 Okay, good morning everyone. Welcome to our class today. We see 310 on church and ministry administration. Let's take a moment to pray and then we will get started. I request somebody to pray. Thank you, Jesus. At this time of the month, I'm going to talk about the church and the administration. We'd end up with the students and the teachers of the soul. So this is the way we guide ourselves. But because of all of us, I'm here with you and I'm here with you, to work together, to learn and to help us to improve our qualities, that is for me. When you go home, you've got so many teachers as well. Amen, amen. Alright, thank you. Thank you everyone. So last week, last few lectures, we were talking about church staff. How do we take care of the church staff? Today, we're going to go to the next lesson, which is volunteer management. How do we work? How do we properly engage with volunteers? So let me share the PDF and we'll get started. Volunteer management lesson number 8, how do we work with volunteers? Now, when we look at it from the scriptural standpoint, Romans chapter 12 verses 4 through 8, the scripture is teaching us, Romans 12, 1 Peter 4 Ephesians chapter 4 or 7, 11 and 12, that God has given different gifts, different graces to His people, which means that church congregation, essentially every believer has some grace, some gift, every believer. So when you look at the church congregation, if you have 100 people, 100 people should be serving. Of course nowadays, maybe 30% will be serving, 70% are just coming and going. But if you look at it, actually something is there, each one of them, all the 100 people in the congregation actually have something they can do. They have some grace. In some area they can serve God and Romans 12 says, we are all part of the body and each one God has given grace. And 1 Peter 4, 10, 11 tells us that as each one has received the grace, they must use it to serve others. So from a church perspective, our motivation must be, we want to get everybody involved. We want to give everybody some opportunity in some place. Not everybody can of course be on the stage and preach, but we should create as many opportunities as possible for every person to serve. And this is where volunteers comes in. As we encourage people in the congregation to serve, they want to serve as volunteers. Not all of them are going to leave their jobs or leave what they're doing and join the church staff. They will have their jobs, they will do what they're doing during the week, but they will give some amount of time. Maybe four hours, five hours, some people will give one day. They may give their skills, they may give their energy, they give their time in order to serve God. And so as a church, we need to create opportunity for people to serve. We can't force everybody to serve, but some people will come on their own and say, I want to do something. I have this skill, I have so much time. How can I serve in the church? How can I serve in the church or even outside, but in the ministry? So this is where we should enable this and facilitate this to happen and this is where volunteers come in. So what we need to think about is how do we invite and engage volunteers? So that's important, right? How do we invite people and how do we engage them as volunteers? People should know that we are encouraging them, we're inviting them. They shouldn't think that, huh, Pastor doesn't want me to do anything. He just wants me to sit here. No, no, actually the other opposite is true. We want you to come and do something, right? Find something that where you can contribute as a volunteer. So that is our motivation, but they should understand that that's where we are coming from. They may not say, just sit and go. Please, whatever way you can do something. It may be on a Sunday or it may be some other day of the week when there is some work to be done. So we need to think about how can we invite them and how can we engage them? So even if somebody wants to volunteer, of course we have to guide them. We have to oversee them. We have to manage them, things like that. So there is, if we invite them to do work, it means more work for us also to oversee them and guide them. But we have to engage them correctly. And to what extent should volunteers serve? Because we can't just give them the responsibility because they may not have full time to handle it completely. They may have time to do a little bit of it. They may have time to serve in a certain capacity. So we can't just say, just do the whole thing, right? So we have to think through on to what extent can we involve volunteers in the church or in the Christian organization. And then how do we need to change? How can the church or the Christian organization, how can we structure ourselves and adapt the ministries and programs so that there is space for these volunteers to participate so that volunteers can be a part of it. So this is something we need to think about. Now, one of the things that, let me say this, one of the biggest difficulties is in how the church staff and the volunteers work together. That is an area that needs a lot of attention because otherwise there can be a lot of conflict between church staff and volunteers because they are not doing the job, they are not coming, they are not doing. Volunteers say, you are getting paid, I am not getting paid. You must be doing it, why are you making me do it? So those kinds of things could happen. I am not saying that always happens but it could happen and they need to manage that and make sure that the volunteers look at church staff with respect. This particular church staff, he is full time with the church, he is working for the church. He could be like the volunteer, working in a corporate office or doing something, earning lots of money but these people who are church staff, they have made a decision, they will give up those other opportunities and come and be part of the church staff and that means they are dedicating all their time and their skills in order to do the ministry. So we have to respect them. So volunteers must look at church staff like that. We have to give them that mindset. Here the church staff are people who have sacrificed other opportunities in order to come and work so that they can come and dedicate themselves for the ministry. They have made a sacrifice so volunteers will respect the church staff. Then the church staff must also respect the volunteers because volunteers are busy, they have their own responsibilities. They are working for some organizations, they have families, they have full time responsibility outside but in spite of that they are willing to come and give their time and effort to do the ministry. So if both sides, if there is mutual respect, then they will be able to work together. We respect each other. Each one has their own position and we can work together and balance it. So one of the things we must do in order to make this happen is involve the church staff in deciding and determining how to engage the volunteers. Let the church staff decide. You decide how you want to involve the volunteers. So in different areas of ministry where there are full time staff, you say, okay, see you engage the volunteers but you decide what work you want to give them. What portion of the work can be done by a volunteer that you decide because the rest of the work you have to do. So we let them let the church staff decide for their own areas of ministry to decide. So for example, that's how we work. Example, catalyst. Catalyst ministry, they're going to the school. We have paid staff, but we have also more volunteers. I don't know what the number is about five or six people. I think it is now. So if the team has seven people who are staff, five are volunteers. So there are more volunteers. And that's how catalyst ministry is running right now. Of course, we are open to having more staff but staff means they have to work full time or they are committed. You're going to be working Monday to Friday. Volunteers will say, okay, I can give you one day in a week. I will do the work. Or I can give half a day. So that gives, okay, they can volunteer for that. So I let example, Pastor Celina is leading them. So I say, okay, you decide how you want to run it. If you want to hire five staff, you can hire five staff. That is up to you. The goal is we must go and serve the students in the schools. That is the goal. That is the ministry. How do you want to run it? Full time staff or volunteers, you decide. You leads. So she will decide, you know, whatever if there are more volunteers and she's okay, I don't need full time staff. If there are less volunteers, then you need more staff. And that all that, let them decide. Let the church staff decide. Whoever is responsible for that ministry. So like that, in different areas of ministry, there is a combination of church staff and volunteers or working together. The person in charge of that ministry, we let them decide how they are going to, you know, do their ministry with the mix of staff and volunteers. So that they feel like, okay, this is how it can run best. And they know what they can delegate to volunteers, what they need staff to handle. Now, what are some of the benefits of volunteer engagement? Like, you know, if you have more volunteers from the church or the ministry, you know, obviously there are lots of benefits. One is congregation feel, they feel part of the church ministry. You know, they're not like, oh, we're just spectators. We just come on Sunday, sit for two hours and go away. You know, this is our church. You know, we, this is our church, I'm volunteering. I feel part of this ministry, which is true that those things will not happen unless these volunteers come and do their part. So it makes the community that sense of belonging is there. Secondly, it gives people the opportunity to exercise and nurture their spiritual gifts. So that is what we said when we began, you know, that God has given everybody, every believer, God has given gifts and graces. When we let them participate, then it's actually they're giving, being given the opportunity to exercise and nurture spiritual gifts. They can pray for people, whatever, you know, whatever they can do, you know, teaching children's church or the youth or the teens or different areas. They can exercise their gifts. They can serve and the local church is able to function as a body. That means every person, every part of the body is doing something. You know, it's not, no, no body is, no part of the body is lying idle. And it also is an opportunity to turn, put all the learning and equipping, put it into practice. So you can listen to the sermon, listen to them and switch. But now, come on, do something with us, you know. So when we give them the opportunity to serve, we're actually telling them and giving them the opportunity to practice the things that they're being taught from the word of God. Of course, then it also helps us have more people to do the work, a larger workforce to sort of speak. That means there are more people who can carry the load. It doesn't become burdensome on just a few. And we have the benefit that there is no financial expense for volunteers. So volunteers are really giving them time and things. So the financial expense on the church also or church or ministry is also less. So these are some of the benefits. So the church really stands to benefit from having volunteers participating. But at the same time, we must understand that our limitations are not, everything can be done by volunteers. So, for example, volunteers are available only for small periods of time. So they can give maybe a few hours on a Sunday. That's the only time they have. That means the work that we give them to do should fit into that. I was like, okay, you come, you be a greeter for one hour. Be a greeter, be a usher. You attend, take care of the parking lot, whatever. For that amount of time, they can do their work. But we also need church staff. One day to Friday, we'll be taking care of all the other things that require full-time attention. So volunteers are there. Sometimes volunteers may have other priorities. So imagine somebody who's working. Okay, he starts volunteering. Suddenly his office says, hey, you need to go for six months. You need to go and work on site in the US. So he'll say, hey, next six months, I'm not here. So, okay, you can't sit down. His job is there. So he may be workplace demands, work-related travel, those things. So obviously those become, those are of higher priority. Another thing is that when working in the church, volunteers need to transition from corporate culture to church culture. That's also important. In corporate culture, when you say something, hey, your junior has to do it. You're the boss. They have to do it. In church culture, it's slightly different. You have to be patient. You work a little bit more gently, things like that. So they need to move from corporate culture to church culture. In corporate culture, it's like, hey, if you're the team leader, everybody listens to you. Here in the church, the team leader, you are going to serve. You're a servant. So that shift needs to be made. And so knowing how to behave in the workplace and in the church, they need to make that change. And in some cases, volunteers may overcome it and under deliver. They'll say, yes for everything. But then when you actually see, practically they cannot fulfill it. So they may not come to certain things and they overcome it and under deliver. Out of zeal, they may be very zealous. They want to do something for God. So they commit to everything and they take on a lot of commitment. But then when it comes on practically, they're not able to fulfill those commitments. So then it becomes a problem for us on how to manage things and so on. So these are some of the challenges that we face with volunteer engagement. Now, the way we work and I think in many churches and Christian churches and organizations, they will have volunteer teams to handle different things. So that's how we also work. That means there are many areas of ministry where we have identified. We said we can involve volunteers here, example in worship ministry. Our worship team, I don't know what the number of people are right now, maybe between 40 to 60 people, I don't know what the exact number is. But that's the team. Only a few of them are full-time staff, like the two, three, four, what a worship pastor is. The rest are all volunteers, sort of, let's say about 50 people, maybe five people or less are actually staff. The remaining 45 in the worship team are all volunteers. So it is okay because commitment is Sunday and not every Sunday, but certain Sundays in the month, whatever you, the person is comfortable. I can do two Sundays a month, that's okay. Some people may do three or some people may do one. Whatever you're committed, you can, you tell us. That Sunday you have to come prepared to do your part. You're going to play drums, you're going to play keyboard, you're going to play the guitar, whatever, you come prepared to do your part. So that means that is the level of the commitment. So that we can engage, but of course they have to practice and come. And they just can't come without practicing. So they're practicing also. They are committed to doing that. That means so much time they have to give to practice and then come. So things are so example, you think about people who handle camera. So we can have volunteers there where they can come and only on Sunday morning you hand me the camera, but video editing. That requires a lot of work that happens during Monday to Friday. So for that, you need full time, somebody full time, you know, who will be available during the week. They'll edit the sermon videos, they'll create, you know, short video segments. There's that different things are happening, creating the graphics and all that. So that requires more work, more time, more commitment. So for that we have full time stuff. But if it's just something that, you know, that needs a couple of hours on a Sunday, those are kinds of things that we can give to volunteers. So we need to understand, okay, what can be done by volunteers, what needs dedicated full time stuff. And then we establish reasonable expectations. That means what we want them to do is, you know, asking them to do something they cannot do, you know, that you give so much time, you give so much commitment and so on. And so they're able to work together. So we look on page 39, I've just listed out different teams, volunteer teams, where volunteers are actually serving at ABC. During a Sunday morning church service. Of course, you know, we have volunteers who are serving as greeters, parking lot guides, some of them will stand and guide the traffic, security assistance, information desk, registration desk, welcome lounge, connecting that is connecting with people, book table, ushers, office recounting, media presentation, stage decor which happens on certain occasions, sound and setup or live streaming, live stream moderators, online prayer, we used to do it, we don't do it now. Announcements sometimes, worship team, people are serving there, some people also minister to the world, print and other teams that we put together. So there are a lot of opportunities, even on a Sunday service, different areas that people can volunteer. Also in the ministry work that happens, like we said, worship, all the live groups are led by volunteers. Volunteers are serving in the youth ministry, Christian professionals, men's, women's, prayer teams, member care, performing arts, publications, catalysts, college outreach, campus elevates, campus groups, events, admissions, camps and conferences, special projects, so many ministry areas, volunteers are serving. So along, in many of these areas, they are serving along with church staff, they have to work with church staff, but these are all areas where volunteers are involved. So they feel very much a part of the whole ministry, what's happening and we are able to work together. Now, I've explained this earlier, the hub and spoke model. Let's quickly go through the bottom of page 39. So basically we have pastors and ministry leaders who are heading up various ministries, most of these people are full-time with church. We have the gray area that represents the church staff, people are working full-time for the church. And then the red area is representing all the volunteers, lots of volunteers. So taking this whole pool of people, we form many teams. All listed there on Sunday service and other ministries, they're all teams. But in each ministry area, there are teams, groups of people, which is a mix of volunteers, church staff and the pastors. So in every ministry area, almost like I said, the team is comprised of volunteers, church staff, pastors, they're all working together. So that's how all these ministry areas are functioning. So it's easy to start up a new ministry area. Just find some, the pastor is going to be leading that. Some church staff who need to back them up, volunteers, ready to go. So that's how we start up even new ministry areas that can be done. So now what I want to do is kind of get into some of the details on how we manage volunteers, how we work with volunteers at ABC, some of the lessons we've learned and so on. So volunteer recruitment, that means getting people to volunteer is a big thing. So what we do is every Sunday, every Sunday. So we want to make it, let me put it like this. We want to let people sign up anytime. We can't say, hey, you come only in January, the month of January and sign up. Then they have to wait 12 months to sign up. It's not practical. Anytime somebody wants to volunteer, they can sign up. So what we've done is we have created a web page on our website for volunteers. They can just go there and all these areas of ministry are listed. They can just check where they want to submit and immediately their name, what they've signed up for comes to us. And then we can reach out to them, say, thank you. We tell them, hey, just reach out to them. I'll talk to them. Thank you so much for signing up. Get a little understanding of their background. And then if it's a simple area, we can start them off immediately. If they need some training, like if it's example audio, video, those things require a little bit of training, then it's okay. You come for next three Sundays, you come, be trained, learn how to do it. Then you can start engaging. So those kinds of things, depending on what the area is. But the point is, every Sunday we announce, there's a little slide that comes in the announcement. Sign up to be a volunteer. That means we are open to this anytime. Anybody can come and we are constantly reminding people, hey, sign up, sign up, sign up. And then in addition to that, we remind people about these opportunities. And on different occasions, we might intentionally remind them that, hey, there are these opportunities that you can sign up. And so we provide these opportunities for all of us to participate. Now, I've just mentioned here on page 29 of page 30, sorry, why some churches, ministries hesitate to enlist volunteers. You know, sometimes churches mention this, oh, are you sure? Should we have them involved? Things like that. And they hesitate. Why? Sometimes they feel threatened by the skills and competencies of volunteers. Obviously, these volunteers, people in the congregation, they may be more skilled. They may be professionally much better because they are working in the industry. So, hey, if they come, they will tell me what I should be doing. Because they may know much better than me and know more than me and all that. So they feel threatened, the church staff of the pastors. Or sometimes they may say volunteers are not as spiritual as us. They don't pray as much as us. Why we should engage them in the ministry? Or sometimes they may feel that, you know, if we engage volunteers, they will take us in the wrong direction. They'll pull us in some other direction. So these are all fears. But I think we need to let go of these fears and we need to know how to manage things properly. So what if somebody knows more than me or has better skills than me? It's a good thing. We can all benefit from their skills. The thing is, I must let go of my fear and I must know how to engage them well. I should relate to them and say thank you so much for coming and sharing and discuss them with them, learn from their skills and so on. So if I let go of my fear, never can manage this whole thing well. It will be good for them and it will be good for the church. So we should not be threatened. And yeah, they may not have as much time as us here to spend in prayer in the world. But with them engaging with us, they will become stronger spiritually. So it's actually a win-win. So they win, we win, this is a better thing. And they don't have to pull us in the wrong direction. We can listen to their ideas and then prayerfully say, this is the way we want to go as a church. So we don't have to be afraid that volunteers will take us in the wrong direction. So we need to welcome them and they're not feel threatened to engage with them. The next thing is like I was saying, volunteers, we need to make these opportunities known. And one of the things we realized is the most effective way for volunteer recruitment is personal contact. What I've noticed is that you announce from the video, nobody will move. But if you go and say, hey, you know, John, can you please help? Immediately, so I've been waiting for you to ask. I've been waiting for you to ask me to do something. So like I'm thinking every Sunday I'm asking you, their announcement is coming. But they don't feel that as a personal invitation. This one announcement is going to everybody. But when you personally say, hey, can you do this? They feel so happy. So that is something we've learned, right? If you want to get more volunteer, you have to go and personally ask. Can you please help in this area? Of course, you have to ask them for the right place. So most of them are when we approach them personally, they won't say no. And they will most often they will say, yes, I've been waiting to do something. I've been waiting to see how to serve God. So personal contact or somebody invites somebody. Like somebody in church asks someone and say, come and help. That's that either the pastor goes or somebody else. Come and help. That is the best way to bring people in as volunteers. So what we always do and all our pastors, you know, even in the first time visitors and so on, where they make calls, we ask people, you know, would you like to volunteer? Would you like to sell? Of course, if some people say, you know, I need more time or that's okay. Or they may be going through a very busy season in life. They say, okay, I'm very busy, but maybe after a few months I think about, okay, that's right. We can't force them. But we ask, we keep asking. It's because that's the best way to get them to be involved by personal contact. Then other things like I mentioned, every Sunday there's an announcement that goes up. So some people might see it and then, you know, sign up and we have special volunteer drives on certain Sundays, which is okay. We will, you know, intensely get people to highlight the areas that people can volunteer and get them to sign up. Or we also, time to time, tell people to share their testimonies. How have they benefited from being volunteers in the church? You know, so we get them to share their testimony. And then that encourages others to sign up. So enlisting volunteers, the sign up process is very simple. We have a simple sign up form online so anyone can sign up anytime. It's very simple. And then we want to immediately respond. So like if a volunteer signs up and we don't respond within one few days, they'll think we are not interested. Oh, I signed up. Church didn't give me any opportunity to help. So when they sign up, the message goes to our events coordinator. And immediately his response when he's immediately called them and say, hey, you know, talk to them, find out what they want to do and get them involved, get them to start serving. Some other things we found useful is to have clearly, clearly written down description of what they need to do. So we put everything in a written form for every ministry area. People are serving them. They can read their volunteer guidelines and they'll understand, okay, this is what I'm expected to do. So we have it written down. So that way there is no confusion. And we also train them wherever there's need for training. We communicate our policies, our guidelines, and to whom they should report to and how they should be accountable. So these are things that we cover as soon as they sign up to serve in a certain area. So they can actually start serving. These are things we tell them. That means there's no confusion. You have to come at this time. You have to do this. This is what you must do. This is who you report to. This is what is expected. So otherwise they may say, yes, I'm coming. So I don't know what time I was supposed to come. You have to be here at this time because those things have to be taken care of. Those things have to be handled. One more thought and then we'll go for a break. Volunteer demographics, the stage 31. You know, when we are engaging volunteers, it's also actually an opportunity for us as a church to build bridges across ages and even across the mix of people. So what happens in many churches is older people, they will talk to themselves. Younger people will talk to themselves. Teenagers, they'll be by themselves. So what you have, you have groups within the church. Older people, teenagers. And so how are you going to get them to mix with each other? Because there is a benefit. You know, the younger people, if they work with the older people, they can learn something. And the older people can also learn something from the younger people. They can benefit from each other's thing. But if you just leave them like that, they'll all be their own groups. The same thing if there are people from different regions. For example, people from the north or they all seem to stay together. People from the south, they all seem to stay together. I'm not saying always, but generally it's like that. So how do you mix them up together so that they can be a good interaction? So volunteering is a good opportunity to do that. So you put little older people, younger people, teenagers, put them all together in the same team so that they work together. Same thing with people from different cultures. Put them all in the same team. You all work together. So volunteering in church actually becomes an opportunity to bring people across ages and across cultures to bring them closer to each other. It's a great opportunity. If you put them in the same teams and let them work together across ages, then they'll all happily learn from each other. So we intentionally try to create teams. Now of course it cannot happen in every way, every area, but in many areas you can do that. For example, in children's church, we have little older people, little younger people, they're all serving together. So they have to talk to each other. They have to interact and they have to learn from each other. They have to adapt to each other's way of thinking. We should believe to some extent that some older people, younger people, they are working together. So it's a good mix. It's a good healthy thing to do, to have these people work together. And it's a great opportunity for learning to happen, mentoring to happen. All the people can care for the younger people and so on. So it's a great advantage and we need to recognize that and make use of that in the whole volunteering. Any questions so far? Let me see online. Any questions around following? Yeah, definitely a question. So I just want to ask about, so I come from, I've never seen volunteers this much as I have seen in APC. So it was a shock to me to see the church people volunteering and then they are the church and they are the one who is working. So it was so different for me. So how do we actually implement in a place where they have never been a volunteer? I have seen churches where actually they don't trust each other to give a position to someone they don't trust. So mostly people in authority or the pastor, they are the one who takes care of everything that happens in the church. As far as I have seen in many churches. So how do we implement it over in those places? Do we have to preach about it? Or I just want to know how do we start up? Like there should be volunteers in church. The idea of volunteers itself, I have I haven't seen in some churches in Tamil Nadu. So how do you actually give that encouragement? Yeah, very good question. And so I think the first step is that the mindset of the leaders, the pastor should change. The pastors should actually see that this is God's will. So it's not just in about whether the church will benefit or not. This is God's plan. That is why God has given gifts and graces to everybody. It is not given gifts and graces only to the pastor. The Bible says like we started up with the scriptures in Romans 12, 1 Peter 4, Ephesians 4, 7. God has given gifts and graces to every person, different gifts and graces. So therefore, it now becomes the pastor's responsibility, the leadership responsibility to actually give them the opportunity to use those gifts. Otherwise, what God has put in them is going wasted. It's not being utilized for the purpose of God. So by not giving opportunity, we are actually disregarding God's gift and grace in the lives of all those people. So first thing I would say is the mindset of the leaders, the pastor should change. That they need to realize that this is actually something I have to do, I have to do to honor God. Then of course, the mindset of the people also need to change. The mindset of the people in many cases is, oh, I just have to come and attend church and go away. I don't have anything to contribute. So people also need to know, no, no, no, actually God has put something in you. God has given you certain gifts and graces. Now you need to discover it. You need to use it to serve God and serve people. So even the thought process or thinking of the people must change. And that thinking happens through the preaching of the Word. Through the preaching of the Word, we bring up these scriptures and say, hey, God has given all of us gifts and graces. God has given all of you gifts and graces and you need to start using it in whatever way you can. And you are a minister. So like at APC, we say every believer is a minister. That means you can do something to serve God. When we say minister doesn't mean you have to become a reverend or bishop or something. Minister simply means serve. So everyone can serve. So that's how we change the mindset. So once the understanding is shifted or changed, then we have to think of the practical ways, how to go about it. Simple thing is form teams. Don't make it too difficult. Don't make it too hard and they won't serve. Keep the entry barrier very simple. You want to serve as an Asha? All you have to do is come at this time. Stand here and do this. Keep it very simple. You want to serve as a greater? Very simple. You have to come at this time, be here, smile and shake hands and welcome people to the church. So try to keep things very simple. And of course, in certain areas, they need a little bit more work. Like if you're going to serve in children's church or teams or youth, there you have to come prepared. The lesson that you're going to teach and all those things, of course. But make it easy for them to come and volunteer itself. So slowly you build that culture over time. And then you'll have a very healthy congregation. That's a great question. You're the same. I'm a literature student. Dearly church, cheers. Remember how many people, each of you remembers? Correct. As we go, we're going to be faster than the people. Right. So in all of them, some of the churches of the pastor that are going to stay, they want to bring their own family and lead to that particular church. And all of us have neglected it. All of the people are there. That's the main reason for the church. They're not faster than the pastor. Yes, you told the freedom of the followers. People are more talented than the pastor. That is the real challenge for the pastor. But as you told me, you have to change the movements. Because we are here to serve our community. The one of the main reasons was violence. There's a lot of people in this world that are different from each other. They're almost educated and they have been put to bed. And they're worried about whether the church is not matched to bring them into the community. They have to judge people in the community. Right. The concept. So we have been able to provide them with a better understanding. Right. Right. I suppose we have to change this mindset. Yeah. Think about it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so what Pastor John said, you know, you know what sharing here in the classroom was that he's sharing his observation that the mindset of the leaders needed change to engage people in the congregation. Typically it's the leader thinks about just themselves rather than the whole congregation also feels threatened that people in the congregation may be more skilled than themselves. So that's why they don't tend to engage people. Yeah, so for the benefit of online students. Okay, let's go for a break. We'll go for a 10 minute break and we'll be back in 10 minutes and continue our class. Thank you.