 Hello everybody if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always is my co-host Tom. What's going on Tom? How you doing buddy? Hello friends? I am here on time and everything's okay Tom didn't show up right at the last possible second and then forced me to diagnose audio issues That isn't what happened that I would have known had existed had he joined earlier. It's not my fault your ship broke Yes, yes Okay, so at any rate Tonight we're gonna be talking about our AOS 4.0 wish list We're gonna be talking about what we hope to see in the next edition and I hear you saying Vince But isn't that a long way away? Yes, it is potentially theoretically it's next year and that's why we're talking about it now We got to get in on the ground floor Right, so when the GW designers listen to this as I'm sure they just I'm sure Thursday in the office They just crack this up on the big screen We're talking Dave We know you're we know you're working on development right? I know there's not sure We're gonna help you out we're here for you exactly the idea here is straightforward We are going to like we want to talk about this stuff now So hopefully it actually comes to pass because later will be too late and and not only that Not only are we helping you do your job, you know, we're doing it for free, right? We care That's what it is. Yeah, you know, we're here. We're here for you Absolutely, but first of course the news All right. Yep. Yep. So we have stuff Do stuff in the news a rumor engine always a rumor engine there is the rumor engine ever the rumor engine it is a Chaos star thing it could be one of any million kits like There are a million kits where that sort of a chaos star could exist from Every single game system they make It's clearly a new endless spell for slave stars like it's just replacing the old kid The the eight-fold doomsigal the most impossible once a raid. Yeah, right Decided that they can't design new rules for it without designing a new model. There it is. Sure. I've cracked the case Well, no now it's you've missed a trick It's the second part of the doomsigal You set up the miniature doomsigal and the full doomsigal and now they they those they like There's also a second addendum onto it where now that the little one orbits the big one And then you measure from like the primary to the secondary. It's it's even better now You know, you know, this is called in the description for the endless bow. What's that the corollary? Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah Okay, so yeah, it could be a cast are from any literally any game they have so Amazing What about what about that? Yeah, let's talk about the FAQ. I realized I jumped ahead with my photo. Sorry. Let me bring up the FAQ Here we go. Okay. So we got two FAQs Bone reefers and soul blight gray floards and I have to say I'm pretty happy with all of these So first off, I like the if a mortal wound caused by the curse of your spell is negated Do I get to roll a die as described within the rules text? Yes, fun answer. It's that way doesn't just shut off quite easily Yeah, that's that's good. I have no problem with that It's I the spell was never that broken other than in that short time period way back in a os 1.0 Where it could just like run rampant if you remember Sure, and then you can unbind with the more tech thrown so that's fine I always assumed you could I didn't know this was a question, but Good to clarification Big change here on Petra fix elite and I'm happy to see it I'm happy to see it Unstoppable juggernauts changed from the minus one damage To subtract one from wound rolls still quite a powerful ability. I will point it is it is I I dropped in at my local club actual trash was running an RTT and You know one of the one of the guys Will was just just kicking dicks with his With with a petra fix list in the minus one damage. And so, you know It was probably needed like this was an adjustment that probably Yeah, the problem is I still think you have a lot of incentive to go with the super elite models as we'll talk about in just a moment depending on how this FAQ gets FAQed but the This is a good change in my book I really think neg one damage is toxic and just basically shouldn't be in the game on that kind of a broad level as we discussed during the overused rules Discussion last week go check that out if you want to see us talk about that in egregious detail But this is still a very strong bonus and it's good. I have no issue with it. Like I said, it's a very strong rule. It's very nice Okay, the gods are a harvester so a timing change here means a lot of actual change so yeah at the end of the combat phase Which is like there's a lot in those Seven words because that's that's the shooting match here, right? We move this to the end of the combat phase instead of immediately upon drop roll drop roll drop roll drop roll Yeah You can pick one friendly Ossiarch bone repers unit that is within six inches of this unit and had models slain in that phase If you do so roll a dice for each model from that unit that was slain in that phase on a four plus You get to do one of the following Okay Option one if it's a wounds characteristic of four or less you can heal one wound It's a wound characteristic of five or more you can heal three wounds now obviously in a lot of cases This is that that all this healing doesn't matter right because it doesn't have any dice you roll like It's not it'll often just heal them to full and be done if it's actually doing the healing not really gonna change anything Yeah, right Now if no wounds are currently allocated to the unit you picked You can return a number of slain models to it that have a combined wounds characteristic of equal to or less than The number of wounds you could have healed so The question becoming does this like can you now restore bigger people bigger models and like My read on it is yes, but I understand why some people say no So you can restore very big things with this assuming that enough died to trigger enough dice rolls that you actually got it to happen So like that's obviously the gate It's not the easiest thing to accomplish, but it can So but you know it's that that is an open question I can see people reading it both ways because they could say well it doesn't have this That's not how the trigger works and yada yada, but but to me it does work So that's fine. It's just it's an end-of-phase thing But it will change some effect. I still think it's quite good. Yeah Yeah, I agree. I'm for me the heartbreak was in the soul blight FAQ well, let's jump over to the soul blight FAQ. Yeah, okay. Yeah, because I was very happy with this FAQ I mean, it's fine. It's fine. I just I really wanted those Custard Coscardi Coscardi, I got it. I understand. I know I know we all did We wanted them playable, right? We wanted them on the table. I'm with you I love that they're like yes, it can be taken above its maximum size Like that was the first thing that I saw and I was like whoa. Oh, here we go Sure It's fine All right, does the doom dominion's command trait apply to a tax bait but made by mounts and the answers? No, it shouldn't it is a command trait But it's weird that's so funny because I ran into this the last couple weeks I've been playing against soul blight and the opponent used this Command trait because it's a really good command trait. Yeah, and I was like, I don't think this applies to mounts You know like fur to I quoted exactly 2731 and I was like There's nothing in this rule that says it breaks the core of It's a command trait hence it can apply to mounts, but you know Obviously it was a bit unusual in the way the bonus did since it said it applies to everything within three inches So it's like well the mounts Right, so like I could see the argument people were making but I I always came down And no, it doesn't which is fine. This is like a really strong ability by the way. Yes, it is. It's very good Also, you are I want you to know that you are like by Comments and everybody on this show and my own personal lived experience You have surpassed our worst takes ever on this show With your zombie thing if you don't think zombies aren't them like wildly strong I know I know they are wildly strong and I'm and I'm hearing all the rage of pushing 120 bottle bodies up on objectives and being like suck it kill yourself Correct. It's what happens. Yes It's boy. Oh boy. Is it egregious at any rate? By the way skeletons really good, too I just want to point that I bet we it's funny because again been playing so again so right now so I've got the chance to run against multiple armies and He's run both zombie heavy and skeleton heavy armies and it was just interesting to to see both had a lot of play I'm okay with with having bad takes it happens sometimes what I sure what I will say is that kudos to GW It's taken them like five years But they finally got nefrada That bitch has been throwing that she's been throwing that spell around for so long But that would like make make a target unrendable but still get bonuses to save. Yeah egregious Finally they got her. Yeah, so the By the way language, uh, so Vircos The Vircos thing clarified. Yes, exactly. It's summonable cool So it's zombies fine and then yes nefrada Finally dark mist is just basically ethereal. Yes. Oh boy. Thank goodness for this I cannot explain. This has been truly obey up the my opponent has run nefrada every time because why wouldn't you and To fight through this was just like so terrible so terrible Because it's just two ups. Nothing dies and then the unit heals six wins Right, that's what happens any wounds you get through are immediately erased You're not going to kill anything and then they immediately sell feel Yeah, that's all that happened Yep, unless you were just mortal wound spam to to the moon and back right? Right, which obviously not every army can do Yeah The blood knights this is a good clarification a lot of people tried to defend blood knights when I said I'm Underwhelmed by blood knights in their new incarnation and they said well you can Pile in and do all these things and still trigger the the wounds I never thought that was how it was going to work or how it was meant to work They always faq that stuff away from it So now you only trigger it on that wound's characteristic of three or less and only on a normal run or charge um Yeah, I did I have played against blood knights and my answer is They're okay Like if you catch them flat footed, they're they're just they're good at all fine Yeah, they're They're very expensive for what you get out of them and they're and the fact is Honestly, you'd be better off with just an equivalent amount of skeletons Honest answer or black knights Black knights. I'm so impressed by Um, they die super easy, but boy. Oh boy. Do they do they hit when they when they land? Yeah Yeah, they're fine And when you lose them, it's like whatever They're like cool. I paid half cost for these uh these blood knights. Yeah Yeah, uh, okay, and then the dead walkers on be just the the extra clarification on the model restoration So yeah, yeah, I mean, which is fine. Like, um, I I do like that You can add like summable dead walkers above the maximum size with the pack alpha Um, and also with the newly dead like that they clarified that there's just no confusion here Yeah, you're just acting bodies which like I Man like I just wonder if there's some Like adding a d3 like I know the right answer mathematically It's probably at always adding to your zombies just for mortal wound kickback Like that's probably the right answer for d3 traditional models But thinking about adding like six wounds to a dire wolf unit Right like that's not an insignificant amount of wounds for a d3 every hero is um So I don't know like I I'm I'm still hot on Viricus. It's just where I'm at Yeah, I understand. I mean legion of blood is uh, oh, I'm getting a little echo from you I don't know why you might want to oh probably because you don't have your headphones in I'll I'll continue talking. I'll see you in a second. Uh, the Um, I mean, I've just been impressed by the whole army like soul blight is oppressively strong right now Uh, it does not surprise me that that is shot to the top of the The competitive lists because playing against it now for many weeks in a row boy. Oh boy. Is it like, uh It's real strong and um I am just deeply impressed by its capabilities Uh, if you like the to the point where it's very very hard to play against like very hard, uh to the point where I it's often like I don't know how I actually beat this with many of my armies Like just it shows up with such a huge advantage um With my Skaven. I was able to outmaneuver it with I played slanesh against it and it was just that that was a nothing It was just like I got The funniest situation did happen. Mind if I tell a quick story in the middle of the news section I mean, we are we are talking about Warhammer. So I'll tell a quick story about soul blight so I Waited until neffi didn't have her spell on herself And then managed to get Multiple units into her with my slanesh just from you know downtown long bomb So this is pretenders super super souped keeper. I don't play shooty slanesh, of course I have no shots in the whole army And so I just throw a bunch of stuff at her. She doesn't have her her thing on her, right? And I and she's been locked out of using command abilities as well like I managed to get subvert off on her Okay, she can't use any command abilities. So she's pretty stuck. Okay And I get Like Let's say I get I think 10 wounds on her I let her attack first All right Shrug it off But one wound gets through what one wound gets through tom The dagger of course correct One wound from the dagger gets through I then put like 10 or 11 wounds on her So she's almost dead. She's not going to get a chance to heal. Okay, sure. Yeah And Then we come to the end of the combat phase And the one wound on my general which in pretenders is everything your general is everything My general is like soup to heck him back to be protected, right? He's like well, I get a roll of die on a five up. You're dead rolls to die five. I'm dead. I'm like, okay I think you're gonna win this game Rolls and I was just like, yep, that's fine pick her up. It's like, of course, of course that too. Why not that too? Uh So just the funniest thing to to top to be on top of all those other rules Um anyways, so yeah, that's the FAQ good stuff overall. Okay. What's next in the news? Uh, that's a great question. Uh cities of sigmar. How about those models those new models those were for sexy Yeah, let's go back to that. So Uh, here we go. We got our new guy our new sort of free guild general and his adjutant I assume which will now be not anything you choose but rather this particular This little boy right here As somebody pointed out hank and bobby hill over here So That yep the checks out for me. He's got a zombie head And you've got a guy with big hammer And then you also have alternate ways to build him. There he is with sword and shield And there he is with Two guns. He's got two guns one for each of you Uh, so Yeah, that's cool Yeah Yeah, I saw him and I was like These guys look fun. Sure Some people are really enamored of them. I looked at it and I was like, that's fine Yeah, like I don't I don't think that they're like rock star Right. Yeah, but they like they have the vibe. This is going to be a really weird call out to me They have the vibe of the of like the forge world resin Soldiers. Okay. Okay Like some of the heroes on foot From the forge world resin stuff had kind of a very similar design Obviously, they were bound to like I think uh, null hind maybe or something, but Um, yeah, I mean they they they look great looks obviously we have some head swaps. Obviously we have some all weapons Yeah, uh, they yes, somebody said I have hand cannons. They do very much look like little tiny cannons. Yes, you're not wrong um Yeah, different head swaps different weapons It's cool. I like good stuff. I think they look neat. He looks like a fun fantasy guy somebody in the chat said who said this uh Manny still cool, but they look like a d&d character. Basically. I can't disagree with that They do look like you're like you're you're third or fourth level d&d character. This is what they look like. Here we are so uh That's fine. And and yes, I don't keith. I don't want to I don't want to crap on anybody who likes who just wants Sort of basic humans. That's fine. It says it does nothing for me Uh, I sleep it's curious to me Why we didn't I mean like obviously they would probably want this reflected in rules But it's curious to me why they didn't have like other race heads Oh, like having elf head or something right right like if there is this mixed character about them Like I recognize keywords and other stuff, but like it just makes me wonder like it seems like a missed opportunity Yeah, I I mean it would be cool if we didn't have to worry about those keywords at all but at the same time we will because I'm sure that there will still be some mixed action in cities and uh And and there will still be like power pair type stuff going on I'm sure where the the dwarf lord cares about the dwarves and the elf person cares about the elves and you know Of course, of course. We'll see we'll see something like that. Yep. Well, since you're over here screwing up old world names Uh, uh, let's it's fine old world generic or old world place. Yes indeed Uh, let's go to the the next story Uh, which is the old world story Which is here are your core factions. There are nine factions tom for the launch of the old world. We got that confirmed this week That's fine the empire dwarves plutonians wood elves high elves working goblins chaos warriors beastmen and two kings uh, no Skaven no vampires no dark elves no Demons of chaos and so on and so forth Did they did you say, uh, oh for empire will we have different like cities or a region or city specific stuff? Yes, yes, there. I mean, so we're asking where those kisslevites went Is that what you're saying? Right like in looking at this. I'm like, man, where's my kiss? Like if we're gonna do this I want like I'm in I want my Yeah, this is a time of of Civil war for lack of a better term I suppose within the the empire of man as it were so um You know that they did mention that those armies that are not the core supported factions will get a launch pdf Uh, sure. So like let's see how that goes. That'll be good for five minutes But I mean I've seen a lot of people dipping a lot of hopeium onto that. Uh, oh, thank you No, no seraphon And then you know, they talk about well, this is what's going on in the world at that point in time and all these other races have turned Well, not that he's not seraphon. I'm busy with this game Can we talk about that? This is the period where the great scaven civil war happens and so there that's they You basically scaven weren't seen on the surface world for about a century And this is where the whole scaven or a myth thing comes from. First of all, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard I always thought that was dumb. Okay like if Lots of things haven't been seen in the world. I haven't seen things in my entire life. I don't think they're a myth You know, I just saw kangaroo for the first time like a few years ago I didn't think they were a myth up until I was 40 years old, right? Um, so just like whatever. Uh, it's stuff so dumb. Um But anyways, uh The uh Yeah, they're all they're all off doing other things is the short answer Okay, like they were I I knew he returned to his home planet. That's it. That's the end of it Sure, like I respect them wanting to keep it tight, right? Like They're already not releasing new kits for everything. So there's just like a smattering of new kits around here And you know, they showed pictures of the models on squares I didn't I didn't pull the picture because it didn't want to be mean But it was like the old wood elf war dancers along with the old tree man and I was like I mean Like you had the choice of any picture. They could have shown anything, right? They could have done phoenix garland squares anything They could have done anything and they picked that and I was like, oh boy If this is where we're going, this is what you want. Just tap that nostalgia vein. Let's Let's go old models go lower Uh, as I've said many times I have basically no sense of nostalgia things are either good or bad Uh, and so, you know Well, the reason what strikes me is this like stuff like work in goblin tribes warriors of chaos like They have model ranges for that like not a lot like some like some will need to be designed for that, right? but Those are going to be supplementary stuff uh, tomb kings king, you know, bretonians wood elves high elves Like a lot of that's just going to be fresh like those are going to have to be news goals They've already talked about re-releasing the nights of the realm, tom the circa 2002 plastics I am aware Yeah, no, I mean like I'll be interested to see what the new stuff is yesterday I understand obviously stuff like the kislevite stuff should be pretty awesome I'm I'm I'm interested to see I just Putting so many of those those other armies into pdf legends form where it's like, yeah Here's your starter thing and as soon as we have books they you know, they'll basically be outdated Um Is not great I mean, hopefully the game has enough traction that they want to bring in those other factions or advance the timeline Or or introduce those things, which is fine. They always will have the ability to do that Um, but man, no no picture they showed so far got me excited at all Do you think they'll actually do a full like true relaunch re-release of mordheim when the old world drops? Yes Like do you think that that'll be the year after the year after yeah, like that'll be their supplement game Yeah, like like uh war cry. Mm-hmm. I hope so I mean like I and I hope they don't like revamp it or like revisit it like I hope they do Because uh when they did when they relaunch kill team like that was or necromunda like that They let necromunda be necromunda right or less be the game. Yeah, it's not exactly what was printed in the in the 90s, but it's pretty close I hope they're like, you know what this is good enough. It's close enough necromunda people were like, yeah, this is we're good Again, it was mostly cleanup. That's that's what i'm hoping for sure sure Uh that you you heard it here first folks start building your tables Yeah, I I would love to see a more time uh relaunch a year after this comes like that would excite me more than anything I'm seeing on this screen right here like I agree with that. I agree with that 100 like I want I want nothing more than to like Build just a redonkulous mobile flexible more timetable and paint a bunch of those old ass like not that old models But you know what i'm saying like the older style models sure sure Yeah, get some nice switch hunters out there. It'd be great So yeah, but anyways, that's that's the old world. We still don't know when uh I we still don't know when this is and by the way, uh Greasy pan ham very funny name. Um, I don't know about that man I my money is on that like this seeing that the dark elves weren't in here made me think that Dark elves are going to stay in cities. I think I think the dark elves will stay as like because we because we have no Uh malekith or whatever yet, you know, we have no malaria. I should say um There it tells me they want to still keep those guys in the world And so I think those will absolutely still be part of cities as far as like maybe Maybe it could also be like the great betrayal, right? Like that they could stay for this do that in the story in this Yeah, in this edition. Yeah, yeah Yeah, in third they're still there in fourth when the new box drops Um You can and when the book finally drops you can like pull them out And maybe they do a dual release with like malaria into army and cities Drop the books at the same time and pull dark elves out at the same time like all that like narratively they could work Yeah, yeah um, anthony fairy what what a complicated question the short answer is Uh, I I could give the snarky answer But the the short answer is we we don't really know because the old world isn't a game yet It's not anything yet other than it's a square based rank and flag game. So in that way, it's a lot different um, you have Six game pieces effectively or seven or eight game pieces and as opposed to Uh, you know potentially 50 or 100 as what you do in in a os Um, so yeah, but but because of the nature you're just actually moving around a block that represents Yeah, I mean you have you have more models But those models are functioning as a single unit Like they're single games. They are just a wounds counter that are that are being pulled off. Yeah Yeah, they're just a single game piece like it's just it's a Rank and flank is just a much less fluid experience as far as like the dynamism of the thing. That's not a judgment That's just like angles and yeah, sure But but we don't know because we don't know the rules. All right. Anyways, there you go. That's the news. Let's get on to other stuff Uh, because boy, did we spend too long on this. Let's talk about some pick of the week Tom, what would you like to share with everybody? Um, uh, yeah, so okay go ahead I am going to promote, um My local club Okay, uh, which has been So it's a bunch of dudes here in lexington Okay, and Clay has been running events for us There they have the club name actual trash So they they are they have been around they won the teams event at adepticon this year um, and uh, and they've been running RTTs for regularly for a while and um And so I would just encourage you all. I think the next one's going to be in july. So for those that are on, um Uh, you know bcp go check them out. You can find the event register for it. Um We've I've done some stuff with them and we're hoping to maybe do something more Longer and organized next year. So that's that's what I'll say Nice. So if you if you're in driving distance come, uh, come check it out Lexington, kentucky. Yes indeed. All right Uh, myself Hey, guess what our buddy two plus tough dug The man the myth the legend the nicest man in wargaming. He's back making lore videos again and he's Loaded up a doozy So if you're curious about aos lore and you want to start at the most important Central figure of the entire game Guess what his new video on sigmar went up today. You can find that linked down below and uh, so that'll have Everything you need to know to get you going on. Who is this? It's the age of this guy. Who is this guy? Uh, that's sigmar. He and he's also he was he does connect back to the old world as well because that's you know He's turns out. He's a real real old guy Uh Just super old Gw loves telling stories about like central dad figures that are really old Yeah, and absent Yeah, and absent. Yeah, somebody had a real Dad problem. I think in the original story creation Yeah, okay So, uh, check it out linked below. Uh, good stuff. Let's talk about some hobby time Tom, what are you been working on, buddy? Have you have you returned to any hobbying? I put floor together for four hours today Okay Did you paint a model? Have you put together a model? Uh, I painted a wall. Does that count? Nope. That doesn't count. That doesn't count. Um, I ordered some things. Does buying count? Was it like actual hobby stuff? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I sent I sent an order in dylan mine today Okay. All right. Well for now that'll count. Yes sweet Buying things you hear to hear first buying things. Definitely a part of the hobby. Well, it is it is a part of the hobby. Yes Uh, okay, that's fine. There's that's something Um for myself, uh, I finished up whatever I was working on last week. I don't remember which one I shared I think probably the best but I started working on this girl uh, which is uh, morgana lafay from mine works And uh, I'm really excited about this one. She's like these are just so much fun As I said, I've been having a having a grand old time And uh, so there you go. There she is and uh, morgana is super cool And I just like how she's coming together To put you again just playing around with fun skin tones and lighting and reflections and stuff And so here obviously we're going to have her, you know, sort of stepping into a big pool Of liquid so we're going to have some some of that cast Water reflection and stuff so yeah good times overall Um, she's still very early doors really just starting out with her. That's like that's only a little bit of work Maybe an hour an hour and a half of work, but um, but yeah, she's just coming together so Good stuff a lot a lot longer to go on there But yeah, uh, mine works check them out if you like that kind of stuff This is this is based on a braum piece of art. So super cool Uh Oh, yes, alex and josh said, what did you actually get tom? Yeah, they want to know if you if you're buying what did you buy? It's a secret, but it may be Related to dead Okay, okay. I see. All right fair enough I'm glad you're back on the dead people train again. All right Well with that Let's uh, let's jump into the main topic for the evening. Shall we? Uh, which is aos 4.0 wish list Let's bring it up. Here we go But boom, there we go so Given the three-year cycle We fully expect age sigma 4.0 in summer 2024. This is the cycle. We've been on since the launch of both uh, 8th edition 40k and age sigma And so we fully expect that trend to continue Not there's been no reason to believe it would be anything else I suppose anything's possible, but for now we're going to assume it's the case And given how they work the team is likely finalizing things for aos 4.0 right now Uh, so we're going to give them our best hopes our best hopes and dreams and wishes and things like that By the way, I want to shout out paul conti in particular Who in a recent video took a shot at me for reading my slides to to granular First of all paul, it's not for you to tell me how to do a presentation Okay, don't cite the deep magic to me. All right I do more presentations in a week paul than you've done in the past four years Okay Now number two there are boardroom and ballroom presentations Some are meant to be read quite specifically Some are meant to be visual references only I tend to treat these more like a boardroom presentation than like a ballroom one Because I want to make sure people who aren't watching still can know what is on my slide paul Because a lot of people are hopefully hobbying or driving or doing those sorts of things We're inviting people into the boardroom into the inner sanctum Yes Now to receive wisdom and insight. Yeah, that's something like that. Sure Okay So this is basically everything that we want to see things that we would add or remove Yeah, we can cut from whole cloth create new things here. It's all wish list There's no insight here. None of this is actually loaded. Obviously obviously obviously, okay And I've purposely left some things off of this to foster some discussion But I want to hear you in the chat as well Like that is to say I'd like to hear what you all have to say So make sure you're you're commenting and while you're commenting if you're typing on your keyboard You're just like you might your hand must be near your mouse. Why not hit like and subscribe to it? So easy. You're already right there All right, they just go ahead and do it and hit that like button. All right tom. Are you prepared? Of course, I'm always ready. All right, then let us begin. Here we go Okay We're gonna start with the launch box We got to have a launch box for the addition, right? Okay. Here's my pitch for the launch box tom This is this is it better not be my exact pitch, but go ahead Well, I sent you this presentation 10 hours ago. So I don't know what yours is You know, you know, I don't look at those things. Sure. Sure Uh, my launch box pitch Is scaven versus cities Let me explain I hate you so much continue. Okay Scaven need a complete redesign this we know. Yeah. Yeah, okay Cities will be basically a year into its life at that point One of the things they love to do when they relaunch a whole line Is come about a year later behind that and put additional models into the range They did they've done it with sisters. They did it with luminet like sisters of battle in 40k They did it with lumineth. They've done it with space marines They love this crap. Okay. Yeah, because they they just generally can't sculpt everything they want to for a full relaunch right at the time of Uh, the actual launch of the faction So what this would let them do is do a full redesign on scaven Long overdue. I mean, of course a couple kids can stay like thank well We'll still get inherited in and storm fiends and stuff like that. We get inherited in you You know, I mean like much like the necron redesign of I guess eight that like and I could even see like the plague Claw catapult and the cannon like some of those kits they hold up They just do right? I think they're pretty bad, but it's fine. They're fine for what they are Like I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna lose sleep over not remake him if that's your point Uh, but then clearly the the troops the plague monks the rat ogres. What new scaven machines do we have? Let's get some new. I want new mold or monstrosities. I want new skryer Machines of war, right? I want new eshin Uh, ninja assassins okay and I think the fourth go round we can finally not have storm cast in the box You know what i'm gonna push back on Storm cast will be on the box and it'll be a single unit which is part of the cities That'd be fine. Like again, you know, like like cities can do one in one in four units of storm cast They're gonna be in the box and technically in that picture that I chose There is some storm cast as you can see over on the site amongst all the city's people. Yes This is why by the way, I actually think that this is what they'll do Is because they can still put storm cast in the box Like that's the key like to me. That's what actually sells this Is that they can put storm cast in the box with a bunch of new city stuff? Yeah, well, that's just it. It wouldn't have to be all new city stuff either Right, right. It could be Here's your core stuff. That's the uh, that's the stuff from the previous Launch or from the from the year ago, which they wouldn't have to be like because they they could It could just be completely new on both sides and that'd be fine, too Or it could be here's the x new city's unit and one new storm cast unit So they feel like they're still part of this and there's continuity Right, right. But to me, this is the launch box Switch is the focus. It does so many amazing things. I think people would buy the heck out of this box Uh, yes, I mean, I would buy So many Sure, so many because I'm already in for cities like cities has my attention and I was stupid enough to buy a bunch of the scaven Boxes, what do they pair with last year? Um something I bought like three of them So I have like 60 clan rats and 30 Sure, like I just have all the rats right now And so like something like this, which is likely you said the scryer. I actually so here's my twist on this I think you're mostly right But launch box will actually be heavy clan action Because because we'll go to to shadow we'll go. Yeah, because so here's my theory It's fine. By the way, I don't care. I just want the refreshed range I don't care who's in the launch box and if the launch box was full of ninja assassin rats Yeah, I don't think anybody's going to say nothing about launch launch box right now 100% hundo p And so the launch box they are going to want to sell as many as possible and you don't get cooler than ninja rats Right? No, that's so far um We know in the past like yes gw doesn't always do things the same way But there are patterns And we can see some of those patterns one of those patterns that is relevant is that in prior releases of of hollow of um that game that nobody plays underworld um They would release an underworld and then the next like go around for the actual launch was set in that realm So I think I like be scraped and then the next time we drop we were in gurl, right? Yeah, sure sure like the the hollow mourn or whatever the Whatever the city that we're currently in is in a will do and I think that that's relevant, right? um It wouldn't surprise me if that's actually the setting of that underground port city being the setting of Um as it being like a city, right? um It like it being you know part of the You know the crusade you have the establishment of the cities of sigmar and then oh look ninja rats jump out of the darkness like and then That's why that's also why It will set the stage for malaria because we know he's an old goo as well And so and then that could be the new army of 4.0 and that's the new army of 4.0 exactly Yeah, I mean I think that it all just makes sense and yes, there will still be a storm cast in the bottom Still has to make one new storm cast unit to or not new or not new Right like they have a bunch of push to fits that make their way Right. Yep. I mean it just this feels like the right launchbox to me for 4.0 This is this is like wishlisting in the truest sense because who knows this isn't like a rules-based thing But but it's chaos again like it keeps chaos in and because we've cycled through for the rotates us away from the dark gods Still it keeps them out of the right. We did chaos death Destruction and now we're back to chaos, but it keeps dark gods out of the main box Right and I would argue it carries on with the the current theme which is expansion because as they expand Then we can still bring chaos back into focus as the enemy, but it's the the sort of enemy within chaos from below Yada yada yada You know scaven sabotaging the cities and stuff like that like it's an interesting way It's not it's not the marauding hordes of corn or something like that just trying to ride across the planes like lunatics and Threatening to to wipe them out instead. It's it's you know the Doom tolling over these individual cities that have been set up and stuff like that. Yep So agreed agreed um So yeah, I mean to me going to ulgu getting a launchbox that's scaven and again I sure I would love a I would love an eschen focused launchbox I have no problem with that and I would love it if there are all new models of this type It would let them build on the city's release. Like I said about a year after like to me the math of this just lines up Yeah, all right. Yeah, um, yeah to feel like the newest second city's push, right? Yep Exactly, which again, they love doing that. So Yeah, there you go. Like yeah, great Fine, it would mean That cities would have one of the last books of of 3.0 And one of the first books of 4.0 That would be a weird thing that would happen as a result of this, but who cares what we've done this before Right, it's not see luminous, right? Like exactly. That's not yeah That's not unprecedented in some way that they wouldn't like if the rest of the idea is really good Everybody's got to get a new box of a new sorry a new book eventually So whatever, all right, like fine. Who cares? Um, okay Uh cool Yeah, so that's right on all right. We're in alignment here. Let's see at gw All right, let's talk about core rule changes Yeah All right, so I'm gonna timestamp this Okay core rule changes I just got this sort of a grab bag of different things. These aren't any kind of priority order They're just in the order that I thought of them um Heroic actions and monsters rampage rampage changes I really really hate the way monsters rampages are structured right now Yeah, um, I hate that they're at the end of the charge phase Okay, okay Because there is nothing to remind you to do that Sure start of phase transitions are a lot easier to remember than end of phase transitions. Yep Yep And so I would really just like to see monsters rampages moved to this is such a small change But moved to happen at the start of the combat phase Yeah, there's a lot that's happening at the start, but I hear you I not Really because again, we have the cleanup now where this is happening before asf Okay, like like these kinds of things definitely happen before you fight of any type you resolve all start of combat abilities Then you then you go into the various and sundry fighting Yep, and I just think it would be a better trigger to remember it Yeah, but But really what I want is the dice rolling gate for this stuff to change What I would like is for so can I pitch a different idea idea to you on monster train? Yeah, go for it man. Sure. I'm okay. We can you hate this to the studs instead, but go for it No, you may hate it, but let me just throw another possible idea. Okay When the monster activates Oh, they do that when the monster activates Sure Right, like rather having out of phase action Right out of activation action. This just becomes baked into a combat activation. Sure um, yeah, it's interesting the The obviously there's other timing considerations with that. It makes the ability significantly weaker It does it does it does Uh, but it also moves it back to when they're supposed to be doing things Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Don't worry rule of cool. We'll get to that one. That's a big one on my list That's just that's just that's a that's an item for for later on um Okay, uh, I I love seeing all these ideas because we're gonna I'm gonna don't worry. We're gonna hit a lot of these um, okay uh Let me talk about the dice rolling gate and why it's bad For a lot of the monsters rampages the way it works is you pick the thing you want to do And you sit there and agonize over the choice and then you roll some variant of dice Two up three up automatic whatever whatever, okay I would like them to be Like you roll a die Period if you roll a three plus then you pick a heroic Right, then you pick a monstrous rampage to do by the way You can do the same thing for heroic actions and rebalance them all around that thing So that the first thing you do is check the gate Do I do this thing or not and and by the way, I would rather heroic actions not sit behind ice I would rather they just happen So balance them accordingly Okay, because you they they have a very tight opportunity cost you get to do one and only one I mean army specific weirdos aside, right? Um Whereas monstrous rampages you get to do with all your monsters, right? Uh, and so I would much rather like If monsters if there's going to be something that's behind a dice Either get rid of the dice completely and you pick a thing and you do it. I'm fine with that Just balance them accordingly. Okay, or make it so I roll the die It's a three up. I pick a thing to do Yeah, it just needs to be systematized The right answer is that they need to have a a more Because what you're doing is you're reducing memory load Yes, your actual play this one's a two up this one's a three up this one checks bravery This one's on a four up but only on Tuesday and it's just like no no no no stop all that nonsense Okay, just design them within a set curve where this is the trigger And then the individualities if they want to have more or less powerful ones are fine Yep It's it's stop go back to draw drawing board Like do it again. Yeah, and you can you can evolve conceptually what we have Into something appropriate like if roar is the baseline then just make everything like roar Right and put it all behind a three up gate If if not if titanic duel is the baseline then make them all like titanic duel and make them automatic Yeah, right. I don't care what baseline you pick just pick one And then either make them all a single dice or go or get what you definitely means that you'll need to rebalance Like any of the battle tone ones like that is just a consequence of this But sure that's just that's just something that will persist for the season until it gets updated. Yep And so like these things are as is being discussed in the comments right now Like these things are cognitive load, right? They are memory the number of times where like my regular opponents I often play with will be like i'm gonna stop which one is that on is that on the two upper the three up These are people who've played Warhammer third edition many games doesn't it does these games Okay Yes weekly and that's just because they don't they're not that emotionally invested in the game Right they play because it's fun It's fun time right and So just putting this thing either behind no dice or a single die and it's always this either one removes that Because then they know just oh, yeah, okay. I do the thing. I either got the three upper didn't when it's a set static function It vastly reduces cognitive load even minor variance Has an exponential weight On people and it would be mental load It would be great if they did that as well for For heroic actions Yeah, sure more like no more role to see if you can do this Okay, you automatically do it or everything has to trigger a role 100 agreed Yes, I think heroic actions are the same boat and again I would be fine if I would love it if we could bring them all onto the same system Right in some way But if we're going to keep the distinction that heroic actions are one of and monstrous actions are one each If that's how we're going to do it Which fine if that's what we're going to do It's fine Then uh then like I would still much rather we just put them all behind the same dice gate Like if they're all on a three up just make them all accordingly powerful Like use roar as the baseline and make sure everything is like looks like roar done And then monsters have a purpose and heroes have a purpose and stuff like that Okay, Gareth. I love that you acknowledge that. Yeah, I mean is there's nothing there's nothing wrong with it. Yes No, there isn't and it's easy, but it just shows that like we have so many other things going on Yes, that oftentimes it's just easy to slip even for those that are playing Do you have any times I forget my monstrous rampages because of the timing issue? Because you want to get into combat It's not only is it happening at the end of a phase which is the worst time to remember anything It's also happening right before the most exciting thing you do in the game Which is I'm going to pick a unit to fight for the first time in the combat phase. This is what I want to do This is why I play warhammer. Everybody's excited to go do that thing I want to go punch somebody in the face, right? Like that's what you're excited to do and now you have to stop and be like, wait, wait, wait I'm gonna stomp on you Jake definitely not No, because then that's just more complexity. I definitely don't like does it suck to get roared? Sure, but it's fine like okay. It's just that's life, you know If roar is too strong then then move them all down And don't have something as powerful as roar. That's the answer that kind of additional back and forth No more more dice rolling for no purpose. No, no, definitely not. That's bad very bad But yes as assistant ref said, let me count the times I've spent five minutes agonizing on a stomp versus roar and then just roll to one Exactly That's why you put the dice roll first. It's just like the most obvious thing Okay So there's that there's that I wanted to start with just a minor item because that's real in the weeds, but it's I think it's it's impactful quality of life change, right? Like this is what additions are supposed to do is streamline to cut and to tighten Right, like you like ideally you want to make a cleaner system and cut is really important Yes, cut is the step we often don't take and that's how we get to bloat That then causes us to need to blow the whole house up and rebuild Right, uh, so we're talking there's gonna be plenty of cuts here Battle tactics speaking of cuts battle tactics out of the base game boot is gone They're into battle packs only and they can they still exist. I'm not getting rid of battle tactics Don't worry battle tactics lovers They still exist. They just live in battle packs only So some battle packs will have battle tactics. For example, the ghp, which we'll talk about later Okay, and it's event-based battle pack Will absolutely have battle tactics in it 100% might not, you know, or there might be one that's an event-based fun design That doesn't have that and that can be okay, too. All right, and so But we can have other battle packs that don't have it in it But the base game does not assume have to assume a battle tactic The base game assumes the primary loop which is objectives and holding objectives and fighting That's the primary loop We can just shoot battle tactics in the face We we're not going to go that far. They have a lot of value Which I would be okay with we can just jettison them. We don't need them Yeah, don't lie to yourself. We don't need them We could redesign them in 20 million ways and I would be okay with that as well But a you know what the perfect time to do that is add an addition change and that's fine I'm okay with all of that You but a secondary objective system as part of a competitive battle pack absolutely makes sense It's useful for it's useful for a load of different things. It's good skill testing It's good score separation like secondary objectives in Competitive event-based battle packs should be there. Do they have to be exactly the battle tactics we have now? No, they could take it We're gonna call them battle tactics. Tom whatever form they have because we've picked that name I I'm okay saying That we have secondary objectives. Yeah I am not okay saying the battle tactics as currently implemented Just make their way they migrate to battle to battle packs because uh, no No, I would be okay just shooting them in the face Because And we've we've done the show before right, but it just it creates reiterative same same Like cycle repetition gameplay I get it That is Boring B is boring. I would love to see battle tactics Explored in 20 different ways in the new edition like we get if we have done whole shows on this, right? They could become schemes and and even people who don't like battle tactics now are saying throw them into the sun You could very much like what they would become Under certain conditions, right if they became like a hidden scheme if they became Battle plan dependent where the battle plan itself generated the thing, right? Yeah, uh, like there's There's all sorts of options for what could be done here. Okay, and you could just I'm fine keeping the name All allow it the only the only challenge with keeping the name though Is that we're dealing with Battle tomes that will carry into the new world that will have that same name And so if they change dramatically or we just don't have book specific battle tactics anymore in 4.0 Which is also what we shouldn't have but but we're still gonna have the hangers on until we update the new Right. I mean if you switch the system I would be okay if all the FAQs come out day one and it's like ignore x page in your book Yeah, that's great. I'm okay with that gw make it happen You can do that for both battle tactics and battalion Sure We'll talk about battalions in a moment because those are those are those are also on my hit list here My point is we've got to do something with it. There's a lot of frustration I think out there with battle tactics as they are they just don't work for everyone and we have to accept that I know that there's a lot of people who love them. Some of those people are probably gw designers I get it. I really do and I think they do have value in some form Doesn't have to be exactly this form. Okay, but like a secondary objective system is still very important and Uh and and valuable and there's no reason we can't just like have a new system and then just say Hey, remember all those things there in your book? Nope, those aren't those don't work anymore as gareth just pointed out what they did with war scroll battalions in the change over into 3.0, right? like jettisoned all those into the sod and we we were fine, right? Okay, great We we know how to do that. Let's do that again right So so like at the change over we can we can make but they but nonetheless whatever they are They should not be part of the base game like the core rules and whatever basic battle pack comes with that They should not be assumed Okay Okay Uh, george southerland Hey, what's up george? Hope you're doing well brother. Hey vince related to battalions. What about enhancements? Well george? I'm glad you asked let's talk about the enhancement cleanup First of all section 27. We're going to rewrite basically this whole section because it's incomprehensible to a new player right now. It's a mess Uh It's so like that's number one, but number two We're going to actually make some interesting artifacts and command traits that people want to take That open up new avenues of play and things like that without being Uh auto picks can that be done? Yes Yes, it can Is that a high bar? Absolutely. Am I saying it's easy? No No, it's not But this is the most important thing you're going to make So invest the time. This is a foundational element Okay So we're going to clean up this section Um And we're going to make things that are First of all, we're going to make this section comprehensible That says like You get these things Here's how it works in your army Your general will pick one of these You get to assign one of these things to a hero Every wizard gets one of these right like it's going to be very Okay, and we're going to make sure the choices are relatively even and interesting And they're going to be like play style-ish focused in broad based ways Okay Uh And there you go like Do I have exactly what the answers to what those things should be are? No No, I don't But that's not like it's gonna do it. No one person does No one designer anything people should write a list and then they should be play tested to high heck and back And given out for feedback to play testers and things like that Who then work their way through a process of design development and uat into a clean tight set That's what should be done Okay And so, you know Yes, uh frog arm said how to enhancement work is absolutely the most common new player question. I agree People like this happens all the time Right, I I get this question so often And I just think we could write that section better if we're going to have this generic enhancement system Which I don't even know if we need it could just as easily be like your general gets a command trait You get an artifact you get to pick you know sign one artifact to a hero And then you know blah blah blah and so on and so forth, right But if you want to keep the enhancement thing fine, we can Um, we just have to clean up that section Okay Any any any I mean this one feels very like straightforward, right? Yes. Yeah I agree. Give me a flow chart. Give me a pictogram. Yeah, absolutely. It's like a written example Um Okay, fine Good, that one's just more like we would like to see that Tom, do you have any thoughts on items or command traits that should be generic? Do we want to take a swing at any of those? items or command traits That should be in the generic set Um I don't know probably not five up wards Uh, well, I don't know if we're gonna keep all the word cutting through. I think it might be fine, but yeah I mean unless you're putting like a wound cap on it Um, or like a keyword restriction no monsters or whatever. Sure. Um, I don't know I just Like I know obviously you're fishing for something like arcane tome or whatever and I'm not fishing for anything over here You know like I I think that there is a value to generic art. I really do. I agree. Um I they just need to be good And they need to be competitive or they probably need to be less competitive than battle tone Art artifacts, but that just means battle tone artifacts need to be written. Well, that's the right answer Yeah, I mean to me. This is actually a pretty simple set of things. You ready? Okay, I'm gonna give you I'm gonna give you my four. Tell me what you think of these. You ready, Tom? Here's my four Five up word, but it can't go on a hero with more than I can't go on a whatever they call the big hero the ten wound plus zero nine wounds or less only Okay, number one. Sure. Number two Wizard book only works on non wizards Doesn't do anything for existing wizards okay And uh, but it's a wizard book makes you a wizard I'll even let you pick a spell Are you even set from your sub faction from your sub faction? Sure. You can get a spell your wizard now your wizard area Congratulations. I just you just it's better than the current arcade jungle worse than the old version. I understand sure Yep, okay Still not as good as the old version because it doesn't add anything to existing wizards It's for it's there for armies that don't have wizards still can't go on a corn person Right second. Okay, uh, the holy scriptures become a priest get a prayer Okay And like the sort of real scariness Hit you harder the sort of damage the sort of hit you harder. Uh, plus one to wound and plus one damage That's pretty strong. Whatever. Sure. Maybe there's a limitation on it. Like you can't have a mount or something. I don't know Whatever there you go. Yeah So one for one defensive one hitty And two utility. Yeah two opening up additional things your army might not have that could end up being relevant to to stuff Right, right the synergy stuff Yep There you go. Um, that's not that sounds interesting to me. Sure There you go. Like the damage combatty one is automatically going to be worse Than the utility things unless it's unless it's pretty good So that's why I was hesitant on putting a restriction on because I'm not sure I really care if they even put it on like some mounted destroyer guy and give him plus one wound and damage like okay Cool on like one weapon. All right You know, what's the problem seems fine even if it is on a monster Like great, then we're playing warhammer. You know what I mean? Like it's fine Um, are those perfect? No, but that's where I'd start Right. Yeah. I mean, it's fine. It's it's fine. Yeah, they don't need to be They shouldn't be Upending the world or or or like incredibly specific or wackadoo or anything like that They should be pretty generic baseline stuff that's opening up particular builds and interesting avenues of play right, right, right um Something like that like and and they should just stay very simple and simple warpstone is joyous Why I wouldn't do that and I'm purposely staying away from the rend Because rend is naturally more powerful like then it then you could become a problem Right, like I'm picking plus one to wound and plus one damage because a lot of heroes are already on threes It'll push them to twos if they're already on a two as big monster heroes often are then it does nothing for them Right, like I was careful about my choices here and intentional right Yeah But if they if they try to slam that hero into something with a decent armor save They still just bounce because they are still stuck to whatever their normal rend is Yeah, right. Yeah, okay at any rate. There's a list like that That list is fine. I think people would choose different things on there The second you put both wizard and priest on there, you'd get people choosing different things Correct, right away um So like yeah, there you go I would also love to see formalization of some language So my example here is bodyguard and ward, but it's far from the only example Um, please just whatever the copy paste is you need in your rules text. Um, can we please make it so Uh, yeah, sure call it the sort of striking. Yeah, that wasn't that that was the name of it. Yes um Please make it so the Or obsidian blade wasn't that wasn't that another one? I'm trying to remember my old generic Artifacts out of the out of the core, you know, six seventh eighth book um But like can we just make it standard that when you bodyguard it replaces the ward and the other unit doesn't get a Ward save in addition like that these things all just work in a unit make it you fall. Yeah. Yeah, just that'd be nice Yeah, that'd be it'd be great just stop Making these things work differently when there's no need for them to work differently Like if a unit has some reason to work Specifically differently like if you that's why I that's why I'm not saying here. I want key worded abilities Yeah, because I don't Right I don't want first strike or whatever. Sure, right I just want the language to be unified unless there's a good reason for it to be different Yeah, that's all that's all Um, that feels That feels very Low ballish Yeah, yeah Okay, so now let's low hanging fruit now. Let's move on to the next one. Here we go tom uh Okay rewrite Core battalions, uh, well cw. Let me address this real quick cw kerner said exception-based design. Why is nothing the same? Yeah, sure Um, well because I don't that's absolutely right because the the beauty of exception-based design And I know cw's being a bit flippant. I just want to answer this because it's an interesting tangent for a moment is With exception-based design you can do whatever you need you can write whatever you need if you need to make a Unit different you can do so. It's fantastic Yeah, right You can you can do this wonderful top-down design to make every unit feel like it should But if you're going to give roughly or basically the same ability then just do the same ability Okay um I don't like usrs because usrs become very quickly worthless after you create about 10 of them and there would be a lot more than 10 of them Um, us universal special rules when you have 80 of them as a game like this would have are not universal special rules They are hiding rules That's it. They just hide rules Because you knew I look at my war scroll and it says first strike Trample whatever i'm using magic keywords, but the but the point is is that like that's what it says and then there's no explanatory text And so I have to go read somewhere else to figure out what this thing actually does Right, and if you're going to print the whole text, then you don't need a universal special rule Which is what you should do Like usrs are just literally a bad step removed Just write the text Okay, yeah, you just make the text the same everywhere it should be Rewrite core battalions. Let's do this here. We go tom. We ready? Yeah, let's work. It was just like Just like have six good battalions Why do we have three right now that anybody takes and three that are complete in total trash? And by the way, it's it's that's not a that's like a it's a perfect pyramid There's one at the top and it's called battle reg Right, and then there are two Below it that are warlord and command entourage that are like, yeah, you take this if you don't care about being one drop Right, you try to get six years in your list. This is your this is your um This is your uh Alternate gift right like this is what you get. This is your consolation prize and then you have the three at the bottom of the pyramid of Names I can't I couldn't even tell you what they're called Could even and they just do things that no one takes correct because they don't do anything. Well, that's number one They don't actually do anything right, so That's a problem. I understand they give you a once ish per game thing that sometimes gets used right, right um the What I want to see here Is first of all we can keep unified as a concept mm-hmm There's nothing wrong With unified as a concept. I think it's a very reasonable thing to put into a battalion What we should not have written into the battalion is a unified battalion where you can actually Fit your whole army into it Yes, right Unified should be a army reducing Like drop reducing option Right exactly where there's a slice of your army you can choose to fit into it And maybe you could even double up take it a couple times and really knock your drops down now But you're making choices to not get other actual benefits in favor of drops you know honestly Something like warlord is a pretty good baseline to work off of right now You can't fit your whole army in warlord. It does give you an interesting set of bonuses Get command point bonus enhancement, right, which is often an artifact, but not always yeah, okay That feels like the way the other five should look If batredge was rewritten so that you couldn't put your whole army into it So it's you know a bunch of troops and an artillery and all the leaders you would want and so on and so forth, right If it was if it was like if we took Let's say let's what if we took command entourage Okay, something like that yeah and We made that the unified battalion So you could take a bunch of single drop heroes shove them into a single drop You let three or four heroes pile into that thing Okay, yeah, now that's doing something right you're making a choice of do you go for the magic item? Do you go for the drops? Right So As long as like I have no Concern with that sort of concept Existing and sure warpstone. Yeah, they'll always be Because the structure of some armies, they'll always be some that are ahead in the drop wars. They'll always be some that don't care I've literally never thought about at all about drops For my scaven never once never will It's irrelevant And I disagree chase. I absolutely disagree chase says you're just setting up an infinite regress Well, first of all, it's not infinite because there's literally a number where it would it could go to so it's it's definitely not infinite Not to be a pedantic jerk But he said even if you can't fit your entire army in it, you'll be able to out drop opponents as the functional new one drop will you will you If let's imagine the only unified that exists is the thing I just mentioned and it's required to maximum four heroes That's the only unified that occurs in the list Right, okay Now your drops are that first of all most armies take between two and four heroes Basically every army does Okay, so every army has a pretty equal shot to want to get at this thing Yeah, okay Now if you also make the warlord require three base heroes Okay, then you've got then all of a sudden you get to this point where now you're having to make some interesting choices Because you can't put maximum in the drops But you also if you go minimum then you have five heroes at least and stuff like that, right? So those are the kind of thing like you could construct this house of cards So that you're making a real decision About what is worth it more to you getting down from seven drops to six from six to five Or five to four maybe there maybe there is just some lowest number Sort of the best army could reach and maybe that's four or five drops or something like that Fine, sure But then opening up the world being in between like four at the absolute lowest and that's quite rare Because somebody had to really cut to the bone And 13 at the highest or 14 or you know, whatever the sort of Highest number of units armies take like knight hawn or scaven Right now there's actually play in that space Okay Uh, and I just I completely disagree chase. I just absolutely disagree like there's no reason it has to be that new thing Because if those people want to go to the drops one of the reasons that one drop has been used so much Batredge has been used so much Is because there was just no other good battalions if you look at bat red usage usage over time. This is a tracked stat Yeah, it drops like a rock when bounty hunters came out Yep, okay. Why was suddenly one drop bad? No There was just a better choice Or at least an equal choice There was something else that actually competed with being at one drop and so drops suddenly Spiked way up like the number of average drops in the meta at that time period say what you will about bounty hunters The number of drops in the meta spiked way up Yeah Okay, yeah, so I know this is possible because history already proved it Right, but they can it can be written. Well, yeah I mean like bounty hunters wasn't written well for a host of reasons, right? But but But we don't have to recreate bounty hunters like we can make things their tradeoffs Garrett says I think explicit enhancements rather than any would be a better warlord thing This battalion gives you an extra spell. This gives you an artifact. Sure. I could go for that. Absolutely Right, yeah, I could do it So like there's there's there's certainly a world we could we could operate in here Again if unified went away, I don't care. I wouldn't really sleep over it, but I do think it's an interesting lever to pull right Um And but what I really want to see at the core here is like this is an interesting battalion that I can put some troops in And it does something Yeah, yeah Right Yo, it actually functionally does something Yeah for that unit of troops something I want to have occur And I just I can't like I just can't believe we couldn't find it something That was valuable for that. I mean you'd think Something would be out there, right? Sure Yeah Okay cool Finally battle shock change Uh, I want to throw battle shock I want to eat it into the sun tom I'm done with it Yeah, I mentioned this last week Everybody's been clamoring that like battle shock is like about leadership means nothing and battle shock is Isn't a thing and blah blah blah forever If it was everybody would hate it It would be the worst part of the game right as somebody who plays uh Like scaven where you're making battle shock tests all the time Another fun thing that happens with new soul light is they have that spell that just does one mortal wound every unit on the Get on the table. Yeah Really fun when your whole army is bravery four and five. Let me tell you what that's just a very fun spell It's amazing how that works. Yeah And you know what just super sucks is rolling a ton of battle shock tests. It's awful Just pulling models for no reason that didn't get to do anything just sucks Yes, caven player hates battle shock news at 10. Yeah, exactly right and As as yes, that's george and uh and and uh Ln rdi you're going exactly where I was going Uh, which is you know Some version like new 40k where you can't contest objectives or something like that is a potential doesn't have to be that thing But where the unit is diminished in some way Okay Like once they get under it. So the way You know the sort of they have like a half strength or number or something like that in 40k I don't know exactly The new one apparently and so like you get under that thing You start rolling a check if you fail. I guess you can't contest objectives or something like that Sure, okay And you capture differently or less or again, I don't I don't know exactly But but you get the general concept right that it does something the unit doesn't just evaporate or disappear They become diminished in some way Yeah, but they're still there. They're still on the table I don't know if objective like zotting out objective capturing would be the right way to go. That's also very very strong Right, and just like one bad dice roll means suddenly a unit of 30 people counts to zero feels like maybe not the right way to go You know seems problematic, right, but Again, there's an answer. Yeah, uh, there you go. Like herald of monway would be thematic if they could not receive commands Sure, something like that where suddenly they can't receive or issue commands anymore Right because they're sort of sure like they're shooken. They've done been shook tom, right? They're battle-shocked right Whatever Right. Yeah, I'm in for that. Yeah. Yeah, like there's uh You know, there's there's a lot that we could Do with that space That doesn't have to be exactly what 40k is doing nor exactly what we do. I just know that like mass pulling models is dumb and sucks Yeah, nobody likes to do that, right And the more things we introduce into the game with terror and the more we show off inspiring presence the more people get a taste of it Over over theoretically the next year The more people are going to be like, oh wait. No, I actually hate this Like this is a this is a monkey's paw if there ever was a wish, right? I wish battle shock meant something and the monkey paw curls and it's like not from my army I meant for everybody else I want other people to just randomly run and lose models not me Yeah, right. It's great until it happens to you and you're like man, this is this is very terrible All right, so there you go Sure anything else on these are these are all just core rule stuff No, I think those are all all of those core changes to me just make sense. Yeah Good. All right. Let's keep going Battle packs. Let's talk battle packs, tom Always ready Okay Uh Battle packs Yep Simplifies How much of a miss has this been just in general? Let's just pause for a moment, right? Complete miss and we have this wonderful technology and we haven't used it at all At all we use it once in season of war thondia We're like here. Here's a food replicator. Look. I can make gum drops. Right. It's just earl gray Hot It's all it makes Yes All right Yeah, just it's it's such a miss. It's so disappointing. But you know what? The reality is that we can change that folks. We have that. I don't know. I mean GW has this incredible technology of battle packs And Uh, there's no reason that we can't put this to good use. So let's do it How are we going to use them in in 4.0? Well, we're going to have a simplified starter battle pack with six six six six how many this many six solid battle plans Those are in the core book That is a battle pack you can play with six Fun battle plans that do not use whatever version of battle tactics exists and is you know Like we're not we're not we don't need to not use rules We're just using the the simplified version of the game in a simple battle pack That's it Yeah, okay That's one Two we're gonna have a multiplayer battle pack with how many six six solid multiplayer battle plans It'd be great. Imagine that wouldn't that be neat? Be great lots. It turns out this is a fun way to play warhammer and I would love to see some nod to it You have 300 pages in this stupid core book cut out Four pages of random studio people's armies Okay, like I don't no offense. I know they worked hard on them. I'm very happy for them that they have an army But uh, you can post that in a warcom article Uh, you didn't need to be printed in the book and put in real things that are valued to me All right As a consumer Yeah, right Uh, and So there you go Uh, and then every uh, what do I mean by multiplayer? Ah, great question. I mean more than two That's what I mean So this could be I can see lots of iterations of this this could be three plus This could be four players Team games like two on two or sorry doubles. I apologize Would that be nice? Yes Uh, that's what I mean by multiplayer Okay um and Cygnus said what about a small game beginner battle pack with smaller maps fewer objectives We'll touch on that in a second. I I do have a I I have a I have an item specifically for that uh Cygnus Uh one year generals handbooks they're going to be there one year I don't know what this six month nonsense is but that that stops Immediately wouldn't that be great if it just wasn't if it just wasn't we're going to do one year generals handbooks in 4.0 And we're going to do that battle pack is going to be focused on event plan. I want 12 solid event focused battle plans Whatever battle tactics are They're they're in here Right these things are we as we've discussed these minimize Instant sudden losses these minimize weird random things They are event battle plans meant to be consumable where a to can pick basically any five And be confident they're going to run a good tournament using those five in relatively any order Yeah If every year Or every ghp or whatever we want to say every ghp we've managed to create like six or seven That are good event battle plans. Just stop creating the other five Just just Just go back Harvest the ones that were good Figure out what made them good before and then make them all 12 Yeah, and if you want to know which ones they are just this show we've covered it We've scored them every time a ghp has come out Yeah And yes, absolutely agreed here like Create in this event pack put an actual unified event scoring system like even if it's just a sample This is how we recommend you score your tournament. Yeah, here you go. Yeah. Yeah Empower the to's so they don't have to figure that out on their own Yeah Right. Yeah Okay It seems so Simple and only it was Yeah, we can call it an event battle pack tournament battle pack. I don't care It could be whatever Right. Well, what's in a name? I just that's what its focus is Right And so then We can introduce additional battle packs over the course the addition like a doubles or a doubles focused battle pack Teams I'd love to see a teams focused battle pack in here. I mean teams like like that weird European style they play with team captains and a bunch of nonsense. I don't know. It's weird We'll allow it This it's fine. They seem to all really have a good time playing with it And I'd love to see a battle they enjoy it. So sure it could be in there Try infantry siege like whatever. This is just you can imagine the list Yeah, yeah But let's use this technology Okay, did I miss anything here Tom? No, I mean, I think that that really captures What's right? Like it's just it's really easy to miss that And it's really easy for them to feel driven to keep reinventing the wheel when we get like a perfect Like when we get the platonic battle pack or battle plan, right leave it leave it alone Let it just carry forward If you have to create a rule don't carry any more than six forward in any given year Right, yeah, I mean like always just half of them are new Again, like I I think that it's perfectly feasible to do 12 Solid event focused battle plans. We know what makes an event battle plan at this point No one away scoring no random sudden loss Diminish randomness overall in how things do Skill test through things like objective removal and deployment No long side to long side when tables are butt to butt everywhere like there's a There is a very Simple reality of what makes a good event battle plan If there wasn't we couldn't sit there and score these and then basically our scoring that we do At the launch of every ghp if you then map that on to what things are actually played in events It's pretty dead on So I'm not saying we have like a tremendous insight not at all. I'm saying it's common sense Okay, you're saying just do the math gw. I'm saying relocation orb Isn't yeah an event battle plan and everybody knows it Right. Yeah, yep I mean you're just preaching the prize of gala is There you go Yep, yep No, I agree with that I do so like Again, and they know the problem with it is they've been trying to make the general's handbook not an event play Like those battle plans aren't meant to be the event play battle plans. They're meant to be like the year's battle plans And some of these can be used for events. No, no, no, no stop it Persona-based design who is the targeted user for this product? Right, by the way, the ghp could have other battle packs in it I'd love to see a ghp with like some of these other battle packs I'm talking about also introduced that would be the book I'd slide them in on Like I'd love to see the teams battle pack and then the generic event battle pack both occurring in a ghp one year And then the next year they do a a triumphant treachery went in there like who cares great I'm saying the user persona for the event battle pack the tournament the to consuming battle pack should be 12 event battle plans Sure the problem and so it's it's not as though. I think they're just dumb I don't think they are at all I think they're actually like some of really like I think they are a really really smart team I just think they've been trying to serve too many masters by splitting these battle packs out I think that they'll they'll get to a world where where the actual user who wants to use them is being properly served by what occurs in the battle pack Okay. Yeah, I would agree with that cool There we go. All right. That one's less controversial pretty straightforward By the way, I I really can't state enough that I really want to see a new multiplayer battle pack with six solid battle plans And by this I mean like three plus players Um, I cannot explain how often this is useful to me. I can't be the only human on the planet who regularly plays three player games Um, or four player games. No, it's just you. It's just me. Yeah, I guess But uh, you know, we mentioned it when we were doing the the the look back show and and that ghp 2017 was an all time banger So, please let's uh, let's let's have that occur. I don't need it more than once in addition I'm not asking for much I'm asking for like 13 pages in some book once in an addition Maybe less you could probably squeeze it to seven insanity I feel I feel my ask is quite reasonable Okay Cool anything else on battle packs tom? No, I think it sounds good. Okay Armies Uh, so this one is a little interesting one Because what I would what I want to do here with armies Is not go through all 25 armies. Now. I want to see them change. I know that's way too massive Okay, uh Can't go for it. I really don't know. I really don't know is the answer. Um What I mean by armies is I would love to see them establish a sort of vision document at the start of the addition To put a general box around the themes rules and plans for every army at the onset of the addition Okay If it was me and I was doing this if like if I was product managing this I would ask my my Effectively, I would have my designers do an analysis And that's this would be this would be an elaboration sprint basically. Sure. Okay. Sure and I would the output of this Would be a no more than four page document describing the general themes Conceptual rules and focuses of the army at a high level Okay, okay To where What I am Uh That that will then act as the guiding document when it comes time To make that actual book and you will operate as the designers within the bounds of that book Of that of that bible you've created of that four page bible Okay So like Uh in other words This will help you establish and see early on The design space you want to explore these don't need to be fleshed out ideas. They are very high level Right, so let's take an easy example here corn right In my corn document it would say things like Should be melee focused Right. Sure. Uh Should rely on units dying friendly or enemy to achieve More power hence plays a strong attrition game and is stronger in the late game Mechanics that explore interesting ways to profit or manipulate Are you know off of units dying? Okay No magic has a heavy priest focus Um no strong focus on monsters in the traditional sense other than bloodthirsters Okay, um is an army of you know mostly People dudes non monster units, right? Um design space to explore Would be things like heroic actions special heroic things because corn is an army that pushes for its heroes to excel Above all else and separate themselves from the pack All right, so explore interesting ways for level up potential potential areas for exploration Level up mechanics, you know heroes sort of get more powerful on doing and accomplishing certain things new heroic actions Stuff like that right and that'd be the vision document. You get it. Yeah. Yeah I would do one of those for all 25 armies Yeah, so it provides basically design guidelines for when they get to there. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense and uh And and what I would love Is then what that would hopefully help them spot early on Is when some army is going to be reaching into some other army's Bowl and stealing some of their candy Yeah, right Like it would help them more separate the identities of the armies because several times. I think we've seen things where Game design space was being pushed For an army and it didn't need to be that's not the identity of that army Why we're exploring that here because we got a cool idea to explore that thing, right, right? And it's not a great place to identify Like uh terrain no train. Yep Yep Sure, like imagine a world where we had had that textbook Yeah, where they'd known that like hey, this is like this is pre-designated to for this army or not for this army Yeah Um, and so like as as sickness just said development guardrails. Yes This effectively by like the team's gonna come together and create this documents. Everybody has to agree. This is what we're gonna do It's not like this is being dictated Right. This is an emergent property of the entire team And then when it comes time for the the book itself to be written Then you're operating within those guardrails. You don't go outside of the guardrails. That's why they're guardrails And you know that that army's going to have a unique identity in the same way it would have a unique silhouette on the table Yeah, yeah, right. I think that makes sense. Yeah And yes, as josh a said poor mall tribes, right? Ogres are the classic example of this Where everybody just reaches in and takes everything the ogres have constantly We count as moral objectives. No, everybody else does that too. We get to do mortal wounds in the charge everybody else does that too, right like it's just Everybody just takes their stuff and to the end to the point where they have nothing unique about them Right, right. They've lost their identity. That was right Whereas if we if we establish this document, we can create those division lines Yeah, right. We can also have you know sort of Key important things be really honed in on Early up like like okay. Hold on. This is going to be the The regenerating army Okay, then we need to be careful about how many models we allow them to put on the table in general or or you know How how expensive everything is or whatever or or or right? like you could break the document down into You know concept Areas to explore risks Yeah, yeah Right and that would end up just being a very powerful tool To kick off the actual design process when it comes time to write those those books, right, right, you know I think it's absolutely worth investing the time in I mean you have to be willing to invest the the elaboration sprint into this Right and and to me it absolutely is Yeah, right. I would agree with that. Yeah um So, yeah, uh I think to me this is like the number one thing I'd want to see with armies because I think it would lead to the 4.0 books being the strongest they've ever been and you know what we see Like Because here would be the advantage of it is that you'd have unified vision from the beginning and this This the problem that we have of uneven books of uneven design from beginning to end Yep, um would evaporate in that sense or at least be minimized. It helps minimize. Yeah It helps minimize because what you're doing is you're looking at all the armies Exploring all the possible design angles before making decisions, right? Yep, um in putting things into print. No, I agree with that And again, this doesn't need to be a huge output. You're not trying to pre write the book This is written in normal human language. You don't have to worry about getting rules text. You don't have to worry about play testing This is concepts ideas explorations and risks Right, right So you can be quite loose. You can put this together quite fast comparatively Yeah, um, would you see this doc breaking it down to specific units? No, absolutely not Definitely not unless there's some key unit that's a central part of the faction as I mentioned with corn, right? So like no monster focus other than bloodthirsters. Well, there I reference the unit Not right really what you're doing, right? Yeah, you're but you're not operating at that granular level unless it's something so critical To the army that you feel like you need to mention it. So for example, the serif on document might mention the salon Sure, because he's such a central character to that arm. Yeah Yeah, right. Yeah, and so what you're going to communicate is something about Right and how the salon is going to function and how it's going to be unique in this Exactly exactly By by even mentioning a unit you've said something You're saying that it's just saying that it needs to have an identity that's significant for that thing Exactly Uh rule of cool war gaming would you also want guardrails for the addition ghb rules that stay within a range? Don't go exploring new rules and territory midway through this addition that ruin battle tomes that have already come Um, I think it's not a terrible idea to kind of sketch out an arc But I like you're always going to want the ghb to be pushing and exploring and bringing the seasons to the narrative To life in some way. I think you you do and should be careful about invalidating um Uh army books, you know, I mean that's like That's a problem. Yeah, it's you know, for example, it's generally not fun right now To play sons of bevmont in the current season Because you just don't really play the game You know, you're playing like some percentage of the game that isn't a hundred It doesn't feel like the game has been designed for you Right You're just kind of Not getting to participate You're existing in a space. You're being tolerated in a space that doesn't feel like you're actually playing the game Yes. Yes, exactly Um, yeah hammer hammer down 687 morathi would be another one. Yeah morathi would absolutely show up in the dock Or in the dock bible, right? Yeah. Yeah, that would be the type of thing where you could say something like You know, the army is flimsy except for morathi who should be unkillable or something, right? Yeah Yeah, like those are intentional design decisions But to me then like I would absolutely put that vision bible together at the start of the edition It would it would one because it it's going to catapult me to then Have some initial thoughts that I can then build on later. Oh neat We said let's explore maybe a level up or heroic action mechanic cool because this is the hero focused army It's corn. They they're all their heroes are all about being the best of the best of the best of the best Right and then by the time it comes for me to write the corn book I've got that baseline. I know that's the thing I want to do Maybe it's been bouncing around the back of my head as I worked on other books. I didn't try to write it into that book Right, I said, oh, that's a cool idea. I'm gonna note that back down Save that for the hero focus book. I know is coming. Yes. You're you're letting it be what it is for what it is Yep, that's good All right Cool Anything else what what else is there anything else on armies tom that you would want to see broad based Like what else when we think of armies writ large? Right, would we want to see I mean I think the point about hopefully don't invalidate armies on a ghb season you know Would would yes, hopefully You know, uh, I think that'd be nice I mean what I would say is this anytime that you're doing core games I would make sure that you're you are thinking about like we're doing core rules writing right as far as this this ground up situation Man, it would be great if they actually thought through and like, you know You're using the example validating an Right, but I think that They need to run they need to do iterations for their core core rules Through a lens of what if this is what if this is all in what if this is all the you know Because you'll get those skews in armies and I think that that's I think like that ends up showing It it's egregious examples where like armies don't feel like they fit likes like sons Right, but there are there are other permutations that you'll bump into this right in other combinations not specifically Sons, which is the entire army, but like portions of an army It it would be something that would be worth exploring. Yep. I'm silly Okay, cool. All right. Let's do some lightning round Lightning round. This is just grab bag time. Okay, things we'd like to see and I purposely left a couple items off this list But I have them in my notes Just because I wanted to foster the discussion. Okay, sure um All right lightning round stuff More balance at different points levels including an ease of starting to 40k for the new combat patrol for 10th This is something that I want to see I want to see the game have a You know the boxes the buy the buy the box paint the box play the box against the other box Like they're doing for combat patrol. I want to see that be a thing Okay, I want to see more balance different points levels I want to see the game have again could be a battle pack focused on the lower point level with with smaller maps and less objectives or more objectives or but they're You know, whatever whatever because they're closer. I don't know could be different things We could go a bunch of different directions right Like but I want to see More 500 point thousand point support. That's what those first two bullets break down to So a lot of permutations of what that could boil down to Better balance at that points level different battle packs at that level Ease of purchasing the product and getting going at that level Like let's create an actual On ramp for the game Okay That's it man. That's it. And I think I think they will do this I think this I if this isn't part of their thinking I will be shocked Because 40k is doing this right now and people have cheered this people are very excited about this Okay And and frankly I am too I think this is super cool Yeah, I mean, I think it's just a matter of them getting the design right Right, like that's that's what this is going to take Yes, and again, it's One of the so one of the ways they're doing it with combat patrol Uh, tom is I don't I don't know how tapped into like the the new 40k 10th edition thing you are But it's fine one of the ways they're doing it. You don't have to be one of the ways they're they're doing it is There are actually altered Scrolls data slates. What do you think of as war scrolls, right? for The combat patrol setting Okay That sort of simplify some things down. It's still mostly the same scroll It's just a slightly simplified version that's that makes it so when you buy this box It plays correctly against all the other boxes And they they talked about how they did a lot of playtesting and really focused hard on the playtesting and making sure all these boxes So they actually designed it for that. Yeah. Yeah yeah And like Maybe that's necessary. Maybe it's not a os isn't 40k. It never has been right like we already have simplified rules So maybe that kind of a thing isn't necessary, but I love the idea of having that and playtesting against each other And knowing like this is just our experience. Yeah It's just intentional design. Yep um, so like to me This is just this is a slam dunk. I I really do believe this has got to be part of their thinking I think the 40k thing is is already gotten such amazing feedback. I don't know how it couldn't be Yeah, I would agree with that like it just seems like a natural next step Right like they have to be aware that their way that they have an on-ramp problem right now have to Right, okay And so if that's the case then the first thing I would add this is this is the way I would fix that and so I just like if I can see it from 10 miles away There's no way they sitting there looking at sales numbers and stuff like that can't see it Sure, right. Sure Um, yeah, I mean that seems like a natural next step for them. Yep And again, yeah make these boxes around 100 ish dollars. I think that's a perfectly reasonable sort of buy-in point And and there you go. You're good. Yeah, it's your best chance to grow your grow your grow your actual customers Not everybody's going to move up to the full 2k game, but some people will Right, right. It's a lot better than than having no easy way to do it other than just having people Bulldoze their way through it. Right. Well, it's just a natural starting point, right? Right exactly Okay, the next one is just more of a thing I want to see more continuation of quarterly balance battle scrolls with points and rules changes With points and yeah rules changes. I want to see both of these things Weird wouldn't that be nice? I know we're we're still seemingly against changing rules. I don't care change the rules Um, I really don't care the book as a historical artifact at best at this point Um, like just just A better game is worth it. Period. Yeah. Yes. Like right Correct. Why would the choice be? I'm going to knowingly make our product worse Because we don't want to annoy people who bought a book Yeah, well one improve the development process. So you have to change this kind of stuff less That's number one, right like an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure But two if the patient's sick Doctor heal thy patient Okay Sure, that's it. Yeah. All right Uh more careful balance of summoning regeneration and restoration mechanics. We've seen these things flipped around a lot We talked about last week on overused mechanics Yep, uh, I think that we're we're throwing a lot of these things around and they're ramping up in various and sundry ways Lots of units respawning onto the battlefield in big ways And I'm not seeing the actual overall game Adjust to the fan like two of the top armies right now are armies that respawn Basically entire units onto the battlefield Yep, and and or and or cause of like they they have this hilarious combination both the like two of the top armies right now I have this hilarious combination of basically auto causing mortal wounds to things that fight them Yeah, and then respawning the unit when it dies Yeah, so they can't lose basically they can't lose the attrition war Correct. They could be zoned out, but yes, I understand. Sure. Yeah. Yeah Well, it's hard to zone them out when all your stuff's dying, but yes, I mean, that's sure Uh, so I just want to see a lot more focus on this like I don't have a problem with these mechanics But they need to be used very carefully these things are fire and if you don't if you're not careful, don't burn your house down Yeah Uh, more careful balance of out of phase actions. This is the other one I'm playing around with out of phase stuff. We're we're getting a little hinky with some recent tomes on some out of phase things I'm looking at you murder lust Okay, but you're not alone. It's funny of other ones And so, you know, I know all the corn players are immediately going to be like, it's not that bad I don't care. I don't care I don't care Uh It's just like These things need to be watched there. There's this out of phase stuff is very very strong It's a very strong and we need to like pay attention to that Right. Um in magic when you hand out flash To things that don't have flash that's usually a mechanic that they watch very carefully Because they know that turning something that's normally not You know instant speed interaction into instant speed interaction Wildly changes his power level Yep It's the same thing we we should have learned this with fighting out of phase We should have learned this with shooting out of phase. We should have learned this with strikes first Sure. Yep. Exactly. All of these things what I'm talking about. Okay. Yeah Now I purposely left two things off this list, but don't worry. I've seen him mentioned in the chat But these I wanted to be open discussion to end on we've talked about them a lot on the show Yep, so here's here's the two things that I've purposely left off this list Is cohesion and terrain Okay Yeah, because I wanted to get I think action needs to be taken on both of these things All right, but I wanted to have a little take from both of us on coherency Unit cohesion and terrain. Let's start with coherency Okay, okay What what if anything Tom, would you change about coherency and 4.0? You can pull units out of cohesion As long as they so they in which that either then At the end of the term Or um as long as they like pile back into cohesion or Is that correct? That's I'm talking through the You can't the current rule is you cannot forcibly move Out of cohesion, but you can be pulled out of it. Yes Then you have to like so on your next move you have to get back into cohesion So the the the easy way to fix cohesion shenanigans Would be just to make it when you pull models can't remove models that would A loss of What's that you cut out there at the end? You're yeah that you that when you pull models Can't pull models in a way that that makes it out of cohesion Okay, do you want to see a change to general cohesion distance or count? Let me give you two easy examples Okay, uh count is the answer. Okay, because we could play with distance Yeah, you could go to like the you could go to a two inch and cohesion co cohesion You don't you shouldn't have to maintain it if if your six models are like the five number five is the magic number that's Got it Because you could take a big swing You could do like unicohesion x-enches from the unit champ or something like that Which is a rule. I don't actually like in this particular setting. I like the fact that you can sometimes form odd shapes I think there is a interesting skill testing element to that um, but there is a there is a there obviously a version of them in many games is like they're sort of A central figure a champion or something like that and then everybody has to be within x-enches of that person Otherwise they can be however Yeah, and I would be okay with that. Um, I would also be okay tinkering not only six or more also with particular shaped model And so what I mean by that is this things that are oval I wouldn't mind them having like having different cohesion rules. Okay, and I know that that like that's complexity I know that in general Yeah, I don't Oh good. I think that Cav bases Have almost uniformly been bad sure Other than being like five model Five either chaff or sit in a line and run forward That's exactly like it that's being used in ways that not wasn't necessarily intended, right? I think that um, I think that we could there could be some interesting cohesion With them and it could even be like a keyword based that Like mounted models may have a different vision Role Like if you have a mount cohesion looks different. So I wouldn't mind tinkering with that as well. Sure Yeah, to me. I think the like I if we suddenly went to the like x distance around a champion I probably wouldn't like it. I don't think it needs it Um, I do think at minimum at minimum Yeah, the Five models or less needs to go to six models or less like that is just flat minimum And I would actually rather it go to 11 or less Okay, because what we're trying to stop the bad behavior that was being corrected for with the cohesion rules is wild daisy chaining And you know, it's just being all catty wampus Correct. Okay. No, I agree. If you went if you went to 10 or lower, I think that are you know, like uh, like 11 or lower. Yeah, 11 or lower I think you're fine. Do we ever have an instance? The yeah 11 model units. Yes, there are multiple 11 model units because of like war cry things and Bliss barbs and stuff like that. But yeah the The point of it being like I don't actually see Any any issue With like 10 models Standing in a line Who cares who cares 10 models stand in a line? First of all 25 millimeter models can still just be 10 models standing in a line Under current cohesion coherence. That actually works So like it's just dumb Uh, that it that it like this one unique base size can still stand like that But everyone else has to do this Yes Correct Right So let's just admit that the actual problem The problem is when people take clouds of 2030 60 Models and try to daisy chain them around the board like lunatics Okay So put the harder restrictions On the 11 plus models and let people just play with their freaking toys when they have six model elite units Okay like because Because like I would be okay if saying you know You need to come forward tom. You're like 50 feet from your mic and it's cutting out Stay near your mic If you're more than 11, um, I wonder if the right answer isn't just within Holy within nine inches of the command model Yeah, and again, that's a perfectly fine. Like you could go that strategy. That's sort of the legion model, right? And and you know, I I generally it's my my only issue with that is I do think there is a valid thing To like it gets hinky because we have so many different weird base sizes Right And I know a lot of people like this, but there's a lot of secondary consequences that flow out of that choice Okay Legion is like a lot of people who are mostly on the same size base. There there are variances, of course. I understand that But yeah, like we have a lot of units that often on wildly different size bases Okay And it gets weird when there is no champion because there's plenty units that don't have a champion models So who do I measure from? Where like I want to be in a weird boot pattern or something like that and it would tend to be outside that range It's not a problem. It's just me setting up like, you know a picket l or something like that, right? And so I I That's why I I wouldn't it's not like I think it's the end of the world if we went to some legion style thing Right And something like nine inches or 12 inches is a very forgiving distance Like you could find the right distance that would be that would minimize the annoyance Okay No, yeah to be to be clear gareth. What we're saying is is that Cohesion would only be within one inch like on 11 or less You still have to be within one inch of an in it or an ally But you don't have to create these like triangles of being within one inch of two two models. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah The advanced coherency rules kick in at 12 models is what I'm saying. Yes. Yes So you can as like cohesion so exists you still have to be within one of your models It's the problem is is when you're having to like create triangles on the end another Hinky stuff because you need to be within Um an inch of two other models. That's when this falls off the rails for a lot of these big you Like big based units. Yes. I that's why I think the the the legion style coherency is taking a hammer to a to a It's just like it's taking a sledgehammer to a nail Right. Like the actual problem we have right now. It's not like again, if that was the choice fine I just I don't think it's a solution that we it's a very big change and it's not necessarily a change we need What we do need to do is make it so I can play six person units That are functional That's it And 10 person units that are functional. That's it Okay, and Like that's why um You know, that's why it's just like it's great. That's the major problem Six models of pain that took us to play right now. I'd like to see it fixed So by by expanding it up to 11, you just get that nice inclusion of 10 model units Fun times For me, it's the it's 10 calf model 10 calf bases. That is the Is the real pain like I just want to run 10 10 cabinet unit. Why can't I do that? Sure? Why do I always have to run by? sure um, and so like I just feel like this is that's a sort of that I could I like I said, I would see if they if they went to the wider currency thing like exist in the cloud The the legion rules are or whatever you want to call it like it's just it's just a cloud mechanic everybody has to be within the the electron cloud of of the Right of the leader. Um, fine. Like again, I'm not gonna throw my fists up. I think it's like the worst thing in the world It would still be better than than what we have now that is for It's fine. Yes. I would just rather not hit this particular nail with a sledgehammer all right The other one terrain I mean the answer here is the terrain show we've talked about a hundred times, right? These there should just be formal terrain rules for the basic types Which is like a thing that completely blocks line of sight Right a thing that is impassable a thing that is garrisonable and a thing that is cover Yeah, you think that that would be easy enough at this point right Like that's that's got to be the answer here, right? Uh, so So let's just do that then I guess I mean, are we going to just do that? I I feel like that's just the answer Which is there are four basic key keyword type things functions to terrain terrain gets assigned either impassable You can't land on it can't move on it can't do anything with it garrisonable where it's impassable unless you get inside it right Uh line of sight blocking right and Uh So where it's you know, you can move through it But it blocks line of sight if you go through more than x amount of space of it or something And It provides cover plus one is yeah Yeah, that seems that's fine right forward. Yeah, okay Like I think that covers the bases I mean we can by the way you can still like mystic terrain rules and stuff like that on top of it I'm fine with all those things Train can be wonderful and magical and wild and crazy. It's the it's the mortal realms I see no reason why we can't layer that stuff on there as well if you want But it feels like this is sort of the baseline like right these are describing two different things I'm describing the physical thing and how it exists in the world Right how it interacts with other physical objects You know those rules like arcane and damned that's that's describing some ephemeral concept of It's you know place on the game table Right not how it interacts with physical objects in the world Like a building could be mystical a building could be Damned a building could be haunted a building could be whatever. I'm fine, but it's still a building I can't just walk through the wall Right no matter how mystical it is Yeah, okay So I to me that just feels like I think this just feels like the bit the most basic slam dunk So I would just like to see it in there and again, that's not even a page of text Uh It's a pay it's a full page with a picture Sure sure Showing kind of like what this would mean That's it Uh Well, that's it. Don't worry hammer down. Like I said, you still got those silly mystical terrain rules. Those are still over there Yes, exactly. You can sell two dice sets There you go. That's exactly right. You can both mark it as impassable and a mystical. Hey, hey, see I'm as so so many opportunities Stonks profits money synergy Did I sell you? All right. There we go um I agree. Hey, well monstrous smash terrain should remove the terrain from the table. I won't be taking questions at this time agreed Like I got no issues with that It sounds like it's boy. Oh boy. Does does smash to rubble not actually do anything? Uh, isn't that a shame? Yeah, we added that thing in and then just made it do nothing Nope Uh Seems like you know seems like a mess. That's all I'm saying. Yeah so Uh, there we go. That's it. Tom. Is there anything else on your personal 4.0 Wish list anything else that you're looking at going? Oh, geez. I sure hope this happens Get rid of battle tactics. It's sure In their carnation, I know I'm going to say it again because it's important Okay, okay. It needs to go All right That's fine. I mean if I was going to repeat one it would be to go back to the beginning and say Skaven a relaunch win I think that would be great Uh, hey, woe is advocating for the removal of miscast Tom, you want to see the removal of miscast? No, we could we could you could do this in multiple ways Okay, miscast could be If you roll snake ease it always fails no matter what your bonuses are Right, it doesn't need to do the extra mortal wounds or stop you from casting additional spells It could just be a critical failure always stops spell casting Right, yeah, hey, woe Hey, woe have I have I reached across the aisle to you on that one, sir with a critical cast failure Um to where they don't it's not there's no mortal wounds involved It doesn't stop future casting it just it can't go off So even if you accumulate super bonuses because I hate when casters make magic auto cast that does bother me Yeah Yeah agreed Like I hate when people are like, oh, I rolled snakes. That's six Still casts. I'm like, oh cool, then why are we rolling dice? Yeah, right So, uh, you know, I just I like there being some chance of failure um CW says I'd rewrite the entire magic system with tom would probably hate it I say we go back to carts fourth edition style. Let's do this Okay, sounds terrible Uh Absolutely. All right, well folks, there we go Uh I yeah, I just don't like auto anything for the most part. I like when there's some chance of failure I think some chance of failure is just generally interesting in a rng game. So yeah, how about that? Uh, hey, what other ideas do you have? What do you hope they they they put in there? Uh for all the the I assume Gw staffs time to kick off your morning. I hope you all enjoyed this Two-hour break. I every thursday morning. I assume we all just huddle around. So thank you all for watching. I appreciate it For all of you out there. Thank you so much for watching uh So I really appreciate it. Don't forget to hit like subscribe. Hey, guess what? June 2nd everybody if you stay till the end you get a little you get a little announcement June 2nd next friday Snarling Badger studios, which is uncle adam's Uh game company myself and uncle adam our new game will be launching Uh, so we're going to be talking about it Uh in the week before we I welcome your your guesses as to what exactly a new game's about We're very excited, but it'll be launching on june 2nd If you're coming to tmx on the 3rd and 4th up in oshkosh, wisconsin That'll be your first chance to play it live. We'll have the books there for people We'll be running some demo games and stuff like that. It's going to be a fun time But get I I hope people get hype for that. We're really excited about this game. I think this is going to be a lot of fun Um, we have so many plans for this and for the future Um, it's been for both this game and games for years to come. It's incredible fun So we're gonna we're gonna keep doing this. I hope you all keep giving our games a chance So check that out June 2nd. Follow me at warhammer weekly. It's up there It's right up there Uh, if you want to see some spoiler type teasers over the next week But thank you all for watching hit like hit subscribe do those things support the channel Uh, as always Thank you so much for watching And we'll see you next wednesday