 Okay, so good morning once again, welcome to BC202 Christian Madagin family. My name is Jean George and I am a counsellor by profession. I joined APC in 2004 and started with ministry in 2010-2011. I am part of the counselling centre at APC. So I work as a counsellor as well as teach the subject on Madagin family. I am married too. I have 18 years to my credit and praying that the Lord gives us a lot more wonderful years together. We have two children. I have a son who is 16 and a daughter who is 12. My son is in 11th grade and my daughter is in 7th grade. I love teaching. I am a person who loves to learn from others. So I think maybe as a disclaimer, maybe I should tell you, even though I have been teaching the subject for the last five years, I don't think we can ever master it completely. I am here with just as many mistakes or probably more than what maybe some of you have made. But by the grace and the power of God, I can stand here today and through His Spirit work alongside with each one of us as we learn together. So I am looking forward to an interactive session, questions and learning. And because there are so many of you outside of the time in, I am based in Bangalore. So the country that a few of us are in, we would love to hear the way that your perspectives, your understanding. However, when we look at the entire picture, we have one standard. We have the Bible as our standard and all that we are going to be learning is from that standard. It's not from our cultures or our upbringing or our learning, but it is from God's Word. Amen. Okay. So before we get started, just a couple of instructions that the book we are going to be following the manual of Christian Maragin family. And this is uploaded on for the online students. It's uploaded on your class work. So if you just go there and you will find the PDF of that, so you could download it and you could walk through this. You could follow through as we are learning for the e-learning students. It is there on the e-learning site on the tab of textbook. If you just download it, you will be able to find that and follow along. All right. Okay. So I think before we're going to be, you know, even as we look at anything that God has instituted for our pleasure and for our good, you know, we need to really understand it through the way that he has seen it. But before we get there, you know, I want to go one step back and really hear maybe from a few of you, you know, who just unmute yourself and just talk about what you think about how and what do you see as the expressions of marriage that you see in your world around? Okay. I'm just going to repeat that question. What do you see as the expressions of marriage, you know, in your area of influence, you know, among your community, among the people that you see, maybe your friends, maybe you're working, people that you see who have been married, what kind of expressions of marriage have you seen? So, you know, don't wait for anybody. Just go ahead, shoot. And yes, Charles, go ahead. Thank you. I am Charles Sandy. The expression that I see of marriage around me is that the character and the discipline of children is determined by the type of marriage that is at home. If the father and mom or the parents at home are okay, they are heresy in terms of marriage, the children are also going to be also heresy in terms of character and in terms of discipline. So there is a direct relationship between the children's behavior and the marriage health at home. Thank you. Absolutely. Thank you, Charles. What he said is there is a direct relation between the relationship in a couple and the way that parenting takes place. Wonderful insight. Yes. Who'd like to go next? I'll go. Yes, Charles. Yes. I remember when you said expressions of marriage, my wife and I would talk about this a lot. We observe and something probably we always notice is whenever there's a family, we sit up in church, especially with small toddlers because we have two young ones. We notice that the wife or the mother is generally has a crown. Most of the times agitated, angry, scolding, shouting at everyone, the husband gets it, the kids get it. At the father generally, the head of the family is a little, I don't know what's the word, but not so worried, like trying to be in his own world, own space, not so bothered. So typically, I look around and most families with kids, I see them in restaurants, churches, parks and the normal scenario, the wife being agitated and the father being in the face of the world. It's not the best expression, but yeah. Thank you, Sam. Okay, young, young, I mean unmarried people, don't worry, don't worry. Okay, Sam's giving you another perspective of things we probably haven't, we don't want to see in our lives, right? But yes, when there is a disconnect, it is so evident in the faces of people and that's an observation. Excellent, thank you, Sam. Yes, who else would like to go? Dinesh, yes, Dinesh, please go ahead. Kennedy, I'll get to you. I look most character in marriage, couples have to forgive each other in times of tough times and understand each other. Likewise, they have to fix the time for each other, children also balancing their personal life. They have to balance on the requirements to be a job, to avoid a job. Also, likewise, external parents also influence them. Likewise, both husband and wife, splendid individual friends, gathered out by understanding. It is more of a love between each other. I bond with my friends and later, later, please. Right, thank you Dinesh, you were meaning to say one within a marriage there needs to be a lot more qualities that are there, a forgiveness of love, of understanding, of being able to walk with each other even through thick and thin and very often that's not what we probably see in the world around that marriages break very often because of reasons, multiple reasons. Thank you, thank you Dinesh. Okay, maybe one or two people more? Yes, yes, hope, yes, hope for Kennedy. I think it's you, Kennedy, yes Kennedy, go on. Okay, Kennedy, I'm sorry I wasn't able to hear you clearly. Would you mind putting it on the chat please? That would be really helpful. Yes, Charles, do you have something to say? Thank you Kennedy. Charles, do you have something to say? No, I forgot to throw up my hand, sorry. Okay, all right. Okay, I'd like to hear from some women. We have some ladies here. Come on ladies, I'd like to hear from you. What have what have you seen as expressions of marriage around? Ladies? Yes ma'am. Yes Rupa. Expressions of marriage, we have seen very good friendship and at the same time now we observe so many relationships, not even, they're not able to see each other faces and we see a lot of hatred and all that around us, it is very sorry to see that. Yeah, thank you, thank you Rupa. Anybody else, maybe one more lady? Hi, Taisha, hi Taisha. Hi, Hi. For me what I've seen is teamwork, teamwork in terms of they work together in their job and they respect each other boundaries in their job and also they work, they can work together in their relationship but there's also a thin line when you work together as a couple but I've seen that some couple does that so well, they're a team player and they communicate well and they have each other's backs so that I've seen that expression of marriage. I think it's beautiful when you have that. Absolutely, thank you Taisha. Thank you and welcome to class, we didn't get to hear from you but welcome. Thank you. Thank you, Nisha, Nisha said you see ego, miscommunication among people you've met, absolutely. So I think all of us, been around people, been in churches, been among communities, have observed what marriages often look like. Some of us may have seen excellent examples, some of us may not have, nevertheless there is a standard that God has established, a biblical understanding of what marriage should be and what it is and the blessing that comes as a result of that understanding. So that's what we are going to be looking at. So as I post this question to you, what are the expressions of marriage? If we look at our current right now, there are very many distorted expressions of marriage and you will see that in whether there are same sex marriages, whether there are marriages, whether there are relationships that do not follow a committed ceremony, that is there are live-in relationships, there are child marriages, there are marriages that happen within, you know, maybe within incestuous relationships. So when you look at it, there are so many expressions of it and we begin to wonder, you know, where has all of the purity and the sacredness of marriage gone. But when we go back into God's word, the standard, we understand marriage from a biblical perspective. And so we're going to take off our glasses that looks at the world and we're going to put on whatever, maybe the word, the God-empowered glasses and going to begin to look at marriage. So even as I'm speaking to a lot of married people here, remember that through this course, this is not just an academic course, right? This is a course which and all of our courses that have been instituted, it's not just to learn and to get head knowledge, but to be able to imbibe in your life. Okay, so for all of us who are married and for those who are seeking marriage, we want to make a commitment that by the end of this course, we see marriages differently and we work in our marriages just as differently. Okay, so that's the that's the drive. Okay, and I think we would have achieved a great reward when we are able to do that. So I want to encourage each of you after every class, go back and think of what can I change today to interact with my spouse or maybe in my attitude or in myself, what can I do to change things so that my marriage becomes what God intended to be. Okay, so I have a thumbs up on that. Yes, I believe I do. Okay, all right, thank you. Amen, thank you, Maxin. All right, so when we look at scripture, you know, the question that we need to, you know, really be firm about is who is the one who designed marriage? Okay, so if, you know, like most of us here, so I want to speak, you know, when I'm looking at my culture in India, you know, I think my generation, probably a few generation behind me, you know, marriage was more a social institution, you know, you finish your studies, you do a bit of work, and then you are expected to get married. And marriage comes more because your parents want to force you into it. They think that, you know, you need a companion or, you know, someone to help you with your chores or help you with your self-esteem. So there are many reasons and many people who would push you into marriage think and it comes to mind that, okay, is this something that you need to socially do? But scripture completely shows us that it was God's heart. Marriage was God's heart. He is the designer of marriage. Okay, so when we look at scripture, when we look at the beginning, right at the beginning, you know, God was the one who solemnized the first marriage and all of us know, you know, it was God bought Eve to Adam, God bought Eve to Adam. So when you look at that scripture and maybe I will quickly just read out that passage of scripture, maybe next time on, you know, I don't know how many of you have the material here with you, but maybe next time on when I bring up a verse, maybe somebody could read it so, you know, we could all get connected together. So I'm just going to read a couple of verses. I'm going to start with Genesis 2 verse 18. Okay, the chapter says, God said, it's not good for the man to be alone. I'll make him a helper, a companion. Okay, and then as you go through it, you see how God formed from the dirt off the ground, everything else, okay, and he bought it to man to name all the animals. But yet when he looked at man, he felt that, you know, it is not good for the man to be alone. So all the men who are looking for bride say amen, God does not want you to be alone. And those who've got, you know, many choices say amen, God will give me one. Okay, and God puts this man to sleep and removes a rib and placed it with flesh and brings Eve. Okay, and if you look at verse 24 and 25, it says, therefore, a man leaves his father and mother and embraces his wife and they become one flesh. So you see here, God knew that there wasn't any other creature that he had created, the cattle, the donkey, the kangaroo, the rat, the dog, the cat, none of them could match man well enough. Okay, and God made something beautiful so that he could connect the man too. And we see that even, even though God saw that all that he created was good, that one thing he said was not good was for man to be alone. And that's why man needed a helper, needed a companion. Because on his own, he would have been, he would have been isolated, he would have been lonely, he would have been, you know, sad. Maybe I should ask all the singles here, you know, what are your expressions of loneliness, right? But God saw that that shouldn't be. And that's why he bought woman in order to eliminate these feelings or what he was going through, these loneliness or the sense of feeling isolated or being very self-centered, in order to eliminate that is why God bought Eve to Adam. So here we see that God solemnized, he was the first one to conduct a wedding. Okay, so it was God's idea. So it's not the idea of our parents or the idea of society, it is God's idea. So when you look at Genesis 2, 24 and 25, you begin to see the meaning of marriage, you really get to see the essence of what marriage is, you know, it's like a textbook definition where, you know, God says it is, marriage is one man and one woman coming together, leaving everything else. Okay, he leaves and he cleaves so that they could be one person before God. So that's verse 24 and 25 for you, the definition of marriage. Okay, it is one man and one woman leaving everything else, coming together, embracing one another so that they could become one person before God. Okay, so when God was the one who designed this union, he was the one who bought a counterpart for man. Now even if you look at this counterpart, the woman was suitable for man but yet was different. Okay, the woman was suitable for man but was yet different. So he made someone, you know, who was probably physically different, who was intellectually a bit different, emotionally different. Now maybe for those of us which, you know, we're going to be exploring later, but those of you who've been married for many years, you would have understood the way that you emote and the way that your spouse emotes are very, very different. Okay, now for example, if you have a conflict, generally, now this is, there can be exceptions to the rule, generally there will be a woman who would like to talk it all out, you know, iron it all out, finish it and, you know, she settled. Whereas the man would like to, again, generally exceptions are there. Okay, generally would like to, you know, go watch a football game or go play some basketball or go see a cricket match or, you know, go try and win something and then he settled a bit. So we are different, we're suitable, we're different but what God bought together was in order to bring about something really dynamic and something that is effective. Okay, so understanding that God was the one who designed marriage. Okay, so when you look at the scripture, you know, and I just want to bring you back to what, you know, what is written in the New Testament, where Matthew quotes the same, you know, same in a gist. So it's in Matthew 19 verse 5 and 6, he says, for this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and unite with his wife and two will become one. Okay, so that's where, again, you see Jesus, sorry, Matthew recording what Jesus says, is that Jesus also says the same thing. He says, man will leave his father and mother, unite, again, leave and the two will become one. So it is something that continues to be a thread from what the Old Testament says to what the New Testament says. Okay, and when you look at these three words, which makes the definition of marriage, it's very significant. Okay, and I think that's a question we can ask ourselves if we are married. You know, have I left? Have I left other relationships? Now, what this meaning of leaving comes, we will discuss a lot more in detail. So have I left my other earthly relationships? Have I cleaved? Have I joined together? You know, what this joining means, it's like you have two pieces of paper, you put glue in it and you attach it, and you find it really hard to rip it off, because if you rip it off, you will have some parts of it on the other. Okay, so leave to cleave, and because you've cleaved, you become that one person, that is to join together, to be meshed, to be yoked together. So that is how God created this union of a man as well as a woman. So if it is God who's instructed this marriage, if he's the one who's designed it, then shouldn't he know the best about it? Alright, so are we in the right place? Yes, we are, because he will tell you, you know, if he's something he will tell you, hey, this is what I want to do. I'm sorry, I think I got disconnected for a bit. Am I audible? Yes ma'am. Yes ma'am. Am I audible students? Yes ma'am. Yes, yes ma'am. Thank you, thank you. Yeah, so sorry, my question was, yeah, so if God was the one who decided it, you know, he's definitely the one who will instruct us and tell us how it should go. Okay, so we're going to be looking at some perspectives that concern marriage and what we should be looking at. So one of the first perspectives or one of the first instructions God's give, instructions or understanding that God has given us is that marriage is a good thing. Marriage is a good thing. Okay, when if so we understand when God designs it, it is good. Okay, and he's declared it to be good. To add to this, you know, we see this in scripture in Proverbs 1822, it says, he who finds a wife finds a good thing. He who finds a wife finds a good thing and what else? And he obtains favor from the Lord. So it is when God has bought two people together, it is a good thing and there is favor in it. Now, even as we are saying this, there may be certain realities that we are in, right? Our marriages may not be as what God designed it to be. And if we see that, you know, when we are looking at this entire understanding of how God would like the marriage to be, yet in reality we are dealing with a situation that may be very difficult. But what is it that God wants us to do? It is even in the midst of the specific situation that you face, you, like I said, remember I talked about glasses. We choose to look at it with the view of how God has placed it. Okay, we look at it the way, we look at it at the way God instituted. So he has instituted that we see marriage as a good thing. So anytime you feel a sense of disappointment, make that confession. Make that confession that the Lord says that my marriage is a good thing. So if you can with your spouse, go back and at points of time that you're not able to really see what the goodness of it is, you know, speak this out. My marriage was designed by God to be a good thing, to bless others with it, to find favour for us to be able to be enriched, to be able to grow in his kingdom and what he wants us to be. So marriage, as we have seen or as God has declared, is a good thing. Okay, now even as we just have probably five more minutes for the end of this session, I just want to open it out for anyone who may have any questions, anybody would have any questions. Okay, I think someone has raised a question. Let me just read that question out. Beth, you had raised a question of what about 1 Corinthians chapter 7 verse 28. So let me read that verse for you. Okay, it says, but even if you do marry, you have not sinned, and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned, nevertheless, such will have trouble in the flesh, but I would spare you. Okay, so you're specifically, I think your question is, Beth, would you like to place a question on that? Would you like to place a question? Just Paul seems to be saying that actually if you get married, you'll have more troubles. And we're saying marriage is a good thing. So how do we balance the two? Okay, so if you look at Paul's life, he chose to stay single. Now, we will be addressing this in our future chapters. So when Paul was talking about being single, the only reason or some of the reasons why you can consider being single is when you are called to do something for the kingdom of God, you are called to service for God and you choose and you understand that you would, the pursuit of things of God would be greater than having, maybe having a relationship, having a marital relationship. So when you look at Paul at what Paul's saying is, he's saying, hey, you know, if you do get married, don't worry, it is not a sin. Okay, but if someone wants to get married, it is also not a sin. But he's saying that, you know, when you do have marriage and a family, there are going to be responsibilities, there are going to be things that's going to probably keep you from doing the work of God as complete as it would be if you were single. But that's again, that's a choice. God's not saying that it is wrong to be married or it is not wrong to be married. And that's what Paul is saying here. But if it is the pursuit of God in his kingdom, he said that's the choice that he's made. Right? I hope Beth, that was clear. Yeah, I'm in no way against marriage. I'm quite happily married. But also if you go further down in verse 40, he's talking about a woman whose husband dies and he says she's free to marry again. But if you ask my opinion, she'll be happier if she doesn't. So several times in the same passage, he's kind of indicating that if you're not married, you'll actually be a happier person. And I think all of us who are married, we know that there are a lot of stresses that come along, especially with the parenting and everything. So, you know, it just seems a little bit strange that we have Paul here saying you'll be happy if you don't marry. But then in Genesis, God is saying to Adam, here's a wife, so you won't be lonely. But also when you look at Genesis, we see that actually Adam was the only human. What if there was 20 other humans, male and female, and he could just enjoy their company? He might not have been so lonely. So, it just seems a lot of different aspects to the whole thing. Okay, so Beth, did I answer your question? Did I answer your question earlier that it was when Paul had his pursuit was the things of God. And that was his focus. That was the race he was running. And he was convinced that he was called by God to attain that. And our callings may all be different, maybe when it concerns with marriage too. And that's what you determine with God. So, what Paul's saying, either of these places aren't sinful. It is good if you're married, if you aren't, it is as good. So, he's giving you that ability to have your conversation with God or anyone, to have the conversation with God to settle that in. Yeah, I think one part of it is whether it's right or wrong. That's one part. But I think Paul also is addressing something else, which is who's going to be happier, who's going to have the easier life. And he's saying, actually, if you're single, you'll be happier and you'll have less troubles. He's not saying it's right or wrong. He's saying you'll have less troubles. Because clearly he says in verse 28, those who marry will face many troubles. So, better not be married. That's what he's saying. He's not actually saying is it right or is it wrong. He's just saying, from my experience, this is how it is. Okay, so that's a good insight. But on the other hand, if you look at Ecclesiastes, it says two are better than one. So, it talks about that as well. So, on either side of it, yes, when we are in the world, there will be trouble. We will face it. But if you were to probably look at a match, what is better, what isn't, probably on either sides of it, you will have your own challenges. But again, it is being keen to know what God would like you to do, whether in marriage or outside or out of marriage, not out of marriage, sorry, in marriage or without marriage, what God has led you to pursue. All right. Samuel, you had a question and we'll take this question and break. Yes, Samuel. I did, but I'm thinking it's a little too heavy, the question. So, cousin of mine, he stays in the same building that I do, I see him every day. So, believer, Christian, the whole family. So, he got married and then they didn't have kids. The wife couldn't have kids. And she took to drinking and then the husband, I think they've been married for a little over 20 years, but almost half, like 10 years, he did his best for his wife, I would say. Even to an extent where they went and adopted a child who was, like, and then they were so blessed in terms of, like, the child that they adopted was a baby girl, was there from day one of the day that she was born. So, it was all as close to as the mother herself giving birth. But irrespective of that, the wife could not give up her alcoholism. Turns out that her, the wife's mom was an alcoholic and there's a history. So, it's, you know, like, even if the wife was not bad in it, there are good chances that she might have, you know, taken up to drinking, given the upbringing she was. But that's a spectrum. But now they're 20 years married and the husband's kind of given up on the wife, given up on the family. He, he, I think, I mean, the wife, gone to an extreme, like she's, the doctor's given her last child, like she's had liver cell ulcers and all of that. And so the doctor is like, if you don't change your ways, you'll die. So almost the whole, like every, I mean, she's a nuisance to the whole family. They're into a lot of counseling. Everyone's come, tried to have, now I think, so, so there are two perspectives. One is like, obviously they blame the wife a lot, but the family's reached such a point where they've all given up and I think, you know, where they're waiting for the wife to just die so that everybody has, so it's, it's that sorry state. And, and, and then a lot of people, like people knew, like I, I mean, a lot of people who come to you and just see that they either blame the wife or the husband for not, you know, fighting hard enough, like there's a lot of counseling and, you know, there's a lot of counseling to the wife, but also to the husband saying, like, you know, to fight harder for your, pray harder for your wife, go for a fasting prayer, does that. But he, he's kind of given up, because he's given up, it's been too long and too, too massive for him, painful for him. And, and as I read, like marriage is a good thing. It's, my heart's like heavy for, for the guy that I think of him, you know, so I know this is true. Marriage was designed by God, but I look at his life and then I don't see that in his life, you know, and it just, so that's just I was thinking of. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Sam. Maybe I think I just have one thing to say is that, and we break just, just a few seconds, is that when we do know, you know, God gives us a spirit and a sense to know that something is not going right in a relationship. And when, and if we are able to pay heed to the spirit early on, and, you know, get help for it, or, you know, get counsel for it, or work through it, the outcomes are much better. Right. And, and this is something that I've seen even in counseling people who come early on in situ in relationships where there is a struggle, have far better outcomes than those who drag it for years and years and years hoping that things would just sort out on its own. Right. So the spirit nudges us, but it is something each of us make the choice to step in to work in obedience to that, to that nudge that the spirit gives us to work on. So as a, I think as an application for each one of us, even if we are ministers, we can have struggles. Okay. Especially I think ministers are specifically targeted, people who, who are in the Lord are just as much targeted. Right. So at any point of time that you have a concern in your marriage, in a relationship, in the family, seek help. It's not wrong to seek help. It's not wrong to get, to get Godly counsel. It's not wrong to be mentored by, by another couple who is strong in the Lord. All right. Okay. Thank you. Thank you so much for your questions. So we'll take a 10 minute break. It's 10 58 on my clock. So we will return in 10 minutes. Okay. Thank you. Have a good coffee break. Thank you ma'am.