 Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's coverage of Cisco Live here in Las Vegas, the Mandalay Bay. It's theCUBE's exclusive coverage right at the pop-up cube. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Dave Vellante. 13 years covering Cisco. We were there at the beginning at CloudNative.com and so much is going on in networking, the developers and CloudNative, Cloud Computing, On-Premise, networking all coming together at Cisco with the big platforms, DJ Penn. DJI Penn Day, Senior Vice President of Outshift by Cisco. We're going to get to what that is, but that was formerly the Emerging Technology Group, which had all the great cool stuff. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. Great to see you. Keep alumni like that. Six time on theCUBE. Many times, yeah. I've been there for a long time on theCUBE at KubeCons. But this is the first time. The other cube. The other cube, yeah, that's right. I remember back in the day when OpenStack was big, Lou Tucker and I were talking about, this Kubernetes thing could be really compelling and Kubernetes just, that paper was emerging and that really kind of brought together and the containers thing got refactored so DEMs are still popular. Now you've got virtual machines, containers. It's created a tsunami of new apps, massive momentum. It is the next big thing. What's going on? Because now the complexity is increased. The theme here is simplify the complexity. Tell us what's going on with your Devarpment. Yeah, so first of all, Outshift. So we just rebranded and we were emerging tech and incubation. The charter has not changed. The mission has not changed. The mission is to take Cisco into new markets. So build new businesses that take Cisco into new markets and let's us talk to new user and buyer personas. So personas that may or may not be that familiar with Cisco and its product space. So we are still on the same mission, but we are serious. We are launching our first product, Penoptica, which we'll talk about a little bit. But if you think about all of the products that we are building, it's in different spaces, different markets, different personas. So we wanted to brand ourselves differently because we're also self-contained. So we're building new businesses, which means product engineering, marketing, SDRs, BizDev, customer success, all of the functions that you would need for a startup to be successful, sit inside of Outshift. So just to clarify, Outshift is a part of Cisco that they're behind, they're serious about. It's not just the closet to throw all the projects in. It's not the iron to misfit toys. Well, kind of is. But it's a place that you're going to build new technologies or bring it from the outside in or is it inside out? Can you explain the philosophy real quick? So there is, I mean, we were emerging tech and incubation. The stress was on incubation, which means we are incubating businesses. But emerging tech plays a critical role in incubating new businesses as well. So it's not in the absence of technology. So we are bringing technologies to solve customer problems in new spaces. Now innovation happens everywhere in Cisco. Innovation is happening in networking, in security, in observability, in collab. So we are also innovating, but we just want to go after new market. So you're the test kitchen. We're the test kitchen, but we want to drive product market. That's right. So innovations also occurs at the business model. How much of that sort of gets into that incubation engine? Oh, that's a great question because I can write all the code I want, but if I'm not reaching the right buyer, in the right manner, it's all useless. So we are actually innovating on the go-to-market as well. Cisco is really well known for its top-down enterprise motion. It's great to sit within Cisco and take these things out of market using that top-down motion. But if you think about where the world is headed, and if you think about cloud-nated developers and everything that you were mentioning, John, it's like they want to try stuff out first. I mean, they are like I am when we talk about car salespeople. It's like, I don't want to talk to a salesperson till I know what that car really does for me. So I want to try an open source. I want to try free offers. If I'm comfortable, I'll maybe buy it for a certain amount of scale. If a lot of developers start using it, then maybe the enterprise comes in and says, we need a procurement to step in and go through an enterprise sales motion. By the way, that same trend's happening in commercial side, where people are nurturing themselves to a buyer in their communities and their peers, not some webinar or some lead-gen machine. So the entire product-led growth, we are pushing that crazy end. So just to get my arms around this, so it's internal to Cisco, so it's funded by Cisco for Cisco, not like a venture bolt-on fund, but it's pure Cisco. It's pure Cisco. We are like an internal incubator for Cisco. Funded by Cisco. All right, let's get into some of the action, because we've been following this. So you guys at KubeCon, great booth. So Gary there in the team, great, was packed, 10,000 people in Amsterdam. So Europe and the US is going to probably be sold out too. Huge developer interest in open source and Cisco's activity. What's the big attraction? Take us through, what's the draw? What do you guys got out there? Yeah, so we've been pushing open source for a while. And you know this, we've been at pretty much every KubeCon, not pretty much every KubeCon since the beginning. And over the past few years, we've been pushing open source in the areas of discoverability, connectivity, and security, and observability of modern applications. And three KubeCon's in a row, we've been pushing security projects. So we started with API Clarity, which is allowing you to secure APIs. Then we pushed Kube Clarity, which allows you to secure containers. And just in Amsterdam, we pushed VM Clarity, which is allowing you to secure virtual machines. So it does scanning, it does API, zombie API and shadow API observability. It does scanning of containers as well as VMs. And it brings it to a normalized platform under the banner of open clarity, where you can look at all of these things together in a holistic manner. So now the story is falling into place. Do you think about the security problem as, okay, here's a problem, we're going to go fill a gap, which is kind of how the security business works. Or are you thinking about it as, security's a do-over, something we say often on the Kube. But we have to completely rethink how we approach security. So, to us in Outshift, it's like you are looking at a world where every modern application is a disintegration of services brought together. So you have all of these assets, whether they are software assets that you develop, the software assets that you're pulling from public cloud, open source, 70% or more of every package or SaaS is open source. Or APIs from SaaS providers increasingly, you're consuming services as APIs from third parties. You bring all of these things together and you build your modern application. In this kind of a distributed environment, how do you ensure security? And so to us, the only way of doing it is to look at securing how you build your application, securing what you've built, and securing where you run them, the entire life cycle. So how you build your application? API security, software bill of materials. What you've built, serverless containers, VMs, doesn't matter what technology. That's what you've built, where you run it. AWS, GCP, Identities, who can access what? Is your resources configured properly? That entire life cycle from develop time to run time is what we're trying to solve for and we're trying to bring it across together with this notion of attack parts. Because if you think about attackers, they don't give a shit where what is vulnerable, whether it's APIs or serverless, they just want to find the weakness. They want to find the hole, right? Where it sits, which persona, which team, who cares? So attack parts allow you to visualize that prioritize that, bring context, and then solve for the vulnerabilities that matter. Now is all your projects open source or something in Cisco? Because Panoptica is the new project. That's the one that's, it feels like full stack observability a bit. You're doing a lot in there. Containers, is that fitting in with some of the observability we're hearing today? Or is it separate? So Panoptica is a standalone application, cloud native application security product. So it does everything from how, what, where in the application security space with the context and prioritization of attack parts. Now Panoptica is also tackling runtime security, deploy time security as well as develop time security. Because again, it needs to be end to end. You can't just look at runtime and forget about the developers. That's where the friction is. You can't just start at develop time as some of our competitors do and forget about the runtime because things change all the time. So you need to tie these things together. It's a continuous DevSecOps environment. So Panoptica tackles all of that from the IDE to the CI CD pipeline like Jenkins to runtime. Now, there are natural integrations here. Like you said, the integrations with observability because if you're observing events during runtime, you can secure them. So we are integrating Panoptica with our full stack observability stack. There are integrations with a security story because you're looking at application security but these things run on an infra network. You need to secure the network. These things are accessed by users. You need to have a comprehensive story from users to applications and app to app. So the integrations that we're doing with Panoptica on the observability side as well as the security side. We were talking with Liz and the team yesterday, J2 and Jonathan, and I was saying, we talk to your customers a lot and there's two types of customers that Cisco has. The ones who just buy SaaS, they're enterprise customers. I buy SaaS apps and I run them on Cisco. And then there's ones who are like, hey, I'm going to build my own stuff and I'm going to put it together and I'm going to run it on Cisco. The ones that are buying the SaaS apps, they're kind of not ready for cloud native and that's clear. It's not a big deal, it's not, that's what they are. That's an area that's hard right now. It's not, it's moving fast. The ones that are rolling their own, they want integration, they want to have it tight. So that's where I can see that traction right away. What's the next step to make it so easy for the customers that are buying SaaS, lock down the network? So there- Are you agree with that or not? No, it's fine, I do. And I think one of the challenges of an application security like Panoptica is there are so many personas involved in their entire life cycle. You go from developers who are looking at how you build the app, you're looking at SREs and cloud platform engineers who are like, what is being built so well as containers and so on. And you're looking at SecOps, they're looking at cloud resources and identities and who has access to what. And so what you just described to me are the two ends of the spectrum. And people want to consume Panoptica and can consume Panoptica as integrated in their IDEs, as integrated in their CI CD pipeline. That's the developer crowd, that's the crowd that pulls in things, does their own thing. And then there are people who want to just deploy things and make sure that it's rock solid. And that's the CSPM, the cloud security posture management. Dave, that's why I think the CNCF is so popular right now because the hottest thing is managed services because they have to put that layer in there to bring customers hardened product. That to me I think is a big wave. Where are the out shift brains geographically? You got people like all over the world, some Israel, the Israelis, they think things differently. You got some of those in your team, diversity. What's the makeup of out shift? So just like the problems we tackle of modern distributed applications from very diverse capabilities, we are one of those. So out shift is located across the globe. Of course Israel is there, Paris is there, Budapest is there. All across Europe, all across the US, highly diverse crowd. You can go to outshift.com, you can see some of our team members, very diverse set of opinions. There was a kinds of problems that we're trying to solve. Do not just end with cloud native. We are looking at cloud native security and connectivity. We are looking at quantum. We are looking at generative AI. We are looking at as native, the diversity of problems is the diversity of the team. What about blockchain? We stick a fork in that? Are we done with blockchain or is it just? It's not as hard right now as it used to be, is it? I say I was never really that thrilled about blockchain. I was always high on crypto, but that's, you know, we'll see where that goes. Decentralized architecture is viable, emerging technology. I mean, it's a matter of time. It's going through a nuclear cleansing. It's a way you architect. So is cloud native a product? Or is cloud native a paradigm? I think decentralized applications is not a product. That's why we've had problems with it. It's a paradigm. So the way you would build the next Twitter would be through a decentralized paradigm. VJ, we've got a couple of minutes left. I want to make sure we get a plug. We really believe what you're doing is amazing work. You guys don't get enough credit in the industry in my opinion, you're out there. In fact, you guys were the first sponsor for theCUBE at the pre-KubeCon that became the first KubeCon and we want to acknowledge that too. But this is a massive wave coming in. Look at the AI movement with LLMs and foundation models. You're seeing open sources all of a sudden driving, massive traction, massive change. Developers are driving the standards. This is super important for Cisco and it's super important for the go-to-markets that are also accelerating. The time product market fits happening faster and Cisco has scale. So what I'm seeing here is that you got this group here. When something pops, it goes into the Cisco and goes out and you bring it together. Could you share that vision? What does this mean? Take it into explain the mission, what you're working on and what you're looking to do. Yeah, so that's absolutely right. So we are here to think outside the box, to bend the rules, not break them. That's reflected in our logo as well. If you think about the logo, it's basically the Cisco bridge that has been bent to be a spark of innovation. And so that's the logo. So we are looking at problem statements, working deeply with customers. We have a large reach to our customers to solve real problems, but we are allowed to pivot. We are allowed to experiment. We are allowed to change the product technology, innovate in that, innovate and go-to-market, try a product like growth, and then scale it out with the rest of Cisco. So we like to use this term called product-like sales. So you let things resonate, become product market, get product market fit. But then funnel it back to the sales team, because that's how you get scale. Make it go sell it and run like the wind. Are you bumping into space tech at all? Does Cisco have a role there, or does Outshift have a role there? Maybe someday we'll connect Mars to planet Earth, but not today. B.J., I love the entrepreneurial philosophy. I love the agility. I love the fact that open source is now on its next generation of massive scale, continues to grow. I mean, open source is now the software industry. It's not just one group. It's mainstream, global. A lot of opportunities. Thanks for coming on theCUBE and taking the time. And thanks for your continued support with theCUBE and we'd love your mission. Absolutely, thank you. All right, theCUBE, we're open source content. We bring you for free. The best people get their minds out on the camera, sharing their perspectives. It's all coming to emerging technologies, incubating entrepreneurship with customers and employees and the big companies here at Cisco Live. We'll be back with more of this survey. So I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. You're watching theCUBE.