 Great, okay, ladies and gentlemen, we're going to move on to the next lecture, and it gives me great pleasure to introduce Dennis Wright, who will be talking to us about the DNA signature of the Dalakash. Let me just get this up here on my screen. Great. So Dennis has been involved in genetic genealogy for quite some time. He was born in New Zealand, and his interest in genealogy began over 40 years ago, following up family stories which led him back on his paternal side to Robert the Bruce, Scottish and English, and ultimately European royalty. So we have royalty in our midst today, so fix your specs on that. On his paternal side, he has battled against an early 19th century brick wall some 40 years ago in New Zealand, but in 2005 it was suggested that DNA testing may help him break through, and indeed it did, but to his surprise, he found his paternal ancestry was Irish and not English, as his name would suggest. So he started the L226 project, Irish Type 3 DNA project, and has maintained a DNA website on the Irish cluster for many years. He's also authored a paper in the spring 2009 edition of the Journal of Genetic Genealogy entitled, A Set of Distinctive Markers Defines a YST or Signature for Gaelic Dalcassian Families, and to tell us all about it, please welcome Dennis Wright. Thank you. Good afternoon. The Y chromosome is passed almost intact from father to son, and so shows the origins of a man's paternal line far back into the mists of time. So I'd like to talk to you today about the Y chromosome studies that revealed the STR and SNP signatures of an old Irish clan, the Dalclish, otherwise known as Irish Type 3. Before we go any further, we need to define a couple of acronyms. An STR is a short tandem repeat, a short sequence of bases that is repeated a number of times. A SNP is a single nucleotide polymorphorism, a change in a single base. DYS is a numbering system for segments of YDNA expressed as DYS followed by a number, e.g. DYS390. Now, a major Y chromosome grouping called R1B is commonly found in Western Europe from Spain all the way up to Ireland, where some 80 to 90% of men are R1B. A very common signature is called the Atlantic modal haplotype, and these are the values of the first 25 markers as tested by the Laboratory Family Tree DNA. As more and more people submitted their DNA for testing, different patterns started to emerge. When compared with the Atlantic modal haplotype, one cluster had two glaring differences. The STR DYS459 was 8.9 rather than the 9.10, and DYS464 was 13.13.15.17 against 15.15.17.17. I found I had these values, and in early 2006, a researcher, Dr. Ken Nordvald, stated that on a DNA forum that he had seen these values before from Claire, Limerick and Tipperary. He identified those that had those values appeared to show a third Irish cluster. We say third because two previously identified clusters, named on the geographical position where they clustered. The Northwest Irish associated with Euneal, and the South Irish, which was possibly associated with the Avalach. So what should we call this cluster? Should it be West Irish or Thamond? I initially suggested Irish type 3, and the name has stuck, and the Claude continues to be referred to as such. The first surnames that were noted were O'Brien, Casey and Crow. Where their origins were known, yes, they came from the counties of Claire, Limerick and Tipperary. As no one else was researching this cluster, I set up a website 10 years ago in December 2006 at the address you see there. As more and more results came in, studying the surnames, we found that the most common names were O'Brien and Variance, such as Brian and Bryant, together with Hogan, Kennedy, McGraw, Casey, Crow. When I studied the ancient Irish pedigrees, I came to realise that the majority of these surnames were Dalcastian, and had a common heritage from around the year 900 AD. The principal Dalcaste family are the O'Brien's, the descendants of the legendary King Brian Baroo. In mid-2008, calculations to determine the age of the cluster were made, which indicated this group was around a thousand years old, which lined up pretty well with the Irish pedigrees. A further calculation using Anatole class of methods in late 2014 on 336 haplotypes of 67 markers gave a more precise age of 1,450 plus or minus about 150 years. It is the most common ancestor of the Dalglace, who was L226, lived somewhere between 350 and 650 AD. While this indicated the approximate time when the cluster flourished, considering how different the STR signature is from other clusters, it was a guess that many centuries had passed since this branch had lent the main fighter genetic tree. Such an event is called a bottleneck, where a previous colony of several or many people reached a situation where only one male from that line has surviving male prodigy, and so all future members of the colony are descended from him, which can mean that the progenitor of the haplogroup may have lived much earlier and so the haplogroup could be centuries older. Where the ancestral origins of my Irish type 3 matches were known, 85% gave Ireland as their origin, and where the county was known, Clare, Limerick, Tipperary and Cork amounted to 71% of those origins. Around this time, Sir Conor O'Brien, the O'Brien Chief of the Clan, is tested and confirmed as being Irish type 3. He is 32nd in the 10th from King Brian Baruch, and this was further proof that this was indeed the Dalhassian STR signature. A lot of it has been found. Several papers were written in the early 2000s attempting to assign STR signatures to Irish clans. In 2008, Trinity College authors Maccaboy, Simpson Bradley published a paper using just 17 STR markers, genetic investigation of the petrolinear kinship structure of early medieval Ireland. It was published in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology. Since the Dalhassian STR signature was by now well known, it came as quite a surprise when this paper stated they could find no distinguishable signature for the ONR or the Dalhassian. The reason the Dalhassian DNA signature was not evident was because of the defining Dalhassian markers 459 and 464 were not among the 17 markers studied. As we have seen, the first 25 markers clearly show the signature of the Dalhplace, and this had been known from early 2006. So I wrote a paper to that effect. A sense of distinctive marker values defines a why STR signature for the Gaelic Dalhassian families. This was published by the Journal of Genetic Chidiology in 2009, and you can see it there. So the Dalhplace STR signature had been established. And here is the full STR signature found for Irish type III and compared with the Atlantic modal haplotype. Quite a few differences, but the two major ones are 459 and 464. But the definition of a hapler group is that it is a genetic population group of people who share a common ancestor defined by a common SNP. In 2006, a SNP M222 had been found that identified the northwest cluster, the O'Neill. From then, Irish type III men had tested all SNPs available, but none were found to define our group. In November 2009, Thomas Cran, then of Family Tree DNA, proposed an extended SNP testing project called WMPH-the-Y. With large sections of the Y chromosome, about 100,000 bases in total would be searched for new SNPs. Several members of the Irish type III cluster invested in the testing of one of our number. And a SNP L226 was found, and subsequent testing proved that this was the elusive SNP we've been looking forward to define Irish type III or the Dauglish hapler group. There are now over 1,000 haplotypes, that is individual test results, with Irish type III signature in my database, and 870 are in the viewable database there. The difference being haplotypes from Sorenson, Ancestry, and some surname projects that don't display the Y-search ID or Family Tree DNA kit numbers that are used to identify each haplotype. We attempted to break the haplotypes into clusters based on STR fingerprints, which we hope would indicate branches that have taken place in the last 1,500 years since the expansion of the hapler group. However, because of back-mute mutations and coalescence, different hapler groups are hard to identify with just STRs. If, for example, we compare the DNA signature of my uncle and myself, we have a genetic distance, a GD of 1 at 25 markers, that's one difference, a GD of 2 at 37, and a GD of 3 at 67 markers. And this is over just three transmission events, and we have the same terminal SNP. But we also have two L226 men, Real and Omani, who match exactly at 25 markers, that is, they have a genetic distance of 0, a GD of 2 at 37 and 4 at 67. This would indicate they are almost as closely related as my uncle and I. However, with SNP testing, they are found to have a common ancestor, have not to have had a common ancestor, for 1,000 years or 40 generations. That is 80 transmission events 40 down each line. This explains why attempting to fit all the Irish type 3 men into groups had limited success. And we needed to find SNPs to actually define each branch. In November 2013 FTDNA launched Next Generation Sequencing, NGS, extending the concept of Walk the Wire and calling this project Big Wire. Full genomes corporation offered a similar test called Wire Lead. Both offered extended SNP testing of the Y chromosome with wire lead covering an even longer section than Big Wire. While testing some 11 to 13 million bases, over 36,000 known SNPs were checked, but more importantly, novel or new SNPs were also discovered for each participant. Initial results for our cluster showed some 20 reliable SNPs parallel to L226 in each participant. We have no way of knowing the order of the appearance of each of these SNPs. That is, if any or all of the SNPs originated before or after L226. However, further testing by other L226 men may reveal more in the future. And the actual fact just last week, I've been advised of a person that seems to have one of the, he's proven negative for L226. However, while Dys459 is different, Dys464 is the same as our group. So he may well come in part way down that list. We'll do further testing there. We then that noted on those first series of men that there were at least two SNPs revealed branching under L226. In the first six men who took the test, FTC5628 was a new SNP that was positive. That is derived for five of the participants, but negative for one participant. This shows that this SNP occurred after all these men gave the L226 mutation, and this particular participant had branched from the main tree very early on. Then of the five men that tested FTC5628 positive, two men test positive for a second SNP DC1. So this SNP falls below FTC5628 and represents a further branch. And a third SNP DC6 was also found parallel to that DC1. It was an exciting time looking through the lists of new SNPs that each of us had. Each person in this first batch tested also had between five and 21 private SNPs. But in the two years since big-wide testing began, 50 Irish Type 3 men have now been tested and there's been an absolute explosion of new SNPs found. We're finding new branches that the majority are being private to that tester, representing mutations since their line led the L226 tree. So looking at the position of L226, under L21, a SNP on the R1B tree that occurred some four and a half thousand years ago, we find the chain of SNPs leads through these ones here, DF13, Z253, Z2534 to L226. So when did we break away from Z2534? In the past two years of testing, we can count up and average the SNPs that have occurred in these 50 men since the bottleneck event. That is ignoring the 20 SNPs that are equivalent to L226. We find it averaged 13.88 SNPs. When divided into the 1,450 years to the most recent common ancestor, we get a figure of 105 years per SNP. If we see, use the same 105 years and multiply by the 20 phytogenetically equivalent SNPs, we get a figure of 2100 years. So as the most recent common ancestor for Delplace lived 350 to 650 AD, they branched from the main tree around 1450 to 1750 BC, 3700 to 3400 years ago. We had always wondered why the Irish Type 3 signature was so unique and unrelated to all other haplogroups. But the fact that we have 20 SNPs in common indicates a long stem with no branching back to the place where the Irish Type 3 left the Y tree. In 2100 years that 70 to 80 generations is certainly plenty of time for this haplogroup to develop such a distinctive signature. Whether this origin occurred in Ireland or somewhere else we begin to discover, we never do so. However this week we found this particular chap who had some of the L226 and not the rest of our markers, will be doing further testing on him and that may well indicate where things have come from. Because this particular fellow presently lives, so his line presently is in 80, but it harks back to France, so it may well have started back there. Initial results showing two branching SNPs, but now the results are 50 big Y tests. We have some 60 SNPs forming some 30 branches as well as hundreds of still private SNPs. Here is a chart of the branches now discovered under L226, with reliable branches in green together with four supposedly less reliable SNPs in pink and two palindromic SNPs in cream. Even though these later SNPs are considered possibly unreliable they do seem to show consistency within the L226 tree. So Conor O'Brien who is 32nd in descent from Brian Baroo represents a confirmed pair degree back to the origins of L226. His line of SNPs from L226 comprised those that we see there. So this we could say is the royal or senior line leading from Brian Baroo born in 941 down to the present chief of the clan born a thousand years later. The next question is can a timeline be constructed for the royal line? SNP counting technique using the data from those that have tested positive for each SNP allows us to construct such a timeline. This is so for larger data sets, but with branches with only two or three samples giving age results that are much less reliable. Unless of course we have good paper genealogy which can confirm the position. Descendants of two O'Brien brothers sons of Sue Edward O'Brien the 4th Baron Egequin born 1800-1803 share a SNP FGC 13418. So this SNP must have occurred prior to 1800 perhaps say around 1780. Naturally there are margins of error of all of these dates, but it gives an idea of when each SNP arose. As Brian Baroo was born in 941 he is likely to be FGC 5628. Some of these dates could be authenticated if we were to dig up a few of the earlier fells of them on and test their DNA. So this could well be a project for the future. In the same way approximate dates for other L226 branches can be estimated again with the proviso that with few samples they give less reliable results and less confirmation can be achieved through known genealogical connections. However estimating dates for a person's private SNPs cannot be achieved as we don't know which order they have emerged. Now that we have identified many of the terminal SNPs below L226 we can then use STR mutations to further define the tree beneath each terminal SNP. Here we have a branch with six men that are confirmed SNP FGC 12296 and a further 10 men expect to be FGC 12296 based on their STR mutations. This gives even greater granulation than just looking at SNPs. And Robert Casey will be talking to this on Sunday. So what further testing should L226 men order? Well an Irishman can be identified in the first 25 markers. So what should he test next? I would recommend extending to 67 or 111 markers because that will certainly help. And if you can afford it the big wide test will identify all your private SNPs and perhaps show matches to other testers' private SNPs so identify new branches. This year FTDNA have released a SNP pack designed expressly for Irish Type 3 it tests all SNPs parallel to L226 all known matches below it and 56 private SNPs found in L226 big wide testers. These of course are only a small selection from the 300 odd private SNPs discovered to date and don't identify each person's own private SNP. They can only be found using big wide or wire leap. The distinctive signature of the job leash lives on in thousands of men throughout the world including my three sons and five grandsons. I'm truly proud to be part of this significant claim. Thank you. Great, thanks very much Dennis. Fabulous presentation and you've done so much work on the L226 project, the Irish Type 3. It's fascinating to look at the history of the project and how it started off before we even had SNPs. We had STO genetic signatures and it was your analysis of those STO genetic signatures back in the days when we used to sweat over a hot Excel spreadsheet for many many hours into the early hours of the morning that allowed us to identify this DNA signature. So questions for Dennis. Has anybody got a question for Dennis? We have one here from Theo Barry. The work that I've contributed to has been suggested to submit my YDNA to YFUL of the Russian testing app. Can you describe what benefit that would be or what they offer over the above say the big wide for FTDNA? The results you get from big wide DNA they will certainly try to provide some matches but I find that most of my matches will tell me that yes they match very closely but they don't match. We don't share L226. To me that's useless because we're going back 1500 years to the very minimum. YFUL looks at things more closely. If you don't have somebody in your project that will actually look at the raw data for you, the BAM data then YFUL for a small fee will look at it a lot more closely and fit you into the photogenetic tree. I think the other big advantage from the point of view of YFUL but I've done it for the Gleason project as well is that it actually gives you a much more user friendly output than the big Y results you get on family tree DNA. It's much easier to see what snips you share with people who are closely related to you on the human evolutionary tree on adjacent branches. It also gives you a much nicer readout of your private snips as well whereas the big Y family tree DNA interface does not do that. You also get 495 STR markers. Now I haven't done very much with those because I think there's some... There's a few that don't quite lie but in general yes that's a great number. The only proviso also that I would put down there is of course any results are only useful if you're comparing them against somebody else and not everybody by long chalk is submitting their results to YFUL so you haven't got as big a database to compare against. The only great big advantage of YFUL is that it will actually date the snips so it will give you some idea of the branching point, the branching time, when your particular branch branched away from the previous one. And we had a question out here from James Irvine. My question has been overtaken by that last answer. I was going to ask you how useful do you think you will be finding in the future if you're not already doing it? The hundreds of STRs that big Y produce Yes I think before you answer that in France I could just come in with another aspect of the YFUL that I mentioned. Yes the usefulness of YFUL very much depends on how many other people keep it. And in some branches it's extremely useful and in other branches frankly it's hopeless. I might also add that FTDNA now with improved expertise the YFUL output is vastly more simple for the layman to understand than it was when we had to wait through it down for a few months. I won't say it's now irrelevant but I think to most people it's a short cut with the vastly improved upper tree use that FTDNA produces. If you could answer my question on the STRs Yes certainly initially we looked at STRs but as I say because of ag mutations and coalescence they really did prove to be useless but now that we have SNPs being defined in much much greater detail we're now able as you saw on that slide able to now look and say alright all these people have the same terminal SNP now let's look and see how those STRs have developed and we can actually put a tree together now. And as I say Robert Casey will be talking to that on Sunday in a much greater extent he certainly moved further along that track than I have and I think that would be good. I'm intending to use just 37 on mine but please let's leave it to Robert. Any comments on that Jen? Yes have you considered looking at the other Royal Family which is the Kennedy Royal Family? No we haven't looked at that at all at this stage. I think some people are looking to make connections to famous people in various places other people are really just trying to find their own position and their own close relatives. In that regard I'm going to just mention to people that here at the back of the room we have a fantastic poster on the Barry family which actually shows every single DNA marker of every branch of the family. And this was put together by Theo Barry and it took him I said days he said weeks. So a huge amount of work fantastic poster and there's another fantastic poster of the Barry family. A huge amount of work fantastic poster and there's another one downstairs. If you haven't seen that please do go and have a study of it. It's fantastic. Now we had a question from Patty and then we go to Den as a brand. Two brief questions really. I'm the administrator of the Clare Roots project for people with Roots and Clare. So far I think I have 25 members for A226 positive. I better check to make sure I've got them all as well then. All of those who have to sit below that are also FGC5660 positive. Is there anybody who branches all between A226 and FGC5660? Yes I think we have one there that's not 5.6. That's pretty rare. It is. And the second project I administer is the Clarence Suriname project. Clarence I think is a good Clare Clare Clarence Suriname. There's a separate set up of each of them with a completely different DNA signature. But most of the Clare Clarences are now matching a large group of butlers. Butler now is a Norman Suriname which I wouldn't expect to have a double Cation. There was apparently a Clarence if we want to call it that who married a male O'Brien. They were O'Brien butlers for many years and then the O'Brien part was dropped. So it's quite likely that that's where that connection came from. Where did the Clarence branch off? I don't know. We have a question here from Dennis O'Brien. Not so much a question as maybe a clarification to avoid with Dennis on this. This STR and S&P thing has been really grinding with me for some time in the O'Brien project. It's only just now that we've got the big whites coming through and we're saying it and I work with DSLs and we're re-engineering. We're going actually backwards now because as Dennis said, once you've got the STP what we've now planned is off. There just happens to be some STR markers that are unique. But before they were obvious this was the problem. You had all these STR markers that really didn't mean a lot. But once you've got the STP locked, then you can go back and I've actually done it with Connors and I've done it with my own family and I'll be showing it to my marker and it's quite interesting but it's going backwards rather than forward. I think I've done the same with my decent project and what I found is that the snips actually anchor the upper branches of the tree and once you've got that anchor there then the STR markers become much more significant and relevant. Is that what you're finding? Yes. In fact there was another branch I haven't put a slide up for this one but there's another branch here very similar which is DC55 and DC50 and DC55 and again when you look at the ones that are tested in green and then all of a sudden you can find all these others that are most likely to and you can almost recommend that that person just test that particular marker and they're likely to fall into that place. And that's what Robert Casey will be talking about during his presentation on the fact that you can actually now look at somebody's STR, well look at their matches based on their STR profile and see what the terminal snips are of their matches and thereby predict what their own terminal snips are to be precisely and this is the way I think we'll be moving in the next couple of years. Definitely. Any other questions? Okay well Dennis thank you so much for a wonderful talk. I know that you've got certain members of your family in the audience. You have a couple of... My son here and two grandsons and granddaughters yes so there's another three that have the marker yes. Okay well ladies and gentlemen, Dennis Ross. Hello.