever the specific product or service is, so. That's awesome, and you've got great photography, like I said, there's some kind of clinic artworks and posters that are meant for the, and that beautiful typography. Yeah, that's all them. As far as the photography goes, I've had two different photographers, they both live local and are both friends of mine, so that's been really cool, and they're just, again, that just works out because I like people that do those kind of jobs, so creative jobs, so when I knew I wanted a specific aesthetic, I kind of talked to each of them, they both worked on two different projects, two different sets of photography, so we were able to kind of just decide, and again, I kind of know what I want as far as depth and the coloration and things like that, but I can't execute any of it, so I was able to really give them a shot list of exactly what I wanted, the angles that I wanted, what I was looking for, and then they were able to kind of use their actual expertise and make it happen, so yeah, thanks. I think that's one thing that I pride myself on with the whole system is that I think it's just as far as not only content, I hope the content is as good as anything, if not better than anything available, but certainly I think the aesthetic, not to trump the content, but supports it in a way that's nice and makes me feel good, and ultimately it's all about stuff that I want to use to be honest with you, so when other docs grab onto it and like it, that's cool, that makes me feel good, of course. I think that's great, because the content is awesome, and I think most people have great content, but what I appreciate is your awareness of the importance of design, and that even though you might be on a budget, you need to make the effort to have good design, and I think a lot of us make that mistake and we default to Comic Sans or Papyrus, whatever, fonts are just kind of anathema in the design world, so I appreciate that and I hope that more chiropractors that are doing services like you begin to recognize the need for that, and I think I'm seeing it more and more. Yeah. Now are you still at the Florida Orthopedic Institute? Great question, another great question. I just started a new group this past week, so very timely question I should say. December 18th was my last day at Florida Orthopedic Institute. Now I've moved on to their regional spine group, and now I've moved on to I guess a nationwide spine group, so I'm happy to kind of dive into that whenever you want as far as what that means. I think that some of the questions upcoming were going to be about my practice. Yeah, I'm curious how much your practice experience being in a integrative or a mixed setting led to the development of the evidence-based chiropractor. Yeah, it is why, ultimately. So kind of the backstory is the evidence-based chiropractor didn't exist, it just was something that, of course it didn't exist at certain point in time, but when I kind of started it, it was not started as, this would be a cool thing to do. It was more in terms of I joined the Florida Orthopedic Institute and it was a matter of then going to spine conference and going grand rounds and kind of seeing how the medical doctors worked. So I didn't have a built-in referral base, so I didn't just start and all of a sudden, oh, wow, in an integrative setting, I'm flooded. So it was a challenge to figure out, well, how can I build those relationships with them? How does this work? What are they interested in? So I started noting that a lot of their clinical decision-making was based on research. So logically I said, well, what do you know? Let me take a look back at some of the things that I have. And I started to look at new research and I found, wow, there's way more than I thought here. This is good. So I started putting together really rudimentary research briefs at that point in time and started giving it to them and starting conversations and saying, hey, here's a little bit about what I do. And this was in spine journal. This was in European spine journal. This was in, I mean, I love JMPT. There's no problem with anything like that as well. But a lot of, if you want to say their journals, I started to pull our research from and gain referrals and kind of, I guess you could say, build relationships within my practice. So then naturally I said, wow, if the docs in my practice, like this, I wonder if the docs across the street like this. So then I started it local with family physicians and things like that. And it was totally niche just making them for myself. There's no quote unquote business or service. It was just as a matter of necessity to build my own practice. It started working out well with the local other local docs outside of my practice. And that's when I started to say, okay, well, I know one of my good friends that is 20 miles away. So I started saying, well, send me your logo. So then I created him at the time again, he's very rudimentary. But then I started saying, Hey, would you be interested in like using something like this? And he's like, Ah, this is, you know, this is fantastic. And I started looking out there and I really didn't see anything on the market in my opinion that suited that need for car reactors. And with the way I was able to kind of start stockpiling research, I was like, I could do this in a way that would be very advantageous for car reactors, very affordable, but also use the knowledge that I've already gained as far as kind of what works and what doesn't work and kind of refined what was going on. As far as the aesthetic of the research brief and the content to what I thought would work in the best way possible, which is still constantly refining with docs all around the globe to make sure that it is, you know, the best and most usable product. So your niche really is marketing two MDs using research about chiropractic. And your iBook is just that, marketing to medical doctors. And in the intro, which is the only part I've read, because I'm a student and found the $15, which really is reasonable, I will pay $15 for any e-book. And it sounds like it's kind of a four-step thing. You get kind of get the material together, make a list of doctors to market to make the meetings and execute them and then follow up. And your program, the evidence-based chiropractor material helps doctors do all of that. Yeah. The book kind of lays everything out like stepwise. So the book is kind of A to Z. So hopefully the book, let's say there's a doc out there that says, I can create my own research briefs. I kind of like what I'm doing. Then the book hopefully is a good resource for them to kind of execute A to Z using what we've learned. And of course, like I tell all the docs, none of it is gospel. It's always going to be evolving. It's always going to be changing. And with anything, you want to do it within the integrity of yourself and your own practice. So there's no magic, essentially, in it. It's just a matter of finding the most efficient and effective way to go about things. So the book kind of takes things A to Z. And then the materials that I think that we offer, specifically the research briefs, are the support behind that. And then of course, any member also has access to the, what we call the member's vault, which has a bunch of templates and guides. So for instance, in the book, it kind of talks about case notes. Some docs don't know where to start. So any member doc has access to templates or things that we found work best as far as that, as far as that's concerned. And then of course, any member doc also has access to the book and all that jazz. But really, the book can also be a standalone piece where docs are saying, hey, I don't know really where to start, or maybe I am doing something good. I just want to do it better than the book I think is a good resource as far as that goes to just help them solidify their vision. That's excellent. So looking on the website, there's a lot of material. There's a good amount of free tools. You have one section, specifically with free tools, which are some great PDFs to download. But there's a student portal, a student program as well. What can students get out of this? Any student that becomes part of the student program, it's completely free. And basically what the students get is one thing that we haven't implemented yet, but is to happen in 2015 is a kind of a monthly call. So it's just getting on and saying, hey, what's going on? And my vision for it is that some of the challenge has just been time zone issues. So that seems to be the big challenge because the students are really spread out around the globe. And I really wanted to have, I really would like it to be a unified time where everybody can kind of mastermind together and say, hey, what's going on over there? Hey, what's going on over here? Maybe preset a few questions that, at least I can probably provide some insight on, maybe have other docs come on and guest spot, basically just help students out and answer questions from a kind of a real-world practicing perspective, which I think is important. But what is actually going on right now in the student portal is each month, the exact research brief that we white label and send out to all of our member docs, we put just branded as the evidence-based chiropractor in the student portal. So any student is able to download that, the same thing that my docs are getting every month to hand out to medical doctors, the students can access them and kind of get a feel for not only what we do, that's kind of secondary, but first they can kind of see what the, if they're not able to keep up on the research due to being so busy in school and trying to get through, they can kind of see what's out there and how it relates to practice because all the research briefs are not only a statement of what the research is, but also there's sort of positioning as far as what it means in practice. I appreciate these briefs because they're, they're not simplistic, but they really make it easier for a student to understand what's going on in the research. And there's, I think all of them or most of them are a single pdf, a single page pdf, and provide really the key material and that's important I think because I mean even I being at a evidence-based school and one of only a few who actively go out and like read research and, but it's such a time commitment and it's, my goal this past quarter was to read one paper per week, just one per week. That's good. And I wasn't able to do it every week, but I, you know, you come across papers all the time. So this makes it, you know, just makes it really accessible and it makes it achievable for a student to keep on top of the research. He recently came out with the top 10 chiropractic research papers. Give us maybe the top three. Yeah, strictly opinion, by the way. But yeah, I think, and you really hit a, I'm going to touch on one point before I do that. And that's the single page nature of it. And for any students, I think that's important. Earlier, I alluded to the fact of their, I made rudimentary briefs before. Those briefs were multiple pages. They had tons of content. I was diving in and doing all that and there was multiple pages. Each one was probably five or six pages long. And what I found and what we ended up finding was, doctors don't have the time, like they don't have time to read that. So just get them the brass tacks of it and, you know, strip, cut the fat, essentially, make sure that it's pointed, make sure that it's relevant, make sure that they have the information that's necessary for them to make it actionable in their practice. So, yeah. And that's where we kind of settled on the single page. Now, as time goes on in the next 10 or 15 years, if it becomes strictly a digital product, there might be some more play with that. But I think as a hard copy physical item, the single page is really where it's at. So that's important. As far as reading research, not only as a student, but as a future chiropractor, many present chiropractors in the same boat. So I spoke multiple times at some chiropractic continuing education conferences and seminars this past year. And I'd go over maybe 10 to 15 research briefs or research pieces. And I'd always ask, especially for the big ones in my mind, I'd say, has anybody ever heard of this? 200 docs in the room, five hands go up. And that's what they've heard of. Never mind read. I didn't say, hey, did you actually read it? So I think that there's a big divide, I think, as far as that's concerned. And I think like I'll say in the seminars always is, to me, find what resonates with you. If it's, let's say, more subluxation based, Matthew McCoy is a great docker. They're producing at the best research that he can. Then on the more musculoskeletal side, of course, you can look to JMPT as far as crossing over. And sometimes they have chiropractic or manual therapy mixed with modalities as more spiny European spine journals. There's a plethora of resources available regardless of whether you're family practice doc, regardless of what sports practice. So just find what I always encourage everybody is, find what you're into and then go for it. It doesn't necessarily have to be the research that I think is important. It's really about what you think is important. So then you're able to then resonate and bring that to the people that you resonate with in your town and your community and build those relationships regardless of who they're with. Now rather than go through your top 10 because it's free, students can access this and they can download it. I think I'd be more interested in hearing what your process is. How can students, other than getting your briefs, what are some tools or ways that they can be more active in reading research without spending all of their free time? Two best ways by far is PubMed. Most students are familiar with PubMed, P-U-B-M-E-D. I don't know the correct word, repository of research information for journals worldwide. And what you're able to do for free is set up an account and then do a keyword alert. So the keyword could be chiropractic, it could be spinal and epioptherapy, it could be adjustment, whatever you want it to be, and it could be multiple. So and then they'll email you at whatever duration of time you indicate. So whenever something new is posted with those keywords once a week, once every two weeks, once a month, so that is invaluable because it's going to pick up pretty much any registered journal in the world and automatically deliver those headlines and titles of the research articles into your inbox at whatever time you dictate. So I mean you can't really get much more straightforward than that. That's the best, and you can kind of do the same thing with a Google, like a Google News alert or anything like that. So within Google, whether it's with sort of an aggregator or whether it's just within a general Google search, you can kind of highlight and have them alert you. But PubMed search is probably the best because it's going to grab the research articles, whereas a Google News feed alert is going to be more based upon news which can be not research-based but sensational, but both are probably good because you get a good idea of what's actually going on. Yeah, the Google News is interesting to see what other people are hearing about, but you still have to do, well, I find that they almost never give you a link to the paper. So you end up having to go to PubMed anyway to find the actual paper. How much of your research you're searching for and finding papers is purely digital versus printing out the papers? Everything as far as my looking for the articles is digital. So I do PubMed searches, and then the journals that I subscribe to and or have access to through my practices, I look up what I want. My process for it is whenever I see something that I like, then of course I'll download it, and that's of course a digital copy. I'll file it according to where it resides. So whether it's a cervical paper, a safety paper, a cost-effectiveness paper, a lumbar paper, I'll kind of file it away in accordance with the body region or type of journal article. And then what I'll do is previous to making a research brief, I just like then I'll print it. So then I'll queue them in accordance with what I want to do over the course of the next few months as far as research briefs. But I'll always leave play if something comes up and it's just a fantastic article that's released this month, that'll go to the head of the line. But I probably have a few hundred articles kind of stashed away at this point in time that I feel like are great articles that are relevant. So I'll print them out before I do the research brief because I just like to hold it. And then I'll do my circling all of my notations and things like that while I have a physical copy that was been printed. And then I'll go back and create my research brief from my notes on that copy. So it's kind of a combination, I guess it's kind of a combination of both. I've never really thought about it before. That's actually my process. That's cool to hear. I could geek out for another hour about research stuff, but I want to learn a little more about you as a doctor. How long have you been practicing? I graduated in 2006, so nine years now. And what led you to decide to go into chiropractic? Well, ultimately, it comes down to my dad had a back injury. So I was at an undergraduate school. My father heard his back. He went to see a chiropractor. He improved and got well. And he said, you got to meet this guy when you come back at Christmas break. So I went back home. I met the chiropractor. He was super high energy, super charismatic guy and was like, what are you going to do? And I was like, I'm into health care. I think I want to do orthopedics, but I'm kind of not sure. But that had been what I'd been interested in since I was probably 12. I did endoscopic knee surgical paper when I was 12 years old. That's our school projects. So he kind of told me a little bit about what he did as a chiropractor. And it kind of resonated with my thoughts and beliefs without knowing, without really knowing that much about it before. And then by the end of that conversation, which was like a two hour lunch conversation, he's like, hold on a second. He's like the alumni guy for Polymer. So he calls up Polymer and says, I have some money on the phone that I think they'll want to speak to you. Put me on the spot there a little bit. So they sent me information and it kind of went from there. But then come to find out later on down the road. I hadn't put two and two together. But then I found out that my great grandfather also had been a chiropractor in the 20s and studied under BJ and all that fun stuff. So all of those things kind of tailored into each other. How do you see chiropractic? How is it different than 20 years ago? I can speak to nine years. Is that when your dad first went to chiropractic? Well, that was probably now. I was probably 18. Maybe the first time I was exposed to chiropractic was 15 years. That was probably 15 years ago. I'm 34 now. That was when I was about 18. So it's difficult to say the vibe of it at the time because it seems very similar to he practices in a way that's very similar to how many family chiropractic offices operate today from what I know. So just from being as far as the patient side of things go or the observer side of things. So as far as the back end, who the heck knows. But I think that as time has gone on specifically since I've gotten out of school, maybe nine years ago, which really got me to see the full spectrum of what's going on. In my opinion, I think that the lines of kind of interdisciplinary communication and relationship building are more wide open than they ever have been before, even compared to just nine years ago. And much of that has to do with the breath and depth of research that has been published in that time. So even if a lot of docs, it's kind of the old exposure, first people ridicule and hate and they accept and all this kind of stuff. I think it's sort of the same thing. I mean, even the most ardent American Medical Association supporting doctor of the 60s and 70s when chiropractic was in the big fight has now just in their own journals hammered over the head with what I would consider to be pro-chiropractic research so that even the most ardent has tended to say, well, there might be something there. In the bare minimum, which then opens the door for further communication. I would agree that the interdisciplinary approach is more prevalent than ever, but I also hear as I'm listening to podcasts and following outspoken chiropractors online, even more than more than 10 years ago is this this campaigning to identify ourselves as not being in the medical model as being completely different. Where do you see chiropractic going in the next 10 years? That's a tough question. I'm not sure is the honest answer. You know, one of my chiropractic heroes that I speak about all the time is Reggie Gold. So he's about as far outside of the medical model as you can possibly get. I mean, he was so far outside of it that even at the time where chiropractic was in the 70s, he said, that's too medical. I'm starting spinaulogy. So I mean, he is as radical as you can get. And he has the the famous quote that he would always say no chiropractor ever anywhere has ever diagnosed or treated a disease. Right. Nope. That's not what we do as chiropractors is his claim is that we we just adjust no matter what's going on with the patient. We just adjust correct, which has which does not fit in an integrative model in my opinion. Yeah, not at all. Not at all. So in some ways, it's sort of, you know, I hate to use the term ironic, but it's interesting that I would cite him as probably my biggest comic by the hero. Of course, considering where I'm at right now and who knows what he would think of it. Fortunately, I was able to meet him and get actually get adjusted by him when he was still with us. So, you know, that was that was absolutely fantastic and hear him speak for a two day event off campus at Palmer. So that was that was really, you know, something I'll always hold dear. But, you know, as far as where chiropractic can go in the future, you know, it's difficult for me to say, you know, my personal beliefs are that I am not for the prescription of drugs or any integration for drugs or surgery into chiropractic. That's my personal opinion. So I believe that we can operate in a unique and distinct fashion by highlighting the chiropractic adjustment and provide valuable service that way while also working with other docs. So an example of this would be I have a couple really good examples. But, you know, just as a medical doctor or a podi any sort of medical doctor, podiatrists, they're not going to be able to take care of everything. So they, of course, they refer and work with other physicians. And I certainly see chiropractic, you know, physicians or doctors chiropractic within that circle. But I don't think that that necessarily means that we need to do anything that anybody else does. I think that we can remain separate and distinct by highlighting what we do the best and what we have the most training for without, for lack of a better term, diluting what that is, which in my opinion is the chiropractic adjustment. There's many professions that can do modalities. I don't know. I don't really do many modalities. Personally, I'm kind of going off on a tangent right now. But, you know, myself, if I were to do e-stem on somebody, it would be very difficult for me to say that I can do e-stem better than a physical therapist or anybody else. You kind of just place the pads there. And, you know, you may have a trick of the trade or two, but it's sort of straightforward. Whereas in my opinion, still the chiropractic adjustment or spinal manipulation, whatever you want to dictate it, still has an art component to it. So therefore, I want, just as I want the surge, if I had to have surgery, thankfully, knock on what I've never had to, and hopefully I never will, but I would want the surgeon with the most experience in his craft. If I need an adjustment or I want an adjustment, I want the person with the most experience in their craft. This is where I get, it's difficult for me to buy into other professions creeping onto what we're doing, because the bottom line is if they're learning it in a weekend, that should, to say it doesn't hold a candle to what we're able to do would be an understatement, as far as I'm concerned. So, now as far as where that goes in the future, I think it is difficult to say, because certainly there are a vast array of opinions and chiropractic from the objective straight chiropractors all the way to the full on, let's do drugs and surgery chiropractors. It's difficult to say, in my opinion also, without having a unifying body, that makes things very difficult. So it's difficult politically to get things done without a unifying body, because the dollars just aren't behind what we're able to accomplish as far as lobbying is concerned, which is a whole another ballgame. The answer is I don't know. I certainly hope that we don't include drugs and surgery, but I certainly think there is a place for us at a table with other doctors without being completely isolated. I want to put you on the spot a bit, but I think you're up for the challenge. I want to bring together the marketing, the MDs, the research, and the defined role of chiropractic in the medical model. I interviewed a medical doctor, Dr. Mark Chrislip, who's the host of the quack cast, and is very outspoken against all alternative medicines, including chiropractic. And I asked him, had he ever been to a chiropractor? No. Would he ever know? But he had a cervical disc herniation a while back, and we kind of came to the agreement. I didn't know the research well enough at the time that he would have gone if there was evidence that chiropractic would have been beneficial for that condition. How would you approach him as a chiropractor and present research that might help him in that decision? As a physician or as an independent patient? If you were a patient. Well, let's say as an MD, because that's what we're talking about here, is marketing to MDs. Yeah. One of the papers that comes immediately to mind off the top of my head, and I'm not going to be able to cite the source of the paper, unfortunately, but there is a really good study as far as specifically with the cervical disc herniation with radiculopathy. There is a paper that shows cox technique, essentially flexion distraction technique in the cervical spine, reducing intradiscal pressure. So again, that's not going to be a traditional high velocity diversified adjustment, but with that sort of flexion distraction capability on a cox table, they were found that there were pressure decreases intradiscually. So if there was a disc herniation causing pressure on a nerve root, theoretically that is by far the best treatment option, because it's the only way you could get potential nonsurgical decompression. So it is a very specific case, of course. But I think as far as taking one step back from that, specifically that study, I think one of the big things to emphasize always in my opinion is that chiropractors, many MDs confuse the profession of chiropractic with the practice chiropractic. So they believe chiropractic equals crunch. So they see somebody who can't move their neck, has ridiculous pain, whether it's lumbar cervical or whatever, and they can't imagine a high velocity adjustment doing anything because they're like, this person can barely move as it is. And they just don't know because they don't have the experience with it. While we may choose to do that technique, because it may be what we find to be the best technique for the patient, I think it's important to always let medical doctors know. And most chiropractors now would say 90 plus have at least one low velocity technique, whether it's activator or flexion distraction, and at least one high velocity technique, whether that's gonestead or general diverse by classification. So I always think it's important to let the physicians know, hey, we have an array of techniques available from low velocity, low impact to the more traditional or high velocity techniques. So we're always going to evaluate the patient, examine the patient, correlate that with what we find in diagnostics and make the best decision possible in the most comfortable position possible for the patient. So I think it's important to highlight those because many times, again, I would say, if I were to ask that doc what he thought chiropractors did, I guarantee you he would say that if I were a chiropractor, he's going to crunch my neck and hurt me. And the bottom line is whilst the chiropractor may choose to do a gonestead adjustment or diversified adjustment, the chiropractor also may have chosen to do a decompressive technique, which may have changed this guy's world. So that would be where I'd start. And would you provide a research brief in a case like that? Yeah. I mean, if the doc requested, I mean, I usually don't do a la carte, if you want to say, for medical doctors. But certainly, if I'm ever talking with a doc, I've had docs say, one time I was presenting at a grand rounds at a hospital, and I think I I'm not going to be able to remember the specifics of it. But the bottom line, the doc was saying, like, Oh, well, flexion distraction compared to traditional traction in the lumbar spine. What's the difference? Like, is one better than the other? I'm comfortable just doing what I'm doing now. So I said, Oh, and I didn't have something prepared. Obviously, it was just a question off the top of his head. So I said, let me take a look at it, and I'll find something. And I found something that had some differences between the two. And flexion distraction does work, in my opinion, superior to prone flexion distraction technique gets more decompression than a supine axial distraction. It's just it's more highly targeted. You're obviously working within your palm, and you're able to focus energy, of course, dissipation, but you're able to get more decompression doing it that way. And in my opinion, also, you're able to get the human element, which is important, as far as not only Hey, I'm touching the patient like some sort of magic placebo. But I mean, in terms of actually feeling out the segment, as opposed to just pressing a number on a machine where all of a sudden it goes, and who knows what the patient's feeling at any given time. So you're able to get real world feedback as far as what's going on with the patient. So again, sorry, going off on a tangent a little bit there. But I think, you know, it's always good to say, if you do not have a handy say, let me take a look and I'll get back to you. We're winding down running out of time. For those students who are prospective students thinking of chiropractic, a couple questions. How would you explain to them the importance of being staying up today, being aware of the research on chiropractic today? I think it's the most imperative thing that any student or perspective student or doc can do. Again, because in my opinion, regardless of whether your family practice, subluxation based, muscular skeletal based, extremity based, sports based, you name it, there is research or a supporting organization that is attempting to produce research. The quality of will wildly vary, of course. But it is of the utmost importance, regardless of practice style, to find a company service or do it yourself. Find the research that resonates with your proposed practice style. Get knowledgeable about it because it's going to help you build those relationships, whether it's with a midwife or doula, whether it's with an MD, whether it's with sports hero, surgeon James Andrews. It doesn't matter. They're going to want to ask you questions. And the more knowledge that you have, the better you'll be able to answer those questions, which inevitably serves the patient better. If you were to do it all over again, let's back up before your dad hurt his back. But you know what you know now. What school would you choose? What school would you recommend to students? Wow, that's a tough one. My honest answer would probably be life because I went to Palmer in part because Palmer, Florida was Guy Rieckman's baby. So that was when he was chancellor of Palmer is when I started the idea. Did you go to Palmer or Palmer, Florida? I went to Palmer, Florida. Okay. But I should clarify. I went to Palmer Davenport and I took two classes that I needed to start at Scott Community College, which is right next door. My intention was to start at Palmer, Iowa. However, while I was taking those classes, I learned that Palmer, Florida would be opening. And I previously went to University of Tampa. I loved Florida. So I made the decision to go back down here to Palmer, Florida. And I was one of the first graduating classes from Palmer, Florida. And they had a very interesting approach with everything being, well, not everything, but a lot more focused on digital as well as a different approach to systems of the body. Absolutely. And that sort of went in line with what Dr. Rieckman was trying to do at the time. So he would, you know, Palmer, Iowa has been there a long time. I was saying it's been there over 100 years. And it's difficult to get change. And certainly you don't want to, you know, you want to make sure that you're doing these the best way possible regardless of location. But Palmer, Florida, I feel I felt like he felt, and he might speak otherwise on this, but that it was an opportunity to try some new things and be able to get, you know, an updated approach to chiropractic schooling. Unfortunately, as probably everybody knows, you know, within two semesters of me going there, that was the riff that happened. And he ended up at life. So that's where I would, you know, I would probably lead somebody because I think that he's a great leader. And I think that he, what I see from life as far as getting back to the origins of our conversation, as far as aesthetics and communication and things like that, I feel like it's top notch. I haven't been to school there. So it's very difficult for me to say as far as the education, I know they went through some accreditation issues probably eight years ago. Now it's been a while. But I like what they're doing up there. And I like his approach. And I know that their numbers since he's, you know, become the head of that school have just increased dramatically. So. And if any listeners are interested in learning more about life, I did interview a student there last year, and I'm checking right now. I think it's episode seven or so. So I did interview a student who has recently graduated from life. And it is a gorgeous campus, huge, probably, I think probably the largest school Palmer might be close, but definitely wanted to look at. Well, where can, where can students and doctors learn more about you and follow you? Sure. www.theevidencebasedchiropractor.com. So very simple, very straightforward. And then pretty much any social media backslash the evidence-based chiropractor. So whether it's Twitter or whether it's Facebook, a lot of it's, you know, this, you know, the content is the content, so you can go to any location. But, you know, certainly, you know, we post on Facebook daily, you know, things that hopefully their chiropractors can pass on to their, you know, patients or be used as far as that's concerned. And then also, you know, probably about five days a week, even though the holidays I got, I got, I got a little behind as far as putting out articles and blogs on our website, which is kind of research and marketing based at www.theevidencebasedchiropractor.com. So either location or if they have any questions, concerns, comments, anything like that, I'm always free to chat at www.theevidencebasedchiropractor.com. And I recommend all students follow them online. Also, go to the evidence-based chiropractor and sign up for the student program. Because as students, it's difficult to afford these excellent research briefs, but there's a lot of information there that is really useful. And I find myself going there every once in a while and checking it out. Thank you. Dr. Langman, thanks so much. Hey, my pleasure. Thank you for having me.