 Welcome to Meet the Experts, where we explore international trade and market issues with leading fisheries professionals. I'm your host, Joe Zalazmi. Today we're joined by Nicole Frans, the Sustainable Livelihoods Team Lead in the FAO Fisheries and Aquaculture Division. Nicole, it's great to have you with us. How are you doing today? Very well. Thank you. Nice to be with you. Excellent. Well, let's jump right in. So today we're here to talk about small-scale fisheries. And so, Nicole, can you tell us why are small-scale fisheries so important and what are they exactly? Well, well, now there exactly is a million-dollar question because there is no universal definition of small-scale fisheries and they cannot be, given the high degree of diversity of the sector. Just picture, for example, a Norwegian coastal fisher in a motorized vessel. But then think of a woman gleaning mollusks in Kenya or selling smoked fish in a local market. Both represent small-scale fisheries arguably, but both in a very different way. Said that, however, there are sufficient shared characteristics to justify discussing small-scale fisheries at the global level. And small-scale fisheries, in fact, is increasingly being recognized, especially in developing countries, for their contribution to sustainable food systems and to sustainable development more broadly, including in their contribution to livelihoods. For example, it is estimated that over 90 percent of all of those that are operating in capture fisheries are in small-scale fisheries. And the vast majority of these people are living in developing countries. It is estimated that about half of these people are women. And the women are primarily engaged in post-harvest activities, especially in marketing and processing. But they're also active in harvesting activities, often that is overlooked. Said that, there's an increasing interest in finding ways to objectively characterize fisheries as large or small-scale fisheries. This is for a variety of reasons, which can spend the dimensions of governance, of economics, for example, in relation to taxation, to subsidies, to special preferences in relation to trade regimes, but also in relation to fisheries management and related regulations. So the issue of defining or characterizing small-scale fisheries is also made more difficult by the use of many terms. So we talk about small-scale fisheries here, but the sectors often refer to also as artisanal fisheries, as subsistence fisheries, or original fisheries, indigenous fisheries, coastal fisheries, near-shore fisheries. So there are many ways to term this sector, which makes it more difficult. And on the other hand, you have what is termed large-scale fishery sector. And the large-scale fishery sector is sometimes also called commercial, semi-industrial or industrial. So there's a lot of terminology that does not have agreed definitions. So in some countries, you may even have that fisheries are defined in more than these two categories, and there are also some of the intermediate categories. So you can see that it's very complex to come up with a concrete definition of what small-scale fisheries are. In some cases, definitions have been used that identify fisheries based on the number of characteristics. But those can be limiting, because sometimes they only refer to the vessel size, to the engine power, to the gear type, to the type of operations. But again, it's not that clear-cut. It's not that black and white. So the narrow characterization can tend to exclude some fishes. It should be rightfully considered small-scale, for example. For example, food fishes can often fall off these characterizations, those that are not using any vessel or that are not using any type of support to fish. So they are losing out, and they will not be categorized, and they will fall through the cracks when they are, for example, data collection efforts to understand how many people defend on small-scale fisheries. So despite all of these challenges, characterizing the scale of fishing units is often helpful and also necessary to support evidence-based decision-making policies and fisheries management, related research and governance at the national level, at the local level, but also at the regional level. And it is also important to understand the global role of small-scale fisheries. So what is really needed is better methods to assess the scale without falling into the trap of these narrow definitions. And there are some attempts now happening to find ways to characterize the sector more, taking into account not only the aspects, like we said before, in relation to the size of the vessel, the length of the vessel, the engine, but also how, for example, a harvest operation is connected to the market. Is it servicing an export market? Or is it for domestic consumption? How many people are on the boat? What is the ownership structure of the fishing unit? So all of this is something to help identify the characteristics of a fisheries. And it's almost moving away from this datatomy between small-scale and large-scale and looking at fisheries as a continuum to understand at the national level, for example, how the national fishery sector looks and how it needs to be supported based on those characteristics and specificities. Thanks, Nicole. That's all really interesting. And I think important to reiterate, 90% of people involved in capture fisheries globally involved in what can be considered small-scale fisheries in spite of everything you said about not having a narrow definition. But again, very interesting, some of the work ongoing to categorize and better define for policy purposes the scale, quote, unquote, of a given fishery unit. So next question I wanted to ask you is that, you know, I think something a lot of people think about when they hear small-scale fisheries is fishing for subsistence. And you even mentioned that as sort of an alternative term for small-scale fisheries. But I was wondering, does small-scale fisheries production also enter into trade and commerce? Well, currently international trade statistics do not indicate whether a fish product is coming from large-scale fishery, from small-scale fishery, or from aquaculture. So there's no way to distinguish that origin through the international trade data that is available. But we do know, of course, from evidence from other sources that small-scale fisheries actors engage in trade at all levels, at the global level, at the regional level, and at the domestic level. The degree of that engagement varies by country, by region, by product also. So just to give you an concrete example, for the participation of small-scale fisheries in high-value global value chains, we can think of the Nile Perch from Lake Victoria. So this is fished by very small vessels, by very small boats. So it is, de facto, small-scale fishing operation at the lake level. But then it enters the value chain and the processing, and ultimately it is targeting high-value markets, primarily in Europe. So there is a very tight connection between the small-scale fishery in Lake Victoria and the export markets. Similarly, lobster from Mexico, for example. It's also fished in a very traditional way. It's coming from small-scale fisheries, but it's a high-value product that is entering primarily the American, the US American market, for example. In terms of low-value products, we can also see that they're entering important regional markets, for example. Dried fish, again from the great African lakes, for example, are staple food throughout African regions, and they provide highly nutritious food for large, large part of the population, in particular the most vulnerable. So that's a highly traded fish. In that case, it's high quantities, high volumes of low-value fish, but it makes a huge difference in terms of providing the nutritional benefits to those poorer parts of the population. So what is generally recognized in relation to market access and trade for small-scale fisheries actors is that they, however, face many challenges in securing fair market access and the fair distribution of the resulting benefits from that trade. So the global community has recognized that and has committed to addressing this by formulating and agreeing on one of the sustainable development goal targets, and that is target SDG-14B, which calls specifically to provide access for small-scale artisanal fisheries, fishers to marine resources, but also to markets. Well, okay, so given the diversity of small-scale fisheries and the fact that their products are often traded and enter into commerce, but may vary in terms of which markets they're headed to based on the value and the geographic location of where that fisheries product is produced, I'm curious to know if there's an international consensus on how to approach improving small-scale fisheries to overcome some of those challenges you mentioned, including securing market access and fair distribution of benefits. Given that there's this overarching global goal SDG-14B, is there some guidance that sort of helps inform the global community on how collectively we can move toward overcoming those challenges? Yes, yes, there is that guidance. In 2014, the FAO Committee on Fisheries, in which all the FAO member states come together, together with other partners and actors observers from regional organizations, from civil society, from NGOs, from research, they all came together in the session of the Committee on Fisheries and they endorsed an international instrument that is entirely dedicated to small-scale fisheries. This instrument had the voluntary guidelines for securing sustainable small-scale fisheries in the context of food security and poverty eradication. They are the result of a really participatory development process in which the key issues for small-scale fisheries were identified by all the main stakeholders from government, but primarily from small-scale fisheries and their organizations and small-scale fisheries processes and then traders themselves. And not only the issues, but also how to address them. So these guidelines and short the small-scale fisheries guidelines are really unique in that respect as they represent this dedicated first international instrument to provide the guidance for small-scale fisheries governance and development. And importantly, these guidelines have a dedicated chapter on value chains, post-housed and trade in which the rights of fishers and fish workers are recognized to act individually and collectively to improve their livelihoods through trade at the global, regional, national level and by enhancing value chains and post-housed operations. Okay, excellent to hear that there's already been considerable thought gone into exactly how we can improve small-scale fisheries. Next, I was hoping you could talk a little bit more about the extent to which small-scale fisheries form part of trade flows at both the global, regional and national level. And also would be really interested to hear your views on what Phow and in particular Globefish can do to support a more integrated trade scenario for small-scale fisheries production. Yeah, well markets be their national, regional or global present particular opportunities and challenges for small-scale fisheries. In terms of opportunities, there is a potential to earn a higher value per unit and it is necessary to engage with actors who can facilitate access, for example, to financial resources to provide capacity building and training to develop the skills of the small-scale fisheries actors. And that really is an investment in the development of the small-scale fisheries value chains. And that is where FAO can play a role in supporting that development. Another important area where FAO and Globefish can support the participation of small-scale fisheries in international trade or regional trade at all levels is in relation to the very complex framework of rules and regulations that are governing fisheries value chains. There's a wide variety of trade policies that are implemented at the country level through tariffs, subsidies, non-tariff measures. And all of these can really significantly influence fisheries production and trade and they can really have an impact on who can access markets. So it can be very challenging to meet these regulations and these standards, especially for small-scale fisheries actors. So developing the related awareness about those rules and regulations and then the related capacity to comply with them, in particular in developing countries, is again an important area for FAO and Globefish to act. Another aspect is also in relation to the unequal power relations that often exist between different actors along the value chain, where some are more vulnerable and more disadvantaged in terms of contracts, but also for example in terms of conditions and even labor conditions that are affecting the market and the value chain. So again, training, awareness raising, capacity development, in particular of small-scale fisheries organizations who can act as a multiplier, really as a catalyst of that knowledge of those additional skills can greatly enhance that small-scale fisheries can benefit from the markets, that they can increase their literacy, their capacity to engage and participate and really also become more equal partners in the market. Okay, well it's clear that there are a number of things that have been identified as concrete interventions to really improve the capacity and ability of small-scale fishers and small-scale fishers organizations to support engagement in value chains and to be able to be more effective players and through that improve the development and livelihoods of those individuals. That's excellent. Now I want to switch gears here a little bit and talk about in particular post-harvest losses. Post-harvest losses are a significant challenge in all fisheries and in particular in small-scale fisheries. Not only do these losses result in lost income to fishers, processors and traders, but they also contribute to food insecurity and malnutrition by reducing the number of fish available for human consumption. What are some of the ways in which post-harvest losses can be reduced in small-scale fisheries in particular? Yeah, post-harvest losses are certainly a major concern and post-harvest losses in general in food systems were also a topic of the recent UN food system pre-summit. So this is certainly an area where we can collectively improve a lot. It's very difficult to have accurate assessments of post-harvest losses in small-scale fisheries also due to the often informal nature of the sector. So not all of the catch is recorded. Often many of the market transactions are informal. So we don't really have the numbers, but from the evidence that we have it is estimated that the post-harvest fish losses in small-scale fisheries are somewhere between 10 and 40% of the life-weight equivalent of the fish that is caught. So this is an enormous loss. A major source of loss in small-scale fisheries is due to poor handling. So the lack of ice, the lack of appropriate processing facilities, the lack of access to running water, all of those issues hamper the capacity to reduce these post-harvest losses. So working on increasing sustainable practices along the value chain that can help avoid those losses and the waste by combining for example traditional practices with cost-efficient methods and new technology and innovations can really change that situation. Something that can also help to reduce post-harvest losses is to invest in value addition, try to extend the shelf life of products, try to use the different parts of the products in different ways. So by using more of the fish, by reducing the losses, we then also have a beneficial effect on the fisheries management because we need to fish less because less is lost so the pressure on the system is lower. So really working on reducing post-harvest losses has a very close connection to ensuring the sustainable fisheries management. Value addition techniques can also lead to increased income and really the diversification of the range of products that are available which may also be an opportunity to tap into new markets. To achieve this, for example, these improvements in value addition, something that is also needed is proper access to financial services for small-scale fishers and fish workers obviously. So that includes access to credit, access to microfinance, to saving services. It also includes, for example, access to insurances. So providing more appropriate services for this target audience coupled with also access to more appropriate infrastructure, related training on how to use that infrastructure, how to maintain that infrastructure is really important. And something else that needs to be improved is also the entrepreneurial skills of small-scale fisheries actors because, again, by opening the scope, by increasing the exposure to what kind of product can be marketed to whom and how is something that can have an impact on the quality overall of which products are flowing along the value chain. Thank you, Nicole. That's all great. Now, can you share with us any success stories where post-harvest losses have been reduced or value addition increased as a result of changes in behavior or application of some of the techniques and interventions that you've just mentioned in small-scale fisheries? Yeah, we have some concrete examples that FAO has developed in collaboration with its partners on the ground at the country level. On one hand, they contribute to reducing post-harvest losses, but also to creating more awareness about the food quality and the food safety. One concrete example is, for example, the use of raised drying racks that have been introduced in Burundi and in many other countries. And just by putting, for example, small fish, small pelagics on a drying rack, on a raised rack, instead of drying them on the floor, on the ground, you can really massively increase the rate of return of what you're putting on your rack because when you have them on the ground, what we have seen is that in many cases, you would lose about half of your product due to the rainy season, for example, or due to contamination from other agents that are on the ground. So just by putting these simple structures that don't expose the fish and then also let the air run through it more easily, we can massively increase the product quality. Another example is the use of the FAO Tiaroya processing technique or the so-called FTT ovens, which is an improved way to smoke fish, which is now widely used in Africa. And I think it is distributed in about 17 countries, and there are now also pilot projects to adopt this technology also in four countries in the Asia Pacific region. And this technique is basically improving the quality of the final product, but it is also much more appropriate in terms of how this oven is used for the health of the women that are usually working. They're less exposed to smoke and they don't have to bend down so much. And the use of the firewood that is used for operating these ovens is also much more efficient compared to more traditional smoking techniques in the fish smoking. Well, great to hear about some of these real-world examples of how basic, cost-effective solutions can really help reduce not only reduce post-harvest losses, but also improve the working conditions for small-scale fisheries actors. Now, we're almost out of time, but before we go, I wanted to talk about the international year of artisanal fisheries and aquaculture, which was declared by the UN General Assembly for 2022, and that's next year. That's coming right up. Now, FAO has been designated the Lead Agency. What is FAO doing to prepare for IAFA, and how can our listeners get involved? Yeah, we're very excited that we have the next year dedicated to small-scale fisheries and aquaculture. So, we're in the middle of preparing for the year that will be launched on the 18th of November, and we have established already a dedicated website that is available in six languages where you can find information about the year and where you can also find what is called the Global Action Plan for the International Year. This Global Action Plan was developed by the International Steering Committee of the International Year in which we have representatives from the seven FAO regions, and we also have an important number of other partners, non-state actors that are representing either small-scale fisheries, small-scale aquaculture of those sectors, and also other partner UN agencies that are supporting the preparations of the year. So, in this Global Action Plan, we have identified seven pillars that have been found to be particularly important to be taking action on, and one of those pillars is in relation to economic sustainability, and this is obviously an area where markets, access to trade, market, fair distribution of benefits, improved post-harvest practices, a reduction of post-harvest losses we spoke about before, are coming in very strongly. And what we are working on now is, for example, the identification of good practices around the world that can be showcased and that can be shared throughout celebrations at the global level, at the regional level, at the national level next year, on how we can improve the value chain, the small-scale fisheries and aquaculture value chains around the world. So, it's really an opportunity to collectively share what we have learned and to inspire and to move forward in a more sustainable manner, and we really call on everybody who is interested to contact us. There is a contact address, email address, in our website, it's ayafa at FAO.org, so everybody can contact us there and share ideas and share thoughts. We also have an event section on our website where we invite partners to include what they are planning to celebrate the international year, and that will be a way also to reach a broader audience and to share and inspire again what can be done. It's a year that's for everybody. It's led by the FAO, but it is an opportunity for all of us to be creative and to do whatever we can to draw attention to the sector and to make it better in the future. Excellent. Well, we all look forward to the AFA 2022 and to partaking in the various activities in support of improving small-scale fisheries. Nicole, it was great speaking with you today. Thanks again for joining us and sharing your insights, and we hope to talk to you again soon. Thank you very much for having me. And to our listeners, thank you for joining Meet the Experts where we explore international trade and market issues with leading fisheries professionals. We look forward to having you with us next time when we'll continue the conversation. In the meantime, subscribe to the Globefish newsletter and get the latest information from our website at globefish.org. Goodbye for now.