 knowledge. And we were getting a lot of requests that on YouTube, we can find all sessions on different aspects of law. But there is one service law aspect, which you normally don't find, you find one particular session, etc. But be that as it may, we had requested Mr. P. S. Raja Gopal and Thiru Krum and his associates were kind enough to connect with Mr. P. S. Raj Gopal at 1.9. Therefore, in this legal journey, we have connected together to take a series. Approximately, it will be more than 10 sessions. And those who are connected with us or those who have missed it can always connect with us to have the latest updates of service law aspects more so. And other issues which we'll be taking on the Beyond Law CLC. And those who have missed the earlier sessions of Mr. P. S. Raj Gopal or for that matter, all other speakers can like, subscribe and share to that channel of Beyond Law CLC to understand how the legal journey by Beyond Law CLC to decimate knowledge not only on law and beyond that, different soft skills have also been explained. One issue since we are taking the series in a chronological manner, we thought why not take a particular session in this way so that we can understand right from the basics how the service law is introduced. Therefore, the sources of service law is the topic for today wherein we discuss ACT, rules, executive instructions, circulars and office orders. The meticulousness of Mr. P. S. Raj Gopal and understand that we had placed all these words in different patterns. He said no, this is not the way it has to be put in a chronological manner. You can have alphabets, but to make it a word and a sentence and then paragraph and then what they say the story and the journey of service law, it has to be In a short one minute, he told me that what is the relevance of drafting for any particular aspect, be that as it may, even of a flyer. Without taking much time, we will ask Thirupikram who is a knowledge partner with us today to in the end of the session to say issues. Since people are waiting to have the trigger off as they say the launching pad for the service law series and we are always indebted and will continue to remain indebted to Mr. P. S. Raj Gopal, who always shares his knowledge, be that as it may, even on the latest judgment, if we say by Monday, sir, we want a session of private ministry. He has been kind enough. So akin to his name, he's the king of hearts and continues to share his knowledge. What do you say? Mr. Vikas Thirupikram and colleagues in the profession and those of you who are not advocates who have joined this when Vikas requested me that I have to be a series on service law. First, I was perplexed because most of us know and most of you know service law is mostly a lawyer made law, I would say, and then judge made because lawyers would have argued and judges would have, if it has appealed to them, they would have incorporated objectives. But then I found the two lawyers have been largely responsible for development of service law. Basics of this are elsewhere. Therefore, I said we start with sources of service law. Now to why I'm starting with the sessions. There are different sources like, of course, source for all laws in the country is the constitution. Then within the constitution or within the framework of the constitution, various other enactments are made by the legislation. Within the delegated powers by the legislative enactment, statutory rules are made and then comes executive instructions, office orders, circulars, office memoranda, a plethora of sources are there. Therefore, the hierarchy of these sources which would prevail over the other is most important. Therefore, I thought we will start from sources of service law. Then we will go into the individual aspects for the particular subjects within the broad canvas of service law. Before we go into the question as to the sources of service law, I would like to broadly place before you the three different branches of or three different shades of employment we see in the country. First of course, going by size, the largest is the employment and the private sector. Then comes the employment and the public sector corporations, government controlled bodies which are not statutory and then I would say service is under the government. Now about 25 years ago if you had asked me, classify the employment. I would have first created the government service, then I would have come to the public sector employment and then of course the other bodies. Now though the government is huge, governmental organizations are huge. The employment under the government is dwindling, governmental sector also is dwindling and simultaneously there is a growth in the employment under the private sector. Therefore, I have changed the order based on numerical strength. A few words I should say at this stage about employment under private sector because though it is the largest employment provider, there is not much of service law in so far as employment under non-state sector is concerned. There those employments are governed by straight and simple contractor. If it was pure and simple contract also it would have been tolerable for the workforce but there is one important hindrance when it comes to service law under a private employee that is non-enforcibility of contract of personal service. Now in the under the specific performance act the specifically fact contracts of personal service are not specifically enforceable. No cow can grant a decree of specific performance or of contractor compliance. Therefore, if an employee is wrongfully terminated it can at best be treated as breach of contract and what the employee or ex-employee would be entitled to will only be damages. Therefore, the services under the private employer cannot strictly and so be said to be called by service law. It is called by contract law or law of contracts in which the enforceability of contract of personal service is also virtually negated by section 14 of the specific relief act. But one exception which may give rise to a larger quantum of damages is that even in private sector an unconscionable contract which is opposed to public policy has laid down by section 23 of the contract act that would not be countenance even in private employment. This difference between contract of service the this emphasis so unconscionable terms in contract even in private employment under the contract act has been highlighted by Justice Madan in a case arising from termination of a public sector employee not in the this that this has not come in any private sector employment case and subsequently the law laid down in central inland water transport corporation limited versus Rajanath Ganguly that has been extended to commercial contracts also where the courts have perceived that the bargaining power between the two parties is unequal. This has nothing to do with our main discourse on service law but I thought it is necessary to emphasize the difference because as practicing advocates we come across many times particularly from this software sector and then where it is totally unorganized because they think that if I get organized organizational strength will weaken my career progression that instinct of selfishness is more in the so-called white color or gold colored employees. It is not that much in blue colored employees but economic reality in the country is that slowly they are also moving in organization. Therefore as advocate you will be facing daily sir I have been dismissed from service I have been asked to resign this is the most common feature of easing out an employee in private sector these days they will call the employee ask him to sit in a virtual guest chamber like what I can say a torture chamber and until they sign on the resignation letter they would not be allowed to go it is virtually confining an employee and extracting a resignation letter from those all those cases are coming to the advocates. The first thing we have to tell is look you cannot go to high court you will have to go to the civil court even if you go to civil court you cannot get re-employment all in the same employer all that you can get is damages if you are willing to fight for the future. That is about contract-based service now coming to garment and garment and sector here we have very varied sources of law first of course is the constitution of India then the enactments then the regulations are in that order now what are the constitutional provisions in so far as service under the state is concerned when I say services under the state state is used in an expanded larger meaning than what then either state government or the union court there are two distinct parts dealing with services under the state within the constitution first is part three part three deals with fundamental rights then is part 14 part 14 deals with employment under the state and union governments under the the order used there under the union government at the state government part three and part 14 of the constitution govern the entire source of fundamental law or basic law or ultimate law whatever name you can give it is the fountain head of all laws any law contrary to or any rule contrary to part three of the constitution in respect of public employment that is under the governmental sector but not strict presence within the government the part three of the constitution is the source of strength in law for the non-state government and non-central architecture and when it comes to government the government employees part 14 is an added safety net against exploitation and victimization about 50 60 years ago victimization was a warrant which was more found in labor law than in service law but today in the service law we come across more and more cases of victimization therefore victimization is something that is safeguarded against in both in part three and part 14 why I say constitution is the basic law is it is the source of all laws that is number one second article 13 article 12 article 13 both of which are part or part of the part three of the constitution they are very very significant in so far as service jurisprudence is good article 12 defines state what is state by article 12 state in this part of the constitution is relatable to or in so far as part three of the constitution is concerned it includes and there is a definition is inclusive kindly note that it is inclusive definition and what it says is in this part of the constitution in this part unless the context otherwise requires state includes kindly note the word improves the parliament of India the government the government and the legislature of each of the states and all local or other authorities within the territory of India or under the control of the government of India when his local authority is automatically a state then anybody though it is not a local body it may be a business organization like airport authority of India or it may be a commercial like organization like oil and natural gas corporation industrial finance corporation or nationalized bank or even central inland water transport corporation or state road transport corporation all these statutory bodies at once come under the net of article 12 then there are certain bodies which are not statutory bodies like say institute of public input is there are the indians of science in bangalore which is not a statutory body it is a society registered as society's registration or a postgraduate institute of medical sciences Chandigarh I do not know whether it is a statutory body to my knowledge it is also a first it was started as a society now I don't know with the corporatization whether it has been now registered as a company or something like that but it started as a society then all India Institute of medical sciences it also started as a society now there is of course AIMS act also all these bodies though technically they are autonomous societies registered under the respective state enactments dealing with society's registration every one of them become a state if state is having overall control over the affairs of those bodies all such bodies fall within the scope of article 12 once that body becomes the state as defined under article 12 then our first source of law is article 14 which guarantees equality before law article 16 which guarantees equality in the matter of public employment article 19 which guarantees six freedoms to the citizens then article 21 which protects right to life and liberty article 23 which is injunction against exploitation then part four also because though article 12 in its definition of the state does not include chapter part four of the constitution supreme court by interpretation has said though directive principles of state policy are not independently enforceable they can be enforced as part of part three therefore though article 12 by definition does not include these bodies as state for the purpose of chapter part four by virtue of inter linkage between the fundamental rights and directive principles of state policy what are the directive principles of state policy people prefer equal work article 39d then rule against exploitation providing human working environment or for that matter the statute of right and prohibition of sexual harassment at workplace site all these things are relatable to part four and they can be enforced as part of part the distinction between services under the state and the state sector then boils down to applicability of part 14 part 14 there is a see at the craftsmanship of the constitution look at article 12 coming under part three defines state the word state inclusively the intention of constitutional constituent assembly is that enlarge the scope of state so that larger segment will get larger segment of the workforce will get protection of non-discrimination non-arbitraryness equality but when it comes to part 14 the state is defined as the states included in schedule one to the constitution excluding jammu and kashmi now i don't know jammu and kashmi is excluded then also now also but as three different territories therefore by definition part 14 is not applicable to anybody except the government employees of the state and the center and restricted to those territories which are scheduled in schedule one there certain very special provisions of protection are there first is article 309 that is that is service condition should be gone the president or the governor they can make the rule in the absence of a legislation and if legislation enters they decide to have most important protection under article 311 under chapter 14 part 14 comes under article 300 that is no civil servant shall be dismissed removed or reduced in rank except after folding an inquiry in accordance with principles of natural justice natural justice is not a phrase used in the article 311 but the seeds of the natural justice is found in part 14 part 14 says the inquiry has to be held giving a reasonable opportunity to the government support that reasonable opportunity has been expanded new dimensions have been added and innovative concepts have been built into that reasonable opportunity by advocate made in judgment of basic law remains what is made by the constitution that is reasonable another aspect of article 300 is that the reduction in rank or removal or dismissal of a government servant can occur only at the hands of appointing authority this is a function not delegatable to anybody else by the appointing of course there are various service rules which say that he can be dismissed either by appointing authority or by an authority to whom it is subordinated this dismissal discharge and reduction in rank only at the hands of the appointing authority is something that is not available under chapter under part 3 thanks to justice tinnopretty he said in UP state warehousing corporation tinnopretty versus Vijay Narayan watch page where he said I find it I find it indeed hard to find out any difference between an employee of a statutory body like UP warehouse and corporation and the employee has gone therefore I can extend the principles underlying part 14 by resort to article 14 15 and 16 to public sector employees that is the starting point of development of service law in so far as public sector is concerned. Earlier to that it has been said in Sukhdev Singh where the question of employees of YNGC, IFCI and one more organization came up for consideration but succinctly it was justice tinnopretty who stated in Vijay Narayan watch page case that there is no distinction between a public sector employee and a government employee in so far as constitutional value service then comes the rules made by the statutory body or by the legislature or by the government in exercise of its statutory powers in different states different mechanisms have been evolved to lay down the conditions of service of government until about three decades ago it was governed by the rules made by the president of the governor under Proviso to article 302 then the legislature took over the states made cities the state civil services act whereby governor was denuded of the power to make service rules and it was left to the executive to make rules under the state enactments but that is not a major change because whether it is governor or government or president of government it hardly matters as justice tinnopretty as justice krishnagar said in famous maru ram's case which dealt with power of border he said governor is shortened form of the government therefore governor cannot act except on the advice of the cabinet therefore governor and government it doesn't make much of a difference on that we will not bother too much then in the absence of statutory rule or a rule made under article 309 or a rule made by the legislature we have the rules called government orders issued under article 162 in respect of state government employees and government orders issued under article 73 in respect of the central government of them these are issued either in the name of the governor or in the name of the president but by the executive gun depending upon whether it is state or whether it is sent but nonetheless they are called executive instructions or administrative instructions then we have this a strange type of source of law circulars at one point of time circulars were held to be unenforceable at one point of time circulars were circulars were berated by the courts saying that they are inter-departmental communications then the things slowly changed for the first time in K.P. Joseph Supreme Court said office memoranda are not statutory rules they are generally not enforceable but if it gives a right to an employee or cash on obligation on the employer then the rights and obligations created by that OM are enforceable subject to one condition that is it shall not be contrary to any superior law then the very interesting question came for the first time before the supreme court in Gundachar's case which went from the then Mysore High Court the question was whether Mysore state road transport corporation a corporation established under road transport corporations act 1951 whether it can make appointments in the absence of regulations made under section 45 of the road transport corporation of course similar question had arisen in the government and service in B and Nagarajan first time again a state in again a case which went from the state of Mysore we are given a lot of contribution we have made a lot of contribution to this law in B and Nagarajan while dealing with the state services under the state supreme court said in the absence of rules made under article 309 orders can be issued under article 162 by VARF executive instructions laying down recruitment room phase scale everything pertaining to service conditions but once rule is made under article 309 that cannot be breached by executive instructions then in Gundachar's case the Mysore High Court that is my high court presently known as Karnataka Hitham it had held that road transport corporation cannot make appointments except after making the regulations supreme court said no power to appoint is inherent in the corporation because corporation has to function it cannot function without employees and whenever a new corporation is formed it takes time to make regulations put in place the regulations made under the road transport corporation until then you cannot say that artistic buses would not fly would not fly buses have to fly it has to serve its objective the corporation has to function therefore by passing a resolution and making an administrative instruction corporation can make the effort therefore what emerges from the law is in the absence of a statutory rule or a legislative rule executive instructions can be issued but as the supreme court cautioned in Santram Sharma where there is no statutory rules executive instructions can govern the field and Santram Sharma was a case where there were rules made but there were gaps supreme court said to fill the gaps executive instructions can be issued therefore ultimately what the supreme court said is executive instructions can supplement the rules but they cannot supplement the rules then the question of filling up the gaps or issuing clarifications is a very interesting case arose under granted court normal judicial view is that grant in court granted court is a set of administrative instructions which are not enforced therefore you can make a law by way of code or codal provisions their adherence to that would be at the mercy of the government if the government pleases it cannot go into it if the government is not pleased to adhere to it in my case alone though it is violating of Article 14 I cannot complain because granting it code is not this was to a large extent blasted out of the field in one case arising under grant in court from the state of Karnataka Indian their appointments were had been made by a private education institution strictly in accordance with provisions of the grant in court the government directed that their appointments is not in order therefore their services are to be terminated it was a granted institution the matter issued supreme supreme court said appointments have been made in accordance with the terms of the grant that is granted in court now your case that is the case of the government is appointment is contrary to clarification issued by the director of obligated special or director of public instruction as the case may be supreme court said two things about power to issue clarifications first thing is the parent rule should provide for such clarifications being issued can you mark the difference between article 162 article 73 on the one hand and these lesser legislations and the other when it comes to article 162 it has been held to be an inherent power of the executive government to issue instructions in the absence of such rules or to fill the gaps in the state when it came to granting it for supreme court said whether granting it provides for issue of such clarifications that is the first question second question is who can issue the clarification assuming that there is a power to clarify power to clarify supreme court said west in the person competent to make the court itself since the court is made by the government directly has no power to issue any clarifications this now see the different the hierarchy of these sources of law basic law is constitution then is legislation that is enactments made like road transport corporation third is subordinate legislation or delegated legislation which has come in the form of rules and regulations you can use the word rule or regulation depending upon the word used in the parent enactment stricto sensu there is not much of a difference then the administrative instruction then the clarifications then circulars all these are sources of service and remember most important source of service law is judgment law which I said is with the assistance of the advocates now let us take what is the hierarchy hierarchy of these laws have been laid down in paul ram krishnaya paul ram krishnaya i was discussing with my colleague just before i appeared before you paul ram krishnaya did not say anything different nor it did not say anything innovative it only summarized what the supreme court has been telling from bm nagaraj paul ram krishnaya supreme court very clearly laid down the hierarchy of the eminence or which will have precedence over the other first is constitution because article 13 says anything contrary to the spark of the constitution will be void and law is defined such inclusive to include bylaws rules regulations customs and usages also because those of you who are slightly older maybe a little younger to me also present day generation would not be knowing this because they are they have not heard them there used to be what what was called customary bones in industries puja bonus particularly in west bengal then festival bonus in some of the states these were not governed by any settlement or rule or law but they were customary rights then usage is also law under article 13 subject to the condition when usage can be law is it should not be unlawful it should be front times for quite some time custom has to be of a immemorial vintage usage need not be of immemorial vintage but it must be of reasonably sufficient long period it must have been all these are sources of all but when it comes to which gets precedence over the other follow run specially of principles of first constitution then parent act parent act means let us take banking companies acquisition and transfer of undertakings 1969 or 1970 or 1980 board of directors of each bank he is empowered to lay down regulation to lay down by regulations terms and conditions of service of its employees but that section section 19 originally did not authorize the boards to make regulations with retrospective effect so a bank's board makes a regulation with retrospective effect it will be white as being without power second restriction is for the purposes of giving effect to provisions of this act or in consonance with the provisions of this act therefore if any subordinate legislation or delegated legislation like a regulation is contrary to the parent act that is the empowering act then act will prevail and regulations to the extent of being contrary to it will have to therefore constant assembly then legislature then the delegated legislator are delegated legislation fourth is executive instructions it is not only in the government even in the non-governmental public sector also the circulars are there they are called by different names in different organizations ultimately they are all executive instructions or administrative instructions then come the clarifications of this this is the broad hierarchy article 13 specifically declares any act which is contrary to this part will be void therefore it is the most superior law when we have serviced the practitioners or shown a rule or are shown an office brand we have to apply these steps whether it is contrary to the constitution whether it is contrary to the parent act whether it is ultra where is the parent whether it is contrary to any other higher rule that is which ranks higher in judicial precedence and then take a call as to which would prevail therefore friends there are virtually I can say broadly five or six sources of service law and each has its utility precedence and limitations ultimately please do not tell anybody that as one of the senior councils whom I admire and adore he told me once that Rajagopal most of the people feel service law is a lawless law because there is little law and enormous interpretation I said sir it is not lawyer's law it is it is not lawless law it is lawyer's law it is a challenge to the lawyers and it is the lawyers who make the service ultimately seventh source of service law is you and me these are the sources of service law these are the picking order of various instruments in service law and then of course we deal with various there is one more aspect of service law which is applicable to every employee every wager they are again legislative instruments like payment of payment of bonus act has gone into it has gone into dustbin of history therefore it is no longer available to most of the people and then we have applied state insurance employees provident fund these are all these are all legislative pieces of course in dealing with PF Act and the Gratitude Act one more thing will have to be borne in mind if anybody under service conditions has higher benefits of these two enactments the employee is entitled to enjoy that higher benefit but what the payment of Gratitude Act and the PF Act says is the minimum then we have minimum wages act in fact till very recently I was under the impression that minimum wages act has no relevance to service it is only relevant to labor law but recent trend is you see any government including the central government they all they all claim to be very so their welfare government for the common man for the they are all the governments of the bosses giving holiday to park 14 and park 3 they are employing contract labor therefore now contract labor regulation act also will be applicable then sometime the daily wages fixed by the government to those contract laborers is less than the minimum wages therefore minimum wages act also will have these are broadly the sources of service law now Mr. because I think I should close and RDN should start sir I will only say that once you speak and reminded that what we read in the childhood times by pepper of hamlin though it had a longer connotation but the way you spellbound everyone you take everyone to the thought to the well but to the deeper oceans of life and how to pick up the pearls that is one aspect like we did in the previous sessions you have already shared the knowledge we will share a few questions from answers from you like all they say that service law is a big ocean with your vast knowledge what tip would you like to give to them that how to pick the pearls of wisdom and how to place them in the dropping I agree that service law is a very huge subject and sometimes it depends on the concept of justice which a judge has in his mind each judge I was confronted with the same question as a nuclear physics student when I was doing my MSc in nuclear physics my professor said nuclear physics is a very vast subject and you are going out of this university as a master in nuclear you should be able to tell when you go out I know sir nuclear physics to the extent it is contained in Kaplan Kaplan was one of the most famous authors of survey the nuclear physics like that there are different books I personally adore services under the state by Justice Ramajoy's not the later edition which was edited by Indian Law Institute but earlier the edition earlier if you read one such textbook you would be able to tell at least that I am not I know I know service law to the extent it is discussed in justice now I think the latest that is a Justice Ramajoy's book is this world you can see with great difficulty I am holding the pages subsequent edition has come which Justice Ramajoy himself did not like now the book that gives you a broad scope and broad understanding of service law is law relating to public service by Samaraj is the fault in which all basic concepts have been discussed and it is used as a reference book by most of the judges I don't think that even that book is uploaded because every day the norms are changed therefore keep one such book of a learned author for example in departmental enquiries B. R. Gaye is an authority now it is in two volumes I think when I started as a student of law it was only in one one now it has gone into two volumes it will be growing all that I would like to tell you is that pick up the concepts by reading a short book like Justice Ramajoy's or Samarajitapal that will give you an insight also when you come across a problem where to find a solution that solution may not be in Samarajitapal but Samarajitapal helps you to find a solution being a student of nuclear science you have told what is the rocket science to understand the law in the right way and so the next question would be like we have taken from the other persons how to understand or how to build that mindset to interpret in the two different ways just like in mooting they are told that for the same proposition you can think both ways how to develop that mindset that is that deliberately I am not taking the other questions today because I feel that these students young lawyers would like to understand like to recommend my say I would put it this way when a brief comes to you normal tendency is to look to the strengths of the case what are the strengths on which I can succeed in this case I think that is a wrong focus first priority should be to find out weaknesses of your case once you find an answer to those weaknesses then you can locate the strengths and build on them same now this leads to the a very critical thinking if you want to imagine the weaknesses of your case which is difficult because our kids are according to the champions there is no weakness in my case but by looking to the weaknesses what would be happening is you would be trying to decipher what the case of the opponent would be because the respondents brief starts after the court admits your case unfortunately we are not in CPC region when you go to the high court or when you go to the administrative tribunal our first opponent will be bench itself they will start asking what is your life then comes the respondents council therefore first thing what the respondents council would think to oppose your case then you draft your pleading that is how you can make your case that much more foolproof and you would be able to understand and assimilate both points of view and you would be ready beforehand to know the opposite person's case and keep your ammunition ready to demolish therefore if a respondent comes to you think as petitioner scouts if a petitioner comes to you initially think as respondent scouts that is very essential for you to first formulate your case then develop your case then argue the case so that judgment will be delivered somewhere near your expectation I don't say somewhat favorable to your client but somewhere near your expectation because what we tell the client and what we know as the strength or weakness of the case sometimes there is a divergence just three days ago I had a case under commercial by the time half none of the company came I had prepared a two-page note as to how why their their case should be dismissed the moment they came I gave copy of that note to the person leading the team on behalf of the commercial letter price and tell and told him go through this note and tell me if I have understood your case first if I have not understood your case correct me on facts after so doing answer me the questions I have posed with you they are happy they know what is their case then to my surprise the chief executive of that company gave me answers which satisfied my questions slightly above 50% then I said I will try to argue your because it is an argument don't think as a petitioner don't think as a respondent who is your client first think of the opposite parties case then you are through that is the only way we can analyze the case we can say that we should start developing the art of reverse thinking and then start structuring our arguments yes it is more or less like reverse reverse the auction is there now yes now next question would be how to funnel the arguments or how to structure the arguments once the case comes that is a difficult question to answer because my personal view is quite different from normal thinking before you take for example to in some temples you have to take ladoo and ladoo prasachadamika in some cases in some temples you have to take carry water because you will be in some temples you have to take sorry these are the things we should please that god or goddess you would have known the law and at some places oil oils yes we should also know the thinking of the judge I am not casting aspersions and in it for example each judge will have his thinking process which may be different from other judges thinking process therefore first identify in terms of thought process of the particular judge which is the argument that is that is likely to appeal him to most you might have 10 points to argue you would have made a note and these days making note and going to the court is very easy because you have computers then you can make corrections and all that when we started it was difficult because we have to make handwritten note and take it without a note I have never argued a matter even at this age also notes sir without arguing more notes will come after before I combination of Saraswati and Lakshmi yes it will come and this is the only profession because where Lakshmi and Saraswati live together because if you are strong in your profession in your concepts concepts presentation money will automatically otherwise general thinking is that Lakshmi and Saraswati they never live together no that is a totally inapplicable to profession of law this is the place where both live together books will live with bundles books heaps of books tons of books will also live with bundles of of course I only hope that government is not hearing to think that I am having lots of I just correct the last part but government will not think government knows it they know that you have pearls of knowledge and the ocean is full of pearls only at your place then there is one thing I in fact I have told some of the judges yes judge will ask your first ground is this you have raised in the petition then I would tell I am not going to argue that ground yet they are the threshold go to ground three when I drafted the petition so and so was the judge therefore first ground is the ground that would have appealed to him now the roster has changed third ground is what I would urge before this court then one judge asked me why I said that when I go to Vishnu Mandir I cannot make Sivastati I will have to recite Vishnu has now then only I will get the take all grounds in your pleadings which ground you would project would depend upon which is the latest judgment which would be still green in the memory of every judge whether any point is there in your pleadings which would fit into that second is conceptually which concept of justice is dearest to this judge something that happened 35 years ago I will tell one judge very learned very noble judge of my high court he had a view widows are ill-treated class it was true by accidental sleep for I don't know in what context the Appalachian council said malod widow then the opposite man had to show malod there is no widow in this case at all see that is what would be received instinctively by the court we should try to pull that ultimately we may lose we may not win on that point we may mean of win on a different point but you should have created an attentive mind in the judge to hear your case first ground need not always be the best ground though it is said so but the first five minutes of your submissions if you cannot interest the court forget about winning the case after five five days of arguments whether it is final hearing whether it is hearing whatever it is whatever you are stated is that once you go to the court just remember that old song you will climb the ladders when you go to the you have the best of the diocese I'll ask you to we thought that you share so much knowledge questions once we take these entire series it will continue what do you think from thank you very much because sir I have no words to say extremely erudite and intriguing presentation as usual and this piece will go on for a few more days that is the best part of it so once again sir thank you so much on my personal behalf and on behalf of Beyond Law CLC it was a great presentation great opportunity for all of us to learn more and more thank you sir and my special thanks to Ashwini Rajgopal madam and Mr. Jainth office of senior advocate I also extend my thanks to Mr. L Nuhaspabu former chairman of the Karnataka State Bar Council present member who has logged in what's the name now she was told that he is he will not be able to unmute and speak once again thanks to all the participants and a special thanks to our champions because Chhatrat for all his efforts thank you so much thank you also how do you Ashwin thank you friends for having connected with us it's always a pleasure hearing Mr. Rajagopal and it's because sir if you could ask Ashwini madam to share few words I have asked her to unmute no no she is switched on her video I think you give her the option for the second not unmuting herself Ashwini madam can you come on the screen so nothing much to say sir thank you very much I think you have the other speaker has to be switched off two gadgets have been switched on I guess that once you have a father who is a larger than life image how do you learn from him and how do you come out of that larger than life image yes sir you should give her a yes two gadgets have been switched on so your voice is echoing sir could you please repeat the question because of the I am saying that once you have a father who is known larger than life image for his knowledge how do you because this is like people say that once it is the second generation it's easy but how do you contain how do you maintain your separate niche like what you have done what lessons you have learned from your father to create your separate niche because they say under because sir there is a technical glitch at your end we are not able to hear you I don't know what happened I think there's a I think what Mr. Vikas is trying to convey is sir is such a personality with you know we cannot explain in births and having him as a father so what would you say and what is the learning curve that you have experienced as a daughter as well as a junior of the senior sir we specifically make it a point to keep a personal and professional relationship separate so once we are in office or in court I am as good or as similar or equal to any other colleague in the office and there is absolutely no distinction if we work as a team and if sir sir treats us all equally and the knowledge sharing and the what would I say the expectations are the same so there is no distinction no difference and it's all a process of learning so there is nothing special it's that you do your own work and the guidance is always there. Mr. P. S. Rajagopal Sachin once he has delivered the entire lecture on article 14 he keeps in mind that article 14 is better doubt though it's a private sector that works out to the right way absolutely sir absolutely. I will ask sir is I will like sir also to pitch in because it's a rare occasion where people are connected together Rajagopal sir how do you maintain that balance because this is also a challenge for any good professional when their child comes in the profession how that within that they say all under a good tree or a good bunion tree the normal tree doesn't grow so how do you create this that the person can create her space like Ashwin so you will have to unmute yourself. No I can say one thing equality practicing equality has been an instrument of faith with me this I learned as a student and by watching the society say I come from a rural background where in a family there used to be five six seven eight brothers each one of them is having equal number or little lesser number of children and the way my grandparents they would treat everybody equally it was amazing if one half of that do is given to one child every child will get only one that one half one no grain more no grain less and if among the children they would share they would tell and you you like this item more therefore you have little more equality the inequality my parents or my grandparents were not creating it was sharing was with love so that those that the person who is in a greater need would get it that is how I have been managing in fact my first advice to my daughter was not to join the office but when she persisted I said be prepared to face the wrath of my discipline in the office because because you are my daughter I will not scold you less but you may be getting more school more scoldings than others will get that is how I have not arisen any expectations enough that should get a preferred treatment in this office and I've been able to maintain it by the grace of God because if I can't practice article 14 I will have no conviction in arguing for article so you have to get that constitution we have to leave constitution generally we can become the lawyers arguing on constitutional values if I am bygones I cannot argue for purity in public in the personal life therefore that is most important and somehow it has come I would thank my God for that because it is very easy to be going into the trap of personal likes and dislikes that we cannot afford to have in our office everybody is equal even amongst the clients so reasonable classification and so reasonable classification and intellectual I said reasonable classification and intellectual being tightly carved out in the office that reasonable classification it is likely to end up as unreasonable classification therefore in some areas it is better to maintain wouldn't fail it so we end up with a lighter note and it is always a pleasure hearing sir and tomorrow before we wind up we should extend our thanks to honorable judge who has joined the name is not visible so it was just justice so we would extend our many thanks to the honorable judge that's true and that is the only way we can do justice for the part that is anonymous but we pay his regards pay our all regards for his participation that gives the right impetus and or the right catalyst to move forward for the sessions and that is the way that we have been able to do more than 500 webinars and tomorrow we have a more specific relevance would be on the civil civil courts that is by S.S.S.Somashekhar who's connected with us tomorrow at 6 p.m.