 So, hello everyone, and a very warm welcome to this, the International Perspectives panel discussion. My name is Sarah Hilda Lee, and I work for the Daisy consortium, where I manage inclusive publishing and international news and information hub on all things accessibility. So I'm really delighted to be moderating this panel today and my thanks to the nails team for bringing together such an excellent group of international speakers, from whom we can learn so much. So we're going to have about a 40 to 45 minute discussion here centered on accessible books and publishing in these various different markets, and we'll follow that with a 10 to 15 minute question and answer session. Before I begin, I'd like to ask our panelists to introduce themselves. For those of you watching it you can find full bios on the accessible publishing website. But for now Christina perhaps you'd like to get us started with a quick introduction. Thank you very much. I'm Christina Musinelli. I'm the secretary general of the foundation. I work in accessibility since a long time now, and I'm also involved in the standard organization like W3C and Daisy and for the other organization involving accessibility. Thank you Christina that was perfect. Agatha over to you. My name is Agatha Merva Montoya, and I'm lecturer at the Department of Media and Communications at the University of Sydney. Before that I was publishing manager at Sydney University Press where among other things I led the implementation of accessible publishing practices. I've been involved in various accessibility initiatives in Australia, the Australian Inclusive Publishing Initiatives since 2018, the Accessibility Initiative Working Party of the Institute of Professional Editors since 2020, and more recently the Roundtable on Information Access for people with print disabilities. And I'm currently working on a couple of research projects on accessibility implementation and I'm delighted to be here. Thank you. Agatha, thank you. Issa, your turn. Hello, I'm Isadora Kau. I'm from Brazil. And I work at Buquire Brazil. I'm a data analysis manager. And I actually got in touch with accessibility when I went to the TechFar event in Canada. And then I started a project at Buquire to encourage our publishers in Brazil to make accessible eBooks from the beginning, not only by demand, which was the case before. Thank you. Finally, let's hear from Stacy. My name is Stacy Scott and I have recently been made accessibility manager at Taylor and Francis Publishing. Before that, I was the service lead for RNIB Bookshare here in the UK. I worked in education and international development for several years with site savers, working in a number of fantastic countries. It's a pleasure to be here at the panel today. I also am the chair of the Accessibility Action Group for the Publishers Association again here in the UK. That's wonderful. Thank you everyone. What an amazing group you are. So let's dive in with a question for all of you. I'd like to ask each of you to help us gain some insight into your particular markets. And I wonder if you could each provide us with a brief overview of how your government is, or perhaps isn't, encouraging accessible publishing. And if your government isn't engaged in this area, how is the private sector working towards accessible publishing? So I'm going to go to Agata first for an overview of the landscape in Australia. Thank you, Sarah. So following the notification of Marrakesh Treaty in 2016, the Australian government introduced legislative changes to our copyright law. In the amendment introduced in 2017, the previous provision has been replaced with two new exceptions. The first is a third dealing exception for persons with a disability and anyone assisting them. And the second is an exception for organisations assisting persons with a disability. Now accessibility is at the core of the government's digital transformation strategy, which aims to deliver world leading digital services for the benefit of all Australians. Now to add the strategy, the Australian government style manual contains an extensive section on how to write accessible, inclusive content. And the digital service standard, a set of best practice principles for designing and delivering government services, aims to ensure that these services are accessible, inclusive of all users. Now in 2016, the government released new procurement rules, which require public libraries and educational institutions to procure RCT products and services, which of course include digital books and content to meet accessibility requirements. These have been refreshed and updated in 2020. However, the implementation in practice has been somewhat lagging. That said, these rules are more likely affect the school educational market first. So our government is very supportive in terms of legislation and across digital accessibility in terms of government operations, but has not provided any funding to develop the publishing industry capability in this area. So the work on improving access to books to date has been driven by the disability sector and the publishing industry. Now the key organisation in the disability sector is the round table on information access for people with print disabilities, with membership across Australia and New Zealand, which includes organisations like Vision Australia or NexSense, but also the Australian Publishers Association and some publishers. The round table produces guidelines and hosts an annual conference and workshops. Now, in 2016 representatives of the publishing industry, libraries, disability organisations, the government and accessible format producers met for the first time as part of the Marrakesh Treaty Forum to identify the challenges and ways to improve the industry capability. A year later this forum was renamed the Australian Inclusive Publishing Initiative, also known as the AP. The AP released two guides in 2019, one on copyrights and one on inclusive publishing, and has been supporting collaboration, research and lobbying for funding, without much luck so far, but we'll get to that. The rest of the AP has been meeting manually, having been meeting manually until the start of the COVID pandemic. And while we haven't met since 2020 work on increasing accessibility awareness and industry capability continuously the background with the support of the Australian Publishers Association. The next industry organisation is the Institute of Professional Editors, which in 2020 formed a working party to research and create guidelines and training on editorial practices that address the needs of readers with a print disability. And apart from working on the guidelines, the members of the group contributed to revising the national editing standards to increase discussion of accessibility among the editing professionals. So that's why we're working on the landscape in Australia. Thanks Sarah. Thank you Agata, lots going on. If I could turn to Issa now and ask her the same question about the publishing landscape in Brazil. Yes. So we are not doing as much as Australia is doing. But we had in 2015, a new law, which we call the Brazilian law of inclusion, where it says that people with disabilities, they must have the same access and the same opportunities as everyone else. And these effects publishing, of course, because publishers are now obliged to provide books, accessible books, however, it doesn't say when you have to provide this book. You have to provide it in a digital format. It's not very detailed. And from then it's been six, seven years since the law was was released. Sorry that I'm forgetting words in English. But nothing much has changed. We have the government has this portal for accessible books where if you have a disability you can just register. And then you can demand a book there, you're going to buy the book, but you're going to have to do it through this portal. And not all the publishers are available there. So I don't see it as very accessible, as I believe that accessibility should be. You know, if I buy a book at Amazon or Kobo, everyone else should be able to do the same at the same time they should not have to wait for the book to be made. But there is this portal and it works and publishers have they have to provide the book within 60 days, 60 days. And this is what we have so far but then the pandemic came and the government realized that for schools, they would also have to provide digital books that were accessible. Before that the National Reading Reading Program did not have digital books as an option only for people with disabilities and not for all cases. And now they see it as mandatory so all the books they should be provided from the beginning in print. And also in digital accessible format. So this is what the government's doing so far. For Brazil, it's a lot, I would say but there is still a long, a long way to go. And the private sector. So it's not doing much, sadly, but we at Book Wire, we work with publishers so we don't make accessible books but we have been trying to encourage publishers to make the books accessible from the beginning they should not wait for the man so make your book accessible. And we can't from the release date, because then it will be also available in an accessible format for the government if they're going to buy books for you, and for the private sector if they're going to buy books for you. So, this is where we at. Great. Thank you very much. So, Stacy, over to you for the UK perspective. Yeah. And it was really interesting hearing about Australia and Brazil and I guess from my thinking the UK is probably somewhere in the middle. So, I've certainly traveled, as I mentioned before, you know, I've traveled a lot for it, looking at education in different countries and I've certainly seen far less provision that we get here in the United Kingdom. I didn't mention that, but I would also say that we don't actually get a lot here in the UK, either. So we have our copyright 2014 legislation, very similar to Brazil where, you know, anyone with a print disability has legal has the legal right to have books in the methods that they require them in. But there is no government department that you can go to to make that happen. And so they're very, very hands off I'd say the government, in terms of inclusive publishing and making things accessible so they provide grants and funding to schools and colleges and we have the disabled students allowance. So students are very much reliant on either scanning themselves and making the book accessible themselves, or working with librarians or the visually impaired and many others to your teaching staff support staff to make sure that they get the content that they need in the way that they need it. The problem with this as well though is it can be a bit of a postcode lottery and we've heard about this a lot particularly over the pandemic so some schools had a lot of support and had had the money they needed had the staff that they needed. And we had that a lot of other schools depending on where they were, so more deprived areas, they didn't receive all the support that they needed, and that a lot of children are falling behind, particularly those that need support with their, their reading needs. I would say that we mostly rely on charities, hugely rely on charities and the public sector and the private sector to get us the content that we need. So for example, aren't I be bookshare and talking books so that they have, I think just over three quarters of a million years ago when I left a couple of months ago, but that was all done through a collaboration effort between charity and publisher. So publishers provided that content to R and I be an R and I be trying to make it as accessible as it possibly could. In terms of other private sectors I mean of course it is, it is predominantly reliant on publishers and which I think have been really particularly good in the UK, certainly through bookshare so if we didn't have a copy, we would contact that publisher and ask for that copy, and we could make it into a variety of different formats for that student. So I think publishers have certainly had a massive part to play. And then just looking at the, you know, the publishers association and the accessibility action group everyone coming together there to try and get some movement and some stuff happening. There's a lot of a lot of effort there. But I think the biggest effort that needs to come is from the government, and I still think the government needs to recognize how big a problem that this can be how difficult it could be and actually they need to start funding people with print disabilities as much as they fund everybody else. Thank you Stacy that's really interesting. Christina we're going to come to you next for an insight into the Italian landscape please. Thank you very much. First, I would explain a little bit more about the foundation, because it's a kind of strange organization because it has been started as a project funded by the Ministry of Culture in Italy. And it has been managed by the Italian Publishers Association. And we work very, very closely since the beginning with the Italian Blind Union. Then after the project closed, we founded the foundation and the foundation now has as a member, the Italian Blind Union, the Italian Publishers Association, the Italian Dyslexia Association, a specialist organization that is organization working since many, many years in the production of digital, digital, braille and a larger character textbook for students who are blind and visually impaired. And we also have many publisher and the main goal of the foundation we started in 2011 was to create a catalog of born accessible publications that should be sold in the mainstream distribution channel, because our goal was not only to produce accessible book, but was to provide the accessible book in the same environment that is available for everybody because we believe that a person should buy a book as any other reader without any lagging of time and without any specific request. Now we have a catalog of 28,000 ebooks in the Italian market that are already accessible. And we work with the publisher and we certify also the accessibility of the file and we produce the metadata so the end user can understand which are the feature of the file. So it's a full ecosystem that we want to achieve in an accessible way. The other important element we start with the fiction book, but now we are also working with the educational publisher and academic and professional publisher, and we are working with them not only on the file but also on the platform and on the website, because this is another important part. And the last but not least, not in Italy but in Europe, I think it's important to know there is a new directive that is European Accessibility Act that has been approved in 2019 and should be implemented in the internationalization of all European countries by 2022 and will enter in force by 2025. And one of the services that are included in the directive are ebooks and the digital publishing value chain. And this is really important because not only publisher in Europe, but every publisher want to sell in Europe should comply with the accessibility requirement. We are now, as Leah Foundation working very closely with the Federation of European Publishers with the European Blind Union and European Disability Forum to monitor the implementation and to find solution to make the implementation possible because it's, as you have already said, costly. There are a lot of investment and it's a completely shift and also the production process and the knowledge that the people should acquire not only in the publishing industry but let's say developer of application or a web developer should know what means to create an accessible website and there is no large knowledge on that at European level and I believe not only at European level. So what we are now trying to ask is to convince the Commission to fund and to put some money in a specific call in the European project focus on this topic because we believe it's also research and development. It's not something that is already done. There are a lot of research also in technology and in process that should be done and we believe this is very important and is not only a problem of the publisher but should be something that it should be taken in consideration also at European Commission level. Thank you Christina. So I'd like to move on to ask you all about the activities that you're currently involved in and what perhaps is your own organization doing to advance accessible publishing. Issa, perhaps we could start with you to tell us about the good work that Bookwire are currently engaged with. Sure. And so, like I said, after I visit Canada, when I went to tech forum, I realized that something had to be done regarding accessibility. It was a subject that the government had already passed and our association of publishers and had already also taken into consideration they had this portal for the accessible book. But I realized that this was very important because I had this international exchange and I realized that accessibility is way more than just a file that works for a blind person that there is like text-to-speech that works. And since we at Bookwire, we work with a lot of publishers in Brazil, I would say 60 to 70% of the market is for clients. We had this voice to talk to the publishers about this matter, even though we are an aggregator, we just deliver books to shops, let's say. But this was something that we could talk to them about it, they would listen because they rely on us when the subjects technology. And so I brought this subject to Bookwire and we started, we started small, we started sending out newsletter and asking publishers what they were doing to make the books accessible. I realized that they were still using EPUB 2, they were not aware of EPUB 3 sometimes. There were of course some bigger publishers that were more, they were more aware of the matter, but it was usually something that were not on the radar, they just saw accessible books as something really difficult to make and expensive. And that's not, that's not true. There are a lot of people in our market, even in Brazil that make accessible ebooks for a very reasonable price, they don't demand a lot of time. We were also starting with audiobooks. So that's what we did, we started talking about it, we started sending this letter and making the subject sort of happen. And then we have a validator of EPUB files in our platform and we used ACE by Daisy as a benchmark. We used, I think we used the code as an open code. I'm not sure about the details of the technology, but we included the validation in our validators. So now publishers are able to check if their ebook is accessible and if it's not, where is the, where is the state, what is missing? You know, there is like a very detailed report. And these already made a lot of publishers open their eyes to the matter because they, in order to deliver a book to any of the channels that we deliver to, they have to validate the ebook. And then you have something telling your ebooks not accessible. And this is what you should do to fix it. And a lot of publishers started to ask questions and they realized that it was not super expensive. It didn't demand a lot of time. There were people in Brazil that were doing it. It was not something so out of reach. So this was the first step. And we're still like taking baby steps. It's not as fast as I would like since this was, you know, 2019. But there is something else that we've been pushing that I think makes a lot of difference, which is making your book accessible in more places, and in the same places for everyone so accessible books should not be available on demand. It should be available at Amazon and Kobo and Google and Apple and Storytel, script, whatever they should be available for everyone in our business models in libraries. We have a very different library markets in Brazil from all the other countries, I assume we don't have the same culture. But it has been changing slowly, especially since the pandemic started, and the library business is growing. And we've been talking to publishers that you should also make your books available at libraries because we have, we have blind people people with disabilities it's not only visual impairment but there are other kinds of things that can can make a person need an accessible book. We're able to access this book because you know Brazil is a very huge country, and we have a different reality in some places, you know, there are some places that you're going to have bookshops and you're going to have libraries and everyone has access to the internet, but if you go to other places, there is no internet, or there is no bookshops and Amazon will take, I don't know days, weeks to deliver a book for you. So how to make books accessible there as well. You know. So this is, this is what we are doing, we are starting the conversation and making the publishers aware because they are the ones making the books, so they are the ones who have to take this step to make the books accessible and I think they, they didn't understand how to do it they didn't have the information. So they didn't do it. And we are trying to get this information to them to show them that it's not that hard. It's totally worth it. There is a social reason, but there is also a bunch of readers that you're not reaching, because you just, you just don't want to, you know you could make a small effort and have this whole new bunch of readers, you know, reading books. So yeah, this is what you're doing. That's wonderful. And it's great to hear about Bookquire tackling the challenge of informing your publishing industry in Brazil and indeed offering the ace by Daisy validation option. Always pleased to hear about that. There are many hats I know, but we'd love to hear about the work that Taylor and Francis are currently engaged in and perhaps you could spend a few moments telling us about that. Thank you. And so I think it's been quite a year or two for Taylor and Francis and they've certainly done a lot to make their content more accessible. For me, I don't know if you would class that as a good thing or not. So, bringing me in as accessible accessibility manager is one of the key things that they've done recently to ensure the continuation of all the accessibility work that aligns with the overall strategy of the company wide strategy of inclusion and making sure that the inclusive practices and inclusive content is is across absolutely everything that we do, both in house and externally. Basically, you probably know that last year they have they received 100% aspire score for their corporate accessibility statement. So this describes what they're doing in terms of accessibility and inclusive publishing, what shows they use and most importantly, how you can use them. And the so 100% that was up from I think it was about 71% the year before. So they really did put a lot of work into making sure that they made the accessibility statement as clear as possible. They also decided that wasn't enough and they gone ahead and won the ABC gold standard award as well for their work in accessible publishing. So the partner three of the key. We don't say libraries but organizations across the world so R and IB bookshare so that's Bookshare UK, Bookshare US, and the access text network. And through the most three partnerships they've made sure that over 50,000 books were downloaded just last year alone. 37,000 books and between between these three partnerships, 95% of Taylor and Francis content is available in a variety of different formats immediately. So, in total we have more than 150,000 ebooks available and are continually digitizing and upgrading our backlist. One of our other schemes is VIP mailbox definitely VIPs to us. So in this mailbox we answer queries from anyone who requires books in alternative formats and through so through this and say this program, since its inception about 10 years ago about 2010. They've processed 28,000 books. So it's quite a lot of books to process as a team and they do a wonderful job and they're very passionate about what they do. And we've also got a descriptions program for images. So we're looking at this part of our commitment to WCAG compliance we introduced image descriptions into our work workflows in 2020. Hundreds of books are now supplied with image descriptions with this number growing every day. We also have an author submission program, which was a really interesting thing to start running to see if we could get authors, when they submit their manuscripts to actually do their own image descriptions. And this is actually gone reasonably well so the numbers are so small but they are growing, because we're still, you know, getting the word out there talking to two authors, letting them know why it's so important, and having other authors lead by example. And where this is most important in my view is when when you're looking at particularly STEM content. So, you know, it might be that somebody, you know, you need somebody who really understands the topic in order to describe a graph and calculus or a part of the human body and, and we, you know, you don't want that getting wrong. Somebody, you know, making the best effort they can to make a book accessible but getting that wrong, and therefore the person that's using it isn't getting the information that they need. Taylor and Francis have also joined the global certified accessibility program with Benedict. Make sure again that they're publishing fully accessible PDF and EPUBs. Moving on to our journals as well. Our journals are available in HTML, EPUB and PDF format, and I believe there is, we've just converted 360,000 books into a journal sorry into accessible EPUB format. And, and we're also we've made any new articles will be published automatically into EPUB so again that number is growing quite rapidly, and it'll be exciting to see where it is in a few years time. So a two year project on the go at the moment to upgrade 65,000 EPUB two files into EPUB three to improve the structural integrity of these files with accessibility in mind. We're looking for the things so we have a read speaker tool built into our journals platform. So it means that anyone can go on and click on that, and have they either an entire journal or part of a journal read to them. So if they, you know, if they have a print impairment and they don't actually want to read the whole thing themselves and that tools free and it's already there, and it's suitable for a wide variety of needs. I think TNF have done a lot. There's still a lot we want to do. And the thing I would say is most important that they do as well is that they make it easy to contact them. So regardless of whether or not you know you're having an issue browsing their website so getting their books. If you go to that accessibility statement or on their homepage and it's, it's always easy to get hold of somebody, and you should always receive a really fast response because they really recognize that actually even a few days of not having your content can make such a difference. Wow, that was really impressive Stacy thank you and Taylor and Francis have certainly been really busy. The Leah Foundation I'm sure has got a lot to report on here so I'm going to hand over to you for a quick resume of everything you've been doing recently. We understand that the Leah Foundation has recently collaborated with European colleagues on a number of fantastic accessible resources. We'd be interested, I'd be interested in understanding how that alters everyone's approach to the European Accessibility Act over to you. Thank you. Yes, we have done. First of all, we have prepared a paper two years ago that was explaining what the Accessibility Act means. We each had implication for all the actor in value chain, it was in English and it was freely downloadable. And from that we started collaboration with other organization who translated the paper in their own languages. And we have a Canadian version of the document that has been adapted to the Canadian market. We have a Japanese version who has been done in collaboration with the K University. And now we have prepared. Just two weeks ago, the German version in collaboration with the person for iron and dizzy belays and we are the partner of person for iron in this field. And we are now working on a little Indian version of the same book for the little Indian blind organization. This is one big part if someone else is interesting in translating it in Spanish or any other language, we are available, and we will be very happy. The other thing that we are doing at the international level is training. We have created a quite wide catalog of training course that with the pandemic we are now able to offer online. And we train on many different aspects from raising awareness and explaining which are the general issue to very detailed and longer training course on how to use in design world, and all the other tool to create accessible publication within the production process we are quite we have a quite strong knowledge in the production process in publishing, because we are from the publisher association so we understand how the publisher create and which are the issues I face. We have an image description training program to explain all the things that Stacy is playing very well. And we are working also on some training course on the workflows and the production process that is another element that is really relevant. We also do some event to raise awareness in book fairs and festival and we are now part of European project of the network of European fairs. And we manage within this project that is named all the activity of the most important European fair focus on accessibility, and we recently have released a research that we have done within this project to verify the accessibility of book fairs. There was a Frankfurt tour in Lisbon, many different fairs, both in terms of physical accessibility but also digital and communication accessibility and an article will be published very soon on the Aldous App website. So what and the other thing that we do a lot is consultancy and support for the publisher, we also use the daisy tool we have embedded that in a platform that we have that is an automated process to verify and certify the ebooks from the publisher and also to create the metadata on accessibility in an automated way. Fantastic, thank you Christina. Leah has always got so much going on it's fun it's wonderful to hear about all the various activities. Agatha last but not least, I'd like, we'd like to come to you and if you could take a few moments to tell us about the surveys that you recently conducted and how this informs the your activities in Australia, that would be wonderful. We are running fairly close to the end of the session so if I could ask you to be reasonably brief and then I think we have time for one more question at the end. Yes I'll be very brief. So I've been involved with accessible publishing at Sydney University Press where I've worked, and this sort of made me interested in actually researching what's the landscape of accessibility implementation in Australia so I carried the research project in 2020. I've done a couple of surveys, one with publishers and one with disability organizations just to understand what were the key challenges and from both sides. So I don't want to go too much into the details, you know, I've got reports online that can be read but basically it shows that there is publishers are producing digital books but they are not making, they're not sure whether they are accessible so they are giving us an unlimited, so there is, you know, demand for training and more knowledge. What I found really interesting is finding out from disability organizations and alternatives so much producers, what are their challenges because it showed how much unnecessary work is being carried out and how time consuming the really publishers could step up. And this survey sort of resulted in some really key suggestion that could be implemented short term by publishers like improving response and turnaround time for providing files, having contacts on the website, providing the correct files in the first instance. And just having a policy on the website and you know, it's like what Stacey mentioned that Taylor and Francis has, but of course in the long term publishers should produce more than accessible books. So what from there, so in the first instance, we implemented many of those suggestions on our SAP websites, you know, we have policy, we have a contact, but also we have done a number of industry webinars and conference presentations and workshops, aim to increase awareness and provide a starting point for publishers of how can they get involved in accessible publishing. And COVID slowed some of this work but we are still making progress on the guidelines, as I mentioned before, organizing a series of workshops and working on further research projects to support raising awareness and increasing capability of the industry. And also the key I guess finding from the service for me is how much we can learn from each other. So working together for the disability section and publishing industry is the key. So that's for me, brief. Alright, thank you very much Agata and just to let all our audience know that some of these wonderful resources that have been mentioned today, we will provide those links and make them available to you all so that you can read a little bit more about them in more detail. So I have one final question for you all and if you could just give me a very brief idea of your thoughts on how realistic this dream of a world where born accessible books become the norm. How realistic is it in your market, do you think. And I'm going to go immediately back to Agata for this one for, for your view. So I am an eternal optimist by default and I believe this is very realistic, and especially with the European Accessibility Act in place which is a game changer. It's limited to, it's European Accessibility Act but it will impact all publishers who want to sell to Europe. And you know if publishers are thinking of doing it and I presume it wouldn't only be surprised if in Australia and other places our legal framework will change to follow this directive in any way. So, in my mind, working together, as I mentioned before, is the key to changing the way books are produced. And, you know, this is what we've done at SUP because we work together with our platform provider in disability organizations, we were able to make huge progress despite the fact that we are very small, five people. So, yeah, and like just looking back and how much has changed in the last few years since I've been heavily involved in this area since 2018. And the awareness and knowledge of accessibility issues has has grown incredibly over the last few years there are more guidelines and tools such as say by Daisy which is a game changer. There's more training available from different organizations around the world so for some I believe that the world where born accessible books are the norm is coming and coming soon. Wonderful, it's great to hear your optimism there. Let's hear from Stacy and whether there is any difference on her opinion with regards to the UK market. I completely agree with Agatha 100%. I don't think we're going to wake up tomorrow and find that it's, you know, we're born accessible and everything's wonderful. But we have come such a long way and when I think back as myself, you know, as a blind student, when I think back even just, you know, 10, however many years ago. It was so, so different and we've come such a long way and I think there's still a way to go but we're on the right tracks. We're implementing the right legislation, and we're collaborating a lot more. And so I think I never used to think that it was possible, but I'm 100% convinced that it is very, very possible. And we can look forward to celebrating that day and looking at everything that we've achieved. Thank you, Stacy. Christina, are you, are you as optimistic as Stacy and Agatha? Yes, also because in Italy for trade book is already reality. I think it's more complicated and they will be a longer journey for academic and professional and school books. But I'm sure that is a journey that started that the people is working quite fast. So I'm quite confident. Wonderful. That's three out of four. Finally, let's hear from Issa on this. I'm really sorry guys, I'm going to be the pessimist here, but this is about my market. So, I mean, I do think it's possible, of course, and we do have some people working really hard. I've never done a foundation before, but we have the foundation called Dorina and the wheel, which is very similar to the Leah foundation they do a great work for a long time they're present in almost other cities in Brazil. But I, my country, sadly, does not think so much about these matters. It's law of inclusion. It's been seven years now, and not much has changed it not many publishers are involved and it's just very slow I don't think. I don't think nothing will change if the government doesn't really push doesn't make it mandatory and mandatory in a way that it's truly accessible not only by demand, not only through a different portal because that's not true accessibility. But the publishers which are in Brazil at least they are the private sector. I don't see the working towards this because it will require time it will require money, unless they are forced to. So I'm a little, I'm a little pessimist, but it will happen. I just think we need more, we need more focus on this matter from our government. Well, let's cross our fingers that you're as optimistic as are the rest of our panel in a short time. I know Christina wants to hop in here with something quick before before we close up so I will revert quickly to Christina. Now I just want to highlight that one very important element to push accessibility is to explain that accessibility is a higher quality for everybody. If you create accessible digital publication they will be much better for every reader. And this is something that we were able to explain to the publisher. I think it's a very good point. It's a quality and it's also in increasing the market. So I think these are also business value, not only charity and the social issue there are also some business issue that should be explained and demonstrate to the publisher and I think that this is clear. It's very clear for example in Francis and Taylor and I think this one of the reason that is important to explain because publisher will move also for that. Thank you Christina quite absent couldn't agree more. So we've come to the end of our discussion here today. And I'd like to thank all of our wonderful panelists for this excellent discussion. It's been fascinating to hear about the different approaches in your countries. And I think we can all learn something from the various terrific activities that have been presented here. Thank you to you our audience for your time, and we hope to be able to connect with you in the future. I'm going to hand back over to Leah from nails at this point. And we look forward to some questions from you all.