 I would like to invite our first moderator and our first two speakers for the first panel that will focus on digital artistic cross-border collaboration. And the moderator is Chiara Argentini and we'll have two speakers, Petra Hanoes and Alma Salem. Please welcome. Hi, my name is Chiara Argentini, I'm a curator and cultural manager at Alipur. I'm a woman, she, her. I'm a woman in her 40s, quite petite, small, long red hair, green eyes, wearing a black jacket with some animal beauty and silver skirt that's behind a block that is just in front of me. I'm very honored, excited and delighted to be the first voice today during this long marathon of thoughts that on the move cooked up for us for almost two years. And I'm very grateful for the invitation because we do have collaborated on several projects and the yearbook is one of the ladies as you heard. And every time for me, what on the move is providing is really a space to reflect and just to stop from the doing of projects like Chris Lee and be able to see to zoom out to harvest the learning and name them. And I think that's such a vital part of our doing because then it's the only way we have to protect to advocate for what we do and really to name things. They have the bold kept idea of capturing flying things. And I think this digital mobility is one of those. And it's still on the moving and it's still in the air. So it's a precious opportunity to pin it down also with the experience of two great guest speaker that we have today. So I really thanks on the move also for the opportunity to connect me with this great and powerful voices today in this first panel we have with us Petra Hannes and Alma Salem. I will briefly introduce them but then I will also leave the space for a much deeper investigation of what they have been doing. Petra is a cultural program coordinator at the good Institute in Finland. She is active mainly in the performing arts field so she's taking care of project that deals with dance music but also interdisciplinary project. Her mandate within the gay institute is to promote intercultural exchange. So the cross border cross cultural collaboration stays in that area. But she has a very specific approach that they really value in the way she foster her mandate she's always attentive to voice silence knowledge and to challenge the hegemonic narrative, which means she brings up a perspective that is really careful about diversity, diversification. She's part of a platform called I hate it now stop I hate it now. And also she's been doing a residency project called the rides to be called, which is a project around indigenous rights and environmental justice in the Arctic. She's also part of a group of good Institute practitioner looking for a more sustainable future for the institution. So these two axes like span through their experience and the stories she's going to tell. Alma Salem, she's a Syrian Canadian independent curator and cultural advisor. Her story spans from different geographies from Middle East, Europe, America, and she's also exploring how to connect to these worlds, and also how to investigate the many possibilities that the arts has to really expand how we can promote social change through the arts, how we can mix languages, visual performative physical digital to really enhance cultural relationship, peace and arts in political conflict and also looking at feminist issues, which is one of the latest investigation she's doing. And Alma moved also quite racistly geographically but also in terms of profile she has been part of institution for more than 20 years with a French Institute of the Levant before and then the British Council as program manager of the cultural program for the Mena region. And then she started her own, maybe her own product, which is the Alma Salem, a Buddha for curation and independent cultural advisor, and the Syrian six base contemporary arts and touring platform. And now she's currently executive director of a political movement for Syrian women. To briefly introduce what are we speaking about in this channel because I feel it's quite broad and intimidating the cross border digital collaboration. And I think we look at how the many modalities, ideas and formats the digital can provide for us to explore creative cooperative processes, also looking at the consequences or the side effect on the system of production and circulation and to give you a really thin line. I would like to stay with the last example so what what it means touring platform, a curatorial touring platform, and not a platform for touring curatorial work. And I think this shift in the vocabulary, it's really a shift in the perspective, because it means that we we moved from the idea of a platform that provides physical occasion for touring for productions that has their own concrete physical entity to a touring platform that is the work per se, that is a nomadic pop up organism that has the possibility to make ideas that exist in the femoral landing and appear and materializing spaces. I think that a very specific angle that I'd like to enter into with them. And it's about something that I also mentioned in the yearbook when I was asked to reflect on the digital mobility and what it means. I think we can really make it meaningful. If we profit from the specific key feature that the digital has to offer that stays in this idea of strengthening and intimate and interactive connection. Interactiveness, it's part of the digital that we can bring in how we co create and collaborate cross border digitally this idea of border, because actually through the digital we can rewrite the border but the geography per se because we live in a real virtual but not fake parallel world that interfere with the world we are living in. So it is a way to challenge political geographies and border and also to voice silence knowledge and make space for alternative narratives and scenarios. And on that side, I think it's important also to enter in a mindset where it is not or or it is not physical or digital. So there is always hybridity, metaphysical and not metaverse space in which what we do in the digital has a sensual impact on our experience and maybe that's relevant considering the performing arts field. So for me when reflecting back I thought of all the meaningful experiences I have been through online and those who really stays with me mobilized somehow my emotion so we're not situation put online while born for the analogical space so we're not just surrogate but really explore the potential and of the digital environment to impact the format and how they were made. Having said that, I don't want to take so much space and time from the reflection and the stories we're going to hear today, but to enter and connecting this frame with their own story I would like to start from the personal and start from the essence. So, not necessarily in the digital feature, but to be able to move a meaningful cross border collaboration in the digital. I would like to hear from them from their own story, what makes cross border collaboration meaningful in the first place. So why and how this topic enter in their story back since even before the collapse, because if we photograph that moment maybe we can also see how this navigated in the real world in the real in the current world. I might give the world to Petra and to ask you why was it in your story is cross border collaboration meaningful and appear in the first place. Thank you Chiara. Thank you for the great introduction. Yes, my name is Petra Hannes. I'm a blonde woman in my 40s. I am wearing a pinkish maybe that's the color long dress short sleeves and I have glasses and big green earrings that are in form of leaves. Yes, and I use the pronouns she and her. Yes, like Chiara told I'm working in the cultural department of Gertensdorf, Finland. I'm in charge of the projects that deal with the dance, music, theatre and also some interdisciplinary projects. Maybe going back to like what brings to me to why our cross border collaboration so important, I think it was always clear to me that I would work somehow in a more international field. Maybe it has some something to do with my personal past I was living in Africa and South America. I came earlier and also in some place in Europe and it just really feels important to see people in other places feel like the other conditions people are living in. I think it's crucial for us to be creative to innovate to do artistic projects to understand the world better if we just have more encounters. Yeah, I used to work for the city of Helsinki in Eastern Helsinki as a cultural producer and there wasn't about cross border collaborations but there were a lot of encounters with internationality because I was mainly working with artists with diverse backgrounds. Then four years ago I started working for, I found this job in Gertensdorf, Finland where I thought okay yeah that's there I could learn more about the international collaborations knowing that Gertensdorf is a really big network. There are almost 100 institutes in more than 150 countries so to get the scope of it like it's really huge and I've been there collaborating with working with the residencies I'll talk maybe later more about the right to be called that I already mentioned and some projects that have to do with diversity. That's a big focus also in the whole Gerte world we have these focus points and that's one big focus point. And also in the past years I've been in this group that deals with sustainability so it's an internal Gerte intern network where we talk about new formats talk about sustainability what we need to change in our practices. So I guess is that enough? No, it's a live scenario. So just like even though I'm trying to work and also in personal life think a lot about ecological sustainability but I think it's not taking away the part that cross border collaborations are really important. And we just have to think of new formats how to do it more sustain and more fair to everyone. Thank you a lot. I think what we hear it is about this possibility to expand also the world we know through encountering one another and I like that you said we need to rethink the practices so we as an institution is not just the artist needs to explore a way to survive and I think that's pretty crucial and Alma you have a different story I guess and a different journey that brings other aspect beyond the expansion of encounters and they give you. Thank you. So, my name is Alma Salim. I'm from Syria and I'm Canadian too. I'm have Mediterranean features so white skin long dark hair. I'm quite a big woman, and I'm wearing all black and so happy to be here. Okay, so really worth to start it's very difficult to narrow down. You know, a lot of whole life, maybe. But I believe that, I mean, when I started. So, I mean to speak about cross borders, I think that the meaning of my life itself since I was very little I knew that I came to this life to see the world and then leave. So, I think all starts from me that I know exactly why am I here or what I want to what I want to do before dying. And, and this is what I'm interested in so since I was very young, I was at university, I, I organized the first. It was the first time Syria delegation went to the International Youth Forum, it was 350,000 young people from all over the world who came to Paris, and it was the first time where Syria was present so I wanted really to take Syria to the international place and you know I come Syria was very close as you know, we all were trying to open it and the through, through many mediums one of them absolutely was cultural relations. It's not an easy context because you know, sometimes these relationships are dominant are dominated with, you know, colonial post colonial powers and sometimes many try to break them and break structures of hegemony, but coming from a place where I was born under a dictatorship. At the same time these cross border collaborations appear to be oxygen appear to be a must in that the sense that in order to break that intellectual siege. It was a medium for it. We have always cultural institutions, especially foreign ones in Syria, where the only past sometimes for us to even gather, you know, Syrians weren't allowed to gather and speak and create clubs. So, these spaces in itself became that safe haven, or beside homes and besides small spaces here and there. So for me and the language itself was the first barrier to cross to be able to connect so I taught myself languages very early French and English and of course I have the Arabic so this also. I think that the first place where you to cross body barrier is the language. So, yeah, and then at the if or talking about back to digital, the digital word, I believe that I mean I joined if for a city for said your portion in 1950 and at the time the digital activity was all about documentation I believe it that was the key aim for it it was the development of an opportunity to access to give more access so we digitize in order to open archives in order to give access to people who can't get into the physical mediums to touch them to to also rely on them to search and so on. So I archived 50,000 photo from World War II and 7000 map at the time it was the, you know, the first Francis Libert du Levant photography aerial photos on what you call the ghetto type you know maybe some of you would know it's, it's very interesting some of them I printed for the first time and then digitize them so that collections all online now, and it's not only aerial photos but it's every single stone that was found in an archaeological mission in Syria so you know when the war happened in Syria I was like felt such a blessing for having done this over 11 years that weren't easy, you know me sitting in a basement at in Damascus working on this and at the basement basement also of the National Museum sometime. Yeah, and then the value just suddenly appeared of digitizing that it's about, you know, conserving heritage, and I believe that before we go to art, we should set the stone with heritage because heritage is the trace and being able to set the stone of a trace and then you can move to futures and then you can widen the imagination. So these were my first 10 years. And then the second decade started with the 2005 I was working with the British Council and this gave me an a long like a push for cultural relations. It was the trend at the time this is the word we the buzzword was cultural relations, intercultural dialogue, cultural exchange, maybe some of you in the room remember the 2000s the millennium when we started and the millennium was a was a moment also to bring people together, because it was like, you know the Olympics and in a kind like everyone wanted to meet everyone wanted to work and I believe that at time where we were more analog than ever before we're traveling traveling and creating forums and and cultural leadership gatherings and it was the the moment of mobility and the convention 2005 convention for cultural diversity also pushed that into looking at the periphery cultural periphery of Europe and cultural and the Mediterranean to and North Africa, all that movement was happening there and it was also a very exciting time where we made artistic friendships. And I believe that this set a good like, I mean, a good base also to be able to move into the digital era with strong relationships so we know the people, but that I think that this is something this is something we should never forget that those who managed to get together knew each other first. Those who created the best digital experience are people who came in person together or trusted each other who had a nice dinner together who had as we say in Arabic salt and bread, you know. So, yeah, that's it I mean, I think that this is it maybe I will leave the third really the actual digital work to another. I think we already enter in that in that spirit the reason why I wanted to start so far away. It's because exactly I was curious to listen to the essence of cross border collaboration so what it means and what it can do in order to move it in the digital sphere. And I hear interesting topic here that goes from the possibility to challenge space with, you know, expanded geography, but also to challenge time because through conservation archiving of knowledge. Exactly there is the possibility to accompany something that is living in the past and in the future and I think that's an interesting also breathing space that we can explore, plus this idea of having real connection real that can be physical because we have been meeting before, but also real because the way we come together online as a specific capacity, really to get us intimate one another. So, coming from this huge topic, I would like to explore, also in a very honest way with you. Some examples or stories coming to the pandemic and what happened that function or not in your opinion so when was a project really meaningful what can be done online through the digital and one cannot be done. Honestly, and this conversation sparkle with Petra because she was also very direct saying okay but not everything can be moved online so I'm curious to hear what can and what what cannot and also why. What what's your opinion on that. Yeah, good question. I have to say that I'm really glad and surprised how quickly Goethe Institute actually reacted when COVID started and all the lockdowns and then this is how to say complete full stop. So, there were a lot of digital offers and for example, there was from our music department from mentioned there was a digital or virtual resident partner residents fund created very quickly, and it actually was supposed to be only for the first year but then it went further and then there were a lot of online completely online projects. I researched some before this discussion, and also I was last week in Berlin in a festival about feminisms organized by Goethe Institute frequencies, it was called so there I met some colleagues and heard from many very interesting online projects. For example, I heard about process of creatives, a distancia, which was, which they started in South America where they had, they had like artistic collaborations they really, they were I think they were put in pairs or there were groups and they were they were really creating something online. And, for example, one, I remember watching one video where there were two artists who were sending material from their own places and then they hadn't met, they were really doing this exchange and they had met each other and then at the end where there was already something created, then they met for the first time, but also in online. And then there was like in Sudan, they're really interesting, completely digital, like there were a lot of digital residences, Sudan moves, what that was that project called, which also you can find all these online really interesting backgrounds and podcasts, they were also exhibition created in that online, in those online residences and, and then I remember hearing from one, one colleague from India last week in Berlin from a virtual residency in, in, in Calcutta, so it was organized by Gertens of Calcutta. And it's usually it's a residency that is I don't know every year and they, they travel to Calcutta and that the city itself has a really big, great role in the whole, whole residency. So they created our online virtual platform where they were actually really in Calcutta, and I don't know more about that project. So, so I haven't been involved in that many. I haven't been actually involved in pure online projects at all this COVID base but we the project I might talk a bit about is the project I already mentioned in the introduction, the right to be called, which ended up being hybrid, it was supposed to be really almost only offline. So it was about subjects like climate justice, indigenous rights, climate change, and, and focusing on, on, on indigenous perspectives. So the, the idea was, and it's an like interdisciplinary project in the Arctic and Boreal region. We were doing together with Gertens students from Oslo, here from Finland, and then Novosibirsk and Montréal. And so of course, very, very trans-regional project, but the, the idea was, was having indigenous artists moving and actually there was going to be a residency relay where they would travel to two various residences in these areas. So Saka in Russia and, and, and Sapmi and also Vasa here in Finland, and then Norway and, and, and Nunavik. And then of course, it was already planned, planned before COVID. So then when, when COVID quit all the, or stopped all the traveling, then we of course had to think completely new way of the project. And we did have like online gatherings and the beginning where, where they were actually crucial for the beginning of the project where we, because we really got to, got to know the artists, they, they, they were explaining about their practices and works and showing also pictures of the works and videos and, and then the residency places they were presenting like they had like this virtual visits that they were giving us. So it was a really important, the online part in the beginning. But I have to say that we were so happy 2021, because we were all the time thinking, okay, do we have to make also the residencies completely digital. But we were so happy that there came this gap where you could travel, we just had to organize everything really quickly and there was counseling and reorganizing like, I don't know how many times. And, and there was all these practical issues like with Sputnik vaccination, you couldn't travel to Norway at all, also actually not to Finland, but we got a special permit for our artists from Saka. So we managed to do the project in a bit like stripped away. So there weren't two residencies for each, actually for two people there was only online residency, but for four people, five, five people were really, yeah, five people were really traveling to one residency. And, and there we just saw when we, when we had that because we had the, the honor to have three of the artists here in Finland. One going to Sabmi and two staying in Vasa in Malakkan. And, and we just saw how extremely important that live encounter was for all of them. For example, our, our artist from Tatiana from Saka was, was telling me after us that she can't describe, describe how important it was for her to have these discussions with Niapp, artists from Nunavik, who was staying with her, like they had two times, two weeks time where they were both staying in Malakkan then they had both time apart. And it was so, so crucial for her having these discussions and understanding that there's a person from an indigenous nation from very far away who was dealing with the same kind of problems as herself. So, so for me, it was, it was hybrid, hybrid, but for me, the most important part was the offline part, I have to say, but and, but it is possible to, for example, to build trust and have the encounters that we did in the beginning, but somehow it was went to another level when we, when we came offline. And, and yeah, I mean thinking of like who can travel for it's for us, of course, think of the sustainable way that like not letting people fly into Finland for one, one performance or one, one presentation or so, so we try to really think of the sustainability issues, but we also think of like who is traveling. I think that that's exactly the right question to to ask. I was very interested also in how the cross border, the digital cross border collaboration applies to institution. And I hear that before the pandemic, maybe most of them could not explore properly the resources that the digital offer also in terms of restructuring their own infrastructure globally. And I was struck by hearing that most of the places you mentioned are located in the global south. So how also global north global north but also you mentioned other examples. Oh, yeah, the other ones are not reaching out like far away branches. So again, we see the digital as a way to re explore the geographical agenda also of an institution that can answer this question who gets to travel and why. So how this parallel geography is exactly a way to rewrite our power system and our world. And to this topic, I think Alma, you can open up a lot of perspective, exploring the digital as the real environment of a project that is born in that space for choices or not but really exploring at the maximum, the potential of the dimension. Thank you, Kyara. Yeah, well, I mean to continue the story. I mean, after this phase 2011 came. Okay, it was an Arab spring moment in the region at the time I was leading on the us programs in the Middle East South Africa so this means 17 countries so we're really everything was happening. So I was in Tahir Square, I was in Habib Burqiba, I was in Erbil, I was of course in Damascus and Beirut and, and I think that it's very important to remember, because it's always considered that the Syria model as a digital model is an outstanding one, like how Syrians came virtually maybe not digitally but how they virtually came together and started creating, but we always need to remember that this need was created on the street, it was created with actual, you know, blood and dancing and chanting and, and, you know, it was created in the public, public place. And then suddenly with the absence of the public space and the access to it where all the artists had to flee Syria because of persecution. And then not only artists because 7 million people suddenly left Syria together and 7 million were displaced internally so speaking about 14 million. And practically, in terms of geography Syria disappeared for as a as a common space as a common place. So we, Syrians turned from being in a place to a space. I believe this is a moment of digital transformation. So the digital world came to offer a space to replace the place that became impossible. And I mean, at that moment, we created projects in, especially in the Levant, North Africa and the Gulf, around 300 grant and to capture the new voices and capture the vibes of the sweets and then while we were creating these projects, they appear to be happening online mostly because, because of many factors. So the, the digital space responded to the fear factor. Okay, so it was, you can deep said on him on a digital space, no one would know who you are. So it is, it gives kind of protection in the case of persecution. It's created as a space for exploration research collaboration so where people needed to meet and I specify here mainly Facebook for Syrians because we spoke about the Syria Facebook at the time that popped up online and even my mother and grandmothers and they were all suddenly on Facebook, and it's still the most vibrant Facebook. And like now if I miss my mother and she's a painter so she's painting and she upload a photo of her painting I know that today she was painting this so it was also a daily need to connect with people you miss you people you lost in your daily life so it's very human. It wasn't only a, you know, it wasn't it doesn't only came as a collaborative space for creation but also the community came together. It's where everyone is so it became a country in itself. And I think that this was a drastic model based that was compulsory like Maria said this morning it was forced it wasn't by choice. And I believe that, you know, we all know that imagination comes as a solution. And so the digital space gave that possibility to reimagined the daily and shared life and later on started developing so I hear like give example of what my colleagues created a creative memory of Syria so documentation activists toward like collecting but then. Spaces for meeting we didn't have zoom at the time, but it was mainly what's up. We need the Twitter for also lobbying, lobbying campaigning. Those were needs at the time because we were trying to tell the truth and tell the story. So, also, the only way to do it is to speak to the international community so the digital space gave us access and gave us a place for voice. And at the same times in terms of artistic collaboration at the time. I was trying to define this theoretically so I found the third space theory of homie Baba. And I mean Bob is in the 60s he imagined the virtual space as a space that is remote and physical at the same time, and where people can come in all kinds of identities so it broke the identity structure, the geographies the historicality. The power, the power dynamics, and it was so inspiring for me so I create the first exhibition I did when I became a curator and why I became a curator because of the need to sort of sophistication. So conceptualization also became a refuge for me to be able to bring together the physical space and the digital space and also all types and all kinds of people who needed to come together to create a meaningful product online. So, I think that the digital space not only allows for artistic collaboration so it's not only between artists it's where, you know, politicians come, journalists comes, activists comes, audiences are there. So, yeah, we needed to bring all types of people together to for that space to be meaningful. And this is where I created Syria, six space later also third space was the first exhibition in London, it took to Ireland and then to Brussels at the European Parliament. So it's kind of a complex structure that brings the political need with the digital tool, and at the same time the possibility of an in person meeting because many, many Syrians, they couldn't get access they couldn't leave they don't have visas they can't travel they don't have mobility. So the whole concept was where artists cannot be mobile their art can. So it was a realization moment so you could. I think I think every artwork in all starts with that magic element surprise element and I believe that this is what the digital space gave us it gave us that the ability to constantly have a magical moment to realize what desperation and, you know, that feeling of inability, getting stuck in a place where put in this bombing Syria, you all know now what it means at the time we were screaming and saying, and I understood what it means, like the chaotic meaningless bombing that no one, no one can understand why, and it's the same today with Ukraine. So we were trying to to find the meaning in that non, non explainable space and I think that digital space gave us the, not only the possibility to create but also the possibility to have a meaning and to have hope so I, I give an example here of the siege hunger siege of homes, where I mean we could access the community there and turn their hopes and stories and photos and exhibit this in London. And they they didn't ask for money. They just they were and or in Hulu or in other places. I worked with activists all over Syria who just sent me their photos to exhibit in that city of space exhibition, maybe around 20 and I put a focus on the citizen journalists at the same at that time. They just wanted to tell the story so we managed to collect you know from all over Syria, photographers put them on one wall, get the messaging pull the narrative conceptually. So I think that it's not a simplified space it's really, it has a potential to be, you know, a solution for so many impossibilities. Well, and then later on, I mean, I can continue to speak for three days. I know and maybe also in a few minutes we will take some questions so there is the space for explore even more. For me with what I, what I sense here. It's also a shift that you brought in which is quite important from the notion of place to the notion of space. And I think this idea of the digital as a public space is a new public space it's relevant. Because actually, I was going to say that it is an agora where you can find confrontation where you can find a melange of voices, but also you can offer anonymity to people that could not speak out otherwise. And I had similar experience with other political situation, but that's really a value that tackle the topic of accessibility, because we are often reminded that the media the means the technology of digital could not be accessible to everyone. But there is another side of that, which is actually the conversation that he enabled. And I do have also here another maybe question that goes to the melange and hybridity of the physical and the digital, especially from a personal professional perspective of someone was often being active inside specific projects. So my question back then was how do we maintain this relationship. How do we make sure that what we do in situ and so specifically, it is not narrowing down the possibility to speak internationally enforces this national narrative so how do we keep it open. How do we make ideas circulating more than bodies eventually. And I remember we spoke about couple of example that also changes the way artists co create work, like having idea flying to places without bodies without touring. And I think that's maybe an in between shift that tackle this idea of accessibility and sustainability with a specific model and practice. So maybe if you want to just share a few words about this in between hybrid and physical and why it was meaningful. It brings us to some final thoughts, but I don't know if you wanted to say more. Yeah. Maybe you start. What was the question about hybridity. Yeah, the experience that were both physical and not digital at the same time or virtual. And you mentioned some example of the touring without going for instance so that kind of practices that can bring things in between spaces. I mean, someone really stuck in the previous discussions so interesting everything you told Alma about about the different situations and war situations and like really thinking of how important is that we have the connection to so this kind of places that are either closed or like don't have the possibility to to to physical mobility. But I think I have to think about it. So yeah, I'll give an example of a second exhibition I curated is called to rub the earth I spoke about it a bit late yesterday. It was alongside the conference for the future of Syria that happens every years in Brussels, which is like for pledging for Syria. Theoretically, it is like that. So I wanted actually it was a collaboration with Goethe and the cultural diplomacy platform. And so it's very important here to speak about partnerships to because even when you create a digital work, and you want to bring that hybridity you need partnerships so it's always we know that if we arrive to a place, you need a local partner like here for example you are at the Nordic point and on the move created that wonderful partnership and that made the space available for us. So we still needed to get into the old classic models of programming and designing and bringing, you know, the world together. And I think that although all the artwork was created online. So the collaboration happened between artists in gatherings on Skype on zoom on. We didn't have on Skype on on mainly Facebook or messenger and then you know the classic also communication tours which is about emails and so on. So we recreate creating together, but also what was very important is to be able to create artworks that are uploadable online. So and the key challenge is how to create an artwork that doesn't need the artist to be in the space. And this in itself brought a different model of curatorial practice, because you need it to be like my, my aim at the time is to be able to click one button and send the whole exhibition, even for me not to be physically in the place. And that that's that's in itself is a is an artistic challenge is an aesthetic challenge is how to it's a cinematography challenge. And so I have been experimenting all the time I've been experimenting so when I did to rub it gathered 70 artists think their fellow, you know, researcher and it was in Brussels. It was so interesting because when I created the gallery that is a very very small gallery stuffed with artwork I wasn't happy, because it's so different when you live in the place and you have I don't know too much to create a space or when you pop up. So the pop up brings you into a last minute thing where you not necessarily satisfy your aesthetic standards. And you need to manage also with lack of resources and we need to know that always resources for seniors were very very limited. All those challenges of I sometimes put it together under the concept of lightness, I mean, we needed to be light and everything. A refugee needs to be light and can't carry a lot of a lot of even souvenirs and children toys and you know and I remember what I left in Syria, for example, antiquities, carpets, all this you don't carry and it was the same in the artistic model. The Syrian artist needed to be light in their creation for an order for it to travel in order for it to be disseminated and they needed also to gain, to gain their bread from it so it needed to sell. It's like this multitude of challenges that the digital space offered and at the same time limited. So when I when I remember being in that gallery after displaying all the artworks I got in and I felt a void, a void and pain of not having the audiences who should be seeing this, you know, it was, it was us speaking to the audience. It was serious speaking to audiences to Belgium, to Belgium audience, which is okay, maybe it doesn't mean to them. So also popping up and being online you never know who comes to comes to that base and are these people interested are you really engaging so there's a lot of questions about engagement and and I think always we all look for meaning for what you do and that's the big question. So at that time when I count when I came to that space that was all applaudable to us creation so either photography documentary. I did also at the time augmented reality, I explored virtual reality and I bought I remember from Amazon the $8, you know, thing because because I'm not in a space that's offering the right technology to be able to create virtual reality but I so much wanted this it's not an artwork I created. It's about it was about vision breeders and flying over Syria and so on. I don't want to get you in that place but anyway, and that void and then I started contacting art Syrian artists in Brussels to come and performing artists specifically to get the place live and musicians, and I felt that, yeah, in order to be hybrid be creating online but popping up physically in person. When you pop up physically, you need to have a physical experience to have an in person experience so this is where musicians in the place are important this is where dancers are, you know, they turn that place life, you can just juggle wherever you want with the applaudable artworks but when you meet when you gather when you convene this becomes a totally different dynamic and therefore totally different artworks and yeah it's all that and I just want to finish by saying that now I'm launching my new exhibition called wave in Paris on the first of July if you are in Paris please let me know I'll be happy to invite you and well I do have time to speak about it for him because I want to just mention one. Yeah. Well, you know, this one is very special because it's post COVID or you want to move into post COVID. No, I think we can. Yeah, finish with this. Yeah, because post COVID is so important. It's a different phase, you know, being in the post COVID in the COVID situation for 10 years before COVID was so interesting. Because we came to COVID and we just smiled you know it's like okay now when people started what to do we shift where everything we've been like living like this for nine years. So we just at the time, I think what we benefited mostly as Syrians from COVID is being able to get different people in the room virtually. I would give an example, especially from my work, my current work as executive director of the Syrian one political movement. We managed to get Peterson in the room for our General Assembly conference we managed to get you know the special envoys for Syria, foreign affairs, everybody, all the decision makers, we couldn't reach in the in person place the physical place, they were attending our conference. So the, the all the political aspect that we were looking for and coming to it from the artistic place to the political place I think it suddenly changed. And I found myself like in that place, actually turning from being an activist to someone was doing actual politics at this, at the, you know, being with the Security Council working for a project at the Security Council Human Rights Council and all those places that COVID really helped us to bring there but also our networks and our work and our then the meaningful cause. So there's always it all goes down into the need at the end and into the course if we don't have a meaningful message if we don't have a meaningful post to put online, then no one, people just scroll down. So I think we always need to come back to point one point zero, which is about creating great art that tells a great story. And even a great story cannot be told with poor art. So it's always about having quality of great art and at the same time, at the same time, I mean it felt story for for visitors. And also sharing I think is a big, big word, like having all these great projects and concepts and formats mentioned didn't use showing without going. I thought it was a fantastic idea. A couple of artists just collected so many, so many various examples of real, real formats that can be touring without a person or at least a group traveling. And I was also made me think that website also made me think of the importance of our networks and collaboration also not only between artists but also between festival directors, producers, like we had, we were together with artists of London, we had project or they initiated a project Imagine in Futures where festival directors from all over the world were discussing the future and the role of civic society and the future of art in future and theater in future. And I think that kind of it wasn't very big group, but but they were like from all over the world. So I think that kind of curatorial meetings groups teams could be very important in order to travel less to, to, to help set spread information on various interesting concepts projects. Someone tells in that group, hey I've seen this amazing performance and so like not everyone from that group, for example need to travel so I think we really need to think of, of the privilege, like, like who gets to travel. Yeah. And to make it meaningful at the most know I think yeah, in different dimension but there is a common line that is bringing together people that could have not otherwise through the digital thinking about the situation of knowledge might be an artistic, you know vessel of knowledge or a political issue and situation. And also, yes this idea of creating online for the physical or creating physical experiences that use the digital so it's different model with the same, let's say final aim, which is to offer compelling experience that can twist a message, otherwise we're just using the digital for playful entertaining way. And that's exactly far away from our purpose. Can I, can I just add here that the experience is very important. Because what you create digitally, like as digital artworks to be displayed and exhibited in the physical space might not necessarily be interesting when it's virtual so when you create virtual, you need to create virtual, you need to create a virtual interactive experience and and take into consideration that space in the totality. So yeah just having materials or artworks that were created and just uploading is not, is not really curating digitally and that's a learning I, I've had because you know I've, I've done twice on the two of the exhibitions I curated were online one with the website to actually work created created for it a website still I'm so not satisfied with those websites because they didn't even bring the concept and and I was still looking I'm still looking for it to create a digital experience that is that will give similar, you know, similar experience for the with the with the physical space. And that in itself is something that we need to develop I believe as tools. And here I just want to say that I found it a museum called the freedom museum registered in Montreal I just closed. And my aim was like, you know, okay I'm curating this exhibition I wanted to. I had a question about the continuity and the audience and the sustainability so I. I closed it because I felt that I felt that I mean during COVID. I did like a small survey with with, you know, users. Yeah, users with mainly art professionals around me and I asked them did you visit a virtual museum and no one said yes. And so I felt that okay I don't want to I don't want to go into that place I just want to continue popping up and experimenting because I feel that it's a time for experimentation just want to add by saying that by the end of COVID to key changes in the digital world happened one is the metaverse, and the second is an FT and when I when I founded the museum in 2017 this is what I was looking for the like a metaverse I wanted to for the audiences to have an experience where they feel the space if they if they have their cast and but I'm not Mark Zuckerberg and and then so I just want to say that okay but now this is for the future a great opportunity for us to inhabit those new. Metas and you know those new new universes I would say and bring our interesting content and develop it and experiment so yeah I think that. Creativity is endless with the with the new, especially the NFT for for me because this is monetizing this is monetizing this is what we've always spoke about about entrepreneurship in the art, this is exactly it. So, NFTs killed the curator from they they want so this panic and it's and it democratize the space for artists, so we really need to go there and we we shouldn't be afraid and shouldn't be late. We shouldn't be late. We should be a giant and we also need tools we need knowledge. That's the point and that's I think a good food for thoughts for the panel that's going to come next that it's exactly about how do we rethink also our skills, our attitudes, the methods so how do we curate context audiences but also how do we help artists or as an artist we rethink the way we do things and somehow the priority of that. And maybe we can have a few minutes for a couple of curiosity questions or doubts reflection feedback from you here in presence and also I don't know if from the streaming, we can also welcome some thoughts, you have to tell your name and. Yes, I'm the founder of CFW. I'm also board member of on the move. And you look. I'm another Mediterranean woman with white skin, white and black hair wearing a red dress and a black jacket. I think as much as the digital word offering such opportunities for experimenting testing money times and whatever. I think we also, it will only go. Okay, for everybody if parallel to that there is a deep reflection about the legal framework of it and taken into consideration that unequal access to technology, because we will be just transfer I mean as much it's an opportunity that is balancing the power. And opening opportunity if this issue of equal access to technology and knowledge and ownership of legal framework for intellectual property, it's not equal. We will be just transferring inequality in this new universe. So it's really important that we tackle both at the same time. Hi, everyone up on a pan of sky advisor for Dutch cultural trans artists from Amsterdam. I was listening to you talking and it's you had like great examples of how Internet and how artists and how we all use the Internet during the pandemics. What I see is we are still in the honeymoon stage of the usage of Internet is like when Internet started in the 90s. I think it was a free space for everyone getting access to ever getting information to everyone, and then came, then things started to to clarify in a sense of marketing then came Amazon then came Google. So then came the Giants, then came the monopoly of our Internet. And my question is, where do you see the future of digital mobility, having in mind that we are also very fragile in this situation. We still haven't been obviously abused in giving our living rooms, our bedrooms, giving complete access to our lives. And it gave us so many good things, but where do you see the future with knowing the fragility of it also for security of so many artists and cultural professionals that are in precarious situations. That's a very large one. Yeah, I can answer. Yeah, well, I think the simple answer is inevitable. It's like this is this is a place that we created as humans and it became bigger than us. I mean, 10 years ago when everyone was speaking about globalization, people used to cultures identities where what will happen. And then today we know, I mean, we managed us as humans to overcome all those barriers and challenges, but in any case, I don't see that we have an option to stay outside. I mean, to bring down the net. So I think that we need to have our, you know, democracy, democracy is not something we establish and then we forget about the democracy. We need to work for democracy freedoms and rights every single day, because the minute you turn your head, it's gone. So this is a daily job for us to ensure security to digital security to ensure justice, fairness, access. I think that this is something that is absolutely similar to the physical world we live in. We have social responsibility there and we all need to be responsible when it comes to the net. And if I may add, I think that I also like to address big question looking at what could we do in order to avoid this, you know, the rife that you're mentioning and coming also from an organization and an institution. I think that we can exactly provide the space where we kind of moderate the counter side, the downsides, the economical risks and the legal framework for the people we welcome in it. And maybe rather than renting the production of more and more durable things, we can engage our funding in defining and protecting a legal frame or spaces that can actually enable people to create properly avoiding this hijacking and then jeopardizing the freedom of the message. But that's easy to tell. You're putting much effort or pressure on keeping, making them even safer the spaces. Another dimension partnership on culture. I had a question about competencies. So the digital sphere is becoming very dominant and a really relevant dimension of artistic and cultural practice. So, how does this challenge the US creators and program managers, what kind of elements of competencies and skills are now topical and essential to acknowledge that kind of competencies do we need? Yeah, it's not the next panel. Yeah, we might leave it to the next panel, just to be shared to our next speakers, but I will leave it. Yeah, shall we wait, Mari, what do you think? We can answer. The list is long, so I think we are not, you know. Yeah, I think it's only fair for the next speakers to be given and we can maybe contribute there. Thank you. It's a great question, of course. Anyone else? Unless you have time, because we have to fail. How are we on time? I think we have a few more minutes, but I can tell I felt pretty much like a baby when we started doing things online because we have to technically equip ourselves, which is one level. But also there is an attitude which is different to the listening capacity also to this online audience relationship. So that was also my thought and the capacity to tackle different layers also in terms of accessibility. For me, it was really like a baby step in the darkness because of the fastness of the reaction we were asked to take, but kind to escape the risk of doing something, you know, in reaction. I wanted to do something in response, which is different and so many different competencies. Technically, first check and you can do your courses and get updated, but it's more profound and it's linked to how do you listen, how do you prepare a setting. So it takes another consideration also of value your time and to expand it more to set it down. Because otherwise you enter in this wheel and in the quick show timing that make everything kind of superficial and not impactful. So it is also about the narrative you give, how do you impact, how do you measure and how do you document and arrange. I think the next panel will be really in trouble to just define, but hopefully really helpful, not just to listen how we can solve these things, but to listen we were not alone in the, you know, difficulty of the challenge. I completely agree with you. I think I really think and I also think as from like from funders perspective. I think that's something where we where we need to concentrate that it needs more time that artists also need time in their projects to to research these new tools and new new formats and that's something that has to be for through when thinking of financing projects. Yeah, I think that it's we need to treat the space as just a parallel space so we need all kinds of skills depending on what you want to do. For example, my, my uncle who is a cancer specialist in Damascus here is for his daughter who is also you know she has the same specialization in New York. Here is the autopsy, biopsies are something so here is for it while in Damascus they open cameras and they read so I think that when it comes to skills there's that depending on what we're going to do online. And of course we need then the basic skills to be able to access. But it all starts also with, I believe great awareness, we need to be aware about our responsibility of being in that place because it is a public space. There are children, and there, there's a lot of abuse, and there's, I mean, a lot of really bad things so I believe that all starts with that equipping ourselves with enough awareness on to be able to juggle the, the place without. Without to, you know, either putting other people in danger or putting ourselves in danger, I think that's the first really basic layer and then skills it depends on what you want to do and how are we going to use it. I think we have to wrap up finally this first session and panel. I wanted really to thank you Petra and Alma for the deep stories and the reflection you share and also the honesty of saying with humbleness what we have to do but also the generosity of the reality of the example. And I really thank you for being with us physically and the digital presence in absence and again to the on the move and. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.