 Hey, welcome everybody to another episode of the non-profit show. We're thrilled you're here and if you're joining us live It's a Monday Best day of the week. I mean I like to say that every day of the week But today we're gonna really have an interesting conversation with Patricia withington one of the directors over at your part-time controller Trisha's gonna be telling us that yes, we can get on the same page and accounting and development can work together Okay, can they or can't they I can't wait to learn and Mitch. I'm sure you're in the same place Mitch Stein has joined us as one of our new co-hosts say co-host Cohort three times fast not so easy as a man. I Love being in the co-host cohort How you said that so beautifully I'm impressed Mitch Stein comes to us from chariot based in New York And so we are thrilled Mitch to have you with us today as we have this amazing amazing conversation Yeah, thank you for having me and of course Thank you to all of the sponsors that make the show possible So thank you to bloom ring at the American nonprofit Academy the nonprofit thought leader It's a nonprofit show staffing boutique ink your part-time controller 180 management group fundraising Academy JMT consulting and nonprofit tech talk, so we've got quite the line of the sponsors here. Thank you everybody Yeah, thank you, Mitch We do and we're really proud to say that most of these folks have been with us since day one and so that's even more special Patricia withington director at your part-time controller. What the heck are you doing on the nonprofit show on tax day, huh? Glad you said that we don't do taxes How about that? Okay here on fire moment. What do you do? Yeah, we are we we do all the accounting for nonprofit organizations and What they do is taxes is the form 990 of which we prepared for it But they have auditors that do their taxes and that's really for a nonprofit That's the type of tax that a nonprofit submits But as far as personal taxes like all of us that are here today Non-profits don't have to worry about that got for today at least. I love it Well that we could not have had you on on a better day to help explain that I Know Yeah, that's just awesome. Well as part and parcel to this whole conversation We're really gonna be digging down into I'm gonna say it's the age-old conundrum and that is can accounting and development work together and So set us straight Patricia on this and and help us understand like first off Why do we need to know what the different purposes are and how do we even? Begin to respect that even Yeah, that's that's a great question and I hear this a lot In the work that we do with nonprofits And I'm actually a former CEO with two youth development organization and Boys and Girls Club and a big brothers big sisters and I will tell you that It works it can work and we I think both sides actually Compliment each other when you think about it, you know You have the perspective of the left brain right brain and your right brain is your creative your spontaneous your emotional That's your RDS staff. You need them You need them to throw out and talk with donors and talk about your program and then there's the left brain That's your accountants. That's IPTC that's where we come in to do all the analytical work all the organization work all the Structured work, you know, there's financial reports. It's because we're organized and guess who needs to see them both RDS and Your accounting people need to know and understand that and so I really think it's it's a balance When you think of a nonprofit organization as a brain, you need both, you know, look at all of us We need both to function And so I have seen in the two nonprofits that I worked at I encourage the behavior, you know, it's as a CEO It's really tapping into both of their strengths and how you can complement that and We we got along so great, you know, I just can't imagine why it doesn't work because They both have such unique perspectives that you need to see and hear both So I look at it from a complementary standpoint. I Think, you know, the other thing too when you look at the already staff Their function and I talk about respecting their their purpose why they're in the nonprofit Arties getting money in the door You need them. They're seeking what's out there and guess what finance does They get to manage it once it comes in the door Manages what you have if you don't have the money you don't have anything to manage support that You know, it's interesting to me because I think that a lot of times we put pressure on the outside Departments that we work with because we don't understand what their function is and they're just like, you know Why can't you row in the same direction? Why can't you help me fulfill this grant information? Accounting team I need this information and then the accounting team is like Why did they make this commitment? This isn't accurate for accounting. I mean, you know It's just such like a we start out behind the board even the starting line, right? The silo effect and I think there's there's one opportunity that you can kind of blend that Opportunity in the sense of budget development. So in the beginning of the year, you know for for the Organizations that I belong to we always had two members or three members of the board Finance committee and three members of the arty committee, which I was going to talk about a little later But when you're developing that budget you're going to see I need to apply for three or four or five or six or ten grants and guess what The arty staff are going to be working with programs to develop the narrative and that's where you It's all inclusive you include your your finance staff from the get go Who already understands that that money needs to come in the door in order for us to make budget? But you include them in that process and and I will tell you most financial people Because they're so organized They've already got a structure. They've already got a report format They've already got worksheets. I guarantee you that tell me how many staff you're going to need Tell me what expenses they've got a format that you talked to me. We talked to each other You tell me what we need and boom. I'm going to produce this for you So you're pretty much and you've already prepared the budget which is already structured in the format that you're going to be creating So it's it's really 90% there I would think you know so it's it's just another opportunity to work collaboratively and to understand Where everybody's roles are in the process And the other side to that too is when you look at grant reporting. Yes, who does that? Accounting and finance because you're the RDN programs is going to come to us and say, how did you allocate that? You know, I don't know that those allocations are correct Well, yeah, they will be because we're going to work together and you're going to tell me up front Where we know does this grant do program a? Ampey or just program a so that helps in that that Now those monthly journal entries that need to be done when those when that money comes in and oh by the way the expenses You know, we're going to work to set up your GL accounting your systems in your software system so that we can accommodate That appropriately This is the biggest complaint we at your part-time control against is Help me manage my grants. I don't think the allocations are correct. You know, wow though it It's a collaborative very much a collaborative Yeah, and British when you talk about Collaboration like that. I think part of the challenge between those departments is they have totally different language often and they're using different terminology Can you can you talk about some of the ways that we can? Present those differences and reconcile it. What are some of your best advice for communication back and forth between those departments? Well, the biggest thing for us, you know, aside from the different language, you know, the pledge that that's a big one That's different accrual versus cash accounting That's a big one and I think again It's it's understanding the language beforehand in the budget process, but the the other biggest communication Opportunity that I would see is accounting has their system it's usually an accounting system and then the donor or the development side has a donor management system and guess what They don't balance. They don't they don't speak the same language and I think the first thing to do is Let's reconcile these two reporting formats and that was the other thing that I had instituted when I was at boys and girls clubs is I Had the the finance director would give us a monthly, you know report of all the donations grant proceeds everything that came in and We would give it to the development side and actually our development associate did the reconciliation She loved it because it was oh my god I don't remember that one. Oh, I'm so glad we have this. Oh, we need to do this and no by the way They have stuff that maybe accounting didn't get you know when you think about an opportunity to not miss things That's that reconciliation between the two. It's a chance to get together number one Well, where'd you see that? Oh, when did that come in? Oh well that came in on the PayPal account And oh that came in on the United Way report or you know in this day and age with so many Systems that we can use the track donations online through your website through give-by-sell delivering, you know, there's so many platforms now you're bound to miss something and You have no idea. I mean think about that missed acknowledgement letter if we're not reconciling on a monthly basis So that's that's one big way of communication I I just think that there's so many opportunities within the two systems to to collaborate I Know that a lot of the other complaints we get is the lack of integration and And I put that little message out there as well as you know as you're searching for a new donor software Make sure it integrates With your accounting system. I've heard too many horror stories of what they told me it would integrate well, the Platforms idea of integration is yeah, you have to download this report from the donor software and then turn around and upload it So you need a third-party integration tool to try to avoid that one But I think Another opportunity with with these presenting the difference is board training. I think a lot of the Well, my numbers are right and you know, my numbers are right. It comes from the board because the board's getting two different reports Neither one wrong what you need to do is explain to the board donation reports includes pledges and potential money and cultivation that the Rd department has done and the finance department is recording what came in the door Or a pledge that you have envoys So two totally different Let's just say objectives of these I think board member education is a big one Yeah, you know, we don't talk enough about that because I think a lot of boards think that that's already been done And they just sit down they want to look at one piece of paper Maybe two pieces of paper and it's done and on to the next thing I've got to drill down a little bit more with you and ask about like the culture of this and the Frustration and the sharing of knowledge. Do you ever advocate like a standing meeting every Tuesday at 2 so that the two Departments can get together or like how do we institute an Environment so that we are learning each other's, you know language and we're actually Trying to work together or do we just do it case by case as needed because this can take also a lot of time That's a great point and I really believe that that culture that you're looking for starts at the top It's got to start with the CEO the executive director the board to you know, why isn't programs involved in this? You know, why is it just already an accounting because programs is involved in this as well? And so I think With starting at the top of the CEO will CEOs have monthly or weekly director meetings So you've got your director finance your CFO. You've got your development director Always on the same page always say it. Oh, what about this? Oh, you know, that's what those weekly or monthly CEO executive director meetings are for is to start the conversation there I will say that a lot of where you know goes back to the share and compare Where where I see a lot of that collaboration is For example with us with our events You know who was the most organized and getting you know, the When people come in for registration like our not a golf events or our galas My finance people are the most organized and structured people Use their strengths, you know, and so the RD people just loved that they didn't have to sit at that Registration table because the finance people could be there. They're going to get those name tags out there And they're going to get it there quickly, you know, they're going to tell you who's missing They're going to tell you who's that person who's that person and guess what RD gets to do They get to walk around the event and mingle and meet the donors that they may have only met You know on the phone or they just received a check so they're like, I really meet that person, you know So it gives them that opportunity to walk around and meet so it's it's such a collaborative Effort, you know, and I'm going to go back to the budget committee. I wanted to touch on that That's the biggest compromise. I mean we have three members from the RD committee We had three members from the finance They would when budget see there wasn't you know, that's six months out of the year that you're doing budget Well, we always gave RD. Oh, okay. We had a gala last year. We brought in 200,000. We think you can do next year We allowed them to make that decision The CEO and the finance people are not the ones to make that decision. But RD people they're there They're in the thick of things They know how that works. They know what their potential is for the next year And so you've got your finance people that are sitting there hearing the same story the language that you talked about earlier You're learning from both sides But we were very very successful in creating our budget with the help of both RD and finance I think grants. I think another that's another opportunity to collaborate And to share and compare Like we said earlier Programs and the RD people are writing the narrative Binance is there to support you with the that they're quite the budget report You know, by the way, there's a lot of other documents that need to go in that uploading those fight, you know The grant reporting you've got your your current year Financials you've got the budget. You've got the form 990 all of those are your typical tools Well, guess who's got that and could give you that finance So it and then oh by the way, all we asked from finance is can you give me a copy of that grant once it's finished so that I know how to come in and set up the accounting system for you Yeah Yeah Patricia it sounds like one of the most powerful things you mentioned is that monthly reconciliation Where that's like truly can you be more in the state of getting on the same page? Have you have you seen any examples where people have like a little party or like a bagels Bring in bagels or just something to make it fun and like add some flavor so that it's not a boring dry Like tie up the books. It's like no, we're both helping each other and doing something really critical I thought that was like the best thing I'd ever done because I had this this Young young woman that was the associate and she was very eager to to learn everything about the organization And so I said great the first thing we'll learn is about finances and she's like, I don't know anything about it say well welcome to finance and She's learned so much by just having that one-on-one connection with our director of finance. I You know, it was the greatest feeling for a CEO is to make that connection Give them that task to work on and step aside Let them figure that out work together. They would you know, they could do breakfast They could do lunch, but they could sit over, you know, that is lovely finance reports That that our director finance would give her and she would stand through it and say yeah But then she'd find things like other pledges or whatever. Well, she re-invoiced them They haven't come through on their place. So it was a constant constant communication and work and process and and then oh by the way they get to the events and More collaboration more, you know, we loved each other. We were just group huggers. We Everybody got along on the same page. Everyone understand. It's the overall mission of the organization You know, you just bring it back home bring it to why you're there and that all that other Junk, I would say goes away. It really does think about the ultimate reason That you were there in that organization and that those are those constituents that that reap the benefits really yeah, and I Think something that's relevant to what you're talking about that example of your your junior associate that had to take on a Whole new department to learn about finance. What are some of the best resources out there and in both directions? people in the finance finance side wanting to learn more about the development fundraising process and Folks in the fundraising teams wanting to learn more about the accounting and finance process To me the the one way that you can do it is look at like bloom ring I'm gonna do a picture because we use limerick limerick has training Where you can do there and then on your finance side of course YPTC We've got templates. We'd be happy to teach people and we do that all the time and and I have to say the One of the most surprising thing I recently did a call with a potential client This is who they brought on the call to get accounting services their director of development How cool is that? And I complimented that and I'm on that it's like this is fantastic You're already bringing her into the fold from the get-go So that was that was a pleasant surprise to see and I've had that a number of times So there's through both sides It's you know, bloom ring any of your your major donors. They have training get it on the system Learn that system and then vice versa with whatever whether it's quick books online You know, there's opportunities there, but certainly Both both your development directors can do some training as well And by the way bring some of those board members in there to train them make it a make it a big strategic planning party Is to understand both but we at YPTC happy to do that because we're so involved with grant management And that involves a lot of your development people, which is why this particular Pretender client brought their development director in because they have a lot of grants And there's there's all kinds of training like that. We've got a ton of webinars on our website Please feel free to go there Is a great place to find some webinars on this subject You know, I love that you brought this up about the grant management because you know, it seems to me and Mitch I'd love for you to weigh in on this It seems like there are organizations that just have figured it out and they do so well with grant management And then it's like a self-fulfilled prophecy because they're so efficient and they do it so well They know how to manage it more funders are like, wow, they're rock stars will invest with them because they know how to do it And it's just an interesting thing. It's like the haves and that have camps not have nots They have you know, so do you see that Mitch? I mean with with the ecosystem where you are Yeah, I mean if you get More grant funding you can hire more folks to help seek out more grant funding, right? It's it definitely perpetuates But and and to your point about like the capacity and capabilities of managing grant processes and and applying for them And then just being in a rhythm with those funders where you know what they're seeking you build relationships So there's yeah, there's definitely a lot of advantages there And I don't know I I would be curious to learn from Patricia like how you find What are some practical ways that folks on both sides of this divide or hopefully not divide we talked about today Can boost their capacity for grant applications Well, um, there's there's a lot of resources out there like grant foundations I mean we have an internal person that does grant work either through federals. There's research There's a lot of platforms out there that you can research And and I will say that one of the first things I did at one of the The first organization is I sought out a grant to get a resource development person Because I was having to do all that work and so when you can pitch How much the organization can grow? Like having an rd person so that you know before it was on the finance person and the ceo So there's there's some grant opportunities out there that I would start with if you don't have a development person To to write a grant to get and oh by the way make it a three-year grant Because I think that's another big big Mistake that they get a one-year grant and expect that rd person to produce miracles It takes a good three years to get on a platform A donor process going so I encourage anybody that's going to write a grant For a development person make it a three-year grant for at least three years of funding But there's there's a lot of grant resources out there Like I said internally with ybtc We have a person that can do that kind of work He's primarily in federal, but he's now with foundations. So there's You know you look at some of your national resources look at your local resources most of your Community foundations have different grant opportunities, but I would seek ones that cater to your mission Do you know the population that you serve? To look for different grant opportunities Yeah, I think that's brilliant advice and I think that You know just because you're researching something and you can't seem to find it It's okay to call some of those funders and say hey, this is what we need Do you have something that might help us, right? Um because sometimes I think that's some of the magical part Ultimately foundations and funders are looking For solutions to make organizations more sustainable and if they're like holy cow Yeah, well let's we can work on funding that or we can you know It might not be out there on the list when you do research, but I think that's a powerful a powerful thing for all all parties concerned, right? I think another powerful thing to do once you do get that meeting with that funder Bring your finance person in because you know that's the main thing that foundations want to see financial stability And working together and that they're going to get the information that they're looking for because you have those grant reports You've got the grant application And the you know from the start that you can demonstrate That you're a healthy organization and your finance and rd team is working together. Wow. What a message that could send Because that's why do grants default? Yeah, okay. That's like a mindblower. Mitch. I've never heard about that. Have you but I love it Absolutely. Yeah I was curious I was curious too patricia for You know when we've been talking about development and financing and I'm wondering there's probably some people listening That maybe they don't have a finance team yet and they are like a development team of one When is the right time to be bringing in outside help from someone like ypt? See and you know, what is that? The range that you fit well in like what size of organization? Maybe where they're too big and they need their own in-house person Like what's the right sweet spot for you all? Great question. You know for us We we serve all sizes. We you know, there can be some we're starting to help You know some of the smaller ones just give them some resources of how they can get up and running I would say the finance person is probably the first person you want because they need to set up your accounting structure We'll have you but then as you as you grow Then we can be there to support them because you're not going to have all these grants from day one You're not going to have all these donors. So it's a kind of move into that position But I think that your finance people are going to be your first ones because you got to set that up And then you start bringing in your rd staff and then your program staff things like that But your part time controller works with all sizes of organization It really depends on what expertise for a lot of your your smaller ones We encourage you to get an in-house bookkeeper and then we can do the higher level accounting You know, really it's that there's three levels in the accounting. There's the bookkeeping Controller cfo our sweet spot, of course is the controller and cfo levels, but we can do it all You know, especially as you get we can do special projects. We can do interim support But I think as a new organization There's there's a lot of like tech soup is the first place you want to go to get your systems and then from there grow into each one of these I guess Softwares that you're going to need down the line and make sure that they all integrate But we are there to help all sizes of organizations in some capacity, you know Well, I'm sure shea withington. Yeah, you've been great and you've helped us a lot A director of your pipe part-time controller. Check out yptc.com as patricia mentioned, you know This organization has a lot of free resources You don't have to be one of their clients to get this information nor is it gated so From podcast to broadcast and certainly Now five years of content with the nonprofit show We've had a myriad of people on our program and so you'll be able to learn from them and and really get the latest technology and knowledge and even Just approaches to navigate this because this is one of those things that separates, you know, the high performers from the lackluster performing nonprofits. So patricia, thank you. You have been amazing And uh, mitch, I want to thank you. You have been great your first co-hosting day Thank you for having me. It's awesome. It's great to meet you patricia and again Thank you to all the sponsors that made this possible today. So that's blooming nonprofit academy nonprofit thought leader fundraising academy 180 management group your per-time controller staffing boutique jmd consulting and nonprofit tech talk Yes, amazing. This is amazing Yeah, you've been you've been great and I think you helped us understand how we can be working together in a more strategic and natural way Yes What it's been great. Okay, mitch as a first or you know first time or do you want to do the sign-off? Yes, I would love to thank everybody for joining us and from from all of us at the nonprofit show stay well So you can do well Hey, thanks everyone. Have a great day