 Hello and welcome. Bonjour mes amis. Thank you for joining us for our program online at Mechanics Institute with Mark Petitjean, author of Back to Japan, The Life and Art of Master Kimono Painter, Kinehiko Moraguchi. I'm Laura Shepherd, Director of Events at the Mechanics Institute. Before we begin, I'd like to give out a special thanks to Alice McCromb Program's Manager at the American Library in Paris, Sophie Aldrich and Shirley Juster of the Textile Arts Council of the San Francisco Fine Arts Museums, and Terrence Galunter of Paris Insiders for promoting our program. Also, we are pleased to welcome back well-known Bay Area poet, playwright and translator, Zach Rogau, who has graciously joined us as an interpreter, and also to translator Cynthia Whitehead, who will be assisting with interpretation as well. If you're new to Mechanics Institute, we were founded in 1854, and we're one of San Francisco's most vital literary and cultural centers in the heart of the city. We feature a general interest library, an international chess club, ongoing author and literary programs, and our Friday night cinema-lit film series, so please visit our website. Also, the library is open five days a week, and we are COVID-safe, so please come down and join us there as well. After our conversation, we will have a Q&A with you, our audience. And if you'd like to purchase a book back to Japan, please go to alexanderbook.com. Now I'd like to introduce our guest. Mark Petitgin offers an intimate portrait of one of Japan's most iconic artists, master kimono painter and living national treasure, Kunihiko Moriguchi. Moriguchi, known for innovating the craft of usem, the 17th century resist dye method, through his visionary arrangement of abstracts, abstraction in patterns, understands that the centuries old kimono is not to be just an object to wear, but also a canvas to create on. As Moriguchi stated, we have to answer the challenge of modernity. What is a kimono? Or what will it become once it ceases to be a thing worn? A Petitgin who formed a close friendship with Moriguchi while making a documentary film, Treasure Vivon, Living Treasure, is uniquely suited to tell the story of this extraordinary artisan and his creative evolution. Moriguchi's works are also found in museums around the world. And just a little more about Mark, he is a writer, filmmaker and photographer. He is also the author of The Harch, Frida Kahlo in Paris. In addition to his film, Living Treasure, he has also produced documentaries, including from Hiroshima to Fukushima on Dr. Shontaro Hido, who is a survivor of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima. And also, Jean Grise, on the research he did about the life of his father, Michel Petitgin, who was an amour of Frida Kahlo. So please welcome Mark Petitgin from Paris. We're so pleased to have you. And I have to say that both this book is just an exquisitely written book and his film is also equally as beautiful. And I do hope that everyone here gets a chance to purchase a book and also to see his film. So Mark, I have to start out with asking you, how did you become so immersed in Japanese culture and also with Kinigiko Moriguchi? It seems like you've had a long relationship with Japanese culture. Please tell us about that. First of all, I want to thank you for inviting me. It's very pleasant to be here with you in San Francisco. Here in Paris it's very cold. And I imagine you have a better weather. So in fact, I started to go to Japan to shoot the film on Dr. Hida. And after the film took a long time, because it was very complex, I had to found archives in the States from the different things, long things to tell. We're not going to do it now. But at the end, I saw that I didn't know, I knew nothing. I discovered nothing about Japan because it was only dealing with atomic bomb problems. And it's very important. But Japan was not really the subject matter of my films and my work. So in fact, I went to Japan again for another film about what is called the Fritters. They are the young, poor people who have no education. And they are called the employé jetable. Disposable. Employee. Yeah, because they work, you know, one hour here, one hour here, there and then they don't learn anything and they just have not enough money to live. And so a friend of mine said, oh, you should go and see the best friend is like my brother. He's a Koniko Moriguchi living in Kyoto. So I said, okay, because this guy called the brother of Moriguchi, in fact, was a French person where when the Koniko was in Paris, he met Balthus, the painter. And Balthus went to a place because he had no place to go, where he stayed for a while. And then this was the house of the guy Tom Pico, who was the right hand, with the head of literature and art for André Malraux was the minister, the minister of the culture. And so, and so then he said, the family of Pico said, okay, Moriguchi, you should stay here was 20, 22 years old, you can stay here and sleep at the house. And then he met Pierre André, who is the friend of the same age of Moriguchi and this person I was connected with my family with Pierre André. And so, when I met Moriguchi, it was a very close relation because I was very close with Pierre André and he was very close with Pierre André so I met him and he said, okay, we're friends already. And so that's how I started. And just when I met him, I said, this guy is great. I really should make once a film about him. And at once, for the first time, then maybe discover the reality of the Japanese culture because the poor workers, the Hiroshima bomb, it's okay, it's interesting. Still, it's not really what I was interested in in Japan during the first time because it was really true film that I discovered the country and the food. Also, were you familiar with Kuni's father, Keiko, who is also who also became a living national treasure? And also, were you familiar at all with the art of usem? No, I never met Kako. He was dead when I met Kuni. But no, to tell you the truth, I was not really familiar with what we call artisanal. What do you call artisanal? People or the craft? Craft, yeah. I don't know why, but it was really not what I, I made several films on art, but it was Renzo Piano, you know, this kind of, since César, the artist, the French artist. I was not dealing really with the craft thing. For me, it was like a minor activity. I know I was wrong. I discovered that making this film and writing the book, but at the time when I met him, it was really his personality that interested me. Yes. It seems like Kuni had a very, very strong personality. I mean, he, in your book, you describe how he wanted to really escape, you know, his very traditional, almost feudalistic family, with his father being this great usem painter. And that everything in the world of the apprentice was so regimented. And also, he really had this passion to be his own artist. And so he was passionate about going to Paris to study at the, like, called des Arts Décoratifs. And can you, can you tell us about, you know, how, how he was able to get to Paris? Yeah. In fact, you know, he was, first of all, he was born just during the war. So it was, the war was very, after war, was a very difficult period for Japanese people. They had no money. It was very heavy. And so he was living in a, in a district of the craft activity was in Kyoto, but then it was the feudal practice, you know, a lot of assistants were working for nothing. They were sleeping on the, the atelier. And, and, you know, it was really, you know, the most, they were, when you were the younger, who arrived at the last time was very badly treated, compared to the one was at the head. And he was like this, and he had act 10 or 20 sometimes assistants. And so Kuni was really shocked that this, these people were not well treated treated like in the other families of craft painters or whatever. So he had the idea that his father should change the way he was doing, but the father was really strict and didn't want to, was not even interested in changing whatever. So Kuni decided to, to learn another language, to be able to go somewhere and, and, and get, how am I going to say it, to discover himself and become an artist in, in another country because he thought in Japan it was not possible because of his father, the tradition. Open up or develop. Open up. Yes. Yes, it exists for himself, you know, more than in the, in the regiment attitude of the, of the family. And so he went to the Institut Français, and he tried to learn French and he found a great teacher who really liked him and helped him to get a grant to go study art in France at the Ecole des Arts Décoratifs. And then that's what he did. And it's really changed his life in a wonderful way. Also because he was, he has such a strong desire to discover another, another culture and other language, other people that he really found it. Also Mark, you know, when it is a very interesting story about how he first met Balthus, working on that as a, almost like a consultant in that exhibition. And then he finally meets Balthus by, because Balthus was in charge of installing that exhibition. Can you tell how they met? And, and what, what, what transpired after that first meeting? Yeah, it was the way Kuni tells the story. It's very funny, you know, because, so he was in the Petit Palais in Paris. It's a nice place. And it was an exhibition that André Manorot wanted to, to have. So he asked Balthus to go choose pieces of art in Japan, traditional pieces. So Balthus organized this. And then the people who came from, from museum, Japanese museums, who came in the same boat that Kuni to install the exhibition. He couldn't speak French. He had a very bad feeling with the French workers. He couldn't communicate really. And so Kuni in French perfectly helped them. And then suddenly he saw a guy, you know, with a white pants talking to the, to the workers and he was telling them, no, you should put that here. And then Kuni saw that and he arrived and he was very young. He was 20, 20, 20, I think. And he said, no, sir, it's not possible. You cannot do that in Japan. You cannot, you have to put it at one meter and 20 centimeters, otherwise it doesn't mean a thing. Or I think Balthus wanted to put a lot of things on the wall. And he was not happy with this, Kuni. So he explained. And I just said, okay, okay, listen, I go change myself. I have to meet in a restaurant in Saint-Germain-des-Prés. I have to talk to him. And then he became friends until the death of Balthus. Really, they liked each other a lot. And then there is a following of that story. Also, it seems that Balthus, really, he embraced Kuni and also was able to introduce him to the other artists, Max Ernst, and all these various artists that were in Paris at that time, Chagall and the Diocometti brothers. Can you talk about the other artists that he came in contact with just in all of these social situations, the parties, the salons, and also through his studies? You know, the key was this Gaétan-Picou family, because they were connected to all the artists and intellectuals in France at the moment, and maybe in the world also. So when he was really put in contact with all these people, it was easy to meet whoever was there. He went to a lot of dinner parties, a lot of exhibition openings, a lot of things. But also he was quite shy, he was not jumping to people saying, oh, no, no, he was really observing, he was from what he told me. So there is this person, Carmen Baron, who had a salon where people like to come and visit and meet and talk with these artists that they probably met them there. So, but what is very strange, in fact, is that he had like two lives. One was the Ecole des Arts des Coartifs, where he was with people of his age. And then all the friends that I met after, they said, oh, he's very serious, he works a lot. He doesn't go out, nothing, but in fact, he was having a double life, spending a lot of time with all these people and having a great life, really, because he went to different places. And he was open and he was happy. In the film, you already see it, his face is so open, so nice, really. You can imagine that he shone everybody. You know, he came to Paris at a very, you know, very seminal time in terms of art. Even from the beautiful book cover, you can see that when you describe about the main influence of optical art. And you can also see that influence in all the different patterns of his work. Can you talk about the art influences, including optical art in his construction of the kimono? Well, I think this is really what was taught at the Ecole des Arts des Coartifs at the time. It was from the Bauhaus to the optical thing, you know, it was really the vocabulary of the designers, more and also the graphic designers that were really into that work. So I think it was into that. And in fact, it was very clever. Also, I think he had like intuition that if he goes in this direction, it's going to be far from the Japanese cultural tradition. And that's what he wanted. So, for me, it's more that. But after when he comes back to Japan, we talk about this later. We'll understand more about this. Yes, but what's so amazing is that, you know, he was in Paris for three years, but he wanted to stay. But Bauhaus really influenced his decision to return to Japan. This is such a turning point in his life. Can you talk about what Bauhaus had said to him in terms of what he must do for his artistic expression? I was really shocked. No, me also, I was really worried, in fact, because So in fact, at the end of the three years, he had the exam of the end of the study, and he got a very good, it was very well considered by the teachers and everything. So he could really do whatever he wanted. He could go into any graphic design department, office in Paris, even if he could have gone to Switzerland where these people were very good at this time. And he had offers to do that. But to stay, in order to stay longer in France, he had to get like somebody who could, what is it called, to be responsible for him. He had to find somebody who would be responsible in France for the fact that he would stay. Oh, you have a patron? Yes, and he got to get some money and everything. And so everybody said, if you know Balthus, go see him because he's going to help you. He's got money, he's got everything, go see him. So he went to see Balthus, and Balthus said, no. I know your father, I met him, and I think you make a great mistake to stay here because you will be a very bad artist if you stay in France. But if you go back to Japan and you go back and you follow the work of your father, then you will be an incredible artist. So Balthus also was always, you know, into the classical research on paintings and art. And it was really, he was very close to the Japanese way of thinking about just in a way. I see that Balthus said, I'm going to just quote here, he said, Balthus said that Kuni must not stay in Paris. He was afraid he would get lost in contemporary art and become an eternal student. He had to go home. So that is exactly what he does. He goes back in 1966. Yeah, but before he goes back, Balthus was very clever because he said, look, now Balthus, he became the director of the Villa Medicis in Rome, which is the great place where students can be taking charge to stay a year and study in a beautiful place. And so he said, okay, come and see me in Rome, spend your time, rest, do nothing, just enjoy life, be happy. But staying with Balthus, Balthus continued to influence him, but gently in a very slow way. Also, Balthus just married a Japanese woman was almost the same age as Kuni. So it was also easier than for Kuni to share some time and also he understood what Balthus meant when he told him to go back. That's why he did it. He did it and the title of the book because it's a real story. I mean, it's incredible. I was really shocked at the beginning when he told me that I said, no, it's not possible. And, you know, at the same time, the mother also of Kuni organized a wedding with somebody they met. And so he had to go back also to get married with somebody he never met. So it was really very violent because Kuni, I think he had girlfriends here, it was a good time and suddenly getting married with somebody he never met. It was very strange. But he did it. So in this in the next chapter of his life, can you tell us about joining how he joined his father's workshop and how he reacted to being in this traditional lifestyle. And also that he was considered to be a successor of his father and the tension of that new role. Well, when he arrived first of all, you know, he had in you why his father was so good, you know, it's qualities you cannot learn when you're the age of Kuni, you know, learn how to work, you do that when you start at 1012. It's okay. And then when you grown up, you can really go very far and you work so Kuni thought he was not you will never be able to do that properly because of that. And then also, as he didn't want didn't want to do the same thing to repeat the same thing as his father was trying to find his way, but the father was been great because he said, Look, you do what you want. I let you do what you want. I give you two people that can help you one for the colors and other for the whatever, you know, and so, but he was he was really ashamed of what he was doing at the beginning so he was trying to hide himself. So people don't see what he was doing. And then after, you know, it was, it was very good that, you know, all these lines. You know, he was practicing that in Paris. One of his friend told me that he put the pencil on the edge of a piece of wood, and he used to go like that in the morning. On the wall, it was trying to, to trace lines parallel lines, you know, it's very difficult when you've got one meter of a thing like this. And so it was very, very good. The practice of drawing a regular geometrical line figures shapes. So you work on that on his side. And then, because the father said, Listen, I'm not, I will not teach you, you have to learn by watching. This is really the transmissions like that. So that's what he did. And then, I don't know if you want to, if you want me to continue, or if you want to go to another question. Yeah, well, I was very moved by what, what Kako said to Cooney in terms of the importance of innovation. He really gave Cooney some freedom. So I think I'll just read this. Yes, it's very nice. Because Cooney has this impression of his father that, that, that he is this traditionalist. So his father hesitated before replying, Have you ever seen the work of my master? I was utterly sincere in my support for him while I worked for him. But then, when I set up my own, I broke away completely from his style, and you must do the same. It's your right. And your duty even. So this is, you know, it's, it's a complete change. A perspective about his father that his father really was an innovator, and he didn't recognize that until his father expressed that to him and giving him his freedom to really be an innovator. And that use them has to evolve. Yes, but then it's really what I learned, which is very important for me, making all this research with Cooney. Is that in fact, tradition, it's not only tradition, tradition has to be as to move. And so if you don't bring something to the tradition at your time, tradition dies. And so tradition is not something dead. That's what I used to think before. But in fact, it's, it's at each period, somebody has to reactivate the tradition with bringing new inventions and positions. That's what he did. But he did it in a way that is incredible because, you know, the father was doing, you know, very abstract or so things with with the branch, the tree branches or whatever. Beautiful traditional subject. But Cooney said, I have to, to be very different. And so as he was in that line geometrical problematic. He decided to bring it into the Kimono was very daring. And he succeeded. That's incredible. You know, he did. The thing was, with the geometrical thing shapes is his idea was that the Kimono was not just a close. It was became a sculpture. When it was war by some by woman. And the woman was moving with his shapes on her. She became a living sculpture that's why he tried to bring. That's nice. Yes, there's a wonderful quote that says, you know, that, that, well, what is the most important part of the Kimono and he said the back, he said what the front is illuminated by the woman's face expression. But it is the back of the Kimono. The most important is that something that that is his opinion or is this something in the tradition of Kimono construction and creation. I think it's really his opinion and in fact he said that at one point that that is something he shared with his father, the love for women. There were really both trying to bring the women with a with a pleasure to the pleasure of wearing and be a beautiful and happy of it. And so, so they were, they were working on the same labor for that. In fact, they just changed the shapes, but you know, also what say the Cooney is that he influences father, and when he began to notice that his father was using some of his inventions. He thought, okay, my father agreed on my work and now he likes what I'm doing, and it's great. And after Cooney also got influenced from his father and used some something when we were talking, sometimes he used to point that it's very nice. This is really so in the in terms of transmission, it's beautiful because really it's an exchange, you know. Yeah, there's there's so much in this book about the significance of the Kimono and also the symbolism of the Kimono and and also Kako also considered him to be just a craftsman. And so there's a wonderful conversation between craft and art. It's a tradition and modern expression. And is there something else you want to share about that in terms of Cooney's work and what you discovered. Well, Cooney decided to be an artist. He wanted that but you know, it's also a different way of thinking from about the cultures, you know, because it's being an artist. It's an individual, lacticic attitude compared to the art in Japanese culture, where art belongs to everybody, it's not. Somebody makes art has to be very discreet and work in a context that is a little difficult. But also always in relation with people but an artist in Europe or here in the States, it's a new way to promote to completely new ideas, values or whatever. Well, the father was not like that and the father didn't consider himself as an artist so that's also and also that's why I think the father was very interested because he had discussions about the work of Kako. The way Cooney learned it in France, it's like you study art, you know, we can make critique in this way, structures like this, like that. The father was not at all in that world, he was really doing something, inspiration, intimate inspiration, but he couldn't talk about it. So that's he brought that to his father. I also want to discuss your involvement with the family. First of all, when Cooney and Kako got married, they were very young and so they were both joining the family's traditional household at a very young age and if you could talk about his relationship with his wife and also the role of his wife. The first thing I want to say that in order to take to go into the studio of his father to work, Cooney has to accept to leave there because he could not leave somewhere and go with the money work. It's not like this, you're engaged, you're committed to it. I don't know if people understood that you were saying you have to live there if you're part of the studio, everyone lives together in the same building. Yes, yes, yes, you have to do that. So, but he just got married with Kako and Kako, you know, she was young, she was completely, she was brought up in Tokyo with her father who was a dentist or whatever, and she was really into modern life. And so we're going to Kyoto and live in this building with the father and all the workers and things and the Belmere, in Belmere, the godmother, it was quite heavy. And so, in fact Cooney asked her to make a sacrifice and she accepted it. And so she has to wait a long, long time, because I mean the father also was attracted by her somehow, and you know, so it was very complex in everyday life. But she was a great beauty. Yes. Yes, she's incredible, I really love her. And she was, and she really helped him to, first of all, to be in this studio and also she was very generous, you know, helping the mother, the father, and so she got children, but you know what she said, which is very sad, what Cooney said, she's very sad, he said, you know, my mother, I know she always gave bath to my children. I never, she was not letting me do that. It's terrible. You understand? They follow the tradition, the grand mother. I don't know if it's the tradition or what, but she was cut from the, you know, capacity of doing maternal things. And so she was very sad of this and Cooney also, but Cooney, you know, he's like a soldier when you're in that situation, you just do it or you quit. Well, you have the experience of also living with the family and filming the family for, I think it was three months. And so it seemed like Keiko really took care of you and she also has a wonderful sense of humor. So you had to experience, you know, this home life and just tell us about your experience filming with the family. Well, you know, this kind of place, it's not the place where you can make film because it's really, there's a room for each sense. You, there is a, you cannot put a tripod because you're going to break the floor. You cannot move too much because, you know, if you bring dust to the colors and things you destroy the work, you cannot talk, you cannot. You have to be very discreet, but you're a human being, you know, with the equipment. And so, in fact, at the beginning I said to Cooney, do you think are you sure that I can come and spend time with you in this house with everybody. And he said, yes, yes, yes, yes, but yes, but your wife, Keiko is, you know, maybe he's going to be boring for her. No, no, no, I will tell her and she will accept and so she accepted. But after a while, after a month and a half, she was bored and she was not what she said to be bored. It was not against me, particularly. It's just the idea that she could not connect with me in a, in a language that we could share that she was not happy that she couldn't speak French or couldn't speak Japanese. That's what she said, but I understood more than she said she was, it was a bit overwhelming to have me around the corner and sometimes she jokes in the film you see that but I think it was a bit difficult. But for me also, no, because I had to be very, very silent, very, but also the good thing was that sometimes I had to shoot to film very, very small things when he was facing lines. And I had to go very close but I had to take a long lens, a long lens when you have to be very fixed because otherwise if you move then move a lot to the images completely. So as I couldn't, I didn't have a tripod at the beginning so could not even use it. But I was having the camera on my shoulder and then finally I learned how to stop breathing for a long time because when you don't breathe, you don't move. And then, and I noticed that he was doing the same when he was tracing lines and the same, sometimes we were sharing the same what I call the build a bubble of creation somehow. And we were in the same thing and we were breathing at the end of this, this time it was very nice, you know. Very med, almost like a meditation. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, Mark, there's, you know, it's the one of the culminating parts of the book is when you describe this exhibition at the Museum of Modern Art in Shiga, which is featuring both Kako and Kunihiko. It's so powerful. This is after Kako has passed away. Yes. And they bring together the two living treasures, the artwork, the kimonos of both father and son. And can you tell us about the significance of the exhibition and, and the impact it had. First of all, it was a celebration. Kunih wanted to celebrate his father. That's why the, I think maybe the exhibition was organized before Kako died, but a span before but then he had to put it on and after his death. So they decided, he decided to have the kimonos of each on each side of the walls on the, you know, very big room like you. And so they were facing each other like, I don't know, six meters or seven meters between them. But each kimono of Kunih was facing a kimono of his father. And this is very, very nice. And so, when you, when you was like there, you see that in the film, he said, oh, it's incredible. My father is like a big boss and, and I'm like a baby. So I think he really feels it. It's also a little too modest, much too modest. It's really the feeling he wanted to express that his father was really the great one and he was the small son who picked up some of his, the father knowledge. But after, what did you mean about, what did you mean about the consequence? He said, maybe there is a consequence on the, no, and also he said, he said a very nice thing at this exhibition. He said, oh, now, usually, when there's a game you do when you're a child, you took a rope and then you make a little yogurt thing on each side and you can talk to each other. And then he said, it's like one of it, one of them, it doesn't work. So I'm with my roof like this and it's sad because he had the feeling they were connected like this, you know, in terms of like physical, mechanical, you know, it's nice. Yes, they are, they are connected. So, you know, I just wanted to get some description from you about what, what is unique about Cooney's art, what did he achieve? He did some beautiful quotes about his, his working with nature first and then with bringing that into color and form. There's a beautiful quotes in the book, and also just a beautiful descriptions about the art of the kimono. But can you just share any other, other observations about Cooney's achievement in terms of his artistic achievement? Yeah, because for him, when he was drawing like this, these shapes, you know, he didn't see that really, he didn't have this in mind when he was doing this. He had that, for example, he has references of very things from nature, you know, like even trees or the sand in a beach or whatever. The inspiration comes from this, and after it becomes a rhythm, reasons of colors and things, but he always thinks, you know, for example, there is one kimono which has been inspired by the train, the rapid, the fast train, Iraqi, I think, and it's the first very fast train, high-speed train. And so this was the inspiration, the idea that the speed would bring the idea of speed in the structure of the patterns and the colors. So, you know, he's not really into geometric, like a cold thing, it's really the world gets into these shapes. Yes, he talks about everything, his work being a distillation, the distillation of rain or the distillation of winds. He's taking that essence and then finding the color, the form and the color to express it. His work is so dramatic. It is so distinct and so dramatic. I do hope that we get to share, you know, some of the images with our audience, which means everyone has to buy the book. And also, can you tell us about the film and how it was shown, where it was shown, and also if there's a way for people to see your film? Well, the film, in fact, I was there when Earthquake happened in 2011. And so we were together with him when it happened. And then we said, because we really saw that the nuclear plant would explode, so we were very scared, everybody was scared, even in Kyoto. And so we planned to go to the south together. But after a while they said, no, I cannot leave the people here, I've got to stay with them, I'm a Japanese and I need to stay with my people. So we stayed one more week and then we left. That's my daughter want to see. But no, and so we. What was the question. I think we got it. Listen, I think we should open up to some of the questions that are in the audience. Pam, do you want to read out a question. Okay, we have a well Zach actually posted a question. Would you say there is a sense in which Kuni Moriguchi's designs have come full circle in that the French art that influenced Kuni was also influenced by the Japanese men Japanese art. Oh, in French, please. Do you say that Kuni's art in a sense is a circle in the sense that the Japanese has influenced the French art that influenced Kuni's art in its turn. That's for sure. That's a very good, very good remark. I think that's really that. In fact, and I think that Balthus, he was maybe also in this idea, in a sort of intuition about Kuni, which is possible. He's saying that he thinks that it's true that there was a kind of coming full circle in the influence of Japanese art on European art and European art, modern art and influencing Japanese art and this was true also in the art of Balthus and part of what Balthus said to Kuni, I think you were saying. Yes, it has to do with it. Yes, absolutely. Okay, there's another question. Maria asks, what kind of resist did he use? Was it molten wax? And if there's a problem, Zach, or Cynthia? She asks, what kind of elements of resistance did he use? Was it wax? We know. How? How do you say it? Yes, mix. I just don't know. I don't know really the fine parts of the techniques. I don't know, because it's a long time. Maybe I knew that once, but I forgot. Sorry. Well, Susan Selwyn's question is, did he also design Obi to wear with the kimono? No, he was not in charge of that. He had somebody to do it and he doesn't do that. It's another activity. Yes, you know, what is shown in your movie is the exquisite, but also labor intensive process of the resist die, the use end, and all the different steps of creating the kimono from the drawing to the dying to the washing, washing the ink and cutting at the construction. So does anyone buy the kimonos of Kuni? And also how much they cost? How much do they cost? So now it's pretty rare that people buy them for themselves because it's very expensive. But it's women, for example, who work in big companies or become important, you know, like boss, they want to show their power. And now they, sometimes they do that, they buy them. But in fact, you don't buy them. Most of the time, you ask for it, so it's going to be more expensive. But it's also the idea that you trust the artist, you know, the artist will see what is good for you. So it's nice also. But I don't know the price, but it could be very expensive. Of course, when it is gold and things, but it's, I don't know, 10,000 euros smaller. Anna, I would like to know. I'm sorry. No, and so the other thing to help to support the the artistic craftsman is museums or foundations, they buy kimonos. I would like to know the exact title of the film. Trésor vivant. Trésor vivant. Living treasure. And also more. Yes, go ahead. No, no, go ahead. Do we have any other questions? Well, Susan Selwyn has posted a comment. Traditionally, the resist used for us then was made from rice paste, she says, yes. So, yes. Mark, and we'd like to also know about your next artistic journey. What is your next project that you're working on currently. It's a very complicated thing, but I can tell, you know, I have two projects. One is about Fedacalo, but it's a film. And it's about because somebody apparently discovered some unknown documents from her where she apparently if it's the true material. And it's my father withdrawing representing representing my father. So, among that, but I don't know enough now to, to tell you more. And also I'm writing a book about, about Haiti, because when I was student art, I went to Haiti, and I studied a group of peasant artists called Saint Soleil. And I want to, because I have a lot of documentation that I never use a lot of pictures that I want to put together. Keep that. Great. Well, we will look forward to seeing your other works and what, and what about are you working on another book as well. Yes, also a book on Haiti. In fact, I do, I do the, this, yes. The project about the artist's peasant is a book. Great. Do we have any other questions? I do not see any other questions in the, or comments in the, in the chat. Okay, well, then I would like to thank Mark Petitjean for joining us for his program. This book, Back to Japan, is published by Other Press. It is exquisitely written. It is an incredible story. It's a, it's a beautiful expose about art and various artists points of view about art, whether it's the tradition, traditional expression or the modern expression. The tension between the two and how one evolves the other. So, so pleased to, to have this program with you, Mark. And we, we look forward to speaking with you again. I want to thank Zach Rogal for being available for interpreting as well as Cynthia Whitehead. Thank you very much. So we'll, we'll say a merci beaucoup and à bientôt.